Feminism and BDSM...

[Marquis]

Since I find no pretension to personal nobility in your remarks, I have no reason to react negatively to what you have written.

Ha ha, yes, I think it's pretty clear I'd rather be happy.

At the same time, I don't think I am entirely ignoble, but I do believe I am "working the system" to some degree.

 

[NemoAlia]

To be honest, I do not find your words compelling enough to be incendiary. I find them quite ironic, and in a way they also make me sad.

I was mostly speaking to the women on this thread who consider themselves feminist but would have been offended by someone suggesting that they should act a certain way in order to be a "good" feminist. I will always support feminism, even if it's not as extreme as mine, as being far better than the alternative.

Has it not occurred to you, NemoAlia, that there is innate value in many of the choices women make? Tending a garden. Spending time with a child.

I believe there is significant value in childcare, gardening, cooking, knitting, or any sort of "woman's work." In fact, beyond the obvious, I strongly believe that participation in these activities connects a person to other people -- strangers, family, folks halfway around the world and spun back in time -- in a way that is invaluable to our human nature.

Feminism is either about equality of choices, or about a mad rush to drive all women to mimic the traditional behavior of men.

This is an oversimplification. Feminism is about equality of choices, equality of opportunities, equality of social power, equality of respect, equality of education, equality of expectations, equality of legal status, equality of life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness, equality... yeah... the list goes on. Right now, the power structure (and all hope for real change) is largely controlled by males -- the world over. In order to effect change, feminists -- whether they are male or female -- must communicate with the existing system. While this might appear to be "mimic[ing] the traditional behavior of men," the mimicry is not the ultimate goal. The communication is. Are there better ways of communicating with someone than to meet them at their own level?

Baring your breasts for the view of males everywhere might fall into the category of capitulation in some circles. Wouldn't you say?

I agree. This is partially why I am being so vocal about my views -- to make sure that you all know exactly where I stand, regardless of appearance or misguided first impressions.

 

[Ebonyfire]

I am not a feminist, nor have I ever been one. I am a survivalist. In my opinion, I do not think the feminist cause did much to help my struggle as a black woman. Others may feel differently and so I say what I always say, to each her own.

So my point is this, feminism does not relate to my version of BDSM and or D/s.

Eb

 

[ammre]

Baring your breasts for the view of males everywhere might fall into the category of capitulation in some circles. Wouldn't you say?

view of women too... and what nice tata's they are.
besides, she's not baring her breasts to get a better position in life, she's doing it casue she feels like it.

 

[Vessira]

I brought this conversation up yesterday with someone, as I consider myself a femminst, but I'm very submissive. We were discussing it, and I explained my personal dislike for humiliation and degradation practices in my play, as well as using terms like "slut". Now this is just my personal incination, but in the past I've found it somewhat difficult to be treated as a sub, and given the respect of an equal person. Interestingly enough, I'd prefer someone to call me a bitch, which is one word some woman shy away from, but I consider it an empowering word. *shrug* These are just my thoughts as I'm allowing myself to become more talkative on these boards.

 

[JMohegan]

Feminism is about equality of choices, equality of opportunities, equality of social power, equality of respect, equality of education, equality of expectations, equality of legal status, equality of life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness, equality... yeah... the list goes on. Right now, the power structure (and all hope for real change) is largely controlled by males -- the world over. In order to effect change, feminists -- whether they are male or female -- must communicate with the existing system. While this might appear to be "mimic[ing] the traditional behavior of men," the mimicry is not the ultimate goal. The communication is. Are there better ways of communicating with someone than to meet them at their own level?

Again, you are speaking in theories and generalities here.

Every family must decide who will earn the rent, who will prepare the food, and who will hold the little boy's hand while he learns to walk. This is reality. And the one who enjoys the kudos at work is not the one who enjoys the smile from the child when he takes that first step.

Men have never "had it all". What they have had is success in those endeavors which men have deemed to be important.

I agree. This is partially why I am being so vocal about my views -- to make sure that you all know exactly where I stand, regardless of appearance or misguided first impressions.

If that is your purpose here, then perhaps it would be more appropriate to be vocal about your views on female submissives and those who bare their breasts for the general public, rather than targeting women who choose to stay home with their children.

 

[JMohegan]

she's doing it casue she feels like it.

Yes, as she should.

My personal opinion is that she should feel free to do this without qualification or apology or need to expound upon the feminist cause. But that's not what she's saying here.

 

[NemoAlia]

view of women too... and what nice tata's they are.
besides, she's not baring her breasts to get a better position in life, she's doing it casue she feels like it.

Aw, shucks! :blush:

You're right -- I'm just showing off with my av. Very, "Hey look what I got to do the other day!"

 

[NemoAlia]

Again, you are speaking in theories and generalities here.

Every family must decide who will earn the rent, who will prepare the food, and who will hold the little boy's hand while he learns to walk. This is reality. And the one who enjoys the kudos at work is not the one who enjoys the smile from the child when he takes that first step.

