A serious discussion about BDSM and weight

[wildone28]

This thread infuriates me to no end. You are just being judgemental toward one set of people.

God help anyone that is overweight or a little bit heavy. People can not help how they are built. They can't help what happens with their bodies.

You are judging people for appearances, lumping them all in one group. That is ludricous and uncalled for.

I found it very hard to be judged for something that I have worked on all my life. I have done all the diets I have worked out but yet yes I am still what you would call overweight.

Get over it.

And remember judge ye least ye be judged.

 

[Recidiva]

This thread infuriates me to no end. You are just being judgemental toward one set of people.

God help anyone that is overweight or a little bit heavy. People can not help how they are built. They can't help what happens with their bodies.

You are judging people for appearances, lumping them all in one group. That is ludricous and uncalled for.

I found it very hard to be judged for something that I have worked on all my life. I have done all the diets I have worked out but yet yes I am still what you would call overweight.

Get over it.

And remember judge ye least ye be judged.

This is something that Lit is helping me with.

I think being intolerant of the intolerant makes me...intolerant. And I think the thread starter is far from malicious. I think she wants to see positive change and doing it the way she knows how. Intentions count.

As mentioned earlier in the thread - weird irony.

So judge not the judger of the judged lest ye be...?

There's something about walking in the judger's moccasins too, but it's harder to put them on sometimes.

I feel like I should say Namaste or something.

 

[castagnus]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand . . . not all fat people eat all the time. Not eating enough can cause weight gain and lack fo weight loss if it's a problem you've had. It's called the 'feast or famine syndrom' or something like that. Your body thinks there's a famine so it holds on to everything it can to keep you alive when there's NO food. I rarely make it over 1000 calories a day, and I GAIN weight.

Counter-intuitive - but it led me to look into this fact a bit more deeply. It appears that for some, taking in fewer calories causes hormones to be released which preserve body fat - I would imagine by making one sluggish and not willing to expend physical energy.

Having had no medical experience and being a physicist by training, this is probably overly simplistic: During normal activity, the adult human body uses energy at the rate of 100 Watts which amounts to 9 calories/hour or about 200 calories/day. With vigorous, continous, daily excercise, this can be increased to over 500 calories/day. It would follow that if one could muster enough will power to overcome the lethargy induced by those evil weighth-preserving hormones, while limiting one's intake to less than 1,000 calories/day, one should be able to over-come this unfortunate "feast or famine" syndrome and loose weighth. But I guess it is undoubtedly not that simple.

May I also share a personal observation, referred to as "anecdotal" in the medical profession: sometimes, as a result of not getting enough excercise and eating too much during business travel I may gain 10 to 15 lbs. I then return home being hungrier than usual and my quick cure for that is to get up early in the morning and hike for hours every day through the woods on my Kentucky property while having only an apple for breakfast. I find that vigorous activity causes me to have almost no apetite - one would expect the opposite because one has just burned away a lot of fuel - but that is the way it is for me. It may be the reverse of the "feast or famine" syndrome that you mentioned. But within several days, I would be back at my "nornmal" level of 160 lbs.

I am temperamentally against ingesting any kind of poison, aka medicine, and have been lucky enough to be able to enjoy a healthy life without requiring any drugs whatsoever, not even aspirin. Reading some of the horror stories in this thread as a result of taking drugs, I can only thank my lucky stars for my healthy genes endowed to me by my parents.

 

[Recidiva]

Counter-intuitive - but it led me to look into this fact a bit more deeply. It apears that for some, taking in fewer calories causes hormones to be released which preserve body fat - I would imagine by making one sluggish and not willing to expend physical energy.

Having had no medical experience and being a physicist by training, this is probably overly simplistic: During normal activity, the adult human body uses energy at the rate of 100 Watts which amounts to 9 calories/hour or about 200 calories/day. With vigorous, continous, daily excercise, this can be increased to over 500 calories/day. It would follow that if one could muster enough will power to overcome the lethargy induced by those evil weighth-preserving hormones, while limiting one's intake to less than 1,000 calories/day, one should be able to over-come this unfortunate "feast or famine" syndrome and loose weighth. But I guess it is undoubtedly not that simple.

May I also share a personal observation, referred to as "anecdotal" in the medical profession: sometimes, as a result of not getting enough excercise and eating too much during business travel I may gain 10 to 15 lbs. I then return home being hungrier than usual and my quick cure for that is to get up early in the morning and hike for hours every day through the woods on my Kentucky property while having only an apple for breakfast. I find that vigorous activity causes me to have almost no apetite - one would expect the opposite because one has just burned away a lot of fuel - but that is the way it is for me. It may be the reverse of the "feast or famine" syndrome that you mentioned. But within several days, I would be back at my "nornmal" level of 160 lbs.

