Feminism and BDSM...

[ammre]

catalina..

 

[M's girl]

Catalina, I like your way of thinking...

 

[JMohegan]

If you can't see the blatant androcentrism and oppression of women in society, you are blind.

If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. No one wants to accept the debt of their ancestors but we all feel entitled to our inheritance.

As human beings, we're all pretty much self interested and will do whatever we can get away with. We're all in the rat race and we all play "the game." It is the very least we can do to be honest about that.

This is a great post, Marquis, but I see no evidence here for the idea that there is a "fuckupedness of being a male Dom after feminism".

What's fucked up is the idea that one size fits, or should fit, all in personal relationships. What's fucked up is the idea "after feminism" that a decent personal relationship is necessarily as egalitarian as possible.

I do not view D/s as a form of oppression. Do you?

 

[O'Mac]

Catalina, I think you're totally on target with quite a few points, ie: how can all prostitution/pornography/etc. be considered explotive of women if taking part in those careers do so out of their own free will. And of course, that applies to the BDSM lifestyle too. If a women wants to be submissive to a man and makes that choice herself, certainly that is advancing the feminist cause as the root issue itself is about personal freedom.

 

[NemoAlia]

. . . .she found herself questioning why she felt the weay she did if a woman mad3e that choice free from any other coercion or force or manipulation. . . .

I think that "choice feminism" (the idea that we should all back up all the choices that women freely make about their lifestyles) is a sweet idea. However, I think that when women choose the roles that men have created for them (prostitute, homemaker, Junior Leaguer) we're setting bad examples for the next generation of men and women. People, particularly children, don't look at a woman in a traditional role and say, "Gosh, there's an independent-minded, free-willed, feminist woman." They look at you and say, "Well, if even the feminists think washing dishes is the most important thing, then gosh, my chauvanist grandfather must be right." That's the message we're sending when we step out of men's Work World and into the margins of domesticity, prostitution, and polite volunteerism.

That said, let's talk about me for a second:



My Dominant, with whom I'm madly in love, thinks that women are instinctively made to serve, while men are genetically designed to dominate. This is a very huge difference of opinion between us. Seriously, this is like dating outside my religion (if I were a strongly religious person). How do I deal?

 

[Marquis]

This is a great post, Marquis, but I see no evidence here for the idea that there is a "fuckupedness of being a male Dom after feminism".

What's fucked up is the idea that one size fits, or should fit, all in personal relationships. What's fucked up is the idea "after feminism" that a decent personal relationship is necessarily as egalitarian as possible.

I do not view D/s as a form of oppression. Do you?

See NemoAlia's comment above.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Gender equality? *WEG*

Equality meaning "of equal value"? ? ? Absolutely!

Equality meaning "the same as"? ? ? Are ye freakin' DAFT? Hell no!

As the French say: "Viva la difference!"

 

[JMohegan]

See NemoAlia's comment above.

I disagree with both her view, and her Dominant's.

I am 48 years old. My female peers in college and graduate school were just as smart as any guy in the room, and just as driven. Yes, they went up against an old boy network in many situations, but they were often helped by an affirmative action of sorts. They entered the work force and did very well.

Then came the time to face the big personal choices. Marriage? Kids? Some picked neither, some just the first. Most chose both.

Then, of course, they faced a new choice. Stay home, or obtain child care? By far, the overwhelming majority picked the latter. And of those I know who chose the first, every single one would tell you that she faced negative reactions to her decision, ranging from mild expressions of surprise to outright derision or disgust. NemoAlia is hardly the first to suggest that such women betray the cause of feminism and endanger the next generation.

Under these circumstances, why would the women choose to stay home? Without exception, they say that the decision was made because they wanted to personally raise their children. Not a single one says they did it because "washing dishes is the most important thing". And they do not view the job of raising children as one on "the margin".

All these arguments that people make..... nature, nurture, roles picked by men, responsibility for the next generation, debt to the past..... Sheesh.

Life is not lived in big picture philosophical debate. It is just individual people making choices, given the opportunities available to them and personal preferences for the way in which they live.

Getting back to D/s.....

If you believe in the "fuckupedness of being a male Dom after feminism", do you also believe in the "fuckupedness" of being a female submissive after feminism?

