Women...ugh

[unregistered]

 

[graceanne]

I think this is why I don't have many female friends, and when I do I don't keep them long. Women speak with out saying what they mean. Everything has a double meaning and they don't come out and just say what they mean. It's very frusterating. If I want to know what the dress is for a party, that's what I'm going to ask. And I usually ask if I should bring anything. One I like to show off my talents that way (attention whore) and two I was just raised that you don't go to a party empty handed, a bottle of wine or something at the very least.

If I ask what you're going to wear, it's because I don't want to coordenate with you. If you're wearing a white top and black skirt, I don't want to be in the same type of thing. Of course this is because I like to stand out. But that's usually not an issue. I have a very unique style.

Just to be clear, I'm was talking in general. People interest me, and I like to figure these things out. People, not just women, confuse me.

my interest in fashion is minute, but i care deeply about being appropriately dressed for an outing/event. it has nothing to do with wanting to appear attractive or fashionable, but more an intense desire i've always had not to stick out.

That's what I meant. I think. It was several days ago. My point was women ask because they want to fit in. (Not me, I want to stand out.) They also ask what a person's wearing, instead of what they should wear, because they're afraid of looking like they weren't sure what they should wear. And sometimes they're just curious.

I'm getting the impression that the phenomenon of "what are you wearing" is based in low self esteem and insecurity. (Not completely but mostly). This makes me sad for my sex.

Me, too. But it's a fact of life.

Why do so many women have such problems with self esteem?

Depends on the person. I've been told I have a low self esteem, and I disagree. I'm funny, smart, and kind. I am not the best looking person, I AM fat, and I refuse to lie to myself in the name of 'self esteem'. I try to make it a habit to be honest with myself.

Other woman? It can be anything from bad parenting to a bad school experience to abuse. I've been considering homeschooling my children for jr. high because the only people who don't leave jr. high without emotional scars are the people who were giving them. I don't know what it is about putting a bunch of 13 year olds together that makes them need to tear each other apart, but I still have to argue with myself about whether I care if my socks match my outfit.

 

[FurryFury]

Men are just as insecure as women, IMO. They show it in different ways and they mostly, don't talk about it. We talk about it. It's part of human nature to be insecure to one degree or another. That's just my opinion of course.

 

[Keroin]

The downside to this, of course, is when I do need to dress nice for an event, I only have a few outfits from which to choose. On these occasions I do wonder if I'm wearing the same outfit I wore to the last whatever-it-was. My husband says (like Keroin said earlier in the thread) that no one is paying attention. I think this is probably true. I don't worry about it enough to run and buy new clothes. In fact, I do not like to shop for myself at all.

Your husband is right.

After reading this, I actually tried to consciously remember anything anyone was wearing at any of the events I've attended in the last year. The only one that came to mind was my friend A who, at a "Let's Pretend we're in Mexico" party during the height of winter, wore (over her t-shirt) a plastic bra filled with water and plastic fish.

Yep, that's pretty much how far you have to go to get my attention.

Men are just as insecure as women, IMO. They show it in different ways and they mostly, don't talk about it. We talk about it. It's part of human nature to be insecure to one degree or another. That's just my opinion of course.

You're probably right, FF. Men's insecurities are probably just different from women's insecurities and manifest themselves differently. I live with Captain Confident so I guess I forget that normal men actually doubt themselves sometimes. (Yes, that was a joke, L has doubted himself...once, I think it was in November...1999...I wrote about it in my journal).

(Kidding, kidding)

 

[rida]

I don't care if women want to wear make up and have fancy hair do's and fuss with their clothes but I'd like a world where it's indeed a choice and not an expectation.

It takes a good does of "I'm comfortable with myself", both on the side of the shy low self-esteem girls and on the side of the aggressive ones, the ones that need to put down the shy girls for not "fitting in".

When it comes to self-esteem, I'm trying to teach my girls to stand up for themselves. But I'm even more strongly teaching them that it is not acceptable to put down/make fun/belittle and ultimately hurt the feeling of other people. Ever.
(I'll keep the speech on "humiliation play" for when they are old enough and ask for it )

I still don't get the shoe thing, though.

Let's see if these confy shoes gets you:
http://shop.camper.com/index.xhtml?lng=en

 

[Netzach]

Men are just as insecure as women, IMO. They show it in different ways and they mostly, don't talk about it. We talk about it. It's part of human nature to be insecure to one degree or another. That's just my opinion of course.

I agree. Their insecurities are the unwritten subtext, but it's pretty easy if you're reasonably empathic to figure out what the insecurity in question is and work with it or let it work for you, as they case may be.

