For those who assume supporting a Trump presidency over a Biden one means being a MAGA Trumper....

[Fuzzy1975]

And that's my point. I can point to the abundant evidence of His Hand and design.

I can point to an abundance that isn't from his hand..See how "faith" or "belief" works.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

All you did was relocate a baby who can't survive on its own. If it's in the womb it's not a baby.

Now we are getting somewhere....so a fetus isn't a baby!!

If it's a baby in one location, it's a baby in another.

No a baby is a definition, of a human who can survive outside the womb. A Fetus is a potential human growing inside and fully dependant upon the mother for life.

So killing it in one location is as much murder as in the other, no matter what a law says.

By definition, ( yes you hate those) you can only murder a human who can live outside of a womb. No matter what you think or feel.

 

[JaySecrets]

No you don't. You spend time trying to stop abortion.

You have no idea what I spend my time doing. I spend my time actively involved in reaching out to homeless and outcasts. I spend my time involved in restoring voice to the ones society has written off - the ex-con, the addict, the ones who messed up in their life and have been through heavy broken. I spend my time hiring the ones who others won't hire because of their pasts. I spend my time loving others because I care for people. I spend my time doing the messy, hard work of taking the risk of personally investing in them. That is what I spend my time and resources on.

And because I love, because I value people, I spend some of that time defending the most innocent and vulnerable of human life. I don't hate women. I care for innocent babies. The idea that pitting the mother against the precious, sacred life growing in her womb, that this is caring for women... That's sick. That life she carries in her, that separate and beautiful being, no matter how ideal or tragic the circumstances that led to its being, no matter what disability or disadvantages he or she may have or face, is a beautiful creation that holds as much worth as a 50-year-old woman who finds the cure for cancer.

And I am thankful that there is a God who came to die to forgive sins, including the sins of the woman, or the abortion doctor, or the man or woman who paid, who were all involved in murder. Murder, like any other sin, is not unforgivable. But calling it murder is not hate. It is simply calling it what it is. If the truth hurts.... change your behavior towards it. Some of the most profound voices against abortion are men and women who have had abortions or been involved in the abortion industry. Then they saw the evidence of their crimes, were repulsed by the murder they were involved in, and now are the most passionate against abortion BECAUSE they know what it is. They did it themselves, many of them top experts in that vile field.

Love does not say, "Whatever you want to do is okay." Love says, "I want better for you." And love protects innocent life while reaching out with a message of forgiveness for those who have harmed that life. It also warns of impending judgement for those who don't accept the forgiveness on the terms of the Forgiver.

 

[adrina]

You have no idea what I spend my time doing. I spend my time actively involved in reaching out to homeless and outcasts. I spend my time involved in restoring voice to the ones society has written off - the ex-con, the addict, the ones who messed up in their life and have been through heavy broken. I spend my time hiring the ones who others won't hire because of their pasts. I spend my time loving others because I care for people. I spend my time doing the messy, hard work of taking the risk of personally investing in them. That is what I spend my time and resources on.

And because I love, because I value people, I spend some of that time defending the most innocent and vulnerable of human life. I don't hate women. I care for innocent babies. The idea that pitting the mother against the precious, sacred life growing in her womb, that this is caring for women... That's sick. That life she carries in her, that separate and beautiful being, no matter how ideal or tragic the circumstances that led to its being, no matter what disability or disadvantages he or she may have or face, is a beautiful creation that holds as much worth as a 50-year-old woman who finds the cure for cancer.

And I am thankful that there is a God who came to die to forgive sins, including the sins of the woman, or the abortion doctor, or the man or woman who paid, who were all involved in murder. Murder, like any other sin, is not unforgivable. But calling it murder is not hate. It is simply calling it what it is. If the truth hurts.... change your behavior towards it. Some of the most profound voices against abortion are men and women who have had abortions or been involved in the abortion industry. Then they saw the evidence of their crimes, were repulsed by the murder they were involved in, and now are the most passionate against abortion BECAUSE they know what it is. They did it themselves, many of them top experts in that vile field.

Love does not say, "Whatever you want to do is okay." Love says, "I want better for you." And love protects innocent life while reaching out with a message of forgiveness for those who have harmed that life. It also warns of impending judgement for those who don't accept the forgiveness on the terms of the Forgiver.

What's funny is that you think I'm going to bother reading that.

Have a nice Memorial Day having your head explode because others don't share your faith. Take a xanax or something.

