Wives Loving Wives

Consider the source. I think the stats show that women *marry* men who are reliable. If he is also a hottie, great. But she does want to tame him. 'Breast seller' books for women are stories about what they *don't get*. Her hubby is a happy reliable chubby. He fantasy is a lean 'do it and leave it' pirate. She gets to pretend she is the heroine so hot he crumbles to his knees. Mother Nature doesn't care about fidelity. Sure, alpha male wants to keep his harem. But Mom counts on hunky males sneaking in and spreading the diversity.
The people who argue that rape porn is just harmless escapist fantasy are the same ones who claim that the fiction enjoyed by a subset of women allows you to draw deep psychological conclusions about what women want IRL.
 
Curiously, women usually evaluate their 'attractiveness' based on what other women think, even though, traditionally, their ability to attract might be critical to their survival.
This doesn't really surprise me. I could be wrong here, but it seems to me that women are more likely to give women in-depth feedback on attractiveness than men are (generally speaking). But I'm no expert and I'd be happy to hear any counters to that.
 
This doesn't really surprise me. I could be wrong here, but it seems to me that women are more likely to give women in-depth feedback on attractiveness than men are (generally speaking). But I'm no expert and I'd be happy to hear any counters to that.
Women praise and criticize looks for sure. But can you really see a guy going up to a male friend and saying, “You look particularly handsome today.”
 
No, it isn't bullshit unless you think that somehow being a man means being the things NTH has listed. When they say toxic masculinity, they mean the attributes of being a man that generally are socialized into men growing up or even as an adult. The idea that violence is a solution to things, the attitude that women are less than men (and yes it still exists, and I'll go into that in a bit), that the only emotion it is okay for men to show is anger, ignoring what women say because the only thing that matters what men say. Is this built into men's dna? No, but a lot of these things are things that society and yes, often religion, have drilled into men or shown them. This modern idea of a trad wife (and I am leaving out the D/s types, I am talking for real), the kind of drivel Phyliss Schafly put out in the 70's and 80's, were predicated on men being in charge and being the natural head of the household rather than treating a spouse as a partner. That a guy who takes what he wants is a real man and that a guy who isn't like that is effeminate are real life examples. That men and women both work in most households, yet men still refuse to help around the house, is very real. Likewise with misogyny , where women are looked down upon, seen as being B*** and hos or as a burden on poor suffering guys.

Want real world examples? How about Andrew Tate and all his followers? How about guys who think that date rape is bullshit and if a girl says no, they really are saying yes? Want a prime example? The current president and the way he is with women. If he has women around him, they damn well better be good looking. Calling a woman reporter a pig......his comments about women and how they were there for him to use, his constant threats against people, it is a textbook example of what people mean when they talk about toxic masculinity is. No, it isn't about being ashamed of being a man, it is being proud of being a man who is decent and true to himself, it is about a man who recognizes women are fellow human beings and they have no special right to presume anything about women with getting to know him.

Do I think things have gone to far, when a poor guy is being denigrated as being part of the partiarchy that controls mens lives and other such stuff? Yes, because among other things it automatically assumes the guy is even like that simplly because he is a man, the same way that the toxic masculinity crowd assume things about women simply because they are women.

There are consequences. I saw a thing on you tube where a woman was reacting to another video, where this young woman was complaining they she saw this nice looking guy at the gym, was attracted to him, even made eye contact, but the guy basically didn't interact with her. She was complaining that it was if guys expected her to make the first move, and how she hated it because it was so hard if the guy wasn't interested in her, facing rejection. The woman in the response video basically said something to the tune 'what do you expect?" , with the idea that if a guy went up to a woman he found attractive he would be considered a creep, that women are tired of men hitting on them all the time in inappropriate places. Men are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Funny part is if a guy she wasn't interested in hit on her, she likely would call him a creep.
Women who live in Jersey often talk a lot of sense.
 
[Citation needed]
Pick up a book on couples therapy. The idea that it is just guys who grow up without a father that are bad news is just plain wrong. The behaviors most people pick up come from their parents, if a father is domineering, treats the mom as second class, is misognynistic, has the attitude men are gods gift to women, his kids will pick that up. It doesn't matter what the parents say, attitudes are caught, not taught. It is amazing how much we pick up from parents and don't even know it, and having grown up with parents whose relationship was toxic, and having experienced life on both sides of the gender world, it is a lot more than people think.
 
