Wives Loving Wives

[JordynRose]

You reminded me of this quote I saw not so long ago.

I love this quote, any idea who originated this quote?

It touched my heart.

Thank you

 

[Annabelle1990]

Flip the trope. Suppose you stumbled in on two guys sharing an artificial vagina, or even masturbating together while sharing porn...

Flip the trope. Suppose you stumbled in on two guys sharing an artificial vagina, or even masturbating together while sharing porn...

If I saw two guys watching porn and masturbating I would assume they were turned on my the porn and not by each other. I have always assumed that when guys watch porn together they do this.

 

[Annabelle1990]

No, it isn't bullshit unless you think that somehow being a man means being the things NTH has listed. When they say toxic masculinity, they mean the attributes of being a man that generally are socialized into men growing up or even as an adult. The idea that violence is a solution to things, the attitude that women are less than men (and yes it still exists, and I'll go into that in a bit), that the only emotion it is okay for men to show is anger, ignoring what women say because the only thing that matters what men say. Is this built into men's dna? No, but a lot of these things are things that society and yes, often religion, have drilled into men or shown them. This modern idea of a trad wife (and I am leaving out the D/s types, I am talking for real), the kind of drivel Phyliss Schafly put out in the 70's and 80's, were predicated on men being in charge and being the natural head of the household rather than treating a spouse as a partner. That a guy who takes what he wants is a real man and that a guy who isn't like that is effeminate are real life examples. That men and women both work in most households, yet men still refuse to help around the house, is very real. Likewise with misogyny , where women are looked down upon, seen as being B*** and hos or as a burden on poor suffering guys.

Want real world examples? How about Andrew Tate and all his followers? How about guys who think that date rape is bullshit and if a girl says no, they really are saying yes? Want a prime example? The current president and the way he is with women. If he has women around him, they damn well better be good looking. Calling a woman reporter a pig......his comments about women and how they were there for him to use, his constant threats against people, it is a textbook example of what people mean when they talk about toxic masculinity is. No, it isn't about being ashamed of being a man, it is being proud of being a man who is decent and true to himself, it is about a man who recognizes women are fellow human beings and they have no special right to presume anything about women with getting to know him.

Do I think things have gone to far, when a poor guy is being denigrated as being part of the partiarchy that controls mens lives and other such stuff? Yes, because among other things it automatically assumes the guy is even like that simplly because he is a man, the same way that the toxic masculinity crowd assume things about women simply because they are women.

There are consequences. I saw a thing on you tube where a woman was reacting to another video, where this young woman was complaining they she saw this nice looking guy at the gym, was attracted to him, even made eye contact, but the guy basically didn't interact with her. She was complaining that it was if guys expected her to make the first move, and how she hated it because it was so hard if the guy wasn't interested in her, facing rejection. The woman in the response video basically said something to the tune 'what do you expect?" , with the idea that if a guy went up to a woman he found attractive he would be considered a creep, that women are tired of men hitting on them all the time in inappropriate places. Men are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Funny part is if a guy she wasn't interested in hit on her, she likely would call him a creep.

Please name one of those behaviors women do not do too. The difference is I know that if I hit Mark or Joe, I will not get hit back and society will laugh.

Those behaviors are toxic no matter who does them. Singling out masculinity is an attempt to attack men - and boys - by assuming innate traits rather than specific behaviors are toxic.

 

[Stanfield2025]

If I saw two guys watching porn and masturbating I would assume they were turned on my the porn and not by each other. I have always assumed that when guys watch porn together they do this.

I'm sorry, every time I see this mentioned I can't help but think of The Boys comic and laugh. It was funny as shit there.

 

[Emma_O]

I love this quote, any idea who originated this quote?

It touched my heart.

Thank you

I can’t say for sure. It was from an article I’d read recently. I suppose it was a “quote” of the article’s author. But I copied and saved the text, just because I liked it. When I saw your post/reply, it motivated me to make a “meme” of it.

I keep getting fed these types of articles online:

“Three things people immediately judge you on…”

“Five immediate signs of a passive-aggressive…”

“Eleven traits of an introverted-intuitive…”

Of course, the more I click on them, the more of them the algorithms will feed me. They’re succinct and abbreviated articles. Click bait, that of course comes with advertisements for anything & everything. But I do enjoy reading some of them, and I find them accurate. I think psychology and “affairs of the mind” are fascinating.