 

[JaySecrets]

Now we are getting somewhere....so a fetus isn't ....

Yadda, yadda, "I want the right to murder babies so I will do or say or redefine any way and every way I can to justify it because my lust and my pleasure is of utmost importance and any life that results as evidence of my illicit pleasures should be able to be killed if I don't want the evidence around." I think that pretty much covers your stance.

 

[JaySecrets]

What's funny is that you think I'm going to bother reading that.

Have a nice Memorial Day having your head explode because others don't share your faith. Take a xanax or something.

What's sad is that you make an assumption of what someone's heart and motive is, and when they respond, you ignore what they say. Then you call others hateful and judgmental. Methinks maybe you should spend Memorial Day doing some serious self-examination.

 

[adrina]

What's sad is that you make an assumption of what someone's heart and motive is, and when they respond, you ignore what they say. Then you call others hateful and judgmental. Methinks maybe you should spend Memorial Day doing some serious self-examination.

Dude... you don't get it. You're not original. The pattern has been seen and identified. Your lack of self awareness doesn't change that.

 

[adrina]

There's no hate quite like christian love.

 

[JaySecrets]

I can point to an abundance that isn't from his hand..See how "faith" or "belief" works.

I'm happy to compare that evidence. Evidence of design is abundant. Evidence of no design simply isn't there, just a lot of theories trying to explain away the evidence of design. Yours is a blind faith - time plus c't chance and suspension of natural laws. Mine is a faith informed by fact and evidence. And there is nothing I believe I haven't challenged. I would recommend the book Evidence That Demands A Verdict, or the book I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist. Very good books on that front.

 

[JaySecrets]

Dude... you don't get it. You're not original. The pattern has been seen and identified. Your lack of self awareness doesn't change that.

No. I am not an original. At least not in that sense. (Everyone, even the baby in the womb, is uniquely designed by God. Even you.) The problem is you impose your bias on me and people like me instead of listening to their story or position in full. Then you whine if you are shut down or not heard. Maybe read what my life actually looks like, what I actually do and believe, before making your broadstroke statements.

 

[coati]

Not a new convert. I'm 45, was raised in a home that took it farther than I believe they should have, and I questioned and challenged everything that I hold dogmatically. The allusion here is that legit spirituality holds uncertainty as a virtue. That is foolishness. Certainty and a holding to absolutes is kinda why God gave the Bible to begin with. It would be a pretty hateful God to say, "I have a standard, but I'll leave you to figure it out, but if you don't, you will deal with the consequences. Good luck." And a Holy God with no absolute standard is like saying a just judge who lets criminals go without consequence. The two thoughts are incongruent. By your standard, the judge who has an absolute legal standard he holds others and hopefully himself to is arrogant. Sorry, that's not the standard the Creator works with. He wasn't made in our image, we were made in His.

I do have a past, and I have old associates on here, an older hand on here under a different name (no, not the name that someone on here keeps accusing me of). I happen to have a lot of respect for the poets who post on here, many of whom ore brilliant. I am aware of my own hypocrisies. They don't change the truth of what I'm saying, and my life is generally pretty consistent with what I post. My hypocrisies are not what you may assume. I don't come on here for the erotica side. I come here for the Lit side, because I do have people I genuinely like on here. And there is a lot I wrestle through. (On Lit, for the record, I post on here, the poetry thread, and the audio thread, and I mainly focus on the poetry side, because a good poet's group and community can be hard to find, and on this side because it tells me the point of unhinged liberal bumpersticker thought is at.)

As for this idea that I see the world in black and white, you clearly know nothing about me. There are many areas where, even if I disagree with the conclusion, I value the story of how a person got there. Just because a person is wrong on their conclusion, doesn't mean they are wrong about the issue they raise. And even if they are partially wrong about the issue, it doesn't mean there isn't good reason those perceptions are in place. In one of my missional projects, I work with the former Milwaukee and Wisconsin Poet Laureate and her husband, both BLM liberals who are as black liberal as I am a Midwest conservative. But the conversations we have challenge each other, we all see the bs on our perspective sides, and call it out. She sees the issues with the BLM organization, takes serious issue with the leadership and the riots, and finds herself on the same side of some social conclusions as I do. I take issue with a Trump cult of personality, can distinguish between the man and some policies I agree with, and hate blind following and bumpersticker answers on the left and the right. Each of us take hits from both sides.

