Feminism and BDSM...

[alexanna]

I personally believe that you do have to choose kids or career. You can do both, sure, but in the end one of those will be more important. To the vast majority of women with kids it's a natural answer: my children. To a few guilty ones who had them because they "had to" and it's "what you do" they will say "my children" and know to themselves, that it's not, or they wish it weren't.

The option to just not reproduce is so seldom floated as one as to be ridiculous.

It's not morally acceptable in this culture for a woman to choose a career over her children. Men do it every day to no comment, spread the seed around and still have no real relationship with it once its born. Women wear the giant albatross of guilt. Someone still has to raise them though, so to me, it's really worth thinking through before you go pop some out.

I choose art. I chose art. I can't offer a reasonable future to children because of it, I do not have stability and never will, probably. That's not the only reason, but I made that call. Guilt trips inquisition and general distrust and suspicion are what you get for it rather than "oh, good, you know what you want."

I also pay into the tax system so I don't get that part. I even pay into the tax system that goes toward educating other people's kids and I wish more of my buck went there and I worry that they're still winding up ignorant and semi-feral half the time.

I don't think as many women are in opt-out mode as people like to say, though. I think there are still glass ceilings and I know personally there are tons of assumptions made about me as an employee based on the assumption that I'm going to have kids or I must have small kids.

This digresses from whether I should be ashamed of my nasty ass perverted self though.

I am one of the ones who "have it all". I agree either your family or your career is more important, they are never equal. I have existed in both modes. I spent a couple of years climbing the corporate ladder because it was fun, I enjoyed it immensely and my family often took a back seat. My husband was purposely less ambitious than he could have been in his own career at this time in order to take up the slack. I personaly found once I reached a certain level my enthusiasm for it dried up a bit and I have found an equilibrium where my family is now truly more important and I am no longer concerned with getting any closer to that glass ceiling (it most certainly exists).

I will say the machine makes several accomodations for me which if I am honest is indeed because I am a woman with children. I make a nice salary and get to work from home in a city where the company does not have a big presence (its not even a HUB). Many people cannot understand why am allowed to do this (until they work with me that is ) I have heard of similar accomodations being made for female doctors and lawyers who make a name for themselves and win all kinds of accomodations their male counterparts would not get when they decide they want to have children and spend more time with their families.

I do also associate with several women who have chosen not to have children and in the corporate set this is not at all frowned upon.

It is absolutely true that as a woman I am not "allowed" to value my career more than my children, however my husband doesn't either, but I understand this is not the norm.

 

[Homburg]

I have so much I want to contribute, but I can't make it come out sounding even halfway intelligible right now. I'll suffice it to say that I agree 110% with everything you've said here. Women do not have to have children. I, for one, knew when I was still a child myself that I wasn't cut out for them. So why in God's name do I catch hell for it every time I say that? There are plenty of children in the world. The world's population is not going to be in any kind of severe danger because I know myself well enough to know that I'm too self-centered and too prone to fits of inattention and impulsiveness to have any business with a kid or six. And, no, dammit, I'm not going to change my mind when I get older.

The only reason why I would give someone like yourself or Netzach grief for not having kids is because you two are intelligent, articulate, perverse, and subversive. The world needs more people with those sorts of genes and memes breeding. The problem is that the smart, subversive types aren't having as many babies as the dull sheep-like proles.

Does this mean I would give you grief for not having kids? Fuck no. The worst parents are the ones that did not want their kids in the first place. Kids require emotional investment, and loads of it.

Maybe we can compromise, and people like you can donate eggs or something. Pass those subversive genes along; think of the good you could do for your species!

Eugenics for fun and profit...

 

[alexanna]

I actually think part of the reason BDSM is so popular is because of the strides women have made in the last 100 years. What we have now is definitely far better than the subjugation of half of society but from a sexual perspective its boring. Equality and mutual respect is not exactly a breeding ground for passionate tension. The gains of feminism did come with a price and we are now struggling to figure out how to keep the equality and recapture the passion. A very worthwhile pursuit as far as I'm concerned.

We're the pioneers in this endeavor I guess.