 

[TheLobster]

“Three things people immediately judge you on…”

“Five immediate signs of a passive-aggressive…”

“Eleven traits of an introverted-intuitive…”

"And one feature of an INTP,"

"In the land of Myers-Briggs, where shadows lie."

 

[njlauren]

"... when a man cries his heart out, or punches a wall, or goes into a week long gloom after a setback ..."

LOL. Where do I begin to address how women respond to such behaviors?

If I cried in front of my wife, she'd sarcastically say "SORRY, if I hurt your feelings!" (And yes, it would drip with sarcasm!) Other women I know would just roll their eyes in disbelief and walk away.

When it comes to punching a wall, ... LOL!!!??? REALLY? That's INTIMIDATION!!!! (Another toxic masculine trait., so, damned again!)

And going into a week-long gloom after a setback? W.T.F.? Give up a week of my life for what? My wife would say "Grow UP!"



Maybe it's just me, and the wife I chose, but we're BOTH of the attitude that "Sticks and stone may break my bones, but names can never hurt me!" "Grow up!" "Tomorrow's another day." "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger!", etc! Those were the truisms we both grew up to, and today's sensitively B.S. offends her too.

My wife's attitude at work and in any social situation with "male toxicity" or attempts at male dominance is to say "Bring it on, asshole! You've met your match with ME, and I'll crush you!" (Note: she's NOT a big woman, and it's just her attitude men are afraid of!)

She doesn't tolerate the weak feminists around her at work, saying "When they complain to me about how Marcel treats them, it disgusts me, because I just put him in his place!"

That's why I love her!! She's a true PEER! But we're old, and the young still have much to learn.

EDIT: If you truly believe that "toxic men" were raised that way, then weak women were also raised by their own parents! Take a look in the mirror and then look at your own parents for who to blame.

I am old too and while I admire your wife's balls, she also is part of the problem. The culture of not admitting you are hurting, pull yourselves up by your bootstraps, a real man doesn't show emotion( except anger ) is why men end up lashing out and why the suicide rate for men is soaring .

There is a difference between someone whining about micro aggressions and the like an real issues. That attitude of what doesn't kill me makes me stronger is what underlies the ppl who think bullying is part of life.

And yes, if a husband acts out, punches the wall,screams and yells it is intimidation, I grew up with that and that is not masculinity, that is an emotionally immature person who doesn't know how to be a man,that is a man child. Just take a look at Trump's behavior, that is a warped child, not an adult.

There is a line between acceptable and unacceptable behavior for men and women. Your wife's attitude is basically if something happens to you it is your fault. Maybe your wife has the position where she can tell marcel to fuck off and die, a woman or even a man in a position of little power can't do that.

I don't like victimhood, I dont like whining about things, but I also recognize where lines lie with things.

And yes,toxic masculinity is involved with woman on man violence. Men kind of like women who are raped are often ashamed to admit what happened, men in this case because ' what kind of man let's a woman beat him?' ( well,for one thing, boys were generally taught it is wrong to hurt a woman, and have a hard time defending themselves ) and if they report it cops and das treat it as a joke. Btw they do that with woman on woman domestic violence, they laugh at it.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

"And one feature of an INTP,"

"In the land of Myers-Briggs, where shadows lie."

I'm often amazed that people still fall for all that Myers-Briggs nonsense.
What's the old saying, its easier to fool someone than to convince them they've been fooled.

 

[Stanfield2025]

I'm often amazed that people still fall for all that Myers-Briggs nonsense.
What's the old saying, its easier to fool someone than to convince them they've been fooled.

Is that the Enneagram stuff?

 

[Lifestyle66]

... The culture of not admitting you are hurting, pull yourselves up by your bootstraps, a real man doesn't show emotion( except anger ) is why men end up lashing out and why the suicide rate for men is soaring .

IF the suicide rate for men is soaring,
THEN it may be due to other causes, such as the way they were raised differently than past generations?

Who are the ones committing suicide? The ones who were forced to "Get the fuck over it and move along." Or could it be the ones who were raised "It's not your fault, you're a winner, too!"

When it becomes clear that they are not winners, and that it is their fault, what do they have to fall back on?


IMO, many of the parenting "experts" pushed advice for changing cultures, without thinking through the consequences of what they were taking away.