I am temperamentally against ingesting any kind of poison, aka medicine, and have been lucky enough to be able to enjoy a healthy life without requiring any drugs whatsoever, not even aspirin. Reading some of the horror stories in this thread as a result of taking drugs, I can only thank my lucky stars for my healthy genes endowed to me by my parents.

I did not get healthy genes from my parents unfortunately. So I've had to invest in poison.

Without Imitrex, I'd have killed myself. So I'm just going to tip my hat to modern medicine.

There are so many factors, the feast or famine, and particularly I'm prone to "OH MY GOD WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A BABY, QUICK, EAT! EAT! EAT!" every cycle that's akin to being a vampire that needs blood. "No, I'm not going to have a baby. I'm on the pill." "EAT! EAT! OH GOD YOU'RE GOING TO DIE IF YOU DON'T EAT! AAAAUGH!"

Again I think the human endocrine system has some sucker punches. Mean ones. Telling millions of years of evolution to pipe down can be difficult.

I've managed to lose about 40 pounds in the last three or so years. So this is a subject near and dear to my heart. Without my endocrine system reasonably well under control I can't do that. Without sleep help from Benadryl I'd be insomniac. So there's just basic things missing in my brain and no amount of clean living fixes it. But clean living and supplementation does. I need that poison. In order to have any level of success in maintaining a proper body weight it's a fight every day, and probably takes up 80% of my effort just to maintain. If I don't wage this battle every single day and adjust and wait to be ambushed, I will gain weight.

I've got zero bad habits and I'm perfectly healthy according to all tests my doctors can perform. I just have to work at it a LOT harder than other body types. So I just barely manage to eat enough food according to BMI indexes, every bite is charted and composed, and food pyramids worked out to get the right servings...and I still have to exercise about 30 to 90 minutes a day just to break even.

Paradoxically my son is stick thin, has no appetite whatsoever and thinks food is irrelevant. I have the opposite problem with him in that I can't get him to consume enough calories in a day without chasing him with something sharp. Like my tongue.

So genetics varies wildly.

Please be nice to the poison consumers. We're people too.

 

[rida]

Let's distinguish about the morbidly overweight and the chunky and slightly overweight population. I'm talking about the level were your health and quality of life is affected.

Yes, blaming them ridicule them for being fat is judgmental and unfair. But let's face it, very few people were born that way. And only few developed health conditions at a very young age that triggered their weight gain and medical inability to loose it.

More often than not, unfortunately a bit trigger for obesity is the unhealthy eating habit that are learned at a young age and the unhealthy diet that damage a child healthy metabolism. If you have been obese as a child, even if you loose weight once you are in your teen or even later, you have a higher chance of becoming overweight again and a harder time loosing any gain.

Once you are an adult and all the medical conditions have been triggered, in many cases there is indeed little that can be done.

It is not easy to get a child to always eat healthy or avoid junk. But learning moderation, a little self control while young goes a long way to prevent triggering such health problem that will in turn trigger obesity.

As a little anedottical reference, there are less obese Japaneses than Americans. When one of my kid was going to an American run summer camp I would pack her kid friendly but yet somewhat healthy lunches. She complained every single day because her American friends always had potato chips, candies, chocolate bars. The healthier American lunches were PBJ. The Japanese kids on the other hand had a much more variated lunch box, sometimes very healthy (rice, little meat, vegetable, fruits) and some other more junkier (fried chicken & mayonnaise sandwiches).

 

[Recidiva]

Let's distinguish about the morbidly overweight and the chunky and slightly overweight population. I'm talking about the level were your health and quality of life is affected.

Yes, blaming them ridicule them for being fat is judgmental and unfair. But let's face it, very few people were born that way. And only few developed health conditions at a very young age that triggered their weight gain and medical inability to loose it.

More often than not, unfortunately a bit trigger for obesity is the unhealthy eating habit that are learned at a young age and the unhealthy diet that damage a child healthy metabolism. If you have been obese as a child, even if you loose weight once you are in your teen or even later, you have a higher chance of becoming overweight again and a harder time loosing any gain.

Once you are an adult and all the medical conditions have been triggered, in many cases there is indeed little that can be done.

It is not easy to get a child to always eat healthy or avoid junk. But learning moderation, a little self control while young goes a long way to prevent triggering such health problem that will in turn trigger obesity.

As a little anedottical reference, there are less obese Japaneses than Americans. When one of my kid was going to an American run summer camp I would pack her kid friendly but yet somewhat healthy lunches. She complained every single day because her American friends always had potato chips, candies, chocolate bars. The healthier American lunches were PBJ. The Japanese kids on the other hand had a much more variated lunch box, sometimes very healthy (rice, little meat, vegetable, fruits) and some other more junkier (fried chicken & mayonnaise sandwiches).

I don't buy that kids don't get a taste for the sweet stuff early on. I've tasted breast milk.

And Sumo wrestlers are revered in Japan. What's with that?