What the unwritten subtext is with women is anyone's freaking guess though.

 

[Keroin]

It takes a good does of "I'm comfortable with myself", both on the side of the shy low self-esteem girls and on the side of the aggressive ones, the ones that need to put down the shy girls for not "fitting in".

When it comes to self-esteem, I'm trying to teach my girls to stand up for themselves. But I'm even more strongly teaching them that it is not acceptable to put down/make fun/belittle and ultimately hurt the feeling of other people. Ever.
(I'll keep the speech on "humiliation play" for when they are old enough and ask for it )

Good for you. Yes, you have an excellent point. I don't know how many girls made me feel like a toad - back in school days - because I didn't have the right clothes, hair style, make up, etc. In some ways I think it would have been nice to have a school with uniforms.

My hair would just never feather properly. This was a bad thing in the early eighties! LOL.

Let's see if these confy shoes gets you:
http://shop.camper.com/index.xhtml?lng=en

Mmmm, K likes! I have a pair of Vans that I live in and those look quite similar. (Mind you, I couldn't justify buying a new pair until the old pair were worn out...)

 

[FurryFury]

I agree. Their insecurities are the unwritten subtext, but it's pretty easy if you're reasonably empathic to figure out what the insecurity in question is and work with it or let it work for you, as they case may be.

What the unwritten subtext is with women is anyone's freaking guess though.

Women have always seemed far more complex and complicated than men to me. I get men. Women, I often find myself wondering WTF?

LOL.

It wasn't until I was in my thirties I could have really normal relationships with just any woman I happened to meet.

 

[subish2009]

Women have always seemed far more complex and complicated than men to me. I get men. Women, I often find myself wondering WTF?

LOL.

It wasn't until I was in my thirties I could have really normal relationships with just any woman I happened to meet.

I completely agree with this. I LOVE men. Sexually, yes, I'm very hetero, but even platonically, I've always gotten along better with men. I always had mostly male friends growing up. Women don't seem to get me and I don't get them either. Men and I usually click instantly.

This has greatly improved for me with age, but even now, I find myself in conversations with women, especially in groups, where it's very clear that I have nothing to contribute to the conversation, i say all the wrong things, and I'm bored to tears.

A perfect example of this was two weekends ago when my husband was hosting a boys' night at our house. All the wives and kids had dinner at one of the wives' houses and it was fine, pleasant, but I was sooooo over it by the end. I came home and the boys were still going strong, all drunk. I put the kid to bed and they wanted me to hang out with them, so i did. I immediately felt 100% comfortable, at ease, like I could totally be my unedited self, and laughed all night. It was a GREAT time. I don't know what that's about, but it's the story of my life.

 

[eastern sun]

I'm getting the impression that the phenomenon of "what are you wearing" is based in low self esteem and insecurity. (Not completely but mostly). This makes me sad for my sex.

Why do so many women have such problems with self esteem?

I mean, I've been there, I know how it feels but I also grew and learned and moved past it. Still, I felt it as a young girl and I'm sure lots of other women do too, and lots never grow past it. So why is it so much more common with women than men? And are we still passing it on to the next generations? Is there any way to stop the cycle?

A thread titled "Women . . . ugh" might not be the best way of helping build women's self-esteem. (I hadn't opened this thread before because I really don't enjoy conversations that criticize women for being "women.")

 

[ecstaticsub]

If I can just address the shoe issue, I love shoes. Why? Because they always fit. I can gain 10lb and my shoes will fit, I can lose 20 lbs and my shoes will fit. I can go out shopping and try on a ton of outfits and none will fit right but I can walk into a shoe store and try on a sexy pair of shoes and I feel great.

My shoe size varies from 10-11 depending on the kind of shoe and brand and often a store won't have my size. But usually I find something. (except one in Italy I was in a huge shoe warehouse type store with tons of beautiful shoes and could not find ANY that fit me!! very frustrating)

I have about 50 pairs of shoes or boots. A few pair that I only wear for seduction purposes. They are fun and make me happy.

That's why I love shoes.

 

[eastern sun]

My thinking is it comes from a variety of sources but primarily from mothers and media. .

My daughter is just hitting puberty, and I'm watching her self=esteem take a huge hit. Most of it comes from the cattiness of the other girls - who are all watching each other successfully attract the boys' attention, or not, and artfully bringing down any girl who seems to have a bit of an advantage.

 

[Keroin]

A thread titled "Women . . . ugh" might not be the best way of helping build women's self-esteem. (I hadn't opened this thread before because I really don't enjoy conversations that criticize women for being "women.")

Yeah, I get that. I was having a moment of frustration.