As far as masculine vs feminine that is a whole other set of issues. The feminine has been supressed for centuries and I don't think feminism did all that much to set it free. What feminism has done to a large degree is to help women develop their masculine and succeed in a masculine world as masculine players. Our society has to large degree relagated the feminine to domestic duties and squelched feminine power until it is hard to recognize it anymore. My personal belief is that the next step in feminism is to recapture the power of the feminine and allow it to operate in the world at large to its fullest extent.

One thing I don't think I saw in this thread has been how feminism has emasculated men in general. I firmly believe that as women have developed their masculine in order to succeed in the world men have had to "get in touch with their feminine side" in order to provide equilibrium. I don't think this is necessarily good or bad, it just is.

David Deida has some interesting things to say on this topic and I have enjoyed reading him.

 

[alexanna]

I have a not very well thought out or informed hypothosis about female domination based on absolutely no real experience.

I think its probable that a good portion of female Domme's dominate using masculine energy and in much the same way that a male Dom dominates. I also think their are Domme's who use powerful feminine energy instead that we have to a large degree lost. Goddess worship as it were. I can easily see how even very masculine men could love and appreciate being dominated by a powerful feminine force so hard to find in today's society.

That's my unformed thought on the subject if anyone wants to weigh in as to whether or not I am completely off base.

 

[Netzach]

I have a not very well thought out or informed hypothosis about female domination based on absolutely no real experience.

I think its probable that a good portion of female Domme's dominate using masculine energy and in much the same way that a male Dom dominates. I also think their are Domme's who use powerful feminine energy instead that we have to a large degree lost. Goddess worship as it were. I can easily see how even very masculine men could love and appreciate being dominated by a powerful feminine force so hard to find in today's society.

That's my unformed thought on the subject if anyone wants to weigh in as to whether or not I am completely off base.

I don't think it's off base, but it's kind of a gross oversimplification that doesn't really fit any of my gender dynamics. But I'm only attracted to men who are also pretty exploratory in their gender, I can't fathom being excited about being with a guy who's really into the binary hetero-ness of it all. But I know women who ARE very much into FemDom as a kind of goddess worship sexual energy thing. That's just not my gig. Neither is my style what I'd call especially masculine though.

Yeah, feminism left a vacuum for men. But we like to blame feminists for something that would never have HAD to happen if there weren't a couple thousand years of status quo fucking women over to react to. I blame the patriarchy for not coming up with any other imaginings for what men can be. I blame it for the reactions of women to it that may not be super ideal. Mommy fucks up everyone and Daddy gets off scott free - feminists are ruining the world for their sons but where's Dad? What's he doing? The boy's being told he's not a pansy if he cries one second and girls are still largely hunting for men who will treat them like crap because it's so very exciting. It's a perplexing deluge of messages which don't add up to anything, but I think it has more for men and for women than the other messages.

I've seen what specific traditional expectations can do to a man not suited to them. I believe that's what killed my stepfather to a large extent.

 

[Primalex]

Bump....

Voodoo girl! Respect the dead!

 

[alexanna]

The boy's being told he's not a pansy if he cries one second and girls are still largely hunting for men who will treat them like crap because it's so very exciting. It's a perplexing deluge of messages which don't add up to anything, but I think it has more for men and for women than the other messages.

Sums it up nicely.

 

[Homburg]

What we have now is definitely far better than the subjugation of half of society but from a sexual perspective its boring. Equality and mutual respect is not exactly a breeding ground for passionate tension. The gains of feminism did come with a price and we are now struggling to figure out how to keep the equality and recapture the passion.

This is the truth. Tension breeds passion. Friction makes fire.

 

[rakess]

reading anyone?

For those reading junkies out there, I highly recommend the "Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. She wrote the book in the 80s when there was a lot of discussion in the feminist community about porn and prostitution. It's a quick read, but there's a lot of depth in it. I think she basically argues that feminism is about a degree of choice that a woman has in our society and that this doesn't only apply to women. I mean, the amount of freedom that white women have is arguably a lot more than minority women have. Anyway, it's a good read (all of her books are).

 

[intothewoods]

I actually think part of the reason BDSM is so popular is because of the strides women have made in the last 100 years. What we have now is definitely far better than the subjugation of half of society but from a sexual perspective its boring. Equality and mutual respect is not exactly a breeding ground for passionate tension. The gains of feminism did come with a price and we are now struggling to figure out how to keep the equality and recapture the passion. A very worthwhile pursuit as far as I'm concerned.

We're the pioneers in this endeavor I guess.