 

[rosco rathbone]

I'm a misogynistic feminist. Equal rights for all, but behind closed doors, in my private life, my motto is "let's keep em' down, gents." It's a deep emotional feeling versus my rational convictions. I can see why I make feminists nervous when this discussion comes up.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think that "choice feminism" (the idea that we should all back up all the choices that women freely make about their lifestyles) is a sweet idea. However, I think that when women choose the roles that men have created for them (prostitute, homemaker, Junior Leaguer) we're setting bad examples for the next generation of men and women. People, particularly children, don't look at a woman in a traditional role and say, "Gosh, there's an independent-minded, free-willed, feminist woman." They look at you and say, "Well, if even the feminists think washing dishes is the most important thing, then gosh, my chauvanist grandfather must be right." That's the message we're sending when we step out of men's Work World and into the margins of domesticity, prostitution, and polite volunteerism.

I think the message that is being sent is that women can have choice, women can enjoy diversity, and certainly need not be pushed back into conforming to what polite society (aka male dominated) dictates and tries to force onto them by whatever means. If a woman is more concerned with what someone else might think, she still has a lot of assertiveness training to do and needs to reach a point where she can feel secure in making her own choices for herself, not based on what someone else thinks or might think...it is impossible for anyone to have 100% approval for anything, may as well be true to yourself.

Would you subscribe to the idea of a woman not having children no matter how much she might want to because motherhood is a role which holds certain stereotypes which have been chosen by some men for women to hold, and someone might think she is supportiuve of those stereotypes? Would you tell women who are models or actresses they should find a new career because they are selling their bodies (which they are, especially models)and looks for profit, and also are attractive to most men in doing so? Why should a woman feel guilty for being attractive, for drawing the attention of males, for being paid for being able to provide a service...IMHO, much better than being expected to put out at the end of a date, or just because she is a woman, because some dimwit thinks it is his right to use her free okf charge as an alternative to masturbation. That to me is women being exploited, not when they are paid to provide what someone else requires.

Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

Actually Catalina, I suspect we don't differ much in our views.

There are ways in which I just don't feel the sexes will ever be "equal". I see differences in how each gender deals with problem solving (from my perspective I tend to logic through problems with an empathic bent; most men I know simply logic through problems), or physical challenges (there is no way I can do as many chin ups as a man, but I dare most men to spend 8-10 hours in 4" heels 5 days a week ). I believe men and women compliment each other- in my mind there is no point in working my ass off to be "equal" to a man... Not because I feel I'm worth less than a man- I'm way too good at being me to buy that line of BS- but because I'm worth everything *to me*, and see no reason to change that for some feminist's agenda.

I believe it is idiotic to have a man and woman, fresh out of college, with same experience/GPA/etc, and pay the woman less than the man, just because she's a woman. I know it still happens, and it's wrong.

I don't believe a woman should be able to take a 5 year leave of absence from the workforce to have a baby or two, and bond with her child during the crucial early years, and come back to work expecting the same level of compensation as the man who continued to put in a 60 hour work week in her absence. That seems terribly illogical to me. If the mother decided to have her career, and the father became a house-husband for 5 years, he had better damned well have to face the career consequences of his decision- just like a woman would.

To me, the above pay/career issues aren't about "equality" they are about fairness.

The reason I say women have been somewhat screwed by the feminist movement, is that I was a stay at home volunteering mom for 10 years. As a modern woman, I have the choice to do what makes me happy, and motherhood did that. However, I was looked down upon by those who did have careers, who felt I was some mindless twit stuck in the 1950s. I've dealt with feminists who were of the opinion that my decision to be a homemaker was a betrayal to the movement. If I'd have made a career, plus raised kids, done the housework, coooked the meals, etc etc etc... I'd have been a good little feminist trying to have it all- and gone stark raving mad from the stress. No thank you.