If it's any compensation, I have plenty of "Men...ugh" days, too. Especially when hubby won't go to the doctor or I catch him rinsing off the board he just chopped raw chicken on without using soap to wash it...shit like that. UGH!

So, what did make you open this thread?

My daughter is just hitting puberty, and I'm watching her self=esteem take a huge hit. Most of it comes from the cattiness of the other girls - who are all watching each other successfully attract the boys' attention, or not, and artfully bringing down any girl who seems to have a bit of an advantage.

Wow, I know, it's so harsh at that age. Man, I wouldn't go back there for a million dollars.

So, do you think this is learned behaviour or just genetics, evolution, etc?

 

[Keroin]

I completely agree with this. I LOVE men. Sexually, yes, I'm very hetero, but even platonically, I've always gotten along better with men. I always had mostly male friends growing up. Women don't seem to get me and I don't get them either. Men and I usually click instantly.

This has greatly improved for me with age, but even now, I find myself in conversations with women, especially in groups, where it's very clear that I have nothing to contribute to the conversation, i say all the wrong things, and I'm bored to tears.

A perfect example of this was two weekends ago when my husband was hosting a boys' night at our house. All the wives and kids had dinner at one of the wives' houses and it was fine, pleasant, but I was sooooo over it by the end. I came home and the boys were still going strong, all drunk. I put the kid to bed and they wanted me to hang out with them, so i did. I immediately felt 100% comfortable, at ease, like I could totally be my unedited self, and laughed all night. It was a GREAT time. I don't know what that's about, but it's the story of my life.

I’m going to take a stab at this one because I think you are far from alone in this. I’ve noticed a pattern on this board and elsewhere. There are large numbers of women who express a desire to try to make everyone happy or to at least try their best not to offend anyone. This is a noble goal, though many women acknowledge the impossibility of making everyone happy. However, being considerate and politically correct 24/7 is – in my experience – exhausting. So, you put a bunch of women together in a room, all trying to be nice, say the right thing, dress appropriately, not offend anyone, etc, etc, etc and it becomes exhausting to the nth power.

I’ve also noticed a large number of women on this board and elsewhere who say they have trouble having relationships with women, dislike women, don’t feel comfortable with women, etc, and much prefer the company of men. No surprise there. With “the guys” there is not that expectation of “we must all get along no matter the cost to our personal happiness”. It’s liberating to either discard political correctness or to at least tone it down.

So it’s interesting that the very qualities that women express as important seem to be the very qualities that repel them from the company of other women.

Well, that’s only a loose theory but I have definitely noticed this pattern.

I know I am certainly comfortable hanging with the guys…yeah, duh, that one was hard to figure out…but I have learned to cultivate meaningful relationships with other women, as well because there are lots of qualities women possess that I think are valuable. Mostly, I just started to choose my friends a lot more carefully. I now have several female friends that are strong, intelligent, witty, amazing, funny women who enrich my life to no end. My experience was that the change had to come from both ends, though. I had to cast off my PC, overly-considerate behaviour so that the women I was with could feel comfortable doing the same. That was surprisingly difficult, BTW.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I’ve also noticed a large number of women on this board and elsewhere who say they have trouble having relationships with women, dislike women, don’t feel comfortable with women, etc, and much prefer the company of men. No surprise there. With “the guys” there is not that expectation of “we must all get along no matter the cost to our personal happiness”. It’s liberating to either discard political correctness or to at least tone it down.

hm, interesting theory, but not one which relates to my own life experiences. i have not noticed women in groups trying to appease one another or make everyone happy (quite the opposite actually), but then again i haven't been exposed to many groups of women.

there are two primary reasons i think i get along so well with men: my tendency toward literalness and logic-based thinking, and my need to be cared for and protected. all the male friends i've ever had have been aggressive, authoritative protective types...my submissive personality does not challenge them, and my crippling insecurities and vulnerabilities make them feel needed. likewise, being around someone like this makes me feel 1. safe, and 2. appreciated and liked for who i am. so it's a good fit.

though i've never actually befriended another woman, the very few women i've gotten along with reasonably well had the same butchy, alpha-type personalities and the same dominant tendencies to protect and shelter me from the world at large.

the odd thing is i've always wanted to have a submissive female friend, but given the above factors i'm not sure if that would actually be possible.

