For those who assume supporting a Trump presidency over a Biden one means being a MAGA Trumper....

[JaySecrets]

Look, you have the truth in front of you. You just don't like it. So you redefine, dodge facts, and generally deflect. Far better than being a murderer or a supporter of it.

You are blind, willfully ignorant fools. I use those words not as shit-talking terms but in their proper definitions. Blind: you cannot see truth. willfully ignorant: you can't see truth because you don't want to see it because you don't like the implications of the truth. Fool: you reject wisdom and truth and embrace folly and self-deception.

I pity you.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Courts ruled that segregation and slavery were legal. Courts in Germany allowed for the termination of Jew. Courts in Muslim nations allowed for the rape and even murder of women.

If we're talking the past, sure, but we're not.

The whole point of the statement in the Declaration of Independence about inalienable rights, was that they are bestowed by God, not government. Because what a government can give, a government can take away. Behold your arbitrary god.

lol.........Separation of Church and State.

And when you put it in an incubator, it can. Just like if you have to rely on an iron lung you are still an individual life.

Abortions don't occur past the 25th week which is around the time a fetus may be able to survive outside the womb. Recall I am not in favour of Abortion. But I also understand biology, you don't.

And a 1 month old could not survive without its mother.

Yes it can.

Leave that child alone for a few days and see if it lives.

Now you're moving the goal posts. Which is funny since you mention and scenario where outside help beyond the mother is needed (incubator).
Ah the art of the Pretzel.

The debate is about whether or not a human life is sacred or disposable.

No the debate is about who has control of who's body.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Okay. Time for the birds and the bees talk. If a man and a woman have sex, and a child is conceived, nothing went wrong. That is the natural, normal outcome of sex. If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. If she didn't want the baby, she should not have had sex. If he didn't want to be a father, he should not have had sex. Really simple here.

lol, it's about responsibility. If a woman gets pregnant, you demand she carry that fetus to term. While you steadfastly refuse to take action on your part which would prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

 

[ll74]

Look, you have the truth in front of you. You just don't like it. So you redefine, dodge facts, and generally deflect. Far better than being a murderer or a supporter of it.

You redefining words? Truth?

Got it.

You are blind, willfully ignorant fools. I use those words not as shit-talking terms but in their proper definitions. Blind: you cannot see truth. willfully ignorant: you can't see truth because you don't want to see it because you don't like the implications of the truth. Fool: you reject wisdom and truth and embrace folly and self-deception.

I pity you.

You continue to say my position, that a woman decides whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term is hers to make is wrong.

That position is clear and it is valid for you to have it. You can lobby for lawmakers to make policy for that position. I encourage you to do so.

You have not yet supported my right to lobby for my position. That truly is where the OP, which started very differently, is bullshit. You don't want to discuss policy - you want to tell people they are wrong.

Good luck in lobbying for your position.

 

[adrina]

You are a pathological liar, I never ever wrote that women should be forced to carry full term. Because I personally am against on demand abortions doesn’t mean that I would take that choice away from women. You’re such a bullshitter.

Define this ridiculous phrase.

 

[coati]

You are blind, willfully ignorant fools. I use those words not as shit-talking terms but in their proper definitions. Blind: you cannot see truth. willfully ignorant: you can't see truth because you don't want to see it because you don't like the implications of the truth. Fool: you reject wisdom and truth and embrace folly and self-deception.

I pity you.

OK, those are typical opinions by a MAGAt.

You have successfully answered the implied question in your thread title.

 

[InThe312]

OK, those are typical opinions by a MAGAt.

You have successfully answered the implied question in your thread title.

Followed by "just wait, you will see that I'm right and you're wrong, sheep."

 

[JaySecrets]

If we're talking the past, sure, but we're not.

Yet they would have made the same argument then. Time is not relevant here, truth that transcends time is.

lol.........Separation of Church and State.