I am so very thankful that women have the opportunity to do pretty much whatever they want... I do not understand why it is unacceptable to use that power of choice, to walk against the grain of modern society- through being a full time mother, or accepting a submissive position in a relationship, or working in the sex industry. (Side note- the image of the look of horror on my sister's face, is almost enough to convince me to submit images to SG... )

 

[babiesmiles]

I think I differ from cutie mouse in that as a feminist (and I feel they have not gone far enough, but they are smart enough to choose their battles carefully and thoughtfully with a long term vision in place) I do want women to be seen to be equal to men. That means equal pay for the same job, equal rights to pursue their own destiny, equal opportunity to promotion and career choices, equal right to choose whether to be promiscuous or not, marry or not, have children or not, equal right to vote and have my rights respected, and definately to have medical research around female physical issues to be conducted on women not men as I really don't see the sense in testing on men if it is for use on or in a female body. What I do is choose to place myself in a personal unequal position (far different from having that choice taken away from you) with a man who has never felt women were in any way inferior or should be unequal to men.

As to areas like prostitution and pornograghy which a certain faction of the feminist movement choose to see as oppressive and exploitive of women (only some feel this way, there are other factions who support it), IMHO is a narrow and very subjective view. I studied under a hardcore radical feminist who I had and still have great admiration for, and who required a final paper to set our final marks which would challenge her. Most of the class pulled out the usual argumants which reallly did little to challenge her, I pulled out this card and the right of women to choose it as a career and still be feminisit. We had to submit a shoirt paper to outline what we were going to write on and she did ask me if I wanted to keep my top of the class position....LOL, I said I didn't fear losing it and I was right. Along with other angles I argued a woman's choice to use her body for profit pointing out not many people objected to anyone using their body for profit via modelling or acting, nor saw it as any reason to feel those who chose those careers were being exploited because they were paid for the use of their bodies in those professions. I also highlighted that a reason to push these women to not profit in these professions was because men resented having to pay for the woman's service, for using her body, and so it was to their advantage to discredit the woman, to protect the male client, and that was the real exploitation...expecting a woman to give them the use of their bodies for nothing in return but a bad reputation or worse.

It was a lot more involved than that being a 10,000 word paper, but the arguments I presented, backed up by real evidence, as she said made her think in a new way where she found herself questioning why she felt the weay she did if a woman mad3e that choice free from any other coercion or force or manipulation. I was pleased I retained my top of the class perfect mark, but more so that she saw legitimacy in my argument of a situation she previously could not contemplate feeling anything positive or pro-feminist about.

It is worth noting that without feminism, most women here would not have the right to be who they are as either Domme or submissive and expect respect or happiness in return. In fact, any woman who admitted sexual desire would be ostracized and cast out of most of society, lose her children, lose her freedom. I think too many who have been born with these rights fail to realise what their ancestors lived with and what a shit life they lead but chose to fight back for the sake of contemporary womanhood.

Catalina

Brilliant post Cat , I share it completely .

minor hijack /

could someone less computer changelled than me add this post on our Submissives' Calendar , it is definitively worth to be there ! Thanks

end of hijack /

 

[ammre]

I think that "choice feminism" (the idea that we should all back up all the choices that women freely make about their lifestyles) is a sweet idea. However, I think that when women choose the roles that men have created for them (prostitute, homemaker, Junior Leaguer) we're setting bad examples for the next generation of men and women. People, particularly children, don't look at a woman in a traditional role and say, "Gosh, there's an independent-minded, free-willed, feminist woman." They look at you and say, "Well, if even the feminists think washing dishes is the most important thing, then gosh, my chauvanist grandfather must be right." That's the message we're sending when we step out of men's Work World and into the margins of domesticity, prostitution, and polite volunteerism.

That said, let's talk about me for a second:



My Dominant, with whom I'm madly in love, thinks that women are instinctively made to serve, while men are genetically designed to dominate. This is a very huge difference of opinion between us. Seriously, this is like dating outside my religion (if I were a strongly religious person). How do I deal?

bah, i feel frustrated because there's this whole working of theory behind that idea of women choosing the paths they take and... guh... if anything it's more of a precived notion of hurt that influences young women to have a "well then if i'm doomed fuck it" kind of mentality. it's either, militant feminists or homemaker-set-the-movement-back feminists that are displayed in the media which makes the term feminist come with such a bad rap. There's more but i'm tired and i'm not quite sure how to explain it all...
Structure vs agency. are me sociatally programmed to choose what we do? is it part of our genetics? is it ok to choose to follow what we've been programmed to do if it makes us happy? should we fight against it in hopes of reprogramming our future generations?