OK - I can’t.

A) if it is, how come it’s only some men who behave this way and the vast majority don’t? B) Chmips sometimes dismember monkeys for fun, shouldn’t we be moving beyond the primal?

That feels awfully like carte blanche for crap behavior.
People are animals. But 'civilization' is all about people not being animals. Vide this site: Sex is a pretty simple essential primal urge. It feels good. But boy do we humans make a fuss about it. Some of us even go so far as to suggest that sex messed up the first humans and it took a god dying for us not to be messed up by that. And we have to say 'I'm sorry' our whole lives about that.
 
One could point the arrow at something really simple: Both bad boys and bad girls are exciting, dangerous. Life is often boring. Let's ride the roller coaster.
Precisely. I briefly dated a couple of “I am so fucking hot” guys in college. Strangely they turned out to be assholes. Neither of the men I have had (and still continue to have in the latter case) long-term relationships with are going to win any awards for their appearance. But both have integrity, a sense of right and wrong, kindness, are supportive, and make me laugh.

Women don’t want to be with bad boys (at least once in their mid-twenties) but some still like the fantasy.
 
Last edited:
Nothing could be further from my mind than sympathizing with this. Quite simply, whether consciously or subconsciously, many women find bad boys attractive. If poor nerds with glasses were the objects of desire, men obviously wouldn’t want to be aggressive "alphas" either.
Bill Gates is a nerd 'with glasses'. He's one of the biggest alphas in the world. Elon Musk is a bad boy and he breeds a lot. But what makes them alphas is that they are smart and they bring home the eats. And now we live in a world where a woman can bring home her own eats and not have kids if she doesn't want to. She can carry a tazer and zap the biggest lug. Do strong shoulders and big tits still get attention? Sure. But they don't necessarily win the day.
 
Pick up a book on couples therapy. The idea that it is just guys who grow up without a father that are bad news is just plain wrong. The behaviors most people pick up come from their parents, if a father is domineering, treats the mom as second class, is misognynistic, has the attitude men are gods gift to women, his kids will pick that up. It doesn't matter what the parents say, attitudes are caught, not taught. It is amazing how much we pick up from parents and don't even know it, and having grown up with parents whose relationship was toxic, and having experienced life on both sides of the gender world, it is a lot more than people think.

And if mom is shitty and abusive... the kids will pick that up.
 
That’s really not what I said. "Aggressive" doesn't mean rape, but rather, for example, that many women are attracted to a guy who is assertive and dominant. Of course, violence can be a side effect of this. Many men also make (bad) choices based on their instincts, but that wasn't the main point here. But we can talk about that too, because it's also the cause of many divorces.
Women (and men) tend to be attracted to people who are *confident*. The person need not be tall, dark, and handsome if he ar she is really comfortable in their own skin and knows what they want.
 
Consider the source. I think the stats show that women *marry* men who are reliable. If he is also a hottie, great. But she does want to tame him. 'Breast seller' books for women are stories about what they *don't get*. Her hubby is a happy reliable chubby. He fantasy is a lean 'do it and leave it' pirate. She gets to pretend she is the heroine so hot he crumbles to his knees. Mother Nature doesn't care about fidelity. Sure, alpha male wants to keep his harem. But Mom counts on hunky males sneaking in and spreading the diversity.
I think the starting point for a lot of marital drama is precisely when one spouse confuses reality with (often wildly far-fetched) fantasy. I don’t consider myself a person with a poor imagination, but I find stories much more exciting that are closer to reality—stories that could actually happen (or could have happened) are much more exciting to me. The sorrows and joys of people with an appearance and lifestyle close to the average. Translated to LW, for example, when the MMC mourns his middle-aged wife’s infidelity or experiences the happiness of their reconciliation.
 
7,800 words and three pages. And I have zero concerns about any LW ‘rules.’

My post was tongue in cheek, because I got a comment to that effect on the story I mentioned, and it has always amused me. The same story also set off angry rants about Donald Trump, despite it being set in South Australia, having no political themes and Trump being completely irrelevant to the story. A lot of comments I've got on my stories posted there have amused me, like one on another story set on the Titanic where I was informed that I could not write historical fiction in Loving Wives. There was no elaboration on this, just a flat comment like a grumpy English teacher giving negative feedback to a student who had missed the point in an assignment. Another informed me that I 'simply did not have the talent to write LW stories'.