 

[rida]

I don't buy that kids don't get a taste for the sweet stuff early on. I've tasted breast milk.

And Sumo wrestlers are revered in Japan. What's with that?

I guess I came out the wrong way.
I never said that if only we did not give children sweets they would not be fat. All I was trying to say is that if we manage to give them a varied diet and teach moderation and help them not get obese when young, they will have a higher chance to not be obese when grown ups.

As for your breast milk and taste for sweet point, infant are genetically wired to like sweet stuff and dislike bitter stuff. The reason being that in the wild a lot of poisoning stuff is bitter. For the same reason, the taste buds for bitter are at the back of the tongue so that at the last moment they can trigger a rejection reflex. Unfortunately that is also the reason why it is hard to get children to like vegetables.

As for the Sumo wrestlers, yes, they are big. They actually eat 4 humongous meals a day (balanced meals, by the way). They also exercise a lot so there is a lot of muscle in those bodies. Interesting enough most sumo wrestler after retiring loose almost all of their weight and are at the end just a bit bigger than the average population (they often also tend to be taller).
There is a famous ex-sumo wrestler that has not only not lost any of his weight but actually even gained more inspite of dieting and so for. He is originally from Hawaii (Japanese descent). I don't know how much that has to do with his inability to loose weight, but I found it interesting.

Hope I was more clear this time.

 

[Recidiva]

I guess I came out the wrong way.
I never said that if only we did not give children sweets they would not be fat. All I was trying to say is that if we manage to give them a varied diet and teach moderation and help them not get obese when young, they will have a higher chance to not be obese when grown ups.

As for your breast milk and taste for sweet point, infant are genetically wired to like sweet stuff and dislike bitter stuff. The reason being that in the wild a lot of poisoning stuff is bitter. For the same reason, the taste buds for bitter are at the back of the tongue so that at the last moment they can trigger a rejection reflex. Unfortunately that is also the reason why it is hard to get children to like vegetables.

As for the Sumo wrestlers, yes, they are big. They actually eat 4 humongous meals a day (balanced meals, by the way). They also exercise a lot so there is a lot of muscle in those bodies. Interesting enough most sumo wrestler after retiring loose almost all of their weight and are at the end just a bit bigger than the average population (they often also tend to be taller).
There is a famous ex-sumo wrestler that has not only not lost any of his weight but actually even gained more inspite of dieting and so for. He is originally from Hawaii (Japanese descent). I don't know how much that has to do with his inability to loose weight, but I found it interesting.

Hope I was more clear this time.

All well thought out points and you didn't at all come across the wrong way. I'm just adding my little peanut gallery thoughts.

I think you're right about the difficulty of refining childhood palates.

Go Akebono! (I have seen a few documentaries on him)

After years of watching Iron Chef I have a respect for the Japanese palate. And a huge insight into national pride of cuisine and how all their stuff is much better than anyone else's stuff. And it has served them well. Maintaining their ethnic diet is great for them.

But I have sympathy for Morimoto, who gets insulted for "Americanizing" his meals and bastardizing them. All progress is frowned upon by some.

I think Americans suffer also from cultural elitism, always being told we suck and we have no culture of our own.

However, I've been able to enjoy a diversity and welcoming culture that has given me access to all the world's cuisines without prejudice about which one is better than the other, but a deep joy of discovery and fusion.

If I can do it, others can. The fact that some don't, just means...others don't.

My American experience is about diving into as many cultures as possible, which is easy as they're in close proximity, and being able to pick and choose what I like.

Japanese traditional culture considers that to be absolute heresy. Only their style of food is right, and only if prepared traditionally.

That seeps into American culture, with those who are defending their culture from modern invasion taking heavy shots at Americanization.

 

[CutieMouse]

And we keep saying that it's the new thing, but I don't think it's new. I think that there's a specific way that you're encouraged to look, and if you don't you are treated badly. There was a time when obesity was thought of as attractive, and it was the skinny girls who had a hard time of it.

Heck, Marilyn Monroe used to be thought of as flat out sexy (I still think she is). She wore what would be a size 12 these days. (I checked that with snopes - she didn't wear a 16, but a 12.) The next generation people in a 12 might be thought of as sexy, too.

Every time this argument comes up, I correct it. Monroe wore a vintage 12, which would have had a waist measurement of about 22" - 23". I wear a modern size 8 (sometimes 10), and in vintage? Size 16, at best - which is a 27" waist.

 

[Etoile]

Every time this argument comes up, I correct it. Monroe wore a vintage 12, which would have had a waist measurement of about 22" - 23". I wear a modern size 8 (sometimes 10), and in vintage? Size 16, at best - which is a 27" waist.