Oh theory you make my brain hurt. And some stinky butt is smoking either outside my door or window and it SMELLS in here Ick.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Actually Catalina, I suspect we don't differ much in our views.

There are ways in which I just don't feel the sexes will ever be "equal". I see differences in how each gender deals with problem solving (from my perspective I tend to logic through problems with an empathic bent; most men I know simply logic through problems), or physical challenges (there is no way I can do as many chin ups as a man, but I dare most men to spend 8-10 hours in 4" heels 5 days a week ). I believe men and women compliment each other- in my mind there is no point in working my ass off to be "equal" to a man... Not because I feel I'm worth less than a man- I'm way too good at being me to buy that line of BS- but because I'm worth everything *to me*, and see no reason to change that for some feminist's agenda.

But see, being different has nothing to do with being unequal, especially here. If you want to argue women are weaker than men so not equal, you could pick certain women to pit against certain men in a physical contest of strength where the women would easily outdo those particular men.....has nothing to do with equal or unequal. Being equal also has nothing to do with having to prove you are as good as a man on male criteria, or that you have to be other than you are....that is the whole point, feminism fights for the right for women to be women and men to be men but to respect their differences and award equal rights to all regardless of whether you have a dick to swing around or not. In patriarchial societal boundaries it is pointed out women are not equal because they are different to men and because it is judged from a male standpoint on a male criteria...you are buying into that and pointing out how we are different and calling it inequality....it isn´t, it is different.

Do you say a Muslim is not equal to a Christian or an Asian not equal to an Anglo because they are different? That is the ideology which fuels racism and oppression on various levels and because difference is mistakenly measured by one group against another to oppress those who share different characteristics, ideas, cultures, colour, sexuality from the group who makes the judgement and holds the power. Personally I am easily offended by being told as a woman I am not equal to men, and that I need to check what I say and do to avoid upsetting others who might frown on my choices.

As I said previously, without feminism, you and all women here would not be posting, would not be able to live as they please, would not be able to express their opinion, would not be able to divorce or own property, would not be able to work, would not be able to choose to have children or not, would not be able to vote, would likely not know what an orgasm was let alone ask for one and be respected, and the list goes on. Blaming it all on feminism and attacking the movement which made our lives possible seems to be shooting oneself in the foot. I may be feminist, but I also get offended by being told by other women as a woman I should acknowledge I am unequal to men, and that I should embrace a choice of how to act as a woman because another woman thinks it is cool to live that way, or is all she personally feels she is worthy of. I do not submit to subservience out of a belief I have to because I can´t measure up or handle things men can, I do it out of choice and the freedom to do so without being forced and oppressed. And best of all, because it allows me to be me, not some role model of what a woman should be.

To me, the above pay/career issues aren't about "equality" they are about fairness.

So if it has nothing to do with equality of gender, why is it women get paid less for the same position, same work, same job, same hours in so many areas and throughout the western world, many times in areas such as medicine and law, and yet we do not see it reversed? How can that just by coincidence be biased 100% against women without being about patriarchial ideals of inequality based purely on gender? I think it has little to do with fairness when the decision has been made to pay a male more, promote them over women, etc., and award men unequal rights women do not enjoy.


Catalina

 

[NemoAlia]

See NemoAlia's comment above.

Flattery in its sincerest form -- and it means a lot coming from you, Marquis!

 

[BiBunny]

As I said previously, without feminism, you and all women here would not be posting, would not be able to live as they please, would not be able to express their opinion, would not be able to divorce or own property, would not be able to work, would not be able to choose to have children or not, would not be able to vote, would likely not know what an orgasm was let alone ask for one and be respected, and the list goes on. Blaming it all on feminism and attacking the movement which made our lives possible seems to be shooting oneself in the foot. I may be feminist, but I also get offended by being told by other women as a woman I should acknowledge I am unequal to men, and that I should embrace a choice of how to act as a woman because another woman thinks it is cool to live that way, or is all she personally feels she is worthy of. I do not submit to subservience out of a belief I have to because I can´t measure up or handle things men can, I do it out of choice and the freedom to do so without being forced and oppressed. And best of all, because it allows me to be me, not some role model of what a woman should be.