I actually like writing LW stories and to give the readers there some credit, they actually do read the stories and pick up on details that might go un-noticed in other categories. One story I wrote there was narrated by the creepy cuckold husband, who describes events so outlandish you have to question what is really happening. Although the readers there generally hated and attacked the story, many did pick up that this guy was an unreliable narrator.

Some readers do give compliments there, which is always nice. For example some did praise the amount of research I did for my Titanic story, one loved the descriptions of Tasmania and one reader said he was laughing all evening about another story where the young male detective narrating has to go out and buy sanitary napkins for a hot trophy wife in witness protection, but can't find the requested brand among the many period products in the supermarket and winds up looking like a pervert in front of the many women and girls in this aisle at the same time.
 
That is exactly why stories about ordinary people are so important. And that is why I really appreciate it when someone writes a believable reconciliation story for LW.
Let me reframe the question. I have a story where I share a vibrator with my best friend. That's not even what the story is about. I just use that experience to describe my relationship with my best friend.

We did not consider that having sex. It was just two young girls exploring their bodies, and we only had access to one vibrator so we had to share.

I'll share a link. Read that story, and then tell me - if Sarah and I did that now and you were her husband.. If you walked in on us, would you want us to stop, or would it turn you on? If we saw you watching and moved from sharing a vibrator - one of us using it at a time - to using it on one another, and then to having sex, would it bother you, or turn you on?

I'm going to guess 90% of men would not want us to stop. And from the feedback on that story, if I wrote an alternate universe where Sarah and I became lesbos who occasionally asked men to play prop, it would be very popular.

I might try that too. It would be true fiction but that might be fun to try writing.

https://www.literotica.com/s/our-first-threesome-pt-01-1
Flip the trope. Suppose you stumbled in on two guys sharing an artificial vagina, or even masturbating together while sharing porn...
 
Women (and men) tend to be attracted to people who are *confident*. The person need not be tall, dark, and handsome if he ar she is really comfortable in their own skin and knows what they want.
Yes, but self-confidence can also be a trait of a narcissistic personality, which isn't all that uncommon.
"NPD is significantly more common in males than females, with prevalence rates of approximately 7.7% for men compared to 4.8% for women." (source)
 
I think the starting point for a lot of marital drama is precisely when one spouse confuses reality with (often wildly far-fetched) fantasy. I don’t consider myself a person with a poor imagination, but I find stories much more exciting that are closer to reality—stories that could actually happen (or could have happened) are much more exciting to me. The sorrows and joys of people with an appearance and lifestyle close to the average. Translated to LW, for example, when the MMC mourns his middle-aged wife’s infidelity or experiences the happiness of their reconciliation.
IRL probably tons of infidelity happens because someone is bored, or drunk, or on a work trip, or spouse has lost their faloorum, or high school crush is still ticking. Simple stuff. And often it comes down to the fact that fidelity is very useful but often not that essential. And 50% of US marriage end in divorce.
 
IRL probably tons of infidelity happens because someone is bored, or drunk, or on a work trip, or spouse has lost their faloorum, or high school crush is still ticking. Simple stuff. And often it comes down to the fact that fidelity is very useful but often not that essential. And 50% of US marriage end in divorce.
Part of the very high divorce rate worldwide is certainly due to choosing a partner who was unsuitable from the start. People are blinded by physical beauty, wealth, self-confidence, or the appearance of it. In novels, of course, such people change and settle down, but in reality, things often don’t work that way.
The other problem is that novels end at the wedding. Most people have no idea how to make a marriage work or what realistic expectations might be at that point. I think marriage dramas are popular precisely because they deal with this period. Most of the time they set a bad example (BTB), but the better stories still make you think and can be useful.
 