And read my later post above.
It's not my wife having the "balls" to stand up to men at the own game. She's the bitch who will ream them a new asshole if they dare to treat her with anything but the respect she feels she deserves as a woman!

 

[njlauren]

You're moving the goal posts here. Before, you were saying it was "just women born before 1970." Now, it's, "okay, and these women, too, but..." ah... #NotAllWomen? Maybe?

Are they responsible for men's behavior? No. Does their behavior sometimes influence that behavior? Yes. Just like, to return to Loving Wives, qhile it is the spouse who cheats that's responsible for that cheating, the jilted spouse can still have made the marriage so unpleasant that cheating seemed like an attractive option. Not that spouse's fault that their wife/husband cheated, but they are responsible for their own behavior, too, and how that can affect the spouse's dedication to them.


We are the same species, yes, but we can still experience vastly different lives. And, yes, as an overall measure, men have it easier than women; however, pretending that men's problems don't exist, or that they're lesser in nature where they do exist, is... I mean, it's just wrong. Like from a moral standpoint, telling men, "your problems don't really exist; and if they do, they're not as important as women's; and if they are, they're your fault because of the patriarchy; and if they're not, you still need to deal with them and not bother us about it," is just an absolute non-starter.

Having been on both sides of the street so to speak saying men have it easier is problematic . It doesn't mean that I don't think misogyny and what women face isn't real, that there is still gender bias, but I think saying men have it easier is downplaying what men gave. Men are still trapped in a world that still expects a lot more of them on some things than women. Men are still supposed to be strong and bear the burden , not admit they are in pain, there is still the huge expectation they be the breadwinner so many years after economic reality hit ; and there have been recent studies that show that not only do men lose self esteem if their mate makes more money ( it is where loving wives stories are true to life), sadly lot of women feel the same way. Even though like 85% of households both mom and dad work outside the home, the expectation is the husband should make more.

The world has shifted and the problem is we have a half assed mess because we have a world with new rules and old attitudes. Young women complain men no longer seem willing to pursue them, yet on the other hand the rules have changed where men pursuing a woman can be considered creepy,so men don't know what to do. Men are supposed to be emotionally open ,yet when they are they can be denigrated by other men and yes, by more than a few women,as whiners. It is kind of my analagous to where working wives complain they now work full.time , yet at home they are doing all the household stuff as if they were SAHM ( note, when women were/ are SAHM, they still should not be responsible for all of the household stuff, they have a full time job with young kids

 

[Stanfield2025]

It's not my wife having the "balls" to stand up to men at the own game. She's the bitch who will ream them a new asshole if they dare to treat her with anything but the respect she feels she deserves as a woman!

Just curious, does your wife ever get tired at having to carry herself that way?

 

[Lifestyle66]

Just curious, does your wife ever get tired at having to carry herself that way?

You're supposed to be focused on toxic masculinity, not my wife's posture.

 

[njlauren]

IF the suicide rate for men is soaring,
THEN it may be due to other causes, such as the way they were raised differently than past generations?

Who are the ones committing suicide? The ones who were forced to "Get the fuck over it and move along." Or could it be the ones who were raised "It's not your fault, you're a winner, too!"

When it becomes clear that they are not winners, and that it is their fault, what do they have to fall back on?


IMO, many of the parenting "experts" pushed advice for changing cultures, without thinking through the consequences of what they were taking away.

And read my later post above.
It's not my wife having the "balls" to stand up to men at the own game. She's the bitch who will ream them a new asshole if they dare to treat her with anything but the respect she feels she deserves as a woman!

The ones committing suicide go across the spectrum,all ages, all economic levels. Your words blaming parenting culture were like the idiots on the right who blamed Dr. spock for the way baby boomers were raised for the 60s revolt and so forth...

The reason is because society has changed, economics have changed and what men relied on in the past isn't there any more. Men can no longer count on being a man will get them what they once could get easily. You could get a high school degree and get a good paying job,that is gone. Men could assume that their word as a man would weigh more heavily than a woman's would. And to be blunt a lot of what men were taught growing up wasn't all that great and ur conflicts with reality..among those is the idea a man pulls themselves up by their bootstraps,that you just tough it through,that depression was a weakness. Btw it wasn't so great back in the day, in the so called glory years, lot of men self med by drinking, or basically were self destructive. One good thing is young people are not drinking, the liquor industry is going nuts.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

You're supposed to be focused on toxic masculinity, not my wife's posture.