That phrase or concept is nowhere in the Constitution. In fact our founding documents reference God as the source of liberty. And did you know our government, for the first 100-ish years of our existence, funded the printing of Bibles and sometimes even the sending of missionaries? Did you know that many of the founders and those in the first Congress were also pastors in churches or very active church members. Did you know our government established the chaplaincy in every aspect of its life, and that was a distinctly Christian chaplaincy until very recent history?

The founders never intended religion to stay away from politics. Quite the opposite. They considered a government without God a dangerous one, and a people without that moral base unworthy of good governance.

What they said is that Congress was not to establish an official state church, that they were not to interfere with the practice of people's faith, public or private. The phrase you quote was taken out of context from a letter from Jefferson written to a pastor stating in a different way what I just did. A Supreme Court Justice, in a very split decision, gave the contents of a letter, a LINE in a letter, ripped out of context, the weight of the founding documents. It was a blatantly unconstitutional move by the courts.

The founders would be shocked and appalled at how their words are being twisted and abuse to justify evil and crimes by you today.

Abortions don't occur past the 25th week which is around the time a fetus may be able to survive outside the womb. Recall I am not in favour of Abortion. But I also understand biology, you don't.

You ignore all the evidence of lungs, brain, heartbeat, feeling pain, response to voices and music and foods... You ignore a baby's obvious humanity, and therefore human rights, because doctors who love the money they make killing them tell you to. That is sick.

Yes it can.

Now you're moving the goal posts. Which is funny since you mention and scenario where outside help beyond the mother is needed (incubator).
Ah the art of the Pretzel.

No. I am making a simple statement. But since you seem to be deaf, I will say it louder and clearer. ALL HUMAN LIFE IS SACRED. A BABY IN THE WOMB IS A HUMAN LIFE MADE IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD. TO TAKE AN INNOCENT HUMAN LIFE IS MURDER. TO TAKE THE LIFE OF AN INNOCENT BABY AT ITS MOST VULNERABLE IS SICK AND DAMNABLE NO MATTER THE EXCUSE YOU GIVE.


That clear enough?

No the debate is about who has control of who's body.

 

[adrina]

LOL ^^ The idiot acts as if the abrahamic religions are in agreement with each other.

 

[ll74]

That phrase or concept is nowhere in the Constitution. In fact our founding documents reference God as the source of liberty. And did you know our government, for the first 100-ish years of our existence, funded the printing of Bibles and sometimes even the sending of missionaries?

Jay wants a theocracy.

 

[Pad_Foot]

So I heard one thing here

If the female did not not want to have sex then it’s not a normal pregnancy

So for incest and rape we should allow the pregnancy to be terminated? Cool

That’s off the table!!

Now.. at what point does the “baby” have the right to life over the mother??

At what point can’t the dead “baby” be removed from the healthy woman so that she might have another??

Please we need your Almighty insight!!

Oh.. and by the way, if God didn’t approve of abortions why can’t the omniscient, all powerful, omnipresent being stop all abortions?? Why does HE need your help?

I’m going to look up all the references to GOD in our Constitution and Declaration of Independence now. I think I missed all of those. (Oh.. left out entirely? On purpose? Gee? Why?)

 

[JaySecrets]

Jay wants a theocracy.

No. I don't want a theocracy. There was only one legit theocracy in the history of the world and that was Israel. What I want is a return to the fundamental morals that we understand instinctively. We do certain things in the dark and behind locked rooms because we know they are wrong. Belief is a matter of the heart and will, and that can't be forced. What I want is want the founders wanted... A morally right governance that expects people to live basically morally right so people can know the greatest joy and freedom of life and mind, and for the protection of life, all human life, to bea centerpiece. You know. Like America was founded to be.

 

[Pad_Foot]

Okay. Time for the birds and the bees talk. If a man and a woman have sex, and a child is conceived, nothing went wrong. That is the natural, normal outcome of sex. If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. If she didn't want the baby, she should not have had sex. If he didn't want to be a father, he should not have had sex. Really simple here.

