anon comment topic from the review thread

[impressive]

having someone who has never painted then telling the painter what's wrong is what I said was absurd.

This comment intrigues me. It would appear that you're then confining your target audience to "experts" and that any other reader/viewer/consumer is inconsequential.

Not agreeing (or disagreeing) -- just rather bemused.

 

[Angeline]

The reason I made the comment was because I once heard a serious radio documentary about fetishes. There were people that got off on latex, leather, even balloons, and all sorts of stuff but, most extraordinary of all, there was a bloke who could only achieve orgasm while laying on, in sight of, or thinking about COBBLESTONES. Truth is stranger than Angeline.

Now, where were those pyjama bottoms?

Ah'm goin to the gym. I don't wear em there.

They're on the bed.

 

[Tathagata]

This comment intrigues me. It would appear that you're then confining your target audience to "experts" and that any other reader/viewer/consumer is inconsequential.

Not agreeing (or disagreeing) -- just rather bemused.

Not at all.
I'm no expert how could I write for one?

Anyone can look at a painting and get whatever they want out of it.
Some may see one thing..others may find something the artist didn't intend at all.

My point ,which seems to be getting lost and misinterpreted is that I , for one,wouldn't take seriously criticism of the
" this is a piece of crap" or " I'd have liked it better if..." from someone who had no experience writing.
To say that their opinion is just as valid as say Eve's or Pat's is ridiculous.


Their reaction is valid..their suggestions may not be.

I hope this explains it finally.

 

[impressive]

My point ,which seems to be getting lost and misinterpreted is that I , for one,wouldn't take seriously criticism of the
" this is a piece of crap" or " I'd have liked it better if..." from someone who had no experience writing.
To say that their opinion is just as valid as say Eve's or Pat's is ridiculous.

Thanks for the clarification. (I think) I now understand and can say I disagree. That, however, is highly individualized. I'm going to look at all feedback as objectively as I possibly can (ego notwithstanding) -- as if, for example, every commentor was Anonymous -- and value (or devalue) it in my mind as constructive (or destructive). Certainly, suggestions from those who've a track record of success would ping my radar, but I cannot just dismiss the constructive comments of a novice or a non-poet/author as without merit.

Actually, in many instances, those may be the very people we're trying to reach as poets and authors; to evoke a visceral response in those who don't write. If we're not succeeding, who is at fault: the writer or the reader? (Okay, at some level - both, depending on intellectual accessibility.)

I guess I just have a more egalitarian view of critique, in general.

 

[PatCarrington]

Thanks for the clarification. (I think) I now understand and can say I disagree. That, however, is highly individualized. I'm going to look at all feedback as objectively as I possibly can (ego notwithstanding) -- as if, for example, every commentor was Anonymous -- and value (or devalue) it in my mind as constructive (or destructive). Certainly, suggestions from those who've a track record of success would ping my radar, but I cannot just dismiss the constructive comments of a novice or a non-poet/author as without merit.

Actually, in many instances, those may be the very people we're trying to reach as poets and authors; to evoke a visceral response in those who don't write. If we're not succeeding, who is at fault: the writer or the reader? (Okay, at some level - both, depending on intellectual accessibility.)

I guess I just have a more egalitarian view of critique, in general.

i don't believe tath said the constructive comments of novices or non-poets/authors are 'without merit,' as you state.

he said he considered them "not as valid." that's a big difference.

to view a novice's opinion on anything as highly as you would a highly experienced person's, someone with a track record....whether it be writing or surgery or cooking, and on and on....is simply not a defensible position, in my opinion.

 

[Tathagata]

Originally Posted by Tathagata
My point ,which seems to be getting lost and misinterpreted is that I , for one,wouldn't take seriously criticism of the
" this is a piece of crap" or " I'd have liked it better if..." from someone who had no experience writing.
To say that their opinion is just as valid as say Eve's or Pat's is ridiculous

but I cannot just dismiss the constructive comments of a novice or a non-poet/author as without merit.

If you consider " this is crap" as constructive criticism and worth taking seriously then by all means do so.

This subject, for me at least, is closed

 

[Tathagata]

i don't believe tath said the constructive comments of novices or non-poets/authors are 'without merit,' as you state.

he said he considered them "not as valid." that's a big difference.

to view a novice's opinion on anything as highly as you would a highly experienced person's, someone with a track record....whether it be writing or surgery or cooking, and on and on....is simply not a defensible position, in my opinion.

Thank you

 

[Angeline]

If you consider " this is crap" as constructive criticism and worth taking seriously then by all means do so.

This subject, for me at least, is closed

Hello.

 

[Fflow]

Very Impressive, Impressive

Thanks for the clarification. (I think) I now understand and can say I disagree. That, however, is highly individualized. I'm going to look at all feedback as objectively as I possibly can (ego notwithstanding) -- as if, for example, every commentor was Anonymous -- and value (or devalue) it in my mind as constructive (or destructive). Certainly, suggestions from those who've a track record of success would ping my radar, but I cannot just dismiss the constructive comments of a novice or a non-poet/author as without merit.