Strange how the people who argue against gender roles are bothered by your wife not adhering to the stereotype.

 

[Lifestyle66]

... You could get a high school degree and get a good paying job,that is gone.

You're making gross assumptions there, just as many journalists do.

I came from a large extended family, and I've seen all type among my NUMEROUS aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces, and nephews. Some are successful, and others derelicts. At least one O.D.ed on drugs. Another has been in and out of the revolving prison doors so many times, that he's better off inside. A few are on welfare, with at least one certifiably insane (if there were such institutions anymore.) And, yes, we have the LGBTQIA+ representatives among them with gays, lesbians, (only 1 trans), some successful and others just as bad as the rest of the shitshow.

But several have nothing more than high school diplomas and are doing quite well with good paying jobs. And one recent college grad with a four-year degree is not employed in her field of study, but is making a good living in her job and is quite happy living on her own. Her sister only has a high school diploma and is equally happily employed!

The idea of needing a college degree to get ahead is pushed by the universities, because they NEED more students to pay them for those degrees in their pyramid scheme.


Today's depression in many people come from the constant push by people like you that they should expect and deserve MORE! A high school degree is "not good enough" according to you, and you're pushing them into debt to work harder for something which may have no value! What happens when they finally realize they can't pay those debts?

Blame the counselors and people like you who told them they were worthless without those degrees!

 

[Stanfield2025]

You're supposed to be focused on toxic masculinity, not my wife's posture.

Is it possible for you to engage with any discussion in good faith? Even a little bit?

 

[LargoKitt]

My wife doesn't consider her actions as "playing the boy's club," she just won't ALLOW them to mistreat her.

She usually acts very feminine, pausing to wait for me to open her doors, 'pretending' to struggle opening a jar or bottle of wine until I offer to do it for her, holding up her empty wine glass at a party and waiting for me to refill it for her, or expecting me to do the 'manly' chores, ... all while jokingly saying "after all, I'm just a woman." She exploits men.

She's the "take charge" type people often call a "bitch". But when I call her a bitch, she'll softly reply "But I'm YOUR bitch!"

I wrote a story about her, (a caricature): "The Maneater" A Barbie-wife/anti-heroine learned to control men.
Excerpt:
*********************************************************
They turned to look at me, and the one leaning against my car glanced down at the hood of the car realizing it was mine, but not moving. If he had seen a man like my husband come out and walk this way, his type would quickly scurry away, like the rodents they are. But he probably thinks he's going to have some fun against a woman.

Stopping about four feet away from them at the front of my car, I gave him a cold stare and commanded "Get off my car!"

He smirked and chuckled before saying "Huh ... maybe for a blowjob," as if he could intimidate me. He expected to make a woman crawl and ASK him to 'PLEASE would you let me get into my car,' or make some impotent threat. That's what he was really looking for; a reaction, showing he was in control.

Shifting my left foot out firmly into my dominatrix pose, I harshly replied "Well, whip it out and let's see it. I'll suck your cock, ... or bite it off!" I opened my lips to show him as I snapped my front teeth together. "Do you feel LUCKY?" Then I angrily added "... Well, DO you!?" demanding an answer. There was no fear in my voice, only a determined assurance we could do it, but it would be MY choice.
*********************************************************

And yes, we have kids who were brought up to act, not react.

I think you made my point. Your spouse is very good at playing 'the guy game' and maintaining the illusion of a hierarchy (which maintains the hierarchy). A colleague wrote a thesis about 'virile women' who give as good as they get. Not dykes. Women who want tough guys and are willing to be tough to be with them. My problem with this picture? It's an act. And people who fail at playing that game take shit. And the 'winners' say "tough shit, you're a sissy". Trouble is, that kicks a lot of good people to the curb. Some of those people may be your children,

 

[LargoKitt]

Having been on both sides of the street so to speak saying men have it easier is problematic . It doesn't mean that I don't think misogyny and what women face isn't real, that there is still gender bias, but I think saying men have it easier is downplaying what men gave. Men are still trapped in a world that still expects a lot more of them on some things than women. Men are still supposed to be strong and bear the burden , not admit they are in pain, there is still the huge expectation they be the breadwinner so many years after economic reality hit ; and there have been recent studies that show that not only do men lose self esteem if their mate makes more money ( it is where loving wives stories are true to life), sadly lot of women feel the same way. Even though like 85% of households both mom and dad work outside the home, the expectation is the husband should make more.

