being a sub doesn't mean weak (vent)

[hurtme]

Toes were nice....but i like the thigh highs...

 

[Kajira Callista]

i wonder if there are toeless thigh highs, then we could have both lol

 

[FungiUg]

i guess this is my one pet peeve about how others view subs. so i'm gonna fuss and bitch and get it outta my system.

I don't think I have ever viewed submissives as "weak". Submitting is such a courageous thing to do -- how does that equate with "weak"?

 

[hurtme]

Ever looked submission up in a dictionary?

(n.) The act of submitting; the act of yielding to power or authority; surrender of the person and power to the control or government of another; obedience; compliance.
(n.) The state of being submissive; acknowledgement of inferiority or dependence; humble or suppliant behavior; meekness; resignation.
(n.) Acknowledgement of a fault; confession of error.
(n.) An agreement by which parties engage to submit any matter of controversy between them to the decision of arbitrators.

I have friends who wont watch, can't even stand to be in the same room when I am being submissive...because they think it is a form of abusive...and the thing is, i couldn't do it in a 24/7 relationship...but I know that in phases, depending on who I am with, submission makes me feel very powerful, very safe, secure, and even more feminine...and it makes me a stronger person when i am being dominant or being neither...I think i am a stronger person for submitting...I have done things now i would have never done before... like airing my opinions to a group of strangers...like stick up for myself when i felt wronged, instead of just lettings things slide...like getting topless in the middle of a busy piercing/tat place, for my first tattoo...like expressing my deepest feelings and fears with another human being...I feel like I walk with an air of confindance that if I had it before, it was sporadic at best...I feel that submitting makes me a better top/domme...although I don't have nearly as much experience with that...I am slowly learning...and another thing, i have tried things i would have never tried before that frightened me for various reasons...

 

[Netzach]

Having never had the opportunity to feel "tough" that was the thing I gained from bottoming. Through my whole childhood I was sheltered, limited, beaten down, made to feel like I could never run my own affairs.

While I don't see myself as a submissive, I did bottom, I did submit, at times, AND it gave me the opportunity to realize that I could take it. Whatever "it" was, within reason, often things I never dreamt I'd be doing.

(What am I doing with my fist up this girl who has just beaten my ass raw after I sucked her bootheel in a roomful of people who were totally thrown for this massive shitloop because most of the subs in the room would never eat bootsole in public like that?)

It has definitely made me a stronger more perceptive Top. It has definitely given me self confidence and my first taste ever of being...kind of a slutty badass. I loved it.

 

[Zaudika]

Hey... as a handbag, he would match a pair of shoes I have.

***GASP*** Hey now!!!... I had a couple of those beautiful beasts as very loving pets up until a few months ago!

 

[MissTaken]

Ever looked submission up in a dictionary?

(n.) The act of submitting; the act of yielding to power or authority; surrender of the person and power to the control or government of another; obedience; compliance.
(n.) The state of being submissive; acknowledgement of inferiority or dependence; humble or suppliant behavior; meekness; resignation.
(n.) Acknowledgement of a fault; confession of error.
(n.) An agreement by which parties engage to submit any matter of controversy between them to the decision of arbitrators.

...

Oddly enough, I was going to start a thread for discussion, however, I will post my thoughts here.

I am taking a course on family development and we recently discussed the "submission/aggression" cycle.

Submission was defined as placing other's needs before your own to the degree to which your own needs are not met. The readings later refute that submission to a higher power or in terms of religion are unrelated to the cycle of submission and aggression, but no one was able to discuss submission in any context other than that of as a victim! (Well I could have, but that was not the time or place!)

IN this context, that of taking a do gooder social work class, submission is clearly portrayed as a weakness.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Just some food for thought. Submission in religion. The ones that submit to their god or higher being are considered the strongest in the church. Any onle else have an opinion on that?

 

[hurtme]

well, speaking from a wiccan viewpoint...i have several lovely charges...and there is a line from the charge of the god that that question reminded me of

Let my worship be in the body that sings, for behold all acts of willing sacrifice are my rituals

I watched a show last night that fit so well into that topic, basically showing people enduring great amounts of pain to show their god/s how devoted they were. Though technically, they were submitting to what they believed their gods wished for them to endure (including quite possible death)...no one thought them weak for it, in fact, in many of the cultures where it took place...people depended on this person (group of people) to endure that pain so as for the survival of the village/community...in a spiritual sense anyway...and i am sure most of them believed in a physical sense as well...