I second this completely. Since this is a topic very dear to my heart, I'll be back to post my own thoughts later when I have more time.

 

[CutieMouse]

Being equal also has nothing to do with having to prove you are as good as a man on male criteria, or that you have to be other than you are....that is the whole point, feminism fights for the right for women to be women and men to be men but to respect their differences and award equal rights to all regardless of whether you have a dick to swing around or not. In patriarchial societal boundaries it is pointed out women are not equal because they are different to men and because it is judged from a male standpoint on a male criteria...you are buying into that and pointing out how we are different and calling it inequality....it isn´t, it is different.

Saying men and women are different, rather than unequal, is probably a more accurate way of phrasing things. I have a lot of personal fallout from how feminism was pushed in my household growing up, as well as reaction to choices I've made which appear to contradict everything "feminism" stood for, and it skews my views on the subject.

Do you say a Muslim is not equal to a Christian or an Asian not equal to an Anglo because they are different? That is the ideology which fuels racism and oppression on various levels and because difference is mistakenly measured by one group against another to oppress those who share different characteristics, ideas, cultures, colour, sexuality from the group who makes the judgement and holds the power.

Nope- I don't believe any religion is more worthy than another. They're all simply different, although I personally suspect that there is only one higherpower/creator behind all the religions.

Personally I am easily offended by being told as a woman I am not equal to men, and that I need to check what I say and do to avoid upsetting others who might frown on my choices.

As am I. I've also been easily offended in the past, when women have judged me for not finishing college, or having a professional career, and being "just" a mom. When I did decide to leave my marriage, and eventually gave my ex full custody of the children, a lot of those people were horrified that I would give up the kids for the sake of going back to school and starting a career. I guess my point is, that men are not the only ones who can be opressive to women. The feminist movement has done a lot of wonderful things- but there are more radical supporters within the movement, who can be just as narrow minded about a woman's options, as men can be.

As I said previously, without feminism, you and all women here would not be posting, would not be able to live as they please, would not be able to express their opinion, would not be able to divorce or own property, would not be able to work, would not be able to choose to have children or not, would not be able to vote, would likely not know what an orgasm was let alone ask for one and be respected, and the list goes on. Blaming it all on feminism and attacking the movement which made our lives possible seems to be shooting oneself in the foot. I may be feminist, but I also get offended by being told by other women as a woman I should acknowledge I am unequal to men, and that I should embrace a choice of how to act as a woman because another woman thinks it is cool to live that way, or is all she personally feels she is worthy of. I do not submit to subservience out of a belief I have to because I can´t measure up or handle things men can, I do it out of choice and the freedom to do so without being forced and oppressed. And best of all, because it allows me to be me, not some role model of what a woman should be.

I believe every person on the planet should live up to their full potential. I don't care if you are a man, woman, green, purple, or polka dotted- we all have a responsibility to ourselves to live up to our potential. For some women that will mean obtaining a PhD; for others, they will be most happy and fulfilled running a home. Both are equally worthy goals; neither is lesser than the other in any way. I would never expect a woman who felt drawn to the life of a Susie-homemaker to get a PhD, instead; or a doctorial candidate to play Susie-homemaker, rather than write her dissertation- just to fit inside the box others expect her to fit in.

So if it has nothing to do with equality of gender, why is it women get paid less for the same position, same work, same job, same hours in so many areas and throughout the western world, many times in areas such as medicine and law, and yet we do not see it reversed? How can that just by coincidence be biased 100% against women without being about patriarchial ideals of inequality based purely on gender? I think it has little to do with fairness when the decision has been made to pay a male more, promote them over women, etc., and award men unequal rights women do not enjoy.
Catalina

The only argument I've ever seen for paying women less, is that they are more likely to take leave of absense due to pregnancy/child rearing/etc. Until men are more comfortable being stay-at-home dads, and society/couples deal with child care issues 50/50 (meaning dads get paternity leave, and are as likely to do doctors appointments/sick days, etc as moms)- I don't see it changing. Which shortchanges everyone- women in terms of financial compensation for their work, and men with regard to parenting.

I don't feel I'm very good at expressing myself properly on this subject, and I do apologize Catalina, if I upset you.

