Wives Loving Wives

[LargoKitt]

At the risk of being offensive, that all feels rather outdated to me. And he has arachnophobia, guess who gets to deal with the critters .

Men suppressing feelings is utter BS, and leads to both mental health issues and aberrant behavior.

Spoken like someone who isn't a man. I have been an actor a lot of my life and can access genuine emotions quite easily. It also helps in writing real characters of all genders. That said, it does seem that other people still get uncomfortable when a man cries his heart out, or punches a wall, or goes into a week long gloom after a setback. And if he squeals when he sees that spider? Perhaps what makes people uncomfortable about the LW category is that readers are vicariously whining, or sobbing, or flaming about someone who found them 'less than'. Hey dude, suck it up and move on like a man.

 

[Ianus4]

No, it isn't bullshit unless you think that somehow being a man means being the things NTH has listed. When they say toxic masculinity, they mean the attributes of being a man that generally are socialized into men growing up or even as an adult. The idea that violence is a solution to things, the attitude that women are less than men (and yes it still exists, and I'll go into that in a bit), that the only emotion it is okay for men to show is anger, ignoring what women say because the only thing that matters what men say. Is this built into men's dna? No, but a lot of these things are things that society and yes, often religion, have drilled into men or shown them. This modern idea of a trad wife (and I am leaving out the D/s types, I am talking for real), the kind of drivel Phyliss Schafly put out in the 70's and 80's, were predicated on men being in charge and being the natural head of the household rather than treating a spouse as a partner. That a guy who takes what he wants is a real man and that a guy who isn't like that is effeminate are real life examples. That men and women both work in most households, yet men still refuse to help around the house, is very real. Likewise with misogyny , where women are looked down upon, seen as being B*** and hos or as a burden on poor suffering guys.

My problem with this is that the term itself is also a brand. If you leave “masculinity” implied behind the word “toxic,” you’re sending the message that these traits are linked to masculinity—and men want to be masculine to impress women. Or that they want to show, “just for the sake of it,” that they won’t let themselves be emasculated. If society wants to get rid of these traits, then it shouldn’t call them masculine, not even with a prefix. Call masculine what is masculine in a positive sense.
Of course, to do that, they’d have to define what the standard for masculinity is in the 21st century. Oh, and these traits can’t contradict each other. That’s where the trouble begins: what is the kind of masculinity that today’s straight women find desirable? Is it even possible to define that?

 

[EmilyMiller]

That said, it does seem that some other people still get uncomfortable when a man cries his heart out, or punches a wall, or goes into a week long gloom after a setback.

Fixed it

 

[LargoKitt]

My problem with this is that the term itself is also a brand. If you leave “masculinity” implied behind the word “toxic,” you’re sending the message that these traits are linked to masculinity—and men want to be masculine to impress women. Or that they want to show, “just for the sake of it,” that they won’t let themselves be emasculated. If society wants to get rid of these traits, then it shouldn’t call them masculine, not even with a prefix. Call masculine what is masculine in a positive sense.
Of course, to do that, they’d have to define what the standard for masculinity is in the 21st century. Oh, and these traits can’t contradict each other. That’s where the trouble begins: what is the kind of masculinity that today’s straight women find desirable? Is it even possible to define that?

I have a simple standard for what an adult man or woman should behave like in the 21st century. "Be a grown-up. Take full responsibility for all your behavior."

 

[LargoKitt]

Fixed it

That said, it does seem that lots of other people still get uncomfortable when a man cries his heart out, or punches a wall, or goes into a week long gloom after a setback, many of them women.

Fixed it again.

 

[EmilyMiller]

That said, it does seem that lots of other people still get uncomfortable when a man cries his heart out, or punches a wall, or goes into a week long gloom after a setback, many of them women born before 1970.

 

[njlauren]

My problem with this is that the term itself is also a brand. If you leave “masculinity” implied behind the word “toxic,” you’re sending the message that these traits are linked to masculinity—and men want to be masculine to impress women. Or that they want to show, “just for the sake of it,” that they won’t let themselves be emasculated. If society wants to get rid of these traits, then it shouldn’t call them masculine, not even with a prefix. Call masculine what is masculine in a positive sense.
Of course, to do that, they’d have to define what the standard for masculinity is in the 21st century. Oh, and these traits can’t contradict each other. That’s where the trouble begins: what is the kind of masculinity that today’s straight women find desirable? Is it even possible to define that?

Toxic is a modifier, the same way that attractive would be a modifier, as in attractive masculinity (and yes it exists). Masculinity is a label, the way femininity is. And most women I bet if you asked could give you examples of toxic femininity (the Kardasians come to mind)

 

[liliput1]

The issue here is that the original discussion was on toxic masculinity. The discussion of men being beaten down by women is mostly irrelevant, and it's being invoked here to distract from the original points being made about toxic masculinity.