It's explained quite simply on Snopes. Here's MM's measurements:

Height: 5'5.5"
Weight: 118-140 lbs
Bust: 35-37 in
Waist: 22-23 in
Hips: 35-36 in
Bra size: 36D

If you have a 22-23 inch waist, you are skinny. Period. Now, we all know she was curvy, hence the boobs and hips being a larger measurement. But fat? No. Dress size is completely irrelevant here; as CM says, sizes have changed. The important thing is her measurements. And those, my friends, speak of a skinny person, not a chunky one.

The difference between MM and today's models is that MM had curves. She wasn't heavy by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that she was curvy and today's models are straight up and down. Except for Iman. I love Iman.

 

[Oceanmother]

another theory...

Excuse me if I am repeating issues already raised, after about three pages of reading I wanted to add my own 2 cents before I forgot what it was.
An interesting and well presented topic by the way.

I am not sure whether BDSM attracts a disproportionate number of overweight people, in my own experience I would be inclined to say that it does to a certain extent, but that experience is rather limited.

The theory I wanted to put forward is this...could this perhaps partly be a matter of indulgence?

BDSM practitioners, by and large, are more in touch with their sexual desires and appetites, and the ones you are likely to come into contact with are actively indulging in them by attending munches, or participating in forums such as these.

It could be that these same people are more likely to indulge in their desires and cravings in other areas, such as for rich and decadent foods?
I don't mean this as an accusation, and I by no means want to label all those who are overweight as greedy or indulgent. Rather it is an an observation of my own struggle to stay at a healthy weight, despite being physically active.

I am not skinny for a number of reasons, but mainly because I love food. I know I have a tendency to indulge in rich, delicious foods. I cook elaborate meals incorporating rich sauces and decadent desserts.

I make brownies... and I lick the bowl.

If the craving for a whopper with cheese and a milkshake takes me.... I indulge.

I am also pretty active, I swim, and do yoga, and walk whenever it is not too hot, and so keep my weight relatively in control (although I would love to drop 15-20lbs). If I denied myself the food I loved I would be skinny, but where is the fun in that?

The same applies to my sexual appetites... I like to indulge, elaborately and at length whenever I can,
but of course I do draw limits on anything that would be destructive to myself or my marriage,
the same way as I walk the line between indulging in food, and being a downright glutton.

There are countless comparisons between the acts of eating and sex...
Are the two linked? I certainly believe they are in many people.


(Apologies for not adding the paragraph about not meaning to generalise... I'm a slow typer and obviously I know that this does not apply to everyone, but surely not everyone who is overweight is suffering from a hormonal imbalance or other condition?)

 

[fishercat]

Well, time for someone with a weight ticker in their siggie to chime in...

Most of this discussion has been really interesting to me, and I applaud those who have contributed.

I have to say that Recidiva's posts have made massive sense to me. If you've read any of Michael Pollan's work on eating and food, you'll know where I'm coming from. It's easy to say that we are suffering from an epidemic of obesity, but if you believe that obesity is caused by laziness and greed, you're essentially saying that the entire world is slowly becoming lazy and greedy to the point of eating itself to death. I don't buy it. Rather, I believe that our industrialized food choices have rendered a lot of people incapable of eating in a way that won't make them fat.

I'm not making excuses. And I'm not saying that genetics, disease, medications or psychological issues can't contribute or add to weight issues. In my case weight is very much a familial and psychological issue. I know how to eat right, but my weight is the wall that protects me from hurtful people, and most of my life I haven't had the tools to take off the weight and feel safe at the same time. I'm learning though ...

I guess what I'm saying is that this is a complex issue, and it won't be solved by telling people to just eat less. Speaking as a fat person, duh, we know that. It's just that for many of us, it's not that simple. Between poor food choices offered by the industrialized western diet, a sedentary cubicle lifestyle, and other things that contribute to a shift in eating and exercise, we have a lot of work to do. All of us.

Just my 2 cents ...

 

[Netzach]

I'm sorry that my post offended you so much. If something amuses me, I'll chuckle. I wasn't standing in front of the woman laughing my ass off and I freely admit that I didn't stand there and consider all the possible medical reasons why she could be stomping around like a baby elephant in head to toe Burberry. It's not my problem, I don't know her and I'm not likely to, it was just that the incongruous combination of her haute couture and massive size made me smile. So flame me... oh yeah, you did.

I am well aware that thin does not equal healthy and I made the same comparisons that you did between over-weightness and drink/nicotine abuse further down the thread. I don't consider myself to be a compassion free zone or a judgemental bully just because I found someone's appearance amusing. People often find my decision to be vegan hysterical and I go right ahead and let them laugh.

The fact remains that the majority of obese people in the western world are either gluttons or not addressing issues like metabolism, medication or food intolerance in the way that they should. Obesity appears to be one of the last bastions of utter insanity when it comes to health. You can tell a chain smoker or alcoholic that they're being stupid and self destructive but if you offend an obese person these days it's somehow completely judgemental and unfair. Nobody ever considers that half the planet is starving to death so that the other half can keep themselves in MacDonalds and Liposuction. As a global 'epidemic' obesity is simply obscene.