 

[Keroin]

hm, interesting theory, but not one which relates to my own life experiences. i have not noticed women in groups trying to appease one another or make everyone happy (quite the opposite actually), but then again i haven't been exposed to many groups of women.

there are two primary reasons i think i get along so well with men: my tendency toward literalness and logic-based thinking, and my need to be cared for and protected. all the male friends i've ever had have been aggressive, authoritative protective types...my submissive personality does not challenge them, and my crippling insecurities and vulnerabilities make them feel needed. likewise, being around someone like this makes me feel 1. safe, and 2. appreciated and liked for who i am. so it's a good fit.

though i've never actually befriended another woman, the very few women i've gotten along with reasonably well had the same butchy, alpha-type personalities and the same dominant tendencies to protect and shelter me from the world at large.

the odd thing is i've always wanted to have a submissive female friend, but given the above factors i'm not sure if that would actually be possible.

No, I'm not surprised this doesn't match your experience, from what I know of you, OSG. It is something I've observed on numerous occasions, though and I think that women who regularly associate with groups of other women in a friendly environment might concur.

I think of it as "no one wants to eat the last cookie" behaviour. You know, when there's a group of women and only one *delicious* cookie left on the plate and no one wants to eat it because they think it would be rude? So everyone just works hard at ignoring it and when finally someone speaks up everyone pretends they're full or something to avoid looking greedy. That sort of behaviour. (Just an example, there may be plenty of women here who would eat that last cookie - I sure as heck would).

 

[eastern sun]

So, what did make you open this thread?

An interesting crowd was beginning to form. I got curious.

So, do you think this is learned behaviour or just genetics, evolution, etc?

I guess I think all human behavior is some combination of biology and culture. The sexual behaviors that are beginning to develop in middle school are very powerful, and I can't imagine that the catty, cliquish, competition among girls doesn't have its foundation in an instinct-driven fear that there won't be enough resources for everyone and the perceived value of gaining the attention of the dominant males.

The dominant male is clearly defined in my daughter's class, and the girls are all trying to figure out who his "natural" mate is among them. As they try to figure that out they're primarily looking at who he pays attention to, and then either pulling her down or trying to befriend her in an effort to increase their chances at gaining access.

I think that's pretty basic biology at work. But then we humans layer our culture and morality on top, supporting the behavior and seeking to counteract its negative influences on the social fabric.

And that's where the moms step in (or at least, try to). Most of us want our daughters to be strong, smart, brave, and beautiful (which is fairly tall order if you think about it). We see aspects of ourselves in our daughters - and whether or not we like ourselves is significant in how we respond to them. Our daughters' youthful fresh beauty can be threatening too, and I've seen a lot of moms struggle not to compete with their own daughters. (A lot of moms experience a sexual reawakening as their daughters enter puberty.) In the midst of all this, moms are interpreting the cultural messages for their girls, telling them what's important, what's not, how to fit in, what people will expect from them, what they can expect from people.

I just had a conversation with a friend in which I realized how uncomfortable I am with my daughter when she's "full of herself," drawing attention to herself and not sharing or being generous (in the particular ways I think she should). She's just feeling her own power, clumsily expressing her beauty and her strength, strutting a bit, and hoping to be noticed. But it makes me feel slightly ashamed that she would be so transparently "proud" of herself.

I'm pretty caught myself in the belief that a woman's power is most valuable when she's using it to benefit others.

It's a huge issue, this issue of self-esteem.

 

[subish2009]

I’m going to take a stab at this one because I think you are far from alone in this. I’ve noticed a pattern on this board and elsewhere. There are large numbers of women who express a desire to try to make everyone happy or to at least try their best not to offend anyone. This is a noble goal, though many women acknowledge the impossibility of making everyone happy. However, being considerate and politically correct 24/7 is – in my experience – exhausting. So, you put a bunch of women together in a room, all trying to be nice, say the right thing, dress appropriately, not offend anyone, etc, etc, etc and it becomes exhausting to the nth power.

I’ve also noticed a large number of women on this board and elsewhere who say they have trouble having relationships with women, dislike women, don’t feel comfortable with women, etc, and much prefer the company of men. No surprise there. With “the guys” there is not that expectation of “we must all get along no matter the cost to our personal happiness”. It’s liberating to either discard political correctness or to at least tone it down.

So it’s interesting that the very qualities that women express as important seem to be the very qualities that repel them from the company of other women.

Well, that’s only a loose theory but I have definitely noticed this pattern.

I know I am certainly comfortable hanging with the guys…yeah, duh, that one was hard to figure out…but I have learned to cultivate meaningful relationships with other women, as well because there are lots of qualities women possess that I think are valuable. Mostly, I just started to choose my friends a lot more carefully. I now have several female friends that are strong, intelligent, witty, amazing, funny women who enrich my life to no end. My experience was that the change had to come from both ends, though. I had to cast off my PC, overly-considerate behaviour so that the women I was with could feel comfortable doing the same. That was surprisingly difficult, BTW.