But that does not mean there are not absolutes. That does not mean that the liberals, who control the seats of "education" in this country, have redefined terms to suit their agenda, have reframed history, information, and conversations by removing and replacing context, and have brainwashed generations into a pop culture that is so arrogant to think they, not One higher than them, are the standard for truth, that does not mean this crowd gets a pass. There is right. There is wrong. God wrote it on our conscience. God gave it in His Book. God literally came down to live as one of us to BE that Truth, then to die and raise again do save us from the consequences of our rebellion against that truth. And all legitimate Truth is a natural outflow from the principles of the fundamental Truths He laid out. Those are the basic truths, by the way, that historically were referred to as "the laws of nature and nature's God". And those are the basic start points that, like it or not, are at the very heart of our founding documents.

Had you said half of what you have said on here, you would have been considered traitors to this nation by the founders. And had they heard you use their words to try and justify legal murder of babies in the womb or taking God out of education, they would have a LOT of rebuttals against your twisting of their words. We know this because we know the values that they held, the values that shaped their words. You are just flat wrong on so many of these issues by any historical, objective standard.

Do I have things I struggle with? Yes. Are there times I fail? Yes. But the beauty of Truth is that it doesn't depend on the messenger to be accurate or right. It just IS. And I think that's pretty loving of God to not leave us in the dark to keep guessing.

Yup, all those words ^^^pretty much sum up MAGAt brainwashing.

 

[JaySecrets]

There's no hate quite like christian love.

Yep. "Love your enemies. Bless them that curse you. Do good to them that spitefully use you." "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and sacrificed Himself for it." "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not parish, but have eternal life." "By this will all men know that you are My disciples, that you love one another." Sounds pretty hateful to me.

 

[JaySecrets]

Yup, all those words ^^^pretty much sum up MAGAt brainwashing.

You realize that, like anything else, when everything is MAGA, nothing is?

I said nothing about Trump except a passing comment by way of example. That wasn't even remotely a side point. But if you don't like what a person says, you just slap MAGA on it and think you have won. All you do is show how deranged you really are.

 

[adrina]

Wall. A wall would absorb more. And a wall would preach less.

Jay would be more valuable to society as a wall.

Well heeeeyyyy here we go, we send him to the border! Problem solved.

Now that's a productive morning.

 

[JaySecrets]

Wall. A wall would absorb more. And a wall would preach less.

Jay would be more valuable to society as a wall.

Well heeeeyyyy here we go, we send him to the border! Problem solved.

Now that's a productive morning.

Resorting to hubris only shows a lack of coherent logic and a place of no argument against what is presented. Funny how often your side ends up there.

 

[adrina]

Back to the wall. You know how one can bang their head against a wall repeatedly and the only thing that happens is a sore head and a pretty much completely unaffected wall....

Yeah. Hubris isn't the problem. It's experience.

Go to the border Jay.

 

[coati]

You have no idea what I spend my time doing. I spend my time actively involved in reaching out to homeless and outcasts. I spend my time involved in restoring voice to the ones society has written off - the ex-con, the addict, the ones who messed up in their life and have been through heavy broken. I spend my time hiring the ones who others won't hire because of their pasts. I spend my time loving others because I care for people. I spend my time doing the messy, hard work of taking the risk of personally investing in them. That is what I spend my time and resources on.

And because I love, because I value people, I spend some of that time defending the most innocent and vulnerable of human life. I don't hate women. I care for innocent babies. The idea that pitting the mother against the precious, sacred life growing in her womb, that this is caring for women... That's sick. That life she carries in her, that separate and beautiful being, no matter how ideal or tragic the circumstances that led to its being, no matter what disability or disadvantages he or she may have or face, is a beautiful creation that holds as much worth as a 50-year-old woman who finds the cure for cancer.

And I am thankful that there is a God who came to die to forgive sins, including the sins of the woman, or the abortion doctor, or the man or woman who paid, who were all involved in murder. Murder, like any other sin, is not unforgivable. But calling it murder is not hate. It is simply calling it what it is. If the truth hurts.... change your behavior towards it. Some of the most profound voices against abortion are men and women who have had abortions or been involved in the abortion industry. Then they saw the evidence of their crimes, were repulsed by the murder they were involved in, and now are the most passionate against abortion BECAUSE they know what it is. They did it themselves, many of them top experts in that vile field.