I have seen first hand what morbidly obese people go through when their weight becomes such a debilitating condition that every basic human function becomes pretty much impossible. I have seen a person loaded onto the floor of an emptied ambulance by a fire truck and hoisted out again at the other end. I saw that person lifted by a heavy duty hoist onto a huge bed that was weight tested to 600lb, I have treated bedsores caused by morbid obesity, diabetes, poor circulation, heart disease, skin tearing, chronic bronchitis/asthma, apnea, dangerously high cholesterol/blood pressure, all that crap. I have been part of a team of the 8 staff required to turn them in bed, hoist them onto a gigantic commode or change the diaper on the ass they can't wipe anymore. The knowledge that someone is capable of putting themselves in that awful situation because of a pathological addiction to food just completely horrifies me.

The question is though, at what point do you risk offending someone by saying 'your lifestyle and diet are a very bad idea and you must change your ways asap in order to avoid serious health problems and an early death.' At what stage of an obese person's weight gain do you cease to care whether their size is a lifestyle choice or where they can shop for G strings and start being the voice of doom? You wouldn't watch an alcoholic drink themselves to death without trying to intervene, why should obesity be any different?

I'm not talking here about people with glandular or metabolic problems who are on the cuddly side of their BMI. I'm talking about the very small percentage of people who are capable of eating themselves to death. But when does one become the other? At what point does a BBW become a food addict? There are no clear lines in the sand, which is why I firmly believe that overweight people should be warned about their lifestyle and encouraged to live more healthily as early as possible. Being diplomatic and polite until someone is as wide as they are tall is the coward's way out and a huge disservice to people who cannot maintain a healthy weight, whatever the underlying cause. If someone is drinking too heavily, you don't wait until they're sinking a litre of vodka for breakfast before you talk to them about it and encourage them to seek treatment.

Sure, they have every right to tell you to fuck off and mind your own business, but wouldn't you rather have tried?

Do you think that an alcoholic who can't function for a minute without a drink has NO IDEA they're harming their longevity?

At what point do you think someone is sufficiently "informed" by the polite people on the street? Do you habitually suggest AA to the barfly next to you or is that the job of loved ones doctors and people in the *personal* circle of the person with the problem.

 

[Netzach]

The fact remains that the majority of obese people in the western world are either gluttons or not addressing issues like metabolism, medication or food intolerance in the way that they should. Obesity appears to be one of the last bastions of utter insanity when it comes to health. You can tell a chain smoker or alcoholic that they're being stupid and self destructive but if you offend an obese person these days it's somehow completely judgemental and unfair. Nobody ever considers that half the planet is starving to death so that the other half can keep themselves in MacDonalds and Liposuction. As a global 'epidemic' obesity is simply obscene.

Know what else is obscene?

If you take a stroll around the 'hood of the US, if you and rida take a drive through some places that are neither subrub nor downtown business district you will notice that there's NOPLACE to enjoy fine vegan dining, nor even some produce that isn't completely wilted and 4x what I pay for it in my neighborhood.

No. There's fast food, and what you would consider a cornershop in the UK. Newspapers, tobacco, cheap alcohol, and hostess cakes.

Then of course, there are the public schools. I did afterschool teaching in one which had 99 percent breakfast participation. IE: everyone who went there was poor. There was a snack break. The snack break was basically quarter water (sugar water) and fat-loaded crackers masquerading as "not chips, really" or cookies. These guys get the contracts to "feed" the children of the poor.

So not only are we deliberately killing the poor, we're then vilifying them while we do it. The urban (insult ephitet, white trash counts here too) can now be the JOKE of the western world while they suffer and then we decide their health care is a drain on the system.

My overweightness is at least the outcome of a series of complex decisions and emotions that fall one way or another, for which I refuse to feel like I'm a "weaker" person than anyone.

Theirs is simply not having any other options which are workable in their reality.

 

[Recidiva]

Do you think that an alcoholic who can't function for a minute without a drink has NO IDEA they're harming their longevity?

At what point do you think someone is sufficiently "informed" by the polite people on the street? Do you habitually suggest AA to the barfly next to you or is that the job of loved ones doctors and people in the *personal* circle of the person with the problem.

This touches on another point that forms a core of my beliefs and practices.

Learning is a choice and teaching is a privilege.

You can't force someone to learn and you can't assume the mantle of teacher without agreement between two people.

It's really part of a nonconsent issue if you put it in context.

 

[Netzach]

Counter-intuitive - but it led me to look into this fact a bit more deeply. It appears that for some, taking in fewer calories causes hormones to be released which preserve body fat - I would imagine by making one sluggish and not willing to expend physical energy.

