How to compliment a woman

[Lord Pmann]

It's hard to put this into words, but I'm not ok with with the Chapelle argument. I've seen his stand up and I've even laughed at the joke.

The reason I think this is wrong is that women have historically been viewed as being the less sexual gender. We know now that women are just as sexual, but the view has been that women are proper and chaste and men are sexual beasts.

We associate a style of dress on a woman as being "whorish" because we see women as not being openly sexual. The moment she wears a tank top and short shorts she's a whore. Since she's openly being a whore, she MUST be looking to get that kind of attention. Otherwise, she'd wear loose fitting clothes that didn't accentuate her body.

As a side note, a whore or even a sex worker deserve as much respect as any other person.

Wearing tight fitting or "provocative" clothing doesn't take away a man's ability to be respectful. It doesn't automatically shut down his ability to be civil. To say that it's her fault for dressing that way is also to say that they didn't have control of their own actions.

As for that, I don't dress "provocatively" and I've gotten yelled at by passing cars, harassed in my own condo parking lot, and a man even grabbed my hair once to get my attention in passing. I'm not ASKING to be treated like this and by somehow eluding to "she was wearing THAT so she was ASKING for that treatment" is fucking bullshit.

I agree with some of what you said.

I want to make a few things clear about what I said.

1. I don't think it's cool or acceptable or whatever for guys to scream and holler and play grabass, regardless of what the girl is wearing or not wearing.

2. My comment about what a woman wears was specifically about the girl in the video. She said she was dressing to provoke. She then did so. Then she was shocked. I liken that to me wearing a Nazi symbol on my clothing to get a response. Then, I act offended when I get the very response I set out to get. This is VERY different than a girl who just dresses however. My problem with that segment is the girl was doing it on purpose.

3. People can dress how they choose. I have never spoken to a girl (a stranger) based on her clothing. If a girl's breasts were hanging out of her shirt, I would be inclined to look though. Absolutely.

But the argument that she was not asking for it is bullshit because, by her own fucking admission, she was asking for it. She said it herself. She was dressing to provoke. To titillate. To arouse sexually.

With that said, I still think the behaviour of the men was ridiculous and I would never do that. It has nothing to do with what a girl wears. It has to do with being a normal human as part of a mostly normal society. Sadly, some guys are assholes. And you shouldn't have to endure that. With that, I completely agree.

 

[Doog_kuron]

True story, I dressed up as a nazi SS officer for a fancy dress party, I got a lot of attention. I got mistaken for being a policeman or a member of the Salvation Army. Also as a side note I didn't get a single wolf whistle nor ass grab from the ladies sad times.

Back on topic, seems to me judging from what men and women have posted on this subject that there's a disconnect here. A difference of perspective. Many women on here consider themselves threatened by men, the term rape has cropped up with frightening regularity. I've already stated that I keep any comments to myself even if I felt they were sincere and complimentary. But I'm guessing had I uttered them they would not have been received in the way I intended them. Which is a shame really.

I get the sense that us men don't really comprehend just how much the things we say and do cause so much distress to women. I wonder if this has always been the case or if it's more a product of the current society.

 

[Lord Pmann]

bring back the bat - has to have a starring role.

Bastardly Bat?

Assault and Battery Bat?

Or, he could be a good guy. Benevolent Bat.


I'm really seeing this cartoon being a staple in the schools.

 

[satindesire]

While I do recall the comment about empowering in the video... but
"Hey honey I wanna grab ya arse" "Fuck off creep" seems a fair response to me.

I really can't see how that equates to the following at all


Are women not allowed to swear?

I knew this was going to happen.

I honestly don't understand how these guys can say things like this, be obviously sexist, bitch about Feminism and Feminists, then get mad when they're called out as being sexist.

Seriously.

The girl who wore the camera. She admitted to dressing provocatively. It's not like she wore the clothes and was clueless. Why would one dress provocatively which, by definition, is "to deliberately arouse sexual interest"? If you don't like those kinds of reactions, why would one "provoke"?