So all the ways that modern medicine has created to allow a couple to have a baby are off the table??

 

[ll74]

No. I don't want a theocracy. There was only one legit theocracy in the history of the world and that was Israel. What I want is a return to the fundamental morals that we understand instinctively. We do certain things in the dark and behind locked rooms because we know they are wrong. Belief is a matter of the heart and will, and that can't be forced. What I want is want the founders wanted... A morally right governance that expects people to live basically morally right so people can know the greatest joy and freedom of life and mind, and for the protection of life, all human life, to bea centerpiece. You know. Like America was founded to be.

There are several existing theocracies currently, Iran being one of note.

The problem that you have is that your religion is not a state religion, the government is made from the people,not from the religion. Whether a majority believes in one particular religion means nothing except what they elect to accept.

As many other people, you have the issue of believing morality can't exist without religion and the only proper morality must come from your specific religious beliefs

Adding- Israel is not a theocracy

 

[RoryN]

I would personally like to thank the MAGAt Trumper who started this thread, as my first response to it has netted one of the largest amount of "likes" I've ever received for a post of mine.

 

[JaySecrets]

I’m going to look up all the references to GOD in our Constitution and Declaration of Independence now. I think I missed all of those.

The Declaration of Independence mentions God in three different ways, including "Nature's God," "Creator," and "Divine Providence". The first mention is in the first sentence, which refers to the "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" as the source of power. The second mention is when God is referred to as the Creator who gives humans unalienable rights. The final mention is in the last paragraph, which refers to "divine Providence".

And when you read what the founders wrote and and said about this, which is very relevant since they wrote the documents....

George Washington​

1st U.S. President


"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."

John Adams​

2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty...

Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.

Thomas Jefferson​

3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence


"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever..."

John Hancock​

1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence


"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."

Benjamin Franklin​

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution


"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

Samuel Adams​

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution
And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace.

James Madison​

4th U.S. President


"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."

Alexander Hamilton​

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution


"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor."

Patrick Henry​

Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution


"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

John Jay​

1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society


"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible.



Can't imagine that these guys, you know, the ones who were actually there, would agree with a word you have said about morality, the value of life in the womb, responsibility, or any other subject. Funny how you want to appeal to constitutional "rights" not one of the founders would have said were rights, and would have burned the document in a heartbeat if they thought it would be used in such a perverse way.

 

[ll74]

The Declaration of Independence mentions God in three different ways, including "Nature's God," "Creator," and "Divine Providence". The first mention is in the first sentence, which refers to the "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" as the source of power. The second mention is when God is referred to as the Creator who gives humans unalienable rights. The final mention is in the last paragraph, which refers to "divine Providence".

And when you read what the founders wrote and and said about this, which is very relevant since they wrote the documents....

George Washington​

1st U.S. President


"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."

John Adams​

2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty...

Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.

Thomas Jefferson​

3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence


"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever..."

John Hancock​

1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence


"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."

Benjamin Franklin​

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution


"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

Samuel Adams​

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution
And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace.

James Madison​

4th U.S. President


"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."

Alexander Hamilton​

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution


"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor."

Patrick Henry​

Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution


"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

John Jay​

1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society


"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible.



Can't imagine that these guys, you know, the ones who were actually there, would agree with a word you have said about morality, the value of life in the womb, responsibility, or any other subject. Funny how you want to appeal to constitutional "rights" not one of the founders would have said were rights, and would have burned the document in a heartbeat if they thought it would be used in such a perverse way.

Your religion is not the religion of our country. Our country is a Republic whose laws are decided by the people, not by the Bible.

If citizens enact a religious focused law, it is because they choose to do so.

I.e. - if you believe your religious morality should take precedent, then lobby and campaign to gather enough votes or support from reps to enact those types of laws.

If other people have more votes or support that disagree with your viewpoint, then your view won't become policy.