Having had no medical experience and being a physicist by training, this is probably overly simplistic: During normal activity, the adult human body uses energy at the rate of 100 Watts which amounts to 9 calories/hour or about 200 calories/day. With vigorous, continous, daily excercise, this can be increased to over 500 calories/day. It would follow that if one could muster enough will power to overcome the lethargy induced by those evil weighth-preserving hormones, while limiting one's intake to less than 1,000 calories/day, one should be able to over-come this unfortunate "feast or famine" syndrome and loose weighth. But I guess it is undoubtedly not that simple.

May I also share a personal observation, referred to as "anecdotal" in the medical profession: sometimes, as a result of not getting enough excercise and eating too much during business travel I may gain 10 to 15 lbs. I then return home being hungrier than usual and my quick cure for that is to get up early in the morning and hike for hours every day through the woods on my Kentucky property while having only an apple for breakfast. I find that vigorous activity causes me to have almost no apetite - one would expect the opposite because one has just burned away a lot of fuel - but that is the way it is for me. It may be the reverse of the "feast or famine" syndrome that you mentioned. But within several days, I would be back at my "nornmal" level of 160 lbs.

I am temperamentally against ingesting any kind of poison, aka medicine, and have been lucky enough to be able to enjoy a healthy life without requiring any drugs whatsoever, not even aspirin. Reading some of the horror stories in this thread as a result of taking drugs, I can only thank my lucky stars for my healthy genes endowed to me by my parents.

Good genes are something to be happy about.

When you decide to go onto prednisone it's only because there's something even scarier standing behind that particular incarnation of Satan.

 

[castagnus]

I did not get healthy genes from my parents unfortunately. So I've had to invest in poison.

Please be nice to the poison consumers. We're people too.

Rather unexpected plea from the author of TURNABOUT", which I thought was hot! Thank you for this story - I look forward to reading more of your creations.

The more I think of the terrible side effects of drugs relating to weighth issues , the more I am tempted to try to persuade one of my medical friends, a practisioner of "Administering Poison", to carefully monitor some controlled experiments where I combine a near starvation diet with a daily exhaustive workout regime without the use of drugs. But upon further thought, bearing in mind the awesome power of the FDA to say NO to anything that does not benefit the drug companies and being very cognizant of the nemesis of most experimenters, that "Nature is very Generous with Negative Results", and given my natural laziness, I'll just say Nah! Anyway, where would I get volunteers ?

 

[Recidiva]

Rather unexpected plea from the author of TURNABOUT", which I thought was hot! Thank you for this story - I look forward to reading more of your creations.

The more I think of the terrible side effects of drugs relating to weighth issues , the more I am tempted to try to persuade one of my medical friends, a practisioner of "Administering Poison", to carefully monitor some controlled experiments where I combine a near starvation diet with a daily exhaustive workout regime without the use of drugs. But upon further thought, bearing in mind the awesome power of the FDA to say NO to anything that does not benefit the drug companies and being very cognizant of the nemesis of most experimenters, that "Nature is very Generous with Negative Results", and given my natural laziness, I'll just say Nah! Anyway, where would I get volunteers ?

LOL!

Thanks. Yes, my brain is an interesting place. Thank you. I range from romantic meltaway to vicious bitch. That made me smile.

There's good stuff and bad stuff in medicine. Just like my brain.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I'm not going to respond to specific posts this time, but say a couple things about some of them and then let it go. There were a few posts in the mix that were of the type I expected to get. We can't have any kind of discourse about weight in our society because it always comes back to the idea that it's not done with compassion and understanding. I disagree. I think that I've tried very hard not to offend anyone, but they are offended all the same because I said something about weight. It wouldn't have mattered what it was that I said, those people would have been offended anyway. So to those I'm not really going to respond because you can't have any kind of communication with people who react in emotion just based on the topic. I think that no matter how this is approached in the media or the health care field, people will be offended. That's how it is.

And Gracie, just to note one thing, in AZ people DO make loud comments to smokers. And the homeless. And the panhandlers. Maybe that's one difference between the city and smaller towns, or maybe it's just my city, but it does happen all the time. And the same basic principles apply there as well - we don't know what caused that person to be doing that thing they are doing, and so passing judgment is the same as it is for the overweight.

Using the example of the munch, which is really what finally made me post this, was a bad idea because it focused too much of the discussion on something that was really in the grand scheme of my thoughts fairly inconsequential. And it made people focus on what I said about that rather than my point.

Cat, I will address your post directly, but only to say that you are pulling all kinds of comments out of context and not listening to the discussion as a whole to point out that you believe I am biased completely and living in a fantasy. That's okay, that's something I see you do often. So I'm going to skip it.

As to the rest, how will we as a society ever get a handle on the problem of weight-caused health issues if we can't have the discussion? The reason the thread is titled 'BDSM and weight' is because I'm specifically talking about how clinical obesity seems to be becoming the norm in BDSM and I wondered how that affects a lot of things, not the least of which is impact play. I'm not talking about the person who is a little 'chunky', as someone said earlier. Who might be 30 or 40 pounds overweight. I'm talking about people who are clinically obese.