As far as masculine vs feminine that is a whole other set of issues. The feminine has been supressed for centuries and I don't think feminism did all that much to set it free. What feminism has done to a large degree is to help women develop their masculine and succeed in a masculine world as masculine players. Our society has to large degree relagated the feminine to domestic duties and squelched feminine power until it is hard to recognize it anymore. My personal belief is that the next step in feminism is to recapture the power of the feminine and allow it to operate in the world at large to its fullest extent.

One thing I don't think I saw in this thread has been how feminism has emasculated men in general. I firmly believe that as women have developed their masculine in order to succeed in the world men have had to "get in touch with their feminine side" in order to provide equilibrium. I don't think this is necessarily good or bad, it just is.

David Deida has some interesting things to say on this topic and I have enjoyed reading him.

First of all, I don't think the successes of womenkind have made sex boring, or made people turn to bdsm or other kinky endeavors. I think there are a lot of factors at play, but generally speaking, sex was always boring! We have such high expectations for our lives in this generation, at least in the western world.

I also don't think feminism is exactly to blame for emasculating men. It's political correctness, and the way we oversimplify everything. If feminism alone were to blame, it would be because feminism was a complete success, and it isn't.

I don't even know where to begin to provide the answers, but it certainly is not as simple as feminism. If anything, we are more gender-polarized than ever. I can't go into a freaking kids' store without being faced with BLUE or PINK. The end, no other choices from birth! No wonder we have this thing called gender queer. We are all going to be gender queer soon enough.

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, OK, I never found sex boring, but then that was because I wouldn't allow it to be....it certainly left me wanting something more, but I found out what that was and I have it now....but never, ever boring!!

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

First of all, I don't think the successes of womenkind have made sex boring, or made people turn to bdsm or other kinky endeavors. I think there are a lot of factors at play, but generally speaking, sex was always boring! We have such high expectations for our lives in this generation, at least in the western world.

I also don't think feminism is exactly to blame for emasculating men. It's political correctness, and the way we oversimplify everything. If feminism alone were to blame, it would be because feminism was a complete success, and it isn't.

I don't even know where to begin to provide the answers, but it certainly is not as simple as feminism. If anything, we are more gender-polarized than ever. I can't go into a freaking kids' store without being faced with BLUE or PINK. The end, no other choices from birth! No wonder we have this thing called gender queer. We are all going to be gender queer soon enough.

Yeah I didn't get this "the patriarchy is dead and you will only meet boys who are scared of hurting you" memo. I have to go OUT of my way carefully, all the time, if I want to date men who can handle an equal partner let alone a Dominant one.

 

[intothewoods]

LOL, OK, I never found sex boring, but then that was because I wouldn't allow it to be....it certainly left me wanting something more, but I found out what that was and I have it now....but never, ever boring!!

Catalina

Me either - see how privileged we are? In all seriousness, I meant, when I compare my life to someone who is just trying to survive, kinky sex v. vanilla seems like quite a luxury.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Me either - see how privileged we are? In all seriousness, I meant, when I compare my life to someone who is just trying to survive, kinky sex v. vanilla seems like quite a luxury.

Oh yes, that it is!!

Catalina

 

[DeservingBitch]

For those interested, http://sm-feminist.blogspot.com/ is a really interesting and insightful pro-sm feminist blog.

 

[Tyr51]

Feminism......
I am a card carrying member of the National Organization of Women. I am most definately a feminist.

Hey, I am also a theatre director, and I run my own non-profit.
I also happen to be a sub.


It comes down to something very, very very simple.




Our grandmothers and greatgrandmothers handcuffed themselves to baracades, were arrested, and were denied even the right to go on a hunger strike (they were forcefed; no thought.... they were not *people*). This is what they were fighting for:

- Being viewed as a citizen. This means having the right to vote, own property, sue, divorce....... WE are not property. WE are not lesser. WE are not stupid and thus need to be protected. We are FULL CITIZENS and I will die for my right to be as equal to ANYONE in this land. Shove a feeding tube down my throat? I'll feed you your own liver. Don't....even....try....it.

- Being allowed equal education, equal pay for equal work, and equal health care. We're still working on these. It's such a battle.

