Feminism and BDSM...

[RJMasters]

Everyone is an oppressor and an oppressed in varying degrees and for varying reasons.

I still maintain that the only Dominant men I've ever been attracted to as peers get the irony and aren't just in some reactionary/clueless/patriarchal mode when it comes to D/s. I'm entitled to be attracted to whatever I want an not attracted to whatever I want. I am attracted to men who have feminist understanding and leanings in the larger world and who get the reality.

There are submissive men aplenty who are the worst misogynists you can fathom, as I'm sure you're well aware. I don't do too well with them either.

Yeah, there is something a little fucked up about grooving on sexual power dynamics that flip the expected ones OR that mimic the expected ones. And power inequalities based on gender are just the tip of a very murky iceberg. I'm always amazed at how people bristle and freak out when you suggest that they may not be part of some shiny happy textbook normalcy - I'm much more comfortable in a sexual demimonde than I am in a Martha Stewart ad.

You know, just because I will not accept guilt does not mean I am not sypathetic. Nor does it mean that I do not get angry when I see oppression take place.

If I am guilty of anything, I am guilty of oppressing my two daughters to higher education. This means I will be in debt till I am 70 years old paying off thier opportunity I am giving them to do something with their life. You see I am part of the solution, but it does not stem from guilt, it stems from action. It doesn't rest of just lip service that so many men give via the guilt they feel. In my sphere of influence I do what I can. I encourage women to not be afraid to be who they are whether it is a career or home or both they choose. I often talk to men who still have a lot of anger and bitterness and help them to let go of that by taking personal responsibility for them selves and quit letting others define them. I use my vote to support those things which I believe are right and fair for all involved. I have given 8 years of my life in service to this country to help presevere the freedoms for feminists to push their agenda down my throat.

I promote the working of men and women together to resolve the issues rather than use bipolarizing the issue.

As far as it relates to D/s, that is why consent is so important to me. And much of being a dominant has more to do with confidnence in who I am.

If all the above is not seen as a man tryig his best to be helpful and actively participating, then fuck it. If it puts me outside the peer circle then that's something I am prepare to live with.

~I'm out I have nothing more to contrinbute to this discussion.~

 

[Ebonyfire]

I do not do well with dominant men either. I have thought about it, and I think it is because I do not want any man to think he is the boss of me. I ain't having it.

However, I do well with dominant men when there is only friendship. And that is the way I (and they) like it.

Eb

 

[Marquis]

~I'm out I have nothing more to contrinbute to this discussion.~

I think we've all heard this one before.

 

[JMohegan]

I have given 8 years of my life in service to this country

Do you mean military service? If so, I would like to take this opportunity to extend my sincere thanks to you.

That's something else I have to feel guilty about. Military service. Or rather, my lack of the same.

I am not talking about guilt for the fact that thousands died on Omaha Beach or at Pearl Harbor. The guilt I feel stems from the fact that, while other young men risked their lives in this country's uniform, I was getting a college & graduate education, and starting my career.

It's true that military service was voluntary at the time, but there are circumstances compelling some to enlist that I did not face.

This guilt that I feel does not translate into self-flagellation, a lack of confidence, or remorse for my choices. But it does mean that I pay attention to veteran's issues, and it does have an impact on my active support for the same. It also has an impact on my views about war.

There is a direct analogy here to the other types of guilt that have been discussed on this thread. I understand that you do not want to continue in this discussion, and I respect your decision to refrain. But I ask you to think about this analogy for a while, and perhaps understand what I, at least, have been talking about here.

 

[O'Mac]

Do you mean military service? If so, I would like to take this opportunity to extend my sincere thanks to you.

That's something else I have to feel guilty about. Military service. Or rather, my lack of the same.

I am not talking about guilt for the fact that thousands died on Omaha Beach or at Pearl Harbor. The guilt I feel stems from the fact that, while other young men risked their lives in this country's uniform, I was getting a college & graduate education, and starting my career.

It's true that military service was voluntary at the time, but there are circumstances compelling some to enlist that I did not face.

This guilt that I feel does not translate into self-flagellation, a lack of confidence, or remorse for my choices. But it does mean that I pay attention to veteran's issues, and it does have an impact on my active support for the same. It also has an impact on my views about war.