The world has shifted and the problem is we have a half assed mess because we have a world with new rules and old attitudes. Young women complain men no longer seem willing to pursue them, yet on the other hand the rules have changed where men pursuing a woman can be considered creepy,so men don't know what to do. Men are supposed to be emotionally open ,yet when they are they can be denigrated by other men and yes, by more than a few women,as whiners. It is kind of my analagous to where working wives complain they now work full.time , yet at home they are doing all the household stuff as if they were SAHM ( note, when women were/ are SAHM, they still should not be responsible for all of the household stuff, they have a full time job with young kids

I have an article in progress named "Real Men Don't Squat". It basically champions men who do share the household duties by offering a new paradigm: 'let him own the kitchen'. IOW, men who 'help around the house' are subject to their wives giving their efforts the 'white glove test'. She's The Boss Of The Kitchen. But if he does half the cooking, or cleaning, or laundry it's his kitchen, vacuum cleaner, detergent, too. He gets to have the pot lids where he doesn't have to stoop to get them. Maybe he likes the dishes arranged for convenience and not to show off the pretty stuff when company arrives. Dual jobs, housework and child raising means dual respect on everything and an absolute minimum of 'pulling rank'. Statistically, women are better drivers than men. Does she get to help choose the power tools? Brave new world.

 

[EmilyMiller]

But if he does half the cooking, or cleaning, or laundry it's his kitchen, vacuum cleaner, detergent, too.

We do this. We each have things we can cook when in a hurry and signature dishes for the weekend. It’s nice to cook for someone and nice to be cooked for too. And we clean up our own kitchen messes.

However in one way we are uber-traditional, while I might cook on the BBQ, you need a man to do the fire stuff (or at least that’s what I let him think ). Boys and their toys .

 

[liliput1]

you need a man to do the fire stuff (or at least that’s what I let him think )

There are people I would step in front of a bus for that I wouldn't let take over fire stuff. In fact it's only happened once and it wasn't a partner.

 

[Stanfield2025]

I think you made my point. Your spouse is very good at playing 'the guy game' and maintaining the illusion of a hierarchy (which maintains the hierarchy). A colleague wrote a thesis about 'virile women' who give as good as they get. Not dykes. Women who want tough guys and are willing to be tough to be with them. My problem with this picture? It's an act. And people who fail at playing that game take shit. And the 'winners' say "tough shit, you're a sissy". Trouble is, that kicks a lot of good people to the curb. Some of those people may be your children,

Not to mention some women who play that guy game at work end up being accused of being too loud, not given the benefit of the doubt in certain situations, etc. I've seen some talk about having to shrink in these spaces. I've written a character sort of like this, so it's in my interest to know about this sort of stuff, hence one of my questions earlier.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I think you made my point. Your spouse is very good at playing 'the guy game' and maintaining the illusion of a hierarchy (which maintains the hierarchy). A colleague wrote a thesis about 'virile women' who give as good as they get. Not dykes. Women who want tough guys and are willing to be tough to be with them. My problem with this picture? It's an act. And people who fail at playing that game take shit. And the 'winners' say "tough shit, you're a sissy". Trouble is, that kicks a lot of good people to the curb. Some of those people may be your children,

What utter bullshit.

Can you seriously not comprehend that not all women are the same? That maybe, just maybe it isn't "an act"?
That maybe that's genuinely who she is, and she is comfortable with herself.
You want to conform society to your own preferences and if other people fail at playing, "tough shit, you're a sissy. "


The whole problem with the philosophy you've espoused throughout this thread is that it proceeds from an assumption that the feminine way is correct and proper, and the masculine is flawed and bad. That we just need to force men to act like women and everything would be OK.

Men aren't broken women, boys aren't flawed girls.
You have this Lord of the Flies view of men, and male interactions that are nonsense.
Are you familiar with the actual incident? What really happened when a group of boys got shipwrecked on an island with no adults?
They did just fine. They built a functioning society, divided the work evenly, and worked together. When one of them broke his leg, the others pitched in to take up the slack.
Of course that doesn't fit the caricature of violent nasty boys who need controlling, so we don't talk about it much.