My desire, or even need, to give up some personal power to a well loved and trusted person does not even remotely touch on my right to vote or be counted as human. One is a sexual choice of power exchange. One is a responsability to be a whole and responsable human being; and I have never given up my responsabilities in the search of comfort and sexual excitement.

I have a duty as a human being, a citizen, of my nation, to be well informed, work hard, vote, make a difference, and better my world.

And, when I am tired at the end of the day? I am *privaledged* to be able to go to someone who makes my needs seem simpler, who I can please, and a place where I can focus on something immediate.

*nods*

Yes. :\

 

[Marquis]

Feminism......
I am a card carrying member of the National Organization of Women. I am most definately a feminist.

Hey, I am also a theatre director, and I run my own non-profit.
I also happen to be a sub.


It comes down to something very, very very simple.




Our grandmothers and greatgrandmothers handcuffed themselves to baracades, were arrested, and were denied even the right to go on a hunger strike (they were forcefed; no thought.... they were not *people*). This is what they were fighting for:

- Being viewed as a citizen. This means having the right to vote, own property, sue, divorce....... WE are not property. WE are not lesser. WE are not stupid and thus need to be protected. We are FULL CITIZENS and I will die for my right to be as equal to ANYONE in this land. Shove a feeding tube down my throat? I'll feed you your own liver. Don't....even....try....it.

- Being allowed equal education, equal pay for equal work, and equal health care. We're still working on these. It's such a battle.

My desire, or even need, to give up some personal power to a well loved and trusted person does not even remotely touch on my right to vote or be counted as human. One is a sexual choice of power exchange. One is a responsability to be a whole and responsable human being; and I have never given up my responsabilities in the search of comfort and sexual excitement.

I have a duty as a human being, a citizen, of my nation, to be well informed, work hard, vote, make a difference, and better my world.

And, when I am tired at the end of the day? I am *privaledged* to be able to go to someone who makes my needs seem simpler, who I can please, and a place where I can focus on something immediate.

*nods*

Yes. :\

Yeah, yeah.

You gotta lotta passion in you baby, I like that.

Can we get a pic, sweetheart?

 

[Tyr51]

I have pictures available for the appropriate persons, marquis.
I am responding to a question about feminisim in a thread dedicated to the topic.
I would prefer to stay on topic.



I hope you did not mean your response to be as hurtful as it was.

 

[BiBunny]

I have pictures available for the appropriate persons, marquis.
I am responding to a question about feminisim in a thread dedicated to the topic.
I would prefer to stay on topic.



I hope you did not mean your response to be as hurtful as it was.

Not to worry. That's the kind of thing that passes for humor around here, as it were.

I thought your previous comment was quite insightful.

 

[Tyr51]

Thank you, BiBunny. *hugs*

I appreciate the clarification.
I also hope it is understood that some subs can approach this conversation with seriousness. It is an important dialogue to have.

 

[KokopelliRises]

For those reading junkies out there, I highly recommend the "Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. She wrote the book in the 80s when there was a lot of discussion in the feminist community about porn and prostitution. It's a quick read, but there's a lot of depth in it. I think she basically argues that feminism is about a degree of choice that a woman has in our society and that this doesn't only apply to women. I mean, the amount of freedom that white women have is arguably a lot more than minority women have. Anyway, it's a good read (all of her books are).

I absolutely loved this book.

Just to put this out there, do what you will with it:
The BDSM and D/s community and feminists have at least one thing in common: they both value consent in activities (sexual and non-sexual) for all involved.

 

[alexanna]

I don't even know where to begin to provide the answers, but it certainly is not as simple as feminism. If anything, we are more gender-polarized than ever. I can't go into a freaking kids' store without being faced with BLUE or PINK. The end, no other choices from birth! No wonder we have this thing called gender queer. We are all going to be gender queer soon enough.

I've always loved dressing my babies in green and yellow because the blue\pink thing is so annoying. I'm not really sure what all that blue and pink means anymore though. Pink just equals one kind of consumer and blue another but I'm pretty sure its definitely just about making consumers. I get you though, just not sure what it means really. Personally I am really uncomfortable with how sexy and adult the little girls clothes become once you reach age 7 and I am loath for my daughter to ask for a Bratz doll. I do find it much much harder to shop for my daughter than my son because the choices for her seem to require so much less creativity but I cannot argue that with all the stimulation we provide all she really wants is a princess dress and some fancy shoes. My son gets interested sometimes but is much more balanced. He's happy to dress up like batman, have some play makeup applied by his sister or apply it for her and then sit and play legos.