There is a direct analogy here to the other types of guilt that have been discussed on this thread. I understand that you do not want to continue in this discussion, and I respect your decision to refrain. But I ask you to think about this analogy for a while, and perhaps understand what I, at least, have been talking about here.

This is completely off-topic as well, but I wanted to share those remarks. In my opinion, choosing not to enter the Canadian Armed Forces after high-school (which was a very real option I gave myself) is by far the biggest regret I have.

 

[saw_man1]

I think we've all heard this one before.

Unfortunately, I don’t think we have ever heard it from you.

 

[Marquis]

Unfortunately, I don’t think we have ever heard it from you.

Hi saw_man1!

Have we ever spoken before?

 

[LadyAria]

I'm surprised of the volume of male opinion that spoke at all on the subject.

 

[O'Mac]

I'm surprised of the volume of male opinion that spoke at all on the subject.

What can I say? We're all happy for you broads!

 

[kc1224]

Good insight

This was actually a HUGE issue for me at first when I was (and still am) coming to grips with my sexuality. It has taken me a lot - tons - of really hard work to get where I am in life (not to say i'm president or anything). It's taken a lot of NOT being submissive and not letting men (it's just been the way it is, women can be MUCH worse) push me around and tell me I'm not good enough or that I don't equal my male counterparts becuase I'm not male.

Because of this I've trained myself over the years to view submission as a weakness. Why should a man control me? Am I an idiot? What have I worked for? Why would I want to be in an unequal relationship? Why should I serve another and He not serve me?

I can't say I have found the answers to these questions but I know why I am ok with it. I am really happy with who I am. I know He knows I am capable and intelligent and could conquer anything I set my mind to. I also know that He knows that I don't "actually need" (I could do it on my own) for him to master me, but I really do need it in an emotional - deep feeling.

I'm not sure that this helps - but my rambling helped me - thanks!

Thanks for your good insight into an issue that is bothering me as I begin to explore my submissiveness.

 

[littlegirlslut]

Thanks for your good insight into an issue that is bothering me as I begin to explore my submissiveness.

Thanks I'm really glad I could be of help.

 

[tanyachrs]

To me, "equality" is all about judging individual people on their individual merits. It doesn't matter whether women are more this on average or less that in general or inclined to some other thing. I'm not an average and neither are you, so when you and I are dealing with each other, averages are meaningless. What matters is whether I am more this, less that, or likely to as compared to you. And even that only matters in the context of the task at hand. If I'm a better writer, have more endurance, am not afraid of snakes, and can walk in 5" heels while you understand string theory, can bench press 250, aren't afraid of heights, and have long hair, which of us should change the tire?

I have no problem with individual men and/or women being individually dominant and/or submissive and the true definition of equality is your and my freedom to choose.

 

[NemoAlia]

Apparently this topic has completely captured my mind. Even though it's been weeks since I last contributed to this thread, it still keeps me awake at night.

I've already made several points, and you'll be glad to know I'm not going to repeat them here. (Although if anyone felt like going back and responding to them, I'd be totally up for talking more about them!) I'm just adding a new one:

If women consistently continue to take advantage of our tax-supported education system without becoming significant contributors to our federal income tax...

If women consistently continue to leave good careers just when they've reached a point where they've become indispensable...

If women consistently continue to veer away from positions of legislative power and authority...

...we will lose the opportunities for education, careers, and power. People do not keep inviting you to their parties once you've turned them down twice.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Bump....

 

[Netzach]

Apparently this topic has completely captured my mind. Even though it's been weeks since I last contributed to this thread, it still keeps me awake at night.

I've already made several points, and you'll be glad to know I'm not going to repeat them here. (Although if anyone felt like going back and responding to them, I'd be totally up for talking more about them!) I'm just adding a new one:

If women consistently continue to take advantage of our tax-supported education system without becoming significant contributors to our federal income tax...

If women consistently continue to leave good careers just when they've reached a point where they've become indispensable...

If women consistently continue to veer away from positions of legislative power and authority...

...we will lose the opportunities for education, careers, and power. People do not keep inviting you to their parties once you've turned them down twice.

I personally believe that you do have to choose kids or career. You can do both, sure, but in the end one of those will be more important. To the vast majority of women with kids it's a natural answer: my children. To a few guilty ones who had them because they "had to" and it's "what you do" they will say "my children" and know to themselves, that it's not, or they wish it weren't.

The option to just not reproduce is so seldom floated as one as to be ridiculous.