Honest question.

Women should wear burkahs. That'll keep women from being harassed and raped, right?

Oh wait...

You know what's wrong with your argument, dude? Everything, for one.

Some clothes are seen as provocative regardless of whether or not you wear them with the explicit purpose of being provocative.

it regularly gets up to 100 degrees here in Oklahoma in the summertime. I should not be forced to wear a turtleneck because some mouthbreather thinks "She's dressing deliberately provocatively so I have to harass her."

That's bullshit. It's victim blaming.

Stop it.

 

[Lord Pmann]

Women should wear burkahs. That'll keep women from being harassed and raped, right?

Oh wait...

You know what's wrong with your argument, dude? Everything, for one.

Some clothes are seen as provocative regardless of whether or not you wear them with the explicit purpose of being provocative.

it regularly gets up to 100 degrees here in Oklahoma in the summertime. I should not be forced to wear a turtleneck because some mouthbreather thinks "She's dressing deliberately provocatively so I have to harass her."

That's bullshit. It's victim blaming.

Stop it.

What is so interesting is your inability to see what I ACTUALLY wrote. I've said, numerous times, with numerous clarifications, my comment was in reference to the girl in the video. Your inability to have an argument without jumping to extremes is what has gotten us here.

The original question was about compliments. We are now onto rape and violence. And you have taken my comment regarding a girl saying she was being provocative to then saying that I'm suggesting that all women wear burkas. I don't know how on earth that's the conclusion one reaches from what I've said. It's a weak argument tactic known as a false dichotomy.

I live in Florida where it's 90-100 degrees every day for 4-5 months a year with humidity nearly that high. I know about heat. I don't expect women to wear burkas.

You've said that I blamed the victim. I posed the question, "Why did she deliberately dress to provoke and then complain when it did so?"

I asked a very specific question. Your inability to follow simple reasoning and logic has been proven here time and time again. The fact that you can't even look at a simple question or provide a simple response to it shows a lack of understanding. The weak argument tactic only leads me to believe you have no actual argument for your stance other than your normal rhetoric of "it's this way because I say it is".

I have said it many times, women should not have to endure that. However, you choose to ignore that. That's one of the many reasons why so many people here choose never to engage with you. Your complete lack of reason and self-awareness are a mindfuck, to say the least.

I will say this for, probably the fifth time...

My comment was regarding the girl in the video. Not women in general. Not women who wear those clothes without thoughts of provocation.

If you want to tell me what is wrong with my actual argument, the please do that. If you want to tell me what's wrong with an argument that I didn't really make, then do that as well. Either way, it's entertaining to watch. But one may actually draw something constructive. The other is just for entertainment purposes.

I do have one fantastic way for you to quickly stop the harassment from guys though. Simply open your mouth and have a conversation with them. It would be enough to make me to jump into a volcano face first. I promise you, once you start talking with them, the odds of them harassing you further are nil.

 

[Saucyminx]

Not only this, but you're a bitch because he's a charming old man being charming and old and raised in Mad Man era, and you're just a sourpuss.

I don't know why we're not the sex going postal every week.

Luckily I've never had a problem being either a bitch or a sourpuss when necessary.

I have what my friend's mom always called goon appeal. My mom always just said I was an asshole magnet. I've always chalked it up to being open and friendly. I make eye contact and smile with most everyone I see. In the last few years I have really started to rethink that policy but I hate the thought that other people get to change who I am.

 

[Lord Pmann]

My mom always just said I was an asshole magnet.

Bwhahaha. The image here is fantastic.

Are you board certified though?

 

[satindesire]

What is so interesting is your inability to see what I ACTUALLY wrote. I've said, numerous times, with numerous clarifications, my comment was in reference to the girl in the video. Your inability to have an argument without jumping to extremes is what has gotten us here.

Right, because you didn't say anything extreme either.

The original question was about compliments. We are now onto rape and violence.