 

[catalina_francisco]

Oddly enough, I was going to start a thread for discussion, however, I will post my thoughts here.

I am taking a course on family development and we recently discussed the "submission/aggression" cycle.

Submission was defined as placing other's needs before your own to the degree to which your own needs are not met. The readings later refute that submission to a higher power or in terms of religion are unrelated to the cycle of submission and aggression, but no one was able to discuss submission in any context other than that of as a victim! (Well I could have, but that was not the time or place!)

IN this context, that of taking a do gooder social work class, submission is clearly portrayed as a weakness.

LOL...how I can relate and certainly say this is not the part of my career I miss at all!!! It became so frustrating listening to women (professionals) expound on submissives within the lifestyle as being abused victims who knew no better. In the end I found it too much and had to delicately pose questions as to how much they knew of the lifestyle, where did they draw their conclusions from, and most of all where was their non-judgemental attitude they were so proud of. Some still remained on the tack that it was abuse in the worst form, while others were able to allow themselves to open their minds and actually came to me privately to ask if I could guide them in the direction of material they could read to gain a wider understanding.

It eventually led to my being asked to give an educational talk on BDSM within the GLBT community....why that community? They knew I was heavily involved in a professional, political, and personal sense in that community, and it was easier for them to acknowledge BDSM within the GLBT community than closer to home in the heterosexual community they were familiar with and part of. Hopefully it has led some to venture into accepting it in a wider context by now and at least attempt to look outside the square in which they live so as to inform their practce more diversely.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I can't imagine lifestyle submissives taking up much air time in a sociology class or text, unless it was geared towards questions of sexuality, specifically, or unless it was the straw man, as it often is in these contexts.

This is where Feminism gets goofy, arguing over consensual SM when there are so many cut and dried examples of evil out there. It's easier to blame images, fantasies, and desires than it is to address an actual problem.

Whether it reflects my personal experience or not, more women are being beaten up and or/controlled at home and NOT enjoying it or being fulfilled by it than are: I think that's probably a safe statistical inference, even estimating SM people at 10 percent of the populace.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I can't imagine lifestyle submissives taking up much air time in a sociology class or text, unless it was geared towards questions of sexuality, specifically, or unless it was the straw man, as it often is in these contexts.

This is where Feminism gets goofy, arguing over consensual SM when there are so many cut and dried examples of evil out there. It's easier to blame images, fantasies, and desires than it is to address an actual problem.

Whether it reflects my personal experience or not, more women are being beaten up and or/controlled at home and NOT enjoying it or being fulfilled by it than are: I think that's probably a safe statistical inference, even estimating SM people at 10 percent of the populace.

I actually found the feminist social work and the sociology lectures at university were the places where acceptance of lifestyle choice was more in keeping than anywhere else. I still find it difficult to equate most of these women I worked with, with feminism, especially as most ran from being associated with the word in private though we were a feminist organisation...I guess for them any way to get a job justifies pretending to be someone your not...and perhaps that is why our success rates on the job varied vastly and I attracted a lot of pressure as to why I had the long term positive track record I had.

As domestic abuse was our field of work, it made it seem so much more 'appropriate' and easy for them to group submissives into the same group as abused women. Is also why I found it impossible to accept their uninformed jargon over time, despite my not being an active member of the BDSM community on a personal basis at that point. I felt it was harmful to practice to work from that model, not to mention presumptious to assume all women who are dominated are abused and controlled against their will.

There were more than one occasion (though not hundreds) when I had a client come in because she was an active and happy submissive but needed to talk about relationship issues and knew no other place to go. To then tell her she was a victim and being abused and refer her to a shelter to me was abusive of her rights and autonomy, not to mention insulting her intelligence. Their answer to that was we were an abuse oriented agency so it was our place to inform them they were abused....nothing like adopting the characteristics of your work group to your life and practice!!

Catalina

 

[Kajira Callista]

well, speaking from a wiccan viewpoint...i have several lovely charges...and there is a line from the charge of the god that that question reminded me of

Let my worship be in the body that sings, for behold all acts of willing sacrifice are my rituals

I watched a show last night that fit so well into that topic, basically showing people enduring great amounts of pain to show their god/s how devoted they were. Though technically, they were submitting to what they believed their gods wished for them to endure (including quite possible death)...no one thought them weak for it, in fact, in many of the cultures where it took place...people depended on this person (group of people) to endure that pain so as for the survival of the village/community...in a spiritual sense anyway...and i am sure most of them believed in a physical sense as well...