The thing I find most interesting about the topic of wife on husband violence is that it is exactly toxic masculinity that is the source of the under-reporting. Both from the victim and law enforcement friction to taking the complaint seriously. You can't fix the one without fighting the other, and if you just say, "well women are the problem too" like that ends the conversation then you're part of the problem.

It can be quite relevant to a discussion of this sort, but it depends on who is holding the stick and which end they've grabbed it by.



@EmilyMiller I think you're at least 15 years off on the 1970's line. The mid to late 80's were IME peak toxicity and those 70's kids were learning to socialize during the middle of that goop. Lots of internalized toxicity in everyone's heads, even if we tried not to hand that stuff down. Sorry about participation trophies.

 

[EmilyMiller]

@EmilyMiller I think you're at least 15 years off on the 1970's line. The mid to late 80's were IME peak toxicity and those 70's kids were learning to socialize during the middle of that goop. Lots of internalized toxicity in everyone's heads, even if we tried not to hand that stuff down. Sorry about participation trophies.

Yeah probably. As a 1990s gal, all those other pre-existence years kinda blend together .

 

[NoTalentHack]

Come on, Em. It's not 55 year old women going on TikTok and talking about how men crying gives them "the ick." It's not 55 year old women acting like a dad at the playground, who is clearly there with his own kids, is a clear and present danger because he smiled at her kids (and yes, this actually happened to me). It's not 55 year old women who will both dismiss men's loneliness as "a problem everyone is having" while then turning around and talking about how deep and rich her friendships with other women are and saying men just have to act more like that to keep from being lonely.

Are things better than they were even twenty years ago? Probably. Are they gone? Fuck no. And pretending that this is entirely down to men being toxic, as though there's no outside pressure, both from other men and from women (including Gen Z women) who perpetuate toxicity, is either being blind or disingenuous.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Come on, Em. It's not 55 year old women going on TikTok and talking about how men crying gives them "the ick."

Tik-tok women <> all women it self-selects for a certain type

It's not 55 year old women acting like a dad at the playground, who is clearly there with his own kids, is a clear and present danger because he smiled at her kids (and yes, this actually happened to me).

Can’t claim any experience - hopefully at some point before I’m an old maid

It's not 55 year old women who will both dismiss men's loneliness as "a problem everyone is having" while then turning around and talking about how deep and rich her friendships with other women are and saying men just have to act more like that to keep from being lonely.

Have you read articles about the loneliness women face? And how that’s not very important and not meritorious of seminars and hand-wringing. Like medical problems impacting women, it’s not a priority.

Are things better than they were even twenty years ago? Probably. Are they gone? Fuck no. And pretending that this is entirely down to men being toxic, as though there's no outside pressure, both from other men and from women (including Gen Z women) who perpetuate toxicity, is either being blind or disingenuous.

I reacted to women being blamed for men’s chosen behavior - and I stand 100% behind that reaction with zero apology.

Men and women are both the same species. Our species often sucks, but I know, and my mom knows, and my Nonna knew, in whose favor the deck is stacked.

But what about the poor men is truly disingenuous. Walk in our shoes - you’d look great cross-dressing.

 

[Lifestyle66]

"... when a man cries his heart out, or punches a wall, or goes into a week long gloom after a setback ..."

LOL. Where do I begin to address how women respond to such behaviors?

If I cried in front of my wife, she'd sarcastically say "SORRY, if I hurt your feelings!" (And yes, it would drip with sarcasm!) Other women I know would just roll their eyes in disbelief and walk away.

When it comes to punching a wall, ... LOL!!!??? REALLY? That's INTIMIDATION!!!! (Another toxic masculine trait., so, damned again!)

And going into a week-long gloom after a setback? W.T.F.? Give up a week of my life for what? My wife would say "Grow UP!"



Maybe it's just me, and the wife I chose, but we're BOTH of the attitude that "Sticks and stone may break my bones, but names can never hurt me!" "Grow up!" "Tomorrow's another day." "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger!", etc! Those were the truisms we both grew up to, and today's sensitively B.S. offends her too.

My wife's attitude at work and in any social situation with "male toxicity" or attempts at male dominance is to say "Bring it on, asshole! You've met your match with ME, and I'll crush you!" (Note: she's NOT a big woman, and it's just her attitude men are afraid of!)

She doesn't tolerate the weak feminists around her at work, saying "When they complain to me about how Marcel treats them, it disgusts me, because I just put him in his place!"

That's why I love her!! She's a true PEER! But we're old, and the young still have much to learn.

EDIT: If you truly believe that "toxic men" were raised that way, then weak women were also raised by their own parents! Take a look in the mirror and then look at your own parents for who to blame.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Tik-tok women <> all women it self-selects for a certain type

You're moving the goal posts here. Before, you were saying it was "just women born before 1970." Now, it's, "okay, and these women, too, but..." ah... #NotAllWomen? Maybe?