I doubt anyone wants to hear me talk only about myself -- thus the theories and generalities. But since you ask:

In my case, my career is such that I earn a living working intermittently, at home, or during hours that childcare is easy to find. In fact, it's a career that both of my parents and one of my grandparents had before me.

If I lived in South America, or in Russia, Asia, any part of Europe but the far north/west... I, because I'm a woman, would not find work in my field.

If I have children, I will not have to choose between them and my career, except if I'm bedridden during/immediately after the pregnancy.

I can, in this case, "have it all." But only because I live in a place where feminism has already had a significant social and political impact. A few hundred miles south and I'd be dependent on a husband or a father. I would not have had the formal education (although, granted, I would have had my family) to develop my skills, and jobs simply would not be open to me. Organizations in my field have specific policies disallowing women in much of the world.

In my opinion, we should all work toward a world in which each person, regardless of sex/gender, should be able to work it so s/he can have it all -- rewarding career and family involvement. Or one, or neither. This, again IMO, is why we develop technology that makes the daily drudgery faster, easier, and cheaper. (Okay, that was a little off-topic, but it fits, I swear!)

 

[Netzach]

I have never felt guilty about being a dominant male.

Then you are keenly clueless as to what it's actually like not to be male and how much privilege comes with the territory. Guilt isn't a particularly useful emotion and I don't think men need to steep in it, but any guy who fails to admit how the deck is stacked doesn't wanna see.

 

[Netzach]

I am not a feminist, nor have I ever been one. I am a survivalist. In my opinion, I do not think the feminist cause did much to help my struggle as a black woman. Others may feel differently and so I say what I always say, to each her own.

So my point is this, feminism does not relate to my version of BDSM and or D/s.

Eb

This is a big huge neglectful fuck up. I don't think Feminism as it played out did a lot for working-class women of any color, or for women of color in general.

 

[Netzach]

hmmmm I don't do ancestral guilt very well whether its about racisism or about the oppression of women. I have stopped allowing people to tell my place using guilt a long time ago. Nor do I feel the need to beat myself up over being either a man or being dominant. I guess that means I don't have any good sense.

I believe in "personal" responsibility. I do not feel compelled to bear the responsibility of the whole male race of its past, present or future(not even a little teeny bit).

I'm not talking about ancestral guilt I'm talking about the fact that you don't wonder if you're going to be attacked on the street as often as I do.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Then you are keenly clueless as to what it's actually like not to be male and how much privilege comes with the territory. Guilt isn't a particularly useful emotion and I don't think men need to steep in it, but any guy who fails to admit how the deck is stacked doesn't wanna see.

AMEN!

 

[Netzach]

If you believe in the "fuckupedness of being a male Dom after feminism", do you also believe in the "fuckupedness" of being a female submissive after feminism?

Yes, and I was pretty down with it when I bottomed. I can handle ironies. I don't see why anyone's sexuality has to be especially politically squeaky clean. So rather than recast my D/s inclinations as "totally healthy" and "totally normal" I'm down the the ironies and the ways they subvert whatever there is out there.

 

[Ebonyfire]

This is a big huge neglectful fuck up. I don't think Feminism as it played out did a lot for working-class women of any color, or for women of color in general.

I think you are right. It was not even intentional I think. I think that women have not been very nice to each other, mainly because women of different races, ethnic groups... have been isolated from each other's problems.


It is really only in the last 10 years we have actually begun a dialogue about what we have in common rather than our differences.

 

[Ebonyfire]

I like it when I tell a feminist I love BDSM porn. Then they go off about how this shows women as sex objects to be used and I say "Oh, well I prefer femdom myself, watching men be used and abused, NOW THATS HOT!"

Then they just look at me like I'm a lesser being, and it is wonderful to watch hypocrisy in action.

Are you sure it is hypocrisy or ignorance? They often look the same, lol.

Feminists can be just as vanilla as the next person.

 

[Netzach]

If you can't see the blatant androcentrism and oppression of women in society, you are blind.

If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. No one wants to accept the debt of their ancestors but we all feel entitled to our inheritance.

As human beings, we're all pretty much self interested and will do whatever we can get away with. We're all in the rat race and we all play "the game." It is the very least we can do to be honest about that.

Amen and bravo.

Have I felt guilt because I'm white? Yes. Not especially useful.

More importantly that guilt impels me to try not to be a complete asshole where race is concerned. While this is admirable, there are certain advantages this grants me in this society that no amount of care and thought in how I personally interact with others is going to undo.

If I fail to see that, because I'm taking care and being sensitive, I'm the worst kind of asshole of all.

 

[Netzach]

I think you are right. It was not even intentional I think. I think that women have not been very nice to each other, mainly because women of different races, ethnic groups... have been isolated from each other's problems.


It is really only in the last 10 years we have actually begun a dialogue about what we have in common rather than our differences.