Love does not say, "Whatever you want to do is okay." Love says, "I want better for you." And love protects innocent life while reaching out with a message of forgiveness for those who have harmed that life. It also warns of impending judgement for those who don't accept the forgiveness on the terms of the Forgiver.

I am not impressed by your account of your "credentials", and I think your control-freak approach to religion sucks.

 

[coati]

I said nothing about Trump except a passing comment by way of example. That wasn't even remotely a side point. But if you don't like what a person says, you just slap MAGA on it and think you have won. All you do is show how deranged you really are.

Trump loves arrogant and dogmatic evangelicals like you. Why, he's such a loving god, you don't even need to utter his name to enter his king-dumb.

 

[JaySecrets]

I am not impressed by your account of your "credentials", and I think your control-freak approach to religion sucks.

Not trying to impress anyone. I live my life simply and with genuine love and sacrifice for others. Don't really care what you think about it. Just making clear that assigning motive to someone with a lack of information is useless and self destructive.

 

[JaySecrets]

Trump loves arrogant and dogmatic evangelicals like you. Why, he's such a loving god, you don't even need to utter his name to enter his king-dumb.

I think I already made this clear, but I don't like or even trust the man. I prefer Tim Scott. But since the only other option is a socialist regime... he's the choice I have left. A god? Hardly. A flawed man with lots of issues, but with more good policies than a Biden.

And that ignores anything I said in the post you are responding to.

 

[coati]

I think I already made this clear, but I don't like or even trust the man. I prefer Tim Scott. But since the only other option is a socialist regime... he's the choice I have left. A god? Hardly. A flawed man with lots of issues, but with more good policies than a Biden.

And that ignores anything I said in the post you are responding to.

Whatever you say, MAGAt.

 

[JaySecrets]

A well put statement that gets to why you don't get to set definitions and terms of debate with me.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Yadda, yadda, "I want the right to murder babies so I will do or say or redefine any way and every way I can to justify it because my lust and my pleasure is of utmost importance and any life that results as evidence of my illicit pleasures should be able to be killed if I don't want the evidence around." I think that pretty much covers your stance.

You can try and tap dance around the definitions, but at the end of the day, a Fetus is a Fetus, until born. Further until the 28th week or there about, the Fetus is depend upon the mother for survival. Or in other words the Fetus is parasite until born.

Now if you happen to peruse my posts you will find I am not in favour of abortion. In fact I stated that in a reply to one of your nonsensical posts. Take that and shove it up your proverbial ass.....*chuckles*

I'm glad you use the term fanatic, because you can be against abortion, and still be in favour of pro choice.

I for one am not in favour of aborting a Fetus

So no you didn't "cover my stance". You simply projected your beliefs and ideals on me...

 

[JaySecrets]

You can try and tap dance around the definitions, but at the end of the day, a Fetus is a Fetus, until born. Further until the 28th week or there about, the Fetus is depend upon the mother for survival. Or in other words the Fetus is parasite until born.

Now if you happen to peruse my posts you will find I am not in favour of abortion. In fact I stated that in a reply to one of your nonsensical posts. Take that and shove it up your proverbial ass.....*chuckles*




So no you didn't "cover my stance". You simply projected your beliefs and ideals on me...

I simply got through the bullshit to the heart of what you believe, no matter how you twist language and reframe arguments to hide your heart condition and soul attitude.

As for your other redundant argument, a 5 week old, left alone, will die absent care and nourishment too. We are still talking location, not human status. Your argument is self defeating unless you would like to advocate for post-birth abortion too.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I'm happy to compare that evidence.

Why bother....you will disregard anything I put forth.

Evidence of design is abundant.

Yes, Darwin showed that very well.

Evidence of no design simply isn't there, just a lot of theories trying to explain away the evidence of design.

Explain the Universe in one sentence.

Yours is a blind faith - time plus c't chance and suspension of natural laws.

No, I made up my mind after detailed analyisis. Where would you like to start? Noah's Ark is always a great place for a conversation. 400 feet long by 75 feet wide and 50 feet tall. It must have been pretty cramped with two's of every animal....

Mine is a faith informed by fact and evidence.

There is no evidence of God anywhere. None zero ziltch. It's why Religion is referred to by the word faith.

And there is nothing I believe I haven't challenged. I would recommend the book Evidence That Demands A Verdict, or the book I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist. Very good books on that front.

You've challenged lots of stuff, the problem is, nothing you have presented is tangible fact. But don't think I am trying to convince you on my thoughts on after death. I'm not.