Now, I realize from first hand experience that a very large number of people who are obese are that way for a variety of reasons, not all of which are directly related to food and inactivity. As I've stated, I have both friends and family with those issues. I, myself, have suffered from some of those issues. As I stated above. Numerous times. I'm not some skinny girl who has no idea what it's like to be seriously overweight. I've been there.

So here's the deal. Especially for Cat who has read things into some of my comments that weren't there. My decision to stop dating at the moment was a combination of things, largely tied to the way people view honesty and openness on the internet. NOT because the people I seem to keep meeting are overweight and sedentary, but because they keep lying about it, among other things. People present themselves as one thing when in fact they are something else entirely. When I talk to someone who says he loves to hike and go out to the lake, and it turns out the last time he took a hike in the mountains was in 1999, and now he couldn't hike a 1/4 mile without having to take a break, you bet I'm going to have a problem with that. He lied to me. And the lie just spills over into other things. I actually had one guy tell me that worked out at the gym 5 days a week and ran every morning before work. It turned out that he didn't do that at all. He planned to start doing that so that he could lose the 75 pounds he had gained. None of them had health issues that caused those problems. And when I asked one guy why he lied about it, he said because he thought I'd like him anyway but not if I knew he needed to lose almost 100 pounds. I didn't walk away because he was overweight. I walked away because he lied. No, I'm not attracted to someone that overweight. For all of the reasons I've stated above. And of course, his take on it was strictly about weight. Because that was where he was coming from. I'm sure that he didn't get my point about lying and probably lied to the next girl.

So why is it that it's not okay to talk about that? Oh yeah, because I'll offend somebody. The last person I dated for any length of time was 40 pounds overweight. He was physically active, and we enjoyed a lot of hiking and just being outdoors together. He wasn't sedentary, he was just like a lot of us who are busy and live alone, and eat on the fly, and just don't really get much exercise. We dated for about 3 months before someone from his past came back into his life and he chose to give that a go again. His weight didn't bother me. We did lots of things together and had a lot in common. He wanted to be active, he, like me, just didn't have someone to be active with. So I'm not some fat bigot sitting here in judgment, even though everyone would like to paint me as such.

I think that we are masters at lying to ourselves. So I'll accept the possibility that I am lying to myself about my purpose in all this. I'm open to that. We're all human. So I won't for a second discount that my issues may have nothing to do with anything other than personal appearance. Several people have tried to convince me of that. Okay, I'll bite. So if that is my purpose, my perspective, does that make my points any less valid? I don't think so.

And yes, we are ALL masters at lying to ourselves. Several people here have admitted, myself included, that they lie to themselves about why they are overweight, and they acknowledge it even to themselves. I did it when I was overweight. The prednisone made me fat, but after that year, I had become someone specific and I did nothing to change who I had become. Because I got something out of being so heavy. My ex-husband left me alone. It was an awful relationship of pretty serious emotional abuse, so being fat gave me a way out. Sure, I still took his abuse, but I didn't have to have sex with him. It wasn't until I truly came to terms with all of that, began losing the weight and healing emotionally, that I finally was able to leave him.

And I find it funny that I've outlined my own personal struggle with both weight - being pretty fat and being way too thin - and body image, and people still believe that my purpose is to attack. Can't win. Not if the subject is weight.

To comment on one thing that Velvet said about a very heavy girl who was dressed to the 9s. I worked for a woman who was probably 80-100 pounds overweight. And she dressed classy. No matter where we were going or what we were doing, she was immaculate. I didn't think her weight took anything away from that. In fact, being around her made me want to make myself look better. Because she was always so polished and put together. I like to see people who take pride in their physical appearance, no matter their size. And I think more overweight people don't because they don't feel good about themselves. I know I still minimize my physical appearance - no makeup, straight hair, jeans and t-shirt. I have come to realize that my dress mirrors my thoughts about myself. And so am working on that.

I have to say that I really appreciate those who have tried to have a real, honest discussion about the issue. And how people see it. And how it can affect things. I'm impressed that so many people have been able to come to this thread and really talk about it, even knowing it's a painful topic, and be open and honest and not attacking.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Well, time for someone with a weight ticker in their siggie to chime in...

Most of this discussion has been really interesting to me, and I applaud those who have contributed.

I have to say that Recidiva's posts have made massive sense to me. If you've read any of Michael Pollan's work on eating and food, you'll know where I'm coming from. It's easy to say that we are suffering from an epidemic of obesity, but if you believe that obesity is caused by laziness and greed, you're essentially saying that the entire world is slowly becoming lazy and greedy to the point of eating itself to death. I don't buy it. Rather, I believe that our industrialized food choices have rendered a lot of people incapable of eating in a way that won't make them fat.