Are you fucking serious?
Emily, this is worth exploring on the psychological side. Consider this: Lots of men consider women second class citizens. So in order to have some power a goodly number of women will trash their men in small 'why do you have to be such an idiot?' ways. Small stuff "The spoons don't go in that drawer." Maintaining control of her turf. Sometimes it flows over into, 'Why can't you get a job like Jim? Look at how his kids are dressed.' And heaven forfend if she has the better paying job, or he is out of work for a while.' And there is an ironic double standard: Women still expect men to 'be strong' and kind of fearless killing spiders; not letting feelings show. But then dudes get ripped for not showing how they feel. I think it can be a confusing world for men outside of traditional roles these days.
 
Emily, this is worth exploring on the psychological side. Consider this: Lots of men consider women second class citizens. So in order to have some power a goodly number of women will trash their men in small 'why do you have to be such an idiot?' ways. Small stuff "The spoons don't go in that drawer." Maintaining control of her turf. Sometimes it flows over into, 'Why can't you get a job like Jim? Look at how his kids are dressed.' And heaven forfend if she has the better paying job, or he is out of work for a while.' And there is an ironic double standard: Women still expect men to 'be strong' and kind of fearless killing spiders; not letting feelings show. But then dudes get ripped for not showing how they feel. I think it can be a confusing world for men outside of traditional roles these days.
At the risk of being offensive, that all feels rather outdated to me. And he has arachnophobia, guess who gets to deal with the critters 🙄.

Men suppressing feelings is utter BS, and leads to both mental health issues and aberrant behavior.
 
Part of the very high divorce rate worldwide is certainly due to choosing a partner who was unsuitable from the start. People are blinded by physical beauty, wealth, self-confidence, or the appearance of it. In novels, of course, such people change and settle down, but in reality, things often don’t work that way.
The other problem is that novels end at the wedding. Most people have no idea how to make a marriage work or what realistic expectations might be at that point. I think marriage dramas are popular precisely because they deal with this period. Most of the time they set a bad example (BTB), but the better stories still make you think and can be useful.
I learned a strong, simple lesson. Work on the marriage happens way before the marriage. And when you are negotiating with this person you might spend the rest of your life with, you really need to explore the whole contract. Margaret Mead, anthropologist, said that historically a marriage is three things: Joining of two families, an agreement to create and raise children together, and an agreement to share property. You notice there is nothing about love or sexual satisfaction in there. People today think love invents the marriage. It doesn't. It can be the glue and the grease that keeps it going well. But a marriage is a job. And a key to making the work work is sharing values and how to solve problems.
 
My post was tongue in cheek, because I got a comment to that effect on the story I mentioned, and it has always amused me. The same story also set off angry rants about Donald Trump, despite it being set in South Australia, having no political themes and Trump being completely irrelevant to the story. A lot of comments I've got on my stories posted there have amused me, like one on another story set on the Titanic where I was informed that I could not write historical fiction in Loving Wives. There was no elaboration on this, just a flat comment like a grumpy English teacher giving negative feedback to a student who had missed the point in an assignment. Another informed me that I 'simply did not have the talent to write LW stories'.

I actually like writing LW stories and to give the readers there some credit, they actually do read the stories and pick up on details that might go un-noticed in other categories. One story I wrote there was narrated by the creepy cuckold husband, who describes events so outlandish you have to question what is really happening. Although the readers there generally hated and attacked the story, many did pick up that this guy was an unreliable narrator.

Some readers do give compliments there, which is always nice. For example some did praise the amount of research I did for my Titanic story, one loved the descriptions of Tasmania and one reader said he was laughing all evening about another story where the young male detective narrating has to go out and buy sanitary napkins for a hot trophy wife in witness protection, but can't find the requested brand among the many period products in the supermarket and winds up looking like a pervert in front of the many women and girls in this aisle at the same time.
Loving wives is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; and they threw away the key.
 
At the risk of being offensive, that all feels rather outdated to me. And he has arachnophobia, guess who gets to deal with the critters 🙄.

Men suppressing feelings is utter BS, and leads to both mental health issues and aberrant behavior.
Spoken like someone who isn't a man. I have been an actor a lot of my life and can access genuine emotions quite easily. It also helps in writing real characters of all genders. That said, it does seem that other people still get uncomfortable when a man cries his heart out, or punches a wall, or goes into a week long gloom after a setback. And if he squeals when he sees that spider? Perhaps what makes people uncomfortable about the LW category is that readers are vicariously whining, or sobbing, or flaming about someone who found them 'less than'. Hey dude, suck it up and move on like a man.
 
Back
Top