Indeed, and what we have in common in a way that doesn't make assumptions and mow over those differences when they're not convenient to the majority.

Er. percieved majority. People making up the rules and writing the books.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Amen and bravo.

Have I felt guilt because I'm white? Yes. Not especially useful.

More importantly that guilt impels me to try not to be a complete asshole where race is concerned. While this is admirable, there are certain advantages this grants me in this society that no amount of care and thought in how I personally interact with others is going to undo.

If I fail to see that, because I'm taking care and being sensitive, I'm the worst kind of asshole of all.

The thing is everyone has their share of guilt. The blacks who helped massacre the indians ...I could go on and on. Yep there is plenty of guilt, and yes it is not useful cause there ain't a damned thing any of us can do about the past, except not repeat it.

 

[Netzach]

The thing is everyone has their share of guilt. The blacks who helped massacre the indians ...I could go on and on. Yep there is plenty of guilt, and yes it is not useful cause there ain't a damned thing any of us can do about the past, except not repeat it.

Everyone is an oppressor and an oppressed in varying degrees and for varying reasons.

I still maintain that the only Dominant men I've ever been attracted to as peers get the irony and aren't just in some reactionary/clueless/patriarchal mode when it comes to D/s. I'm entitled to be attracted to whatever I want an not attracted to whatever I want. I am attracted to men who have feminist understanding and leanings in the larger world and who get the reality.

There are submissive men aplenty who are the worst misogynists you can fathom, as I'm sure you're well aware. I don't do too well with them either.

Yeah, there is something a little fucked up about grooving on sexual power dynamics that flip the expected ones OR that mimic the expected ones. And power inequalities based on gender are just the tip of a very murky iceberg. I'm always amazed at how people bristle and freak out when you suggest that they may not be part of some shiny happy textbook normalcy - I'm much more comfortable in a sexual demimonde than I am in a Martha Stewart ad.

 

[JMohegan]

Then you are keenly clueless as to what it's actually like not to be male and how much privilege comes with the territory. Guilt isn't a particularly useful emotion and I don't think men need to steep in it, but any guy who fails to admit how the deck is stacked doesn't wanna see.

If you had referenced a white man's guilt relating to economics or privilege in society as a whole, I would have said yes - of course I feel a certain amount of guilt over my "inheritance", as Marquis put it. That's why my reaction to the comments of his which you just quoted was to say, "Great post".

But you did not reference a white man's guilt, or even the guilt of men in general.

Post 12:

I've been passingly attracted (?) to two dominant guys in my life, both of whom were really in touch with the ironies and fuckupedness of being a male Dom after feminism.

I do not view D/s as fucked up, and I do not see it as a form of oppression.

If a partner and I are privately satisfying each other's personal needs, I see no reason why either of us should feel guilty for doing so.

 

[Netzach]

I do not view D/s as fucked up, and I do not see it as a form of oppression.

If a partner and I are privately satisfying each other's personal needs, I see no reason why either of us should feel guilty for doing so.

Kudos.

Personally I do wonder why I feel so bored or so trapped when I'm not in control, and I do pinpoint a number of things about why I might feel that way. Some relate to the larger culture, some to the microculture of my family and friends, some I can't figure out, and some are inherently me. I don't think all of the things that add up to that are necessarily happy stories, but they're me, and I know I'm happiest a certain way. Whether that can change - maybe. Whether it *should* change, maybe. Whether I am open to changing any of it, no.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Kudos.

Personally I do wonder why I feel so bored or so trapped when I'm not in control, and I do pinpoint a number of things about why I might feel that way. Some relate to the larger culture, some to the microculture of my family and friends, some I can't figure out, and some are inherently me. I don't think all of the things that add up to that are necessarily happy stories, but they're me, and I know I'm happiest a certain way. Whether that can change - maybe. Whether it *should* change, maybe. Whether I am open to changing any of it, no.[/QUOTE}

I remember many of the movies in the 70s always showed the trapped woman. You know the camera angle would stress the vulnerability of the women. She was always crouched in the corner frozen?

It was how women were portrayed for so long. No wonder it is very hard not to want to be in control when you were fed a steady diet of helplessness day in and day out. I am thinking of myself here I think.

 

[ammre]

the invisible backpack of privilege.
Things that work for you even if you don't realize it.
Like i hvae an easy time finding foundation that matches my skin tone and hair care products for my hair. A man isn't taught to be terrified of sexual violance when walking down a dark path.
Oh gendr roles, how i hate the way you are societally enforced causing problems for both men and women as well as different layers of problems when you add race and creed into the mix...

 

[Ebonyfire]

One of the reason I stopped going to church because in the southern baptist tradition, all that is good is patriarchal and all that is bad is matriarchal. I walked out of church one time when my mother's minister said the reason that young black men go wrong is because of their mothers. They should stay home where they belong. I walked out and never went back.

When my mother died i refused to have her funeral at his church. Thank goodness she didn't request it either.

Eb