I'm not making excuses. And I'm not saying that genetics, disease, medications or psychological issues can't contribute or add to weight issues. In my case weight is very much a familial and psychological issue. I know how to eat right, but my weight is the wall that protects me from hurtful people, and most of my life I haven't had the tools to take off the weight and feel safe at the same time. I'm learning though ...

I guess what I'm saying is that this is a complex issue, and it won't be solved by telling people to just eat less. Speaking as a fat person, duh, we know that. It's just that for many of us, it's not that simple. Between poor food choices offered by the industrialized western diet, a sedentary cubicle lifestyle, and other things that contribute to a shift in eating and exercise, we have a lot of work to do. All of us.

Just my 2 cents ...

Thanks, Cat. I happen to agree. Just changing eating habits won't solve the problem. Because there are lots of things tied up in being overweight. I wasn't able to lose my excess weight until I came to terms with all of them. Just as I wasn't able to gain weight and stop starving myself in my 20s until I came to terms with why I was starving myself. Lots of things come into play that cause it on both sides of the spectrum. I've been on both sides. So I know firsthand.

Congrats on your weightloss thus far! Way to go!

 

[Recidiva]

I've enjoyed the discussion and usually it's only the really boring things that are...really boring conversations.

I probably wouldn't have joined in if it were about the best way to tie your shoes.

 

[BeachGurl2]

*HUG*

What if everyone else blamed you for how you were and for your disease which, to them, clearly was because you couldn't handle stress well?

It kills me that we thought that about him.

Actually, my ex-husband did exactly that. But he was an abuser and my illness gave him the perfect tool. It took me a very long time to get past his comments and actions at that time. I was forced to sleep on the sofa because my weight gain made me snore and because I was too fat for the bed - our bed was a king. My lupus had me bedridden for several months, and I was blamed for things falling apart in the home. If my kids were upset about anything, I was blamed for it automatically because I had become the evil bitch from hell. When I was pregnant with my youngest, prior to being diagnosed with lupus, I had complications and was ordered to bed for 4 months of the pregnancy. He thought that meant I should still be able to cook, shop and clean house. She ended up being 4 weeks early, but healthy. So it all worked out okay. But he even called me fat while I was pregnant. So I do get it.

My point is that I do actually know firsthand all of the arguments that have been presented here. I've lived it.

 

[BeachGurl2]

This is something that Lit is helping me with.

I think being intolerant of the intolerant makes me...intolerant. And I think the thread starter is far from malicious. I think she wants to see positive change and doing it the way she knows how. Intentions count.

As mentioned earlier in the thread - weird irony.

So judge not the judger of the judged lest ye be...?

There's something about walking in the judger's moccasins too, but it's harder to put them on sometimes.

I feel like I should say Namaste or something.

I guess I'm not done quoting others yet, even when I said I wasn't gonna.

Thanks for this, Recidiva. And I agree with the statement I bolded. You can't have a discussion with someone who reacts fully with emotions, whether it's about religion, politics, weight. Topic doesn't matter. And it makes me want to just . . . I don't know. But I try to just walk away. Not worth the effort involved.

 

[Recidiva]

I guess I'm not done quoting others yet, even when I said I wasn't gonna.

Thanks for this, Recidiva. And I agree with the statement I bolded. You can't have a discussion with someone who reacts fully with emotions, whether it's about religion, politics, weight. Topic doesn't matter. And it makes me want to just . . . I don't know. But I try to just walk away. Not worth the effort involved.

Well, you might have noticed. I type fast and effort's free. I have a job online, I'm a sorta captive audience.

I think it's always worth the effort if it gets me to think in new ways and even if it's hard to hear...it rings some bell in the back of my brain and I can follow the sound.

 

[Netzach]

I think that I've tried very hard not to offend anyone, but they are offended all the same because I said something about weight. It wouldn't have mattered what it was that I said, those people would have been offended anyway.

Sorry, it's not up to the person making the statement, whatever it might be, as to whether or not they're offensive statements, offense is in the eye of the affected. I agree that you've done a pretty good job of trying not to be offensive, but a bunch of people have pointed out some fallcies. Fallacies that are rooted in their own personal experiences - I don't get it. Whatever cat, bb, or recidiva had to say about it it's like "yes, but, that's not what I meant, or I ackowledge that there may be other reasons that you might be big BUT that's not what I'm talking about..."


The way these things work is that people say something really offensive about a group of people who are already persecuted enough, those people explain their reality and then it's "gee you're all SO sensitive" turning the pity party back onto the person who made the comment in the first place.

It's not about you. You asked, you are hearing the reality and opinion of real live fat people and it's not jiving with the answers you must have been hoping for on some level. What exactly, are you hoping people tell you?

I'm sure people are offended by my level of offendedness. That's fine. I'm simply explaining how some of these statements strike me, as someone who's done fat/not/fat again, and liked herself OK though the changes and thinks there are other things in the world to worry about more.

Like why the poor don't have real food in their neighborhoods.