anon comment topic from the review thread

[evelyn_carroll]

suck-holes

For a conga line of suck holes
I’d cross more than twenty south poles,
But if it were below zero
I’d not fuck ’em; I’m no wierdo.

E.

 

[Fflow]

clique issue, validity, etc

this is an issue that has surfaced quite often before, so it has certain sensitivites.

You know the old adage, "Where there's smoke, there's fire." If this issue has been raised before, then maybe it should be dealt with, rather than playing an emotional judo game and trying to foist it off onto people who observe it.

Honestly, I don't understand how anyone can overlook the value in honest, heart-felt expression. The idea that a poem's validity comes from a certain indefinable esthetic is, frankly, absurd. What matters most, I think, is one's ability to delve deeply, see clearly, or speak truthfully. We aspire to find our own voices, not mimic or even emulate those of us with recognized talent.

Also, to suggest that a person's reactions to a poem are somehow invalid simply because they don't post poetry of their own is also absurd. Even spelling errors do not invalidate a heart-felt reaction to a work.

Each of us, ideally, enters into a relationship with poems as we read them. They interact with our personality and experience, and produce unique and individual insights. To say that a person's reaction to a poem is invalid, for any reason, is the height of arrogance and snobbery.

When I read a comment written about a poem of mine, I don't care who wrote it. I don't check their credentials, or see if they've posted. I read their words and try to absorb their ideas. Even if I disagree with them, or feel that they missed something, I don't dismiss the comments as invalid. Instead, I find it an opportunity to open dialog and, hopefully, gain some insight into their understanding, and my own.

We don't grow by doing the same thing over and over again. We don't improve our skills by writing in the same style, or by reading the same authors. We don't learn from praise and adulation. We grow by taking risks, by pushing ourselves beyond what feels safe. We improve by stumbling, scraping knees, and getting up again. We learn from honest, heart-felt and constructive criticism.

The best authors here continually surprise me, not with the consistency of their work, but with its variety.

I do go on so.

xoxo

srw/fflow

 

[Tathagata]

You know the old adage, "Where there's smoke, there's fire."

There's also one about beating a dead horse.

 

[Angeline]

There's also one about beating a dead horse.

Feeling a little testy this morning boo boo?

 

[Tathagata]

Feeling a little testy this morning boo boo?

Not at all
just being " valid"

morning sugar beet

 

[Angeline]

Not at all
just being " valid"

morning sugar beet

good morning and namaste' monkey mein.

 

[Tathagata]

good morning and namaste' monkey mein.

you'll be happy to know you are no longer topless and blonde

 

[Angeline]

you'll be happy to know you are no longer topless and blonde

Well to dispel that image totally, I'm wearing a green thermal undershirt and winnie the pooh pajama pants. Sexy, huh?

but I do have new glasses.

 

[Tathagata]

You know the old adage, "Where there's smoke, there's fire." If this issue has been raised before, then maybe it should be dealt with, rather than playing an emotional judo game and trying to foist it off onto people who observe it.

The fact that it has been raised before means we've had all these discussions before.
You are talking about how people " feel"..there aren't going to be black and white answers.
The fact that You have raised this issue, I believe , 3 times now, in my opinion, is moving you from the realm of conscientious do gooder, into the area of whining attention whore.
Just my " valid" opinion.

Honestly, I don't understand how anyone can overlook the value in honest, heart-felt expression. The idea that a poem's validity comes from a certain indefinable esthetic is, frankly, absurd. What matters most, I think, is one's ability to delve deeply, see clearly, or speak truthfully. We aspire to find our own voices, not mimic or even emulate those of us with recognized talent.

and how is " truth" defined?
and honest?
I think these words you use and the things they stand are , themselves, "indefinably esthetic '
They are terms to deal with ideas, feelings, morals, which differ with each person.
Certainly anyone can express these ideas...If they were all equal we'd all be rich poets.

Also, to suggest that a person's reactions to a poem are somehow invalid simply because they don't post poetry of their own is also absurd. Even spelling errors do not invalidate a heart-felt reaction to a work.

The reactions are not invalid.
Their reasons for liking or disliking may be.
If you were going to buy a digital camera..would everyone's opinion be valid?
Or would you ask someone who had bought one or used one?
I have no problem with someone reaction.
Some people in here make the mistake of taking the " crap" comments to heart.

There are people who'd say the Mona Lisa is crap who have never painted a picture..should Davinci have listened to them?

Each of us, ideally, enters into a relationship with poems as we read them. They interact with our personality and experience, and produce unique and individual insights. To say that a person's reaction to a poem is invalid, for any reason, is the height of arrogance and snobbery.

and to spend your life listening to " everyone' no matter what their background produces poetry that walks in circles .
I'd rather listen to people who, in my eyes, know a little bit about what it takes to write a poem, to use words,to craft something out of nothing.

their reaction may be valid, their opinion may not be.
I would never offer and opinion on anything mathematical, or dealing with automobiles, or fashion because I know nothing about it.
I would admit that if asked.
To think that my opinion on any of those things is " just as valid" as people who have studied and worked with them is asinine.
we'd all like to believe everyone is equal.
In matters of basic human rights and freedom I'd agree..we all should be.