Do you know why? Because rape, sex, and harassment are all articles of a society today that oppresses women. The OP specifically asked how he could without seeming -CREEPY- and many women not only explained how, but also WHY sometimes they feel men are being creepy. Part of that is sometimes, men harass and seem threatening. The reason they seem threatening is because many women have had experiences with men that are violent, physically and/or sexually. The conversation evolved, as all conversations do in EVERY THREAD ON LIT. This is not a new thing to you, you've been here long enough to recognize this.

And you have taken my comment regarding a girl saying she was being provocative to then saying that I'm suggesting that all women wear burkas. I don't know how on earth that's the conclusion one reaches from what I've said. It's a weak argument tactic known as a false dichotomy.

Wrong. You clearly said, "Don't wear these provocative clothes if you don't want comments." "Don't LOOK certain ways if you don't want to be TREATED certain ways." Which is sexist and completely victim blames women for "earning" bad treatment for "looking" like women who"deserve" it. It's not a weak argument, your argument is the same old sexist crap that men have thrown out as a stick to bash women with for years. There's no FALSE dichotomy there. Women never "deserve" to be harassed regardless of what she's wearing, because women are human beings and deserve to be treated like human beings.

I live in Florida where it's 90-100 degrees every day for 4-5 months a year with humidity nearly that high. I know about heat. I don't expect women to wear burkas.

No, you don't expect them to wear burkahs, you just expect them to not wear clothes that make them "deserve" to be harassed. So tell me, what clothes are "Okay" to wear, in your opinion? Obviously shorts, tank tops, shorter skirts or tighter fitting clothing is out. That would be "too provocative"

You've said that I blamed the victim. I posed the question, "Why did she deliberately dress to provoke and then complain when it did so?"

Because like every woman, she isn't stupid and recognizes that some clothes are considered provocative regardless of whether or not she's wearing them to draw forth comments from men. I -KNOW- my tank top is provocative. Does that mean I'm wearing it JUST to get hollered at? NO. That's the point.

I asked a very specific question. Your inability to follow simple reasoning and logic has been proven here time and time again. The fact that you can't even look at a simple question or provide a simple response to it shows a lack of understanding. The weak argument tactic only leads me to believe you have no actual argument for your stance other than your normal rhetoric of "it's this way because I say it is".

I never attacked you personally. I said your comments were sexist towards women. You need to either respectfully engage me and attack MY ARGUMENT instead of ME PERSONALLY or you can go back on ignore.

I have said it many times, women should not have to endure that. However, you choose to ignore that.

No, I saw your qualifiers. You said "don't dress like this unless you WANT comments. You know what's going to happen." It's great that you think women don't deserve this, but you negate that greatness when you say "What do you expect?" It's like you think men are out of control animals that can't be around women without acting like beasts! Men are better than this. They CAN control themselves, and should.

You didn't have to say anything about her clothes. You could have just as easily said, "No women deserves these comments, ever. No matter what she wears, women deserve respect." And no one would have said anything but to agree with you. It's one thing to recognize your clothing is provocative and it's another to wear it anyway because it's hot and people should act like grown ups regardless of what she's wearing.

That's one of the many reasons why so many people here choose never to engage with you. Your complete lack of reason and self-awareness are a mindfuck, to say the least.

I say things like "These comments are disrespectful and sexist to women." and instead of taking the time to put your ego aside and consider it, you attack me personally. Very classy.

I will say this for, probably the fifth time...

My comment was regarding the girl in the video. Not women in general. Not women who wear those clothes without thoughts of provocation.

If you want to tell me what is wrong with my actual argument, the please do that. If you want to tell me what's wrong with an argument that I didn't really make, then do that as well. Either way, it's entertaining to watch. But one may actually draw something constructive. The other is just for entertainment purposes.

I did. See above.

I do have one fantastic way for you to quickly stop the harassment from guys though. Simply open your mouth and have a conversation with them. It would be enough to make me to jump into a volcano face first. I promise you, once you start talking with them, the odds of them harassing you further are nil.

You're attacking ME again, instead of my argument. Stop it.