It's not morally acceptable in this culture for a woman to choose a career over her children. Men do it every day to no comment, spread the seed around and still have no real relationship with it once its born. Women wear the giant albatross of guilt. Someone still has to raise them though, so to me, it's really worth thinking through before you go pop some out.

I choose art. I chose art. I can't offer a reasonable future to children because of it, I do not have stability and never will, probably. That's not the only reason, but I made that call. Guilt trips inquisition and general distrust and suspicion are what you get for it rather than "oh, good, you know what you want."

I also pay into the tax system so I don't get that part. I even pay into the tax system that goes toward educating other people's kids and I wish more of my buck went there and I worry that they're still winding up ignorant and semi-feral half the time.

I don't think as many women are in opt-out mode as people like to say, though. I think there are still glass ceilings and I know personally there are tons of assumptions made about me as an employee based on the assumption that I'm going to have kids or I must have small kids.

This digresses from whether I should be ashamed of my nasty ass perverted self though.

 

[Netzach]

Something weird:

people are taking all the human culture more or less up till the last 200 years. Let's argue that some of Rousseau might have applied to women in someone's mind just for the shits and giggles factor, OK....

and they're acting like the recent is somehow some accepted status quo, some giant oppressive program that female submission RADICALLY bucks!

Am I just a whacked out conspiracy theorist if I'm going to say that not everyone is getting the "girls can do anything" memo. Even if you just look at the west and all the pink domestic doll crap from China that girls get every year, there's still a HUGE push

to be passive
smile
get boys
have babies

as your personal biological forgone conclusion. The thing is that most feminist subs I know realize that the entire idea of a female sexuality as a valid drive, as a reason to do things IS a feminist idea or presents a feminist challenge. Women's sexuality whatever its shape or interests is something which doesn't even exist as a valid construct or as anything of import outside of reproduction till the beginnings of feminism.

People pursuing sexual pleasure mess up the status quo however they do it. Men have paid prices also for being labeled perverse, fornicators - going too overtly outside the lines.

 

[Marquis]

I think it's high time I had a few neglected children of my own.

 

[intothewoods]

Something weird:

people are taking all the human culture more or less up till the last 200 years. Let's argue that some of Rousseau might have applied to women in someone's mind just for the shits and giggles factor, OK....

and they're acting like the recent is somehow some accepted status quo, some giant oppressive program that female submission RADICALLY bucks!

Am I just a whacked out conspiracy theorist if I'm going to say that not everyone is getting the "girls can do anything" memo. Even if you just look at the west and all the pink domestic doll crap from China that girls get every year, there's still a HUGE push

to be passive
smile
get boys
have babies

as your personal biological forgone conclusion. The thing is that most feminist subs I know realize that the entire idea of a female sexuality as a valid drive, as a reason to do things IS a feminist idea or presents a feminist challenge. Women's sexuality whatever its shape or interests is something which doesn't even exist as a valid construct or as anything of import outside of reproduction till the beginnings of feminism.

People pursuing sexual pleasure mess up the status quo however they do it. Men have paid prices also for being labeled perverse, fornicators - going too overtly outside the lines.

You have no idea how much I think about this lately.

Although I talked a big game and knew intellectually, you can have it all, but just not all at once, and blah blah, I had no fucking clue. The thing is, I'm not good at balance. I can't have a kid and go, ok, cool, I'll go back to work in 3 months. Or 6 months. It's not that I haven't read the studies that say kids in daycare do just as well. It's just that my wiring says, NEED BABY NOW. Or it did with the first. I don't know if it's because the birth was so hard, or what, but my protective freak out instincts went off when I even thought about going back to work.

And then I finally went back about a year ago, and my whole sex drive changed. Not that I was a frigid bitch or anything. But all of a sudden I was super sexed up. And I wanted to be me, not mommy me.

And now I have the itch again and I'm like, damn, if I get married again, and have a kid, is it going to be this whole roller coaster? It just feels like the pulls on me as a women are so intense. I didn't expect it to be so intense.

Yeah, I love working, and for my career, shouldn't be leaving for a 2 year stretch, or even a 1 year stretch. But when I'm in mommy mode, I'm all about my kidlet. I don't know - it's really tough.