But I wouldn't want someone whose never driven a car deciding what the new safety measures on my car will be.

read a comment written about a poem of mine, I don't care who wrote it. I don't check their credentials, or see if they've posted. I read their words and try to absorb their ideas. Even if I disagree with them, or feel that they missed something, I don't dismiss the comments as invalid. Instead, I find it an opportunity to open dialog and, hopefully, gain some insight into their understanding, and my own.

The fact that you listen to everyone is evident in some of your poetry that I've read.
It seems to try and please and appeal to everyone and thus has nothing unique about it.
In my opinion.

t grow by doing the same thing over and over again. We don't improve our skills by writing in the same style, or by reading the same authors. We don't learn from praise and adulation. We grow by taking risks, by pushing ourselves beyond what feels safe. We improve by stumbling, scraping knees, and getting up again. We learn from honest, heart-felt and constructive criticism.

Most people here have done and are still doing that.

and the key word is constructive
" this sucks" is not constructive
Also the poet has the option of agreeing or disagreeing with the criticism.
Just because you offer an opinion doesn't mean anyone has to pay attention.

The whole point of this is that we are not all " you".
We don't all think like you, believe what you believe, and want to change everything.
Lit is, more or less, a democracy and the majority rules.
since you've come here it seems that you want to upset the applecart and, even though you couch your words in altruistic garb, it still wreaks of " do it my way"
as I've said before, that doesn't go over big here.
if you were as observant as you profess to be I'd have thought you'd have seen that by this point.

I apologize to the people who are going to think this is mean.
I use a short pointed style because that's what seems to get noticed around here.
I'm just tired of coming here and seeing the same arguments over and over and the same people saying the same things.
And I am not the only one

This is/was a fun place to be.
it was a poetry forum
not a constant debate club.

 

[evelyn_carroll]

a green thermal undershirt and winnie the pooh pajama pants

Trust someone always to discover my most furtive and secretive fetish.

 

[duckiesmut]

Trust someone always to discover my most furtive and secretive fetish.

At least it's not just me, evelyn.

 

[Angeline]

Trust someone always to discover my most furtive and secretive fetish.

I can make Tigger bounce.

 

[flyguy69]

Trust someone always to discover my most furtive and secretive fetish.

The new glasses did it for me. Leave 'em on, baby, leave 'em on!

 

[Angeline]

The new glasses did it for me. Leave 'em on, baby, leave 'em on!

The glasses are almost always on--otherwise I walk into walls and such.

Anyway I got changed. Yoga pants and an old Rutgers t-shirt I stole from ee.

 

[flyguy69]

The glasses are almost always on--otherwise I walk into walls and such.

Anyway I got changed. Yoga pants and an old Rutgers t-shirt I stole from ee.

I had a lover that wouldn't wear her glasses in bed. She once sucked my thumb purple.

 

[Angeline]

I had a lover that wouldn't wear her glasses in bed. She once sucked my thumb purple.

Say goodnight, Gracie.

 

[flyguy69]

Say goodnight, Gracie.

I would type it but (ouch!) I'm still a little tender.

 

[Fflow]

Bongo

First, let me say that I really do appreciate the points of view, opinions, ideas, and feelings you expressed in your missive to me. I hear what you are saying.

What I understand you to say is that nobody should make suggestions about how to make the forum more meaningful and if, god forbid, they do then they should be willing to fuck right off when their ideas are dismissed by you as too demanding.

The only reason why I've tried to address these issues is that I honestly believe that they would make the Lit Poetry Forum more meaningful for everyone. Obviously, that is not a priority for you, and that's ok. It may remain a priority to me, however, and I may continue to talk about these and other ideas I have as I see fit.

I am willing to address meaningful and constructive criticism about myself and my work, but you've not provided that kind of insight to me at any time. Perhaps if you did, we would be having a much more meaningful conversation.

and how is " truth" defined? and honest?

One cannot, and should not, try to define truth or honesty except in relation to one's own work.

If you were going to buy a digital camera..would everyone's opinion be valid? There are people who'd say the Mona Lisa is crap who have never painted a picture..should Davinci have listened to them?

First, I cannot believe you are comparing a poem, or a painting, to a digital camera. If this is how you view art, then I am very sad for you. If someone has never held, used, or even seen a digital camera it would be hard for them to formulate a meaningful opinion about one. However, upon viewing a painting, or reading a poem, the experience they have and the opinions they form from that experience are, indeed, perfectly valid.

and the key word is constructive

I agree with you here. Another idea that I think might make the Lit Poetry Board more meaningful to everyone is a discussion about what 'constructive criticism' really means.

A brief example: "You can make this poem better by..." VS "I would like this poem more if..."​

The latter, to me, is constructive. The former is not.