I do see more gender neutral toys in the big box stores these days. Target has a couple of isle's of them in their toy department and the color of those isles is indeed green and yellow. I used to have to go online or to specialty stores for these items and pay a premium price so it is refreshing to now have other choices besides Hot Wheels or Barbie.

 

[alexanna]

LOL, OK, I never found sex boring, but then that was because I wouldn't allow it to be....it certainly left me wanting something more, but I found out what that was and I have it now....but never, ever boring!!

Catalina

Was probably me. I'm pretty sexually repressed for a femininst. At least I was till recently.

 

[JMohegan]

Yeah I didn't get this "the patriarchy is dead and you will only meet boys who are scared of hurting you" memo.

Did you get the one that says: "a wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ" ???

Apparently that statement appeared in a full page USA Today ad in 1998. Signed by our beer buddy, no less!

 

[Homburg]

Thank you, BiBunny. *hugs*

I appreciate the clarification.
I also hope it is understood that some subs can approach this conversation with seriousness. It is an important dialogue to have.

All the more reason to lighten it up with some humour. It's sexuality, politics, and rights, not cancer. Hell, I'll make jokes about cancer if I feel like it will lighten the mood properly. Yes, politics and civil rights is serious shit, but the discussions on serious shit get so damned dark and grave that people get even more wound up and self-righteous about the topic. We should be able to sit here and chat about these concepts openly, and that means allowing humour.

Frankly, I thought his comments were funny. I genuinely laughed at them, and found them bold and refreshing. Maybe it's because I'm a het male Dom, and priviledge affords me the distance to see humour where the oppressed see more oppression. Dunno. I've only recently got into the whole 'priviledge' concept, so I'm no expert. But, damn, I'm utterly unwilling to see ANY subject as not fit for humour here and there. Especially here on Lit.


--------------------

I've always loved dressing my babies in green and yellow because the blue\pink thing is so annoying. I'm not really sure what all that blue and pink means anymore though. Pink just equals one kind of consumer and blue another but I'm pretty sure its definitely just about making consumers. I get you though, just not sure what it means really. Personally I am really uncomfortable with how sexy and adult the little girls clothes become once you reach age 7 and I am loath for my daughter to ask for a Bratz doll. I do find it much much harder to shop for my daughter than my son because the choices for her seem to require so much less creativity but I cannot argue that with all the stimulation we provide all she really wants is a princess dress and some fancy shoes. My son gets interested sometimes but is much more balanced. He's happy to dress up like batman, have some play makeup applied by his sister or apply it for her and then sit and play legos.

I do see more gender neutral toys in the big box stores these days. Target has a couple of isle's of them in their toy department and the color of those isles is indeed green and yellow. I used to have to go online or to specialty stores for these items and pay a premium price so it is refreshing to now have other choices besides Hot Wheels or Barbie.

Eh, I'm not so sure that gender neutral stuff is all that wonderful. Little boys like toy cars and trains and such. It just works that way. My youngest son found his older brother Thomas the tank Engine stuff at about 18 months old. He had no concept of gender but he sure did love those trains. Wheels? Check. Cool noises? Check. Goes fast? Check. Right, it's heaven for little boys (big ones too). So Hot Wheels aren't all that bad, y'know?

Barbie, however, is satan. Yes, I know, I'm being unequal here, but that is because I see a big difference between the two. Hot Wheels vaguely reinforce gender stereotypes that boys like cars. Barbie reinforces the gender stereotype that girls lke dolls AND she presents an utterly fucked up view on how females should live, behave, and be focused on. And I don't even want to get started on the horrible body image that she reinforces. That said, I'm fine with baby dolls and the like. Little girls like dolls and such, so why not let them play with them. Those girls are more likely to need those nurturing and baby-handling skills than the boys will, simply because biology drops that role on mothers.

So I see some gender-intended toys as educational, plain and simple. Does it ladle more gender identity on them? Sure, but it also gives them introduction to important skills needed later on. And, as an aside, I have no problem with my sons playing with my daughters' dolls and play kitchens and such, and vice versa. Hell, I can't tell you how many times littlest brother had toenail and fingernail polish on because the girls decided they wanted to put some paint on him.