 

[MeekMe]

Hm, I see what you're saying about the woman in the video. She DID say she tends to dress provocatively. She also said that she didn't have to take the harassment. She volunteered as an example of what it can be like for a woman in a similar situation. Maybe she's not the best example for the average woman walking on the street.

If you'd like a more varied account try this one.

I realize that lots of sources are saying that women should try to have dialog with their harassers, but that's sometimes easier said than done. The next time I witness this, or have it happen to me I hope that I'd have the ability to do more than put my head down and look for a safer place. I can't guarantee that I will, though.

I think this is a difference of opinion and perspective. I talk a big game and say things like, "if anyone ever did this to me I'd punch them!" I'm well aware though that at the end of the day I'm vulnerable. It wouldn't even take a very big person to overpower me. The next time you have a nightmare in which you wake up saying the phrase, "I'll do anything you want, just please don't hurt me." Let's talk about it together and figure out what it means.

 

[Lord Pmann]

Right, because you didn't say anything extreme either.

Do you know why? Because rape, sex, and harassment are all articles of a society today that oppresses women. The OP specifically asked how he could without seeming -CREEPY- and many women not only explained how, but also WHY sometimes they feel men are being creepy. Part of that is sometimes, men harass and seem threatening. The reason they seem threatening is because many women have had experiences with men that are violent, physically and/or sexually. The conversation evolved, as all conversations do in EVERY THREAD ON LIT. This is not a new thing to you, you've been here long enough to recognize this.


I never attacked you personally. I said your comments were sexist towards women. You need to either respectfully engage me and attack MY ARGUMENT instead of ME PERSONALLY or you can go back on ignore.



No, I saw your qualifiers. You said "don't dress like this unless you WANT comments. You know what's going to happen." It's great that you think women don't deserve this, but you negate that greatness when you say "What do you expect?" It's like you think men are out of control animals that can't be around women without acting like beasts! Men are better than this. They CAN control themselves, and should.

You didn't have to say anything about her clothes. You could have just as easily said, "No women deserves these comments, ever. No matter what she wears, women deserve respect." And no one would have said anything but to agree with you. It's one thing to recognize your clothing is provocative and it's another to wear it anyway because it's hot and people should act like grown ups regardless of what she's wearing.

I do understand the evolution and devolution of threads. The reason for that wasn't because I lack comprehension. It was because I was saying that it's quite a leap that we've taken to get here.

I feel like some of you girls spend so much time feeling sorry for being women, which is insane to me. Maybe it's not your intent, but it's certainly how it comes across. Being a woman is not a bad thing and I certainly wouldn't be sad about it.

I did say, several times, that I don't think women should ever be treated with that kind of talk.

Post #186:

1. I don't think it's cool or acceptable or whatever for guys to
scream and holler and play grabass, regardless of what the
girl is wearing or not wearing.

Post #177:

For the record, I think their comments were incredibly
inappropriate. It sucks that she got treated like that, for
sure. I'm not saying that a girl can't dress how she wants. My
point was she was doing it to provoke. Then she complained
when it provoked.

Wrong. You clearly said, "Don't wear these provocative clothes if you don't want comments." "Don't LOOK certain ways if you don't want to be TREATED certain ways." Which is sexist and completely victim blames women for "earning" bad treatment for "looking" like women who"deserve" it. It's not a weak argument, your argument is the same old sexist crap that men have thrown out as a stick to bash women with for years. There's no FALSE dichotomy there. Women never "deserve" to be harassed regardless of what she's wearing, because women are human beings and deserve to be treated like human beings.


No, you don't expect them to wear burkahs, you just expect them to not wear clothes that make them "deserve" to be harassed. So tell me, what clothes are "Okay" to wear, in your opinion? Obviously shorts, tank tops, shorter skirts or tighter fitting clothing is out. That would be "too provocative"

Again, you're comments are completely out of context. You said this as if I said this for all women, of all time. I qualified it so many times by saying it was in regards to this video and the girl on the video.