I reacted to women being blamed for men’s chosen behavior - and I stand 100% behind that reaction with zero apology.

Are they responsible for men's behavior? No. Does their behavior sometimes influence that behavior? Yes. Just like, to return to Loving Wives, qhile it is the spouse who cheats that's responsible for that cheating, the jilted spouse can still have made the marriage so unpleasant that cheating seemed like an attractive option. Not that spouse's fault that their wife/husband cheated, but they are responsible for their own behavior, too, and how that can affect the spouse's dedication to them.

Men and women are both the same species. Our species often sucks, but I know, and my mom knows, and my Nonna knew, in whose favor the deck is stacked.

We are the same species, yes, but we can still experience vastly different lives. And, yes, as an overall measure, men have it easier than women; however, pretending that men's problems don't exist, or that they're lesser in nature where they do exist, is... I mean, it's just wrong. Like from a moral standpoint, telling men, "your problems don't really exist; and if they do, they're not as important as women's; and if they are, they're your fault because of the patriarchy; and if they're not, you still need to deal with them and not bother us about it," is just an absolute non-starter.

 

[EmilyMiller]

You're moving the goal posts here. Before, you were saying it was "just women born before 1970." Now, it's, "okay, and these women, too, but..." ah... #NotAllWomen? Maybe?

The goalposts have been moved so many times on this thread, I feel entitled to do whatever. Tik-tok and IG are aberrations, regardless of the age of the influencer. I thought we were talking about regular folk.

Are they responsible for men's behavior? No. Does their behavior sometimes influence that behavior? Yes. Just like, to return to Loving Wives, qhile it is the spouse who cheats that's responsible for that cheating, the jilted spouse can still have made the marriage so unpleasant that cheating seemed like an attractive option. Not that spouse's fault that their wife/husband cheated, but they are responsible for their own behavior, too, and how that can affect the spouse's dedication to them.

That’s not a great analogy. Let’s be personal, am I responsible for toxic masculinity? Have I helped create it?

Spousal cheating is complicated and relationships are complicated. It’s not the same as calling women worthless fuckholes on X. Or publicly flaying trans women who dare to exist.

You are going to have to convince me that the challenges of maintaining a healthy marriage in the face of - well - life, are akin to saying that men are owed sex by women and deserve to be raped if the don’t acquiesce.

Have had that said to me on X - multiple times. One of these things is not like the other.

We are the same species, yes, but we can still experience vastly different lives. And, yes, as an overall measure, men have it easier than women; however, pretending that men's problems don't exist, or that they're lesser in nature where they do exist, is... I mean, it's just wrong.

And it wouldn’t even come up if some douche didn’t start blaming women. And then double down about the massive incidence of women assaulting men. Both of which are pure diversion.

Like from a moral standpoint, telling men, "your problems don't really exist; and if they do, they're not as important as women's; and if they are, they're your fault because of the patriarchy; and if they're not, you still need to deal with them and not bother us about it," is just an absolute non-starter.

Please point out where I said that.

Look at how this trainwreck started. And how they always start. Some casually misogynistic BS exculpating the abhorrent behavior of some men. If more men stood up to that shit (and to be fair some did here) there would be no need for this convo.

 

[Stanfield2025]

Precisely. I briefly dated a couple of “I am so fucking hot” guys in college. Strangely they turned out to be assholes. Neither of the men I have had (and still continue to have in the latter case) long-term relationships with are going to win any awards for their appearance. But both have integrity, a sense of right and wrong, kindness, are supportive, and make me laugh.

Women don’t want to be with bad boys (at least once in their mid-twenties) but some still like the fantasy.

And all of us on this site should at least be understanding of what it's like to want a fantasy.

 

[Stanfield2025]

Don't nurses all have a common enemy: arrogant doctors?

Yuuuup

 

[Stanfield2025]

The thing I find most interesting about the topic of wife on husband violence is that it is exactly toxic masculinity that is the source of the under-reporting. Both from the victim and law enforcement friction to taking the complaint seriously. You can't fix the one without fighting the other, and if you just say, "well women are the problem too" like that ends the conversation then you're part of the problem.

It can be quite relevant to a discussion of this sort, but it depends on who is holding the stick and which end they've grabbed it by.



@EmilyMiller I think you're at least 15 years off on the 1970's line. The mid to late 80's were IME peak toxicity and those 70's kids were learning to socialize during the middle of that goop. Lots of internalized toxicity in everyone's heads, even if we tried not to hand that stuff down. Sorry about participation trophies.