 

[littlegirlslut]

This was actually a HUGE issue for me at first when I was (and still am) coming to grips with my sexuality. It has taken me a lot - tons - of really hard work to get where I am in life (not to say i'm president or anything). It's taken a lot of NOT being submissive and not letting men (it's just been the way it is, women can be MUCH worse) push me around and tell me I'm not good enough or that I don't equal my male counterparts becuase I'm not male.

Because of this I've trained myself over the years to view submission as a weakness. Why should a man control me? Am I an idiot? What have I worked for? Why would I want to be in an unequal relationship? Why should I serve another and He not serve me?

I can't say I have found the answers to these questions but I know why I am ok with it. I am really happy with who I am. I know He knows I am capable and intelligent and could conquer anything I set my mind to. I also know that He knows that I don't "actually need" (I could do it on my own) for him to master me, but I really do need it in an emotional - deep feeling.

I'm not sure that this helps - but my rambling helped me - thanks!

 

[LadyAria]

I think I differ from cutie mouse in that as a feminist (and I feel they have not gone far enough, but they are smart enough to choose their battles carefully and thoughtfully with a long term vision in place) I do want women to be seen to be equal to men. That means equal pay for the same job, equal rights to pursue their own destiny, equal opportunity to promotion and career choices, equal right to choose whether to be promiscuous or not, marry or not, have children or not, equal right to vote and have my rights respected, and definately to have medical research around female physical issues to be conducted on women not men as I really don't see the sense in testing on men if it is for use on or in a female body. What I do is choose to place myself in a personal unequal position (far different from having that choice taken away from you) with a man who has never felt women were in any way inferior or should be unequal to men.

As to areas like prostitution and pornograghy which a certain faction of the feminist movement choose to see as oppressive and exploitive of women (only some feel this way, there are other factions who support it), IMHO is a narrow and very subjective view. I studied under a hardcore radical feminist who I had and still have great admiration for, and who required a final paper to set our final marks which would challenge her. Most of the class pulled out the usual argumants which reallly did little to challenge her, I pulled out this card and the right of women to choose it as a career and still be feminisit. We had to submit a shoirt paper to outline what we were going to write on and she did ask me if I wanted to keep my top of the class position....LOL, I said I didn't fear losing it and I was right. Along with other angles I argued a woman's choice to use her body for profit pointing out not many people objected to anyone using their body for profit via modelling or acting, nor saw it as any reason to feel those who chose those careers were being exploited because they were paid for the use of their bodies in those professions. I also highlighted that a reason to push these women to not profit in these professions was because men resented having to pay for the woman's service, for using her body, and so it was to their advantage to discredit the woman, to protect the male client, and that was the real exploitation...expecting a woman to give them the use of their bodies for nothing in return but a bad reputation or worse.

It was a lot more involved than that being a 10,000 word paper, but the arguments I presented, backed up by real evidence, as she said made her think in a new way where she found herself questioning why she felt the weay she did if a woman mad3e that choice free from any other coercion or force or manipulation. I was pleased I retained my top of the class perfect mark, but more so that she saw legitimacy in my argument of a situation she previously could not contemplate feeling anything positive or pro-feminist about.

It is worth noting that without feminism, most women here would not have the right to be who they are as either Domme or submissive and expect respect or happiness in return. In fact, any woman who admitted sexual desire would be ostracized and cast out of most of society, lose her children, lose her freedom. I think too many who have been born with these rights fail to realise what their ancestors lived with and what a shit life they lead but chose to fight back for the sake of contemporary womanhood.

Catalina

Wow, Catalina, you are so right on.

 

[Marquis]

Life is not lived in big picture philosophical debate. It is just individual people making choices, given the opportunities available to them and personal preferences for the way in which they live.

Our preferences and our opportunities are molded by the "big picture philosophical debate".

It is, quite simply, a man's world out there. Women have adjusted to this quite adeptly, but there needs to be a balance between enabling women to thrive within the current system and changing the system to give more women the opportunity to enjoy the same levels of power as men.

Happiness is a fine goal, but fairness is far more noble.

I'm sorry if I'm not directly responding to your point, but I am being general because this is not a topic which inspires me to verbose debate. I try to make a habit of not arguing when I do not think my opinion can be swayed, it seems dissimulating.

If you have a direct question that you'd like my opinon on, like below, I'm more than happy to answer.