I think you may be onto something here, K. I'm going to think about it. I'll be back. Thank you.

 

[eastern sun]

I would also like to suggest that class distinctions also affect the interactions among women. In my experience, groups of women from different socio-economic groups interact with each other differently.

 

[Keroin]

I think you may be onto something here, K. I'm going to think about it. I'll be back. Thank you.

Why, you’re welcome!

The example you used resonates strongly with me. About a month ago I did a girl’s sleepover, which was a lot of fun and full of tons of great conversation. But there was definitely much politeness and the end of the evening was set aside for a couple of “chick flicks”. I like movies where things blow up and people fight and there are zombies and stuff so that’s the moment they really lost me. About five minutes after getting home the next day, I got in touch with one of my male friends (L was out of town) so I could get my “fix” of senseless, non-PC swearing, violence and male-type talk.

 

[Keroin]

An interesting crowd was beginning to form. I got curious.

Gotcha!

And that's where the moms step in (or at least, try to). Most of us want our daughters to be strong, smart, brave, and beautiful (which is fairly tall order if you think about it). We see aspects of ourselves in our daughters - and whether or not we like ourselves is significant in how we respond to them. Our daughters' youthful fresh beauty can be threatening too, and I've seen a lot of moms struggle not to compete with their own daughters. (A lot of moms experience a sexual reawakening as their daughters enter puberty.) In the midst of all this, moms are interpreting the cultural messages for their girls, telling them what's important, what's not, how to fit in, what people will expect from them, what they can expect from people.

I just had a conversation with a friend in which I realized how uncomfortable I am with my daughter when she's "full of herself," drawing attention to herself and not sharing or being generous (in the particular ways I think she should). She's just feeling her own power, clumsily expressing her beauty and her strength, strutting a bit, and hoping to be noticed. But it makes me feel slightly ashamed that she would be so transparently "proud" of herself.

I'm pretty caught myself in the belief that a woman's power is most valuable when she's using it to benefit others.

It's a huge issue, this issue of self-esteem.

Fantastic response, ES. The parts in bold I find particularly intriguing, especially as I have no kids of my own.

I think my mother felt threatened by me, now that consider her behaviour. I recall a conversation she had with me upon discovering that I was having sex with my boyfriend. What sticks out most of all is that she was angry because she never had that option as a teenager, there was no easily accessible female birth control back then. Isn't that funny? That she wasn't shocked that I was no longer a virgin, instead she was mad that I got to have the fun she was never able to?

And there was always a very tangible sense that she was living vicariously through me and therefore wanted me to behave as she would. It was repressive.

I would also like to suggest that class distinctions also affect the interactions among women. In my experience, groups of women from different socio-economic groups interact with each other differently.

Yes, I think you're right.

 

[BiBunny]

No, I'm not surprised this doesn't match your experience, from what I know of you, OSG. It is something I've observed on numerous occasions, though and I think that women who regularly associate with groups of other women in a friendly environment might concur.

I think of it as "no one wants to eat the last cookie" behaviour. You know, when there's a group of women and only one *delicious* cookie left on the plate and no one wants to eat it because they think it would be rude? So everyone just works hard at ignoring it and when finally someone speaks up everyone pretends they're full or something to avoid looking greedy. That sort of behaviour. (Just an example, there may be plenty of women here who would eat that last cookie - I sure as heck would).

I'm not too sure what the problem is here. I'd rather someone else have the cookie and be happy than me have it and someone else be miserable. Because, really, in the grand scheme of things, the cookie ain't that big a deal. If I'm going to annoy people, I'm going to do it for a much better reason.

 

[Keroin]

I'm not too sure what the problem is here. I'd rather someone else have the cookie and be happy than me have it and someone else be miserable. Because, really, in the grand scheme of things, the cookie ain't that big a deal. If I'm going to annoy people, I'm going to do it for a much better reason.

LOL. The problem is that while you may be genuinely happy to give up the cookie, there are likely five other women who genuinely want the cookie but who will never say that because it would be selfish, socially wrong, blah, blah, blah.

I say, speak up! Declare your desire for the cookie! Play rock, paper, scissors for it if you must but if you want the cookie, gosh darn it all, do not pretend otherwise!!!

(Me, I usually distract everyone by lighting a small fire in a nearby room, then I swipe the cookie while everyone's gone).

 

[midwestyankee]

Or just give me the fucking cookies and everyone will be happy.

 

[Keroin]

Or just give me the fucking cookies and everyone will be happy.

You can have my cookie when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.