Said it way better than me. I was thinking of and was going to point out the toxic masculinity part of the wife-on-husband violence underreporting, but I didn't figure out a way to make my case clearly. Like you said, it can be super relevant to the discussion, but it depends on how it's discussed.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Said it way better than me. I was thinking of and was going to point out the toxic masculinity part of the wife-on-husband violence underreporting, but I didn't figure out a way to make my case clearly. Like you said, it can be super relevant to the discussion, but it depends on how it's discussed.

You're sounding like an AI's ambivalent response after just earlier in this thread shooting me down for injecting the same change in the prevailing topic.

For the site Admins: I suggest you find some way of checking for these bots.

 

[Stanfield2025]

You're sounding like an AI's ambivalent response after just earlier in this thread shooting me down for injecting the same change in the prevailing topic.

For the site Admins: I suggest you find some way of checking for these bots.

You have no idea what AI sounds like. It's obvious.

 

[sirhugs]

You have no idea what AI sounds like. None.

Apparently it is not obvious, as there are numerous threads and posts on this very forum about human written submissions being rejected as suspected AI efforts, including by very reputable authors.

 

[Stanfield2025]

Apparently it is not obvious, as there are numerous threads and posts on this very forum about human written submissions being rejected as suspected AI efforts, including by very reputable authors.

Good point.

 

[liliput1]

You're sounding like an AI's ambivalent response after just earlier in this thread shooting me down for injecting the same change in the prevailing topic.

For the site Admins: I suggest you find some way of checking for these bots.

You're being tedious.

You've already established that your goal in this conversation is to throw up as much chaff as possible in order to derail the conversation so that it doesn't progress. Now you're questioning someone's personhood.

Also the very late addition of the Strong Independent Wife information is either whack-a-doodle or points to you being a bot which would go along with the projection onto someone else.

I said there's a way someone could have framed it that would have been useful. I apologize if the way I put that did not communicate clearly that I thought you fucked it. Because you did. And Stanfield picked up on my assertion, which is why I got a polite reply and you got 'shot down'.

Sort yerself out.

 

[LargoKitt]

"... when a man cries his heart out, or punches a wall, or goes into a week long gloom after a setback ..."

LOL. Where do I begin to address how women respond to such behaviors?

If I cried in front of my wife, she'd sarcastically say "SORRY, if I hurt your feelings!" (And yes, it would drip with sarcasm!) Other women I know would just roll their eyes in disbelief and walk away.

When it comes to punching a wall, ... LOL!!!??? REALLY? That's INTIMIDATION!!!! (Another toxic masculine trait., so, damned again!)

And going into a week-long gloom after a setback? W.T.F.? Give up a week of my life for what? My wife would say "Grow UP!"



Maybe it's just me, and the wife I chose, but we're BOTH of the attitude that "Sticks and stone may break my bones, but names can never hurt me!" "Grow up!" "Tomorrow's another day." "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger!", etc! Those were the truisms we both grew up to, and today's sensitively B.S. offends her too.

My wife's attitude at work and in any social situation with "male toxicity" or attempts at male dominance is to say "Bring it on, asshole! You've met your match with ME, and I'll crush you!" (Note: she's NOT a big woman, and it's just her attitude men are afraid of!)

She doesn't tolerate the weak feminists around her at work, saying "When they complain to me about how Marcel treats them, it disgusts me, because I just put him in his place!"

That's why I love her!! She's a true PEER! But we're old, and the young still have much to learn.

EDIT: If you truly believe that "toxic men" were raised that way, then weak women were also raised by their own parents! Take a look in the mirror and then look at your own parents for who to blame.

LifeStyle66 you are illustrating beautifully what I meant by women "playing with the Boys' Club'. Your wife is a champ pretty much if she acts like a guy. And she pisses on the 'feminists' and the whiners, too. So it seems she also would disparage women who are 'crybabies' or 'can't get it together after having a baby and blame it on post partum blah blah blah.' And she isn't afraid of getting points by showing no fear and maybe making others afraid. So that works in your house. It's the deal you cut. But it isn't The Way. Sensitivity and understanding and tolerating moodiness and so on are ways that other relationships work. But do you have kids? Or work with kids? Because it seems they are getting the 'boys suck it up', 'strong people don't cry' and 'act don't react' message loud and clear. How will they choose to be with their partners?

 

[Emma_O]

"...I have learned they feel taken for granted, unloved, no romance, no intimacy from their husbands..."

You reminded me of this quote I saw not so long ago.

 

[Stanfield2025]

Your wife is a champ pretty much if she acts like a guy. And she pisses on the 'feminists' and the whiners, too. So it seems she also would disparage women who are 'crybabies' or 'can't get it together after having a baby and blame it on post partum blah blah blah.' And she isn't afraid of getting points by showing no fear and maybe making others afraid.

Ah yes, the Cool Girl trope.