If you believe in the "fuckupedness of being a male Dom after feminism", do you also believe in the "fuckupedness" of being a female submissive after feminism?

Absolutely.

 

[NemoAlia]

It occurs to me that I might have offended some of the women I hold in high esteem with my earlier post re: what women should and should not do if they're gonna be "good" feminists.

So, having re-read the thread, and having had the chance to talk more about it with my Dom, I have a few points that might help clarify. However, I might still be incendiary, so if you're one of those people who walks away with a bitter taste in your mouth, please try to forgive me.

1. It took me a long time to learn to believe that there could be "right" and "wrong," or "good" and "bad." Now that there are a few distinctions that I see as universally true, I tend to value them very highly. Feminism is one of the "good" things -- and there's probably no form of feminism that is worse than the lack thereof.

2. If a feminist woman wants to stay home with her children, she should. But in my opinion, she has a responsibility to be vocal with her children, her parents, her friends, her former co-workers, et al. about her continuing belief that staying at home with one's children is not the only good choice for women in her situation. Otherwise, her children (and her parents, who, let's face it, are the ones RIGHT NOW with the political clout) will believe that good mommies stay home.

3. Women are physically weaker than men, as a general rule. If we also say that women have an instinct to submit to men, aren't we getting dangerously close to saying that women want to be raped? I'm not interested in going there. It's something that I believe falls into the category of severely dangerous language.

4. The women I know who went from their parents' house to becoming mothers & homemakers say themselves that they "chose" that path because it seemed the easiest. Anyone with a working uterus can be a mother, and it gets you the social respect that would take far more than a roll in the hay to acquire in any other way.

There's more, but like Marquis, I'm not too terribly interested in typing my fingers to the bone about it. I'll always be the first to admit that I yearn desperately to submit to the man I love. But I will never open my mouth to say it's because I'm a woman.

 

[NemoAlia]

Life is not lived in big picture philosophical debate. It is just individual people making choices, given the opportunities available to them and personal preferences for the way in which they live.

Our lives are strongly influenced by the big picture, by our social philosophies. (We'd all still have a life expectancy of, well, most of us would be dead for one reason or another if we hadn't decided as a whole to value medical research.) And each of us has a responsibility to consider how our individual lives & choices affect the big picture, for our own sake if not for any other reason. I will never choose to allow my actions to suggest that I have capitulated to what men expect from me, because I never want to slam face-first into the glass ceiling of their expectations.

 

[O'Mac]

There's more, but like Marquis, I'm not too terribly interested in typing my fingers to the bone about it. I'll always be the first to admit that I yearn desperately to submit to the man I love. But I will never open my mouth to say it's because I'm a woman.

I think that's actually a point I wanted to say, but forgot to mention during the whole debate. Bascially, I'm perfectly happy with the person I care about submitting to me in our relationship, but I don't apply that to women universally, nor would I want to.

 

[JMohegan]

So, having re-read the thread, and having had the chance to talk more about it with my Dom, I have a few points that might help clarify. However, I might still be incendiary, so if you're one of those people who walks away with a bitter taste in your mouth, please try to forgive me.

To be honest, I do not find your words compelling enough to be incendiary. I find them quite ironic, and in a way they also make me sad.

Has it not occurred to you, NemoAlia, that there is innate value in many of the choices women make? Tending a garden. Spending time with a child.

Feminism is either about equality of choices, or about a mad rush to drive all women to mimic the traditional behavior of men. The former has my respect and my unequivocal support. The latter has my contempt.

Our lives are strongly influenced by the big picture, by our social philosophies. (We'd all still have a life expectancy of, well, most of us would be dead for one reason or another if we hadn't decided as a whole to value medical research.) And each of us has a responsibility to consider how our individual lives & choices affect the big picture, for our own sake if not for any other reason. I will never choose to allow my actions to suggest that I have capitulated to what men expect from me, because I never want to slam face-first into the glass ceiling of their expectations.

Baring your breasts for the view of males everywhere might fall into the category of capitulation in some circles. Wouldn't you say?

 

[JMohegan]

Happiness is a fine goal, but fairness is far more noble

Since I find no pretension to personal nobility in your remarks, I have no reason to react negatively to what you have written.