Actually, in many instances, those may be the very people we're trying to reach as poets and authors; to evoke a visceral response in those who don't write. If we're not succeeding, who is at fault: the writer or the reader? (Okay, at some level - both, depending on intellectual accessibility.)

I guess I just have a more egalitarian view of critique, in general.

I had an experience once that, to me, was fascinating. I was coordinating a jurored art show at a gallery I had created. Two paintings received many positive comments from everyone who visited. They were, in fact, the two that sold from that show. A university professor who teaches painting created another piece. She was looking at the work by other artists, and had many negative things to say about those two paintings. Her academic judgment prohibited her from seeing the beauty and meaning that everyone else so easily perceived.

For me, this is perfectly illustrative of what we are discussing. Sometimes, when one is overly burdened with expectations, one simply misses the forest for the trees. When one is focused on technique, syntax, or even spelling it is quite easy to disengage emotionally with the work and fail to find its true meaning. (for clarification's sake, by "true meaning" I do not mean the intended meaning of the author, but the meaning created in the heart and mind of the reader).

The same holds true for feedback. The meaning doesn't come from the writers of the comments, but from within my own mind and heart. I create validity and merit in them, as I do with everything.

I see art and beauty everywhere. I walk through my life with a big smile on my face. Does that mean I'm somehow less discriminating, or simply choosing to live in a slightly different paradigm? That's a rhetorical question and does not require an answer.

I hope that sheds a bit of light on my position.

 

[Angeline]

i don't believe tath said the constructive comments of novices or non-poets/authors are 'without merit,' as you state.

he said he considered them "not as valid." that's a big difference.

to view a novice's opinion on anything as highly as you would a highly experienced person's, someone with a track record....whether it be writing or surgery or cooking, and on and on....is simply not a defensible position, in my opinion.

On the other hand, good constructive criticism by anyone--whether you've ever seen a comment by them before or not--is a welcome addendum to a poem. I'd rather hear something insightful that may well be "you can improve by doing..." from someone whose name I've never seen than 20 "you write beautifully"s from someone I know. Not that I don't appreciate praise. Who doesn't--especially from people one knows and likes--but it's the constructive stuff that makes you reevaluate and grow.

Gosh, I like arguing with you.

 

[PatCarrington]

On the other hand, good constructive criticism by anyone--whether you've ever seen a comment by them before or not--is a welcome addendum to a poem. I'd rather hear something insightful that may well be "you can improve by doing..." from someone whose name I've never seen than 20 "you write beautifully"s from someone I know. Not that I don't appreciate praise. Who doesn't--especially from people one knows and likes--but it's the constructive stuff that makes you reevaluate and grow.

Gosh, I like arguing with you.

that's not an argument with my position.

it's an agreement.

edited, to add these ---->

 

[Angeline]

I had an experience once that, to me, was fascinating. I was coordinating a jurored art show at a gallery I had created. Two paintings received many positive comments from everyone who visited. They were, in fact, the two that sold from that show. A university professor who teaches painting created another piece. She was looking at the work by other artists, and had many negative things to say about those two paintings. Her academic judgment prohibited her from seeing the beauty and meaning that everyone else so easily perceived.

For me, this is perfectly illustrative of what we are discussing. Sometimes, when one is overly burdened with expectations, one simply misses the forest for the trees. When one is focused on technique, syntax, or even spelling it is quite easy to disengage emotionally with the work and fail to find its true meaning. (for clarification's sake, by "true meaning" I do not mean the intended meaning of the author, but the meaning created in the heart and mind of the reader).

The same holds true for feedback. The meaning doesn't come from the writers of the comments, but from within my own mind and heart. I create validity and merit in them, as I do with everything.

I see art and beauty everywhere. I walk through my life with a big smile on my face. Does that mean I'm somehow less discriminating, or simply choosing to live in a slightly different paradigm? That's a rhetorical question and does not require an answer.

I hope that sheds a bit of light on my position.

I understand what you're saying and I agree that art that moves one emotionally is the most effective, but without clarity there is less opportunity to communicate and therefore, imo, less opportunity to allow for the response you describe. I see too many "artists" here and elsewhere justify lack of precision in communication, sloppiness by claiming that they are writing "what they feel from the heart." Well that's all well and good, but if the purpose is to communicate what's in the heart to someone else and that isn't going to happen because of sloppy writing, what's the point of sharing one's art in the first place?

 

[Angeline]

that's not an argument with my position.

it's an agreement.

no it isn't damnit! it's an argument.

 

[Fflow]

Angeline AV

I, for one, want to see Angeline's PJs in her AV. Anyone else agree?

Also, I am a little disappointed that I got no play at all from my lame-ass contortionist joke. *sigh*

 

[PatCarrington]

no it isn't damnit! it's an argument.

no it isn't damnit! (note curse). it's an agreement.


.....this, is an argument.

 

[Angeline]

I, for one, want to see Angeline's PJs in her AV. Anyone else agree?

Also, I am a little disappointed that I got no play at all from my lame-ass contortionist joke. *sigh*

sorry. only the boyfriend gets to see those silly jammy pants.