All thru the history of my religion, the ppl who endured pain and suffering got the best rewards.The once who worshipped truly
also did. Expressions like "thy will be done" are words we grow up by learning our religion. Thing is , how do ppl see us as weak when we are doing the same thing on a different level.

 

[hurtme]

what religion, if i may ask kajira? I have been wiccan for about 5 years...before that i considered myself pagan, and even boefore that i experiemented with several different types of christianity because i was trying to find the correct path while still staying under that umbrella of christianity...I was raised strict roman catholic...and my whole family are all still orthodox catholics in large part...

 

[BlueSugar]

I was looking up in the thesaurus to make my papers a little better, and setting up another Lj to use, and one of the words I typed in was "Submissive" weak was one of the synonyms, I must say I was pretty peeved. I didn't agree, but what can we do main stream? Have a parade about it? ::smile::

 

[lark sparrow]

I think it's important to know you are strong, and able to do things others cannot to begin with, with both strength and character.

But I also don't have a problem with being considered "weak" or lacking resistance to One that I would consider Dominant to myself. It's just a word with many interpretations. There is both "strength" and "weakness" in submission - personal opinion.

 

[Kajira Callista]

what religion, if i may ask kajira? I have been wiccan for about 5 years...before that i considered myself pagan, and even boefore that i experiemented with several different types of christianity because i was trying to find the correct path while still staying under that umbrella of christianity...I was raised strict roman catholic...and my whole family are all still orthodox catholics in large part...

Roman Catholic of course....isnt that where they make submissives (twas only a joke folks, i am actually a faithful follower of my religion)

 

[hurtme]

hmmm...don't know how much of a joke, as i said, i was raised strict roman catholic, look how that turned out...

( before anyone gets upset...that was a toungue in cheek post)

 

[Kajira Callista]

giggling here *whispers to hurtme* tis why we know how to kneel before Master so well, and worshipping him is a natural thing too! hehe

 

[ghosst_K&H]

hmmm...don't know how much of a joke, as i said, i was raised strict roman catholic, look how that turned out...

( before anyone gets upset...that was a toungue in cheek post)

anyone else find it strange that the Romans were some very hedonistic people, and yet one of the strictest religons is Roman Catholicism?


and yes i am a Catholic too...lol

 

[hurtme]

ah...no, i am NOT catholic, i have spent years trying to break the catholic out of myself...but it is almost like it is in your blood, a race rather than a religion, there are certian things i can't shake...yet...I have noticed that catholics are really good at submitting (in a non sexual sense) well, you know, all those guilt trips, and begging forgiveness on your knees does have a lasting impression...to this day, if i don't feel guilty for SOMETHING i will go do something to make me feel guilty....just because it is so familar to me...

 

[His_good_girl]

Interesting discussion ....
My problem is that in my day-to-day life I have a real need to appear totally in control of everything. It is very hard for me to then combine that with my desire to serve Him. If anyone knew my true desires I would be mortified! But then again, as I am dropping my kids off to pre-school, I look around the room and it makes me wonder what everyone else is doing behind their closed doors.

Jenny (another former Catholic)

 

[Kajira Callista]

Oh my am i the only unformer one left? Im raising two little ones also His_good_girl and i know the feeling all to well of having to change into supermom...then back to putting yourself at his feet where you need to be. Church helps me keep my world from turning upside down somehow. *shrugs*

 

[SweetDommes]

anyone else find it strange that the Romans were some very hedonistic people, and yet one of the strictest religons is Roman Catholicism?


and yes i am a Catholic too...lol

ghosstie ... you were born Catholic, raised Catholic and haven't pledged yourself to another religion (yet ) but you're not really Catholic now are you? I'm not, but I was. I can see how the Catholic religion would set someone up for this lifestyle, all the ritual, heirarchy, and begging. You also need to read up on your classic history ... the Romans were very much against the Catholic religion .... wonder why


-Miss Holly

 

[catalina_francisco]

Now if Catholicism and being raised in it makes one a submissive just waiting to be dominated, how does that correlate to Dominants who are Catholic....and then all the other subs/slaves/Doms etc who aren't and never have been? I might add when I mentioned the discussion to Master he for some reason couldn't stop laughing.

Catalina