 

[BiBunny]

I personally believe that you do have to choose kids or career. You can do both, sure, but in the end one of those will be more important. To the vast majority of women with kids it's a natural answer: my children. To a few guilty ones who had them because they "had to" and it's "what you do" they will say "my children" and know to themselves, that it's not, or they wish it weren't.

The option to just not reproduce is so seldom floated as one as to be ridiculous.

It's not morally acceptable in this culture for a woman to choose a career over her children. Men do it every day to no comment, spread the seed around and still have no real relationship with it once its born. Women wear the giant albatross of guilt. Someone still has to raise them though, so to me, it's really worth thinking through before you go pop some out.

I choose art. I chose art. I can't offer a reasonable future to children because of it, I do not have stability and never will, probably. That's not the only reason, but I made that call. Guilt trips inquisition and general distrust and suspicion are what you get for it rather than "oh, good, you know what you want."

I have so much I want to contribute, but I can't make it come out sounding even halfway intelligible right now. I'll suffice it to say that I agree 110% with everything you've said here. Women do not have to have children. I, for one, knew when I was still a child myself that I wasn't cut out for them. So why in God's name do I catch hell for it every time I say that? There are plenty of children in the world. The world's population is not going to be in any kind of severe danger because I know myself well enough to know that I'm too self-centered and too prone to fits of inattention and impulsiveness to have any business with a kid or six. And, no, dammit, I'm not going to change my mind when I get older.

 

[intothewoods]

Oh, btw, hell to the yes, you do not have to have kids. I just wanted them.

 

[naughtycakes]

Wow - you guys are very analytical and have brought up many thought-provoking ideas. I - a virtual lit forum virgin - have been spending most of my time at the GB where everybody's just making fun of each other.

I don't consider myself a submissive, though I love to be dominated and even slightly humiliated during sex by my partner. Outside of the (proverbial) bedroom, I'm confident, bossy and take no shit.

I've always identified myself as a feminist and though at first I was a little conflicted by my sexual proclivities, I'm totally over it now.

After reading through this thread I have to say that it's nice to see other people who put so much thought into analyzing their kinks. I don't know that I have anything of substance to add to this thread other than.. thanks for sharing!

 

[BiBunny]

Oh, btw, hell to the yes, you do not have to have kids. I just wanted them.

The bolded part is, in my opinion, the only acceptable reason to ever have a child. If you truly want them, you should certainly have them. When in doubt, however, do without.

 

[Netzach]

I think it's high time I had a few neglected children of my own.

It's your prerogative. I mean you could do it to less censure and you could gain millions of brownie points as an upstanding citizen if you DO involve yourself with them to the degree that every woman is expected to off the bat.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the issue is to get more men AND women involved in the quality parenting and attention of the people they choose to spawn, not to have more women who *knew* they really wanted another life resenting their offspring and hiring a nanny if they can and just beating 'em up or something if they can't IE. leveling the playing field of how perfectly great it is to have kids and ignore them.

I think this "you can do both, it's simple" is a major flaw, fallacy, and lie of Feminism big F. But I think it's kind of sad that the reactionary regret-filled "now I stay at home and I dropped out and my life is SO MEANINGFUL" narrative has replaced the "you can do both it's simple" one, to the exclusion of people who have perhaps HAD their children and go back and go for it after they reach whatever age (god forbid older women have visibility or validation) or people who just never wanted to go that route and a lot of women don't.

And it doesn't leave room for the vast majority who do have to do everything and who somehow don't feel like it's easy, seamless, or even know that they're glad they're doing it at times - the dose of reailty that you cannot be in two places at the same moment. It's not a happy "wow, I'm so glad I dropped out of the world of work" story for the vast majority of people who simply cannot afford to do it.

Anyhow, it really irks me that "well you can't really handle traditionally male aspects of power, because all you bunch could drop babies any moment" is a valid reason in our OWN minds for double standards. I refuse to find it satisfactory that I should be limited or punished for a choice I could possibly make based on assumption, and think to myself "well they're right not to bet any chips on me, oh well."

 

[Marquis]

That reminds me, has Hillary been fixed yet? Is she still menstruating?

This is an issue I hope to see Wolf address in the situation room.

 

[Netzach]

That reminds me, has Hillary been fixed yet? Is she still menstruating?

This is an issue I hope to see Wolf address in the situation room.

I'm sure it's coming, although I think they get more fear out of spinning her as sexless frigid possibly lesbian.

Because there's no winning that one. We're still not Italy.