 

[Angeline]

no it isn't damnit! (note curse). it's an agreement.


.....this, is an argument.

YAY!

 

[PatCarrington]

sorry. only the boyfriend gets to see those silly jammy pants.

....and they're damn sexy.

 

[Angeline]

....and they're damn sexy.

no they're not. lol. he laughs at me in them.

 

[PatCarrington]

no they're not. lol. he laughs at me in them.

you ARE being argumentative today, aren't you.

 

[Angeline]

you ARE being argumentative today, aren't you.

only with you my friend. lol.

 

[flyguy69]

On the other hand, good constructive criticism by anyone--whether you've ever seen a comment by them before or not--is a welcome addendum to a poem. I'd rather hear something insightful that may well be "you can improve by doing..." from someone whose name I've never seen than 20 "you write beautifully"s from someone I know. Not that I don't appreciate praise. Who doesn't--especially from people one knows and likes--but it's the constructive stuff that makes you reevaluate and grow.

Gosh, I like arguing with you.

Sorry, Ange, but this is so cliche.

There are large presumptions in Pat's position, too, of course. In particular that an experienced practitioner is also a good teacher.

But assuming the input we desire is suggestions on improving our craft, an experienced writer will have more to offer than a novice. If the question is simply "do you like this one?" no response is any more or less valid than any other.

Which is the problem with Ray's example. It appears that a great many visitors to the gallery were not knowledgable artists, but liked two paintings there. The one visitor with more experience did not. As long as the novices stay novices, lots paintings get sold. If, however, they grow in their understanding of art the painter is in trouble.

To be discerning is not to miss beauty. It is, in fact, to find it where others may not.

And if popularity is to be the sole criterion for quality then shows like "Stacked" will be on television and grownups will wear cargo pants. Oh, wait....

 

[Fflow]

You're right, of course.

I understand what you're saying and I agree that art that moves one emotionally is the most effective, but without clarity there is less opportunity to communicate and therefore, imo, less opportunity to allow for the response you describe. I see too many "artists" here and elsewhere justify lack of precision in communication, sloppiness by claiming that they are writing "what they feel from the heart." Well that's all well and good, but if the purpose is to communicate what's in the heart to someone else and that isn't going to happen because of sloppy writing, what's the point of sharing one's art in the first place?

Not everyone has the same tools, either to create work, or to perceive it. One can create a master work and many will see it as banal and tedius. Another may create something that is crudely crafted yet, somehow, reaches into the gut and connects with people on a visceral level. Also, as we work, we grow.

The work we create as children may reflect some glimmer of character or promise that, later in life, may find full realization. If those early sparks of creativity are extinguished by critical analysis, that promise may never be realized. I started writing when I was 12 or so. That's given me a good long time to come to where I am now. Some people start down that path at 30, never knowing that they had a voice. Should we tell them we don't want to listen or, instead, encourage and support them in the process so that, inevitably, they will improve with practice? The poem you see as sloppy may be the first frightened expression of a heart seeking freedom.

I agree that there may be a qualitative difference between artistic creations. I also know that these differences are not clearly defined, and very subjective. What strikes you as sloppy may, to someone else, be powerful and eloquent.
Because something does not resonate in your consciousness as meaningful does not mean that it lacks meaning. It just means that it lacks meaning to you.

As for sharing art, that is another interesting question. Why share art of any kind at all, ever? I've pondered this question quite a bit. At the end of the day, I believe the only reasonable and honest answer is: EGO. We want to feel heard, understood, important, creative, intelligent, witty, compassionate, validated, etc... Instead of simply being strong in the truth of who and what we are, we desire external validation, a propping up of our ego by others. This may be cultural. I'm not sure.

Anyway, no more blather from me today. I have work to do.

 

[PatCarrington]

There are large presumptions in Pat's position, too, of course. In particular that an experienced practitioner is also a good teacher.

i did not say that, fly...i don't think.

what i said was if i need carpentry tips, i go to the guy who built that fine deck on my house, and not to my neighbor, whose dog house collapsed a week after he built it, or to Aunt Mabel, who makes great pecan pies but doesn't know a claw from a balpeen.

what are the odds he would give me sounder advice?....100%?....of course not. nothing is.

and with all that wood knowledge, you can be damn sure he ain't cooking my thanksgiving pies.

 

[flyguy69]

i did not say that, fly...i don't think.

what i said was if i need carpentry tips, i go to the guy who built that fine deck on my house, and not to my neighbor, whose dog house collapsed a week after he built it, or to Aunt Mabel, who makes great pecan pies but doesn't know a claw from a balpeen.

what are the odds he would give me sounder advice?....100%?....of course not. nothing is.

and with all that wood knowledge, you can be damn sure he ain't cooking my thanksgiving pies.

I don't think you did either. But I think you are assuming it. And, while you know better than most that it isn't always true, it is a defensible assumption.

If you want to become a better carpenter (rather than to simply fix one item one time) you want the best teacher. And an expereinced carpenter is more likely to be a better teacher than a novice.