 

[InThe312]

That phrase or concept is nowhere in the Constitution. In fact our founding documents reference God as the source of liberty.

Do you know else is not in the Constitution? God or any divinity for that matter. The "creator" (by the way, there is no clarification that this is YOUR creator...it could very well be Gandalf for all we know) was mentioned in the declaration of independence, which has no rule of law. It may have been an inspiration for many lawmakers, but it is nothing more than a cease and desist sent to the King.

 

[HisArpy]

Yes. That's exactly how they will do it. In fact, it seems the law was engineered specifically that. Anonymous tips. Although Abbott will know what address to send the bounty reward to.

So you agree that Texas abortion laws are Draconian and unreasonably intrusive, correct?

No.

I agree that the laws aren't constitutional and won't stand a legal challenge. The hystronics are yours to shout at your strawman.

 

[JaySecrets]

There are several existing theocracies currently, Iran being one of note.

The problem that you have is that your religion is not a state religion, the government is made from the people,not from the religion. Whether a majority believes in one particular religion means nothing except what they elect to accept.

As many other people, you have the issue of believing morality can't exist without religion and the only proper morality must come from your specific religious beliefs

Adding- Israel is not a theocracy

I didn't say theocracy. I said LEGITIMATE theocracy. And I used past tense. As in it was at its founding as the literal Glory and Physical Manifesting of God's Presence was among them and the Priests and Judges delivered His verdict. Even then people rebelled. Because we don't want to be accountable to God.

And that is the reason, the real issue that keeps you from seeing the truth. You don't want to. So your religion becomes humanism, your God, self, your worship, sex, your rite, abortion, your creed, "No God". Because if you acknowledge Him, acknowledge there is a Creator and He holds mankind accountable, you are in trouble. And since you don't like the terms of His Mercy, and want to just live without any accountability, you just pretend He isn't there, that creation itself isn't shouting His Existence and His Glory. Problem is, He is still there, still real, His Law still reigns supreme, and like any Just Judge, you will be accountable before Him

 

[JaySecrets]

Your religion is not the religion of our country. Our country is a Republic whose laws are decided by the people, not by the Bible.

If citizens enact a religious focused law, it is because they choose to do so.

I.e. - if you believe your religious morality should take precedent, then lobby and campaign to gather enough votes or support from reps to enact those types of laws.

If other people have more votes or support that disagree with your viewpoint, then your view won't become policy.

The Founders disagree. Read what they said. You lose that round.

 

[SmokingFap]

No.

I agree that the laws aren't constitutional and won't stand a legal challenge.

Fair enough. So you support the laws, you just don't think they'll stand up in court. Got it.

 

[InThe312]

I have a new suggestion. I propose the following law. Much less invasive to all involved and will certainly cause the old men who wish to rule over women's bodies some pause.

- All men are required to submit their DNA at some point in their childhood, prior to puberty.
- Women are required to carry all pregnancies to term
- When the child is born, a DNA test is performed and if the baby daddy is unknown, reference the DNA database.
- Baby daddy is required by law to care for the child for the first 40 weeks post birth and can be charged with criminal child abuse, abandonment, etc. should he not perform all duties as a parent.
- After the 80-ish weeks after conception, the parents can choose whether to put the child up for adoption or continue to raise them.

The old men who wish to rule over women's bodies will rush legislation to protect themselves from every having to take any responsibility. Problem solved.

 

[SmokingFap]

The Founders disagree. Read what they said. You lose that round.

Maybe you should go back and reread all that stuff. Half of them were deists who believed in a vague Supreme Being, not the God of the Bible, and certainly not Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. And I think the whole thing about not letting Congress pass a law respecting any religion made it pretty clear that ultimately they decided America should have a secular government.

 

[HisArpy]

Fair enough. So you support the laws, you just don't think they'll stand up in court. Got it.

As I have always maintained on this board - I stand for the law. Even when I disagree with it, I stand for the law.