The whole point of this is that we are not all " you".

Thank god for that! In a Democracy, however, free speech and an open exchange of ideas in the forum of public opinion is required. The fragile system of checks and balances protects the minority, and allows them to be heard even when the majority thinks they should shut the fuck up.

I apologize to the people who are going to think this is mean.

Never apologize for being honest, or even for just being yourself.

 

[Fflow]

Avoidance

And, in the spirit of avoidance:

I once was engaged to a contortionist, until she broke it off.









.

 

[Tathagata]

First, let me say that I really do appreciate the points of view, opinions, ideas, and feelings you expressed in your missive to me. I hear what you are saying.

What I understand you to say is that nobody should make suggestions about how to make the forum more meaningful and if, god forbid, they do then they should be willing to fuck right off when their ideas are dismissed by you as too demanding.

Obviously you don't hear what I'm saying
I can't say I'm surprised.

You've made your suggestions... 3 times.
Do you intend to keep making them over and over?
If so please tell me now so I can avoid opening the threads.

expressing and opinion is wonderful
having it shoved in your face in 3 threads at a time is intrusive and self serving

The only reason why I've tried to address these issues is that I honestly believe that they would make the Lit Poetry Forum more meaningful for everyone. Obviously, that is not a priority for you, and that's ok. It may remain a priority to me, however, and I may continue to talk about these and other ideas I have as I see fit.

I don't think it's broken
A fact you can't seem to understand.
my priorities are to write
what are yours?

I am willing to address meaningful and constructive criticism about myself and my work, but you've not provided that kind of insight to me at any time. Perhaps if you did, we would be having a much more meaningful conversation.

I have nothing to say about your work.
Which is why I haven't commented.
Another fact you have trouble grasping is that if no one says anything they must not have seen it.
When in fact, they just may not have anything to say.
Period.

First, I cannot believe you are comparing a poem, or a painting, to a digital camera. If this is how you view art, then I am very sad for you. If someone has never held, used, or even seen a digital camera it would be hard for them to formulate a meaningful opinion about one. However, upon viewing a painting, or reading a poem, the experience they have and the opinions they form from that experience are, indeed, perfectly valid.

I used the analogy for you.
Since you don't think there is an " indefinable" quality that is present what other option did I have?
The fact that you don't see that quality , to me, means you are missing what I think poetry is about.
Another point we differ on and always will.


Seeing a painting and having a reaction is fine, I said that .
having someone who has never painted then telling the painter what's wrong is what I said was absurd.
If you intend to argue please address the points I make..not the ones you concoct.

I agree with you here. Another idea that I think might make the Lit Poetry Board more meaningful to everyone is a discussion about what 'constructive criticism' really means.

A brief example: "You can make this poem better by..." VS "I would like this poem more if..."​

The latter, to me, is constructive. The former is not.

you seem to want to define everything.
and if the majority agreed that constructive criticism was something you didn't agree with you'd say fine right?

Thank god for that! In a Democracy, however, free speech and an open exchange of ideas in the forum of public opinion is required. The fragile system of checks and balances protects the minority, and allows them to be heard even when the majority thinks they should shut the fuck up.

I have a feeling you've made this speech a few times before.

Never apologize for being honest, or even for just being yourself.

I would apologize because it is the polite thing to do if you feel you have upset or angered anyone inadvertaintly.
That's the way I was raised.
I never apologize for being myself.

 

[Fflow]

You're so funny!

I have nothing to say about your work.

It seems to try and please and appeal to everyone and thus has nothing unique about it.​

lol

 

[Tathagata]

It seems to try and please and appeal to everyone and thus has nothing unique about it.​

lol

If you consider that saying " something" by all means use it as my definitive feedback.

 

[Maria2394]

Trust someone always to discover my most furtive and secretive fetish.

I wandered into this whine closet and read this, nearly choked to death laughing. Evelyn, Im not sure, but if its secretive, is it really a fetish? I always thought that someone had to be able to judge you ridiculously, for it to be a fetish, oh well, I can see you and angeline tugging overthe jammie pants now, MIne,no, its MINE, no, its mine, no mine, aaagghhhh

 

[evelyn_carroll]

Fetishes

The reason I made the comment was because I once heard a serious radio documentary about fetishes. There were people that got off on latex, leather, even balloons, and all sorts of stuff but, most extraordinary of all, there was a bloke who could only achieve orgasm while laying on, in sight of, or thinking about COBBLESTONES. Truth is stranger than Angeline.

Now, where were those pyjama bottoms?

 

[flyguy69]

The reason I made the comment was because I once heard a serious radio documentary about fetishes. There were people that got off on latex, leather, even balloons, and all sorts of stuff but, most extraordinary of all, there was a bloke who could only achieve orgasm while laying on, in sight of, or thinking about COBBLESTONES. Truth is stranger than Angeline.

Now, where were those pyjama bottoms?

Maybe he was just a big John Lennon fan, and took the lyrics of "why don't we do it in the road?" to heart.