When I said she asked for it, I mean she LITERALLY asked for it. Not figuratively. She dressed to titillate and then feigns shock at the attention she got? My question was about that. How can someone purposely dress provocatively and then be surprised when it provokes?

Because like every woman, she isn't stupid and recognizes that some clothes are considered provocative regardless of whether or not she's wearing them to draw forth comments from men. I -KNOW- my tank top is provocative. Does that mean I'm wearing it JUST to get hollered at? NO. That's the point.

So I still have the question which I posed around a page ago... If you wear something provocative, which provokes, why are you shocked or angered when it does just that? It's an honest question. You tell me that you don't wear it "just to get hollered at". So, do you wear it in part to get hollered at?

From what it seems to me, it's like one of those goth kids dressing up in black makeup and painting their face white and listening to shitty music about how much they hate their parents. They work on this look in order to distinguish themselves. Then, when people treat them differently, they say, "Fuck the world, you treat me differently because I look differently" when they've gone out of their way to do so.

I say things like "These comments are disrespectful and sexist to women." and instead of taking the time to put your ego aside and consider it, you attack me personally. Very classy.

You say things like, "Here's an argument you never actually made, you're sexist and misogynistic."

You're attacking ME again, instead of my argument. Stop it.

Fair enough. I will not attack you further, if you agree to only debate the arguments that I ACTUALLY make.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I just think it's sad that there are women who think that being able to say "F Off" is empowering.

This.

The right to be a complete and utter bitch is just as bad as misogyny.

No, it really REALLY isn't.

It shouldn't be celebrated under the guise of feminism. It does to feminism what creepy compliments do to genuine ones.

Does it?

When a woman tells you to "fuck off", do you start thinking stuff like "what if this turns violent? Should I get out of this space, look behind me to make sure they're not following, call a female friend to make sure I'm never alone with them? Should I tell them they're making me uncomfortable, or should I just nod and smile and avoid escalating?"

Or do you just think "wow, that was rude, I won't bother being nice to THAT one again" and go about your day?

The problem with this argument is that someone asked about complimenting a woman. Now we are talking about rape, sexual assault and cat calling. ... The argument and discussion was about compliments, not sexual assault.

"Hey, wanna go fishing down by the river?"
"No way, there are big-ass crocodiles in that river."
"This discussion was about fishing, not crocodiles."

The potential for things to turn violent is part of why compliments can be problematic, even when well-intended. Because women don't know the intent; they have to guess at it based on context, and sometimes that context isn't enough to guarantee safety.

 

[Doog_kuron]

Having trawled through this thread for a while now, I am sincerely glad I've been keeping my mouth shut. Use to think that perhaps a nice compliment might brighten 'her' day. But judging from the posts I get the impression said random girl would eye the nearest exit and reach into her handbag for the mace

I'm sensing that as a rule of thumb, unless you happen to know said lady it's best to keep tight lipped and get on with your day. Mind you it is interesting to see what some guys have been saying, crude and dripping with sexual innuendo. I'm amazed guys do that let alone touching, no matter how playful it was intended. I know someone joked about getting permission slips, but yikes!

 

[satindesire]

I do understand the evolution and devolution of threads. The reason for that wasn't because I lack comprehension. It was because I was saying that it's quite a leap that we've taken to get here.

I feel like some of you girls spend so much time feeling sorry for being women, which is insane to me. Maybe it's not your intent, but it's certainly how it comes across. Being a woman is not a bad thing and I certainly wouldn't be sad about it.

It's not a leap, it's a symptom of the culture of sexism.

When you talk about a cold, and people name their symptoms, do you say, "Wait no, no no...you were talking about having a COLD, now you're talking about having a sore throat? That's quite a leap."

It's the same thing. Sexism is lived by every woman on the planet, some more than others. Everything from feeling entitled to gratitude for giving a woman a compliment, to rape and domestic abuse, from the wage gap and the very few women in the STEM field, is all a symptom of sexism.

You think that when we speak about the things that happen to us, that we're playing the victim or "sorry" about being a woman. That's NOT IT. We're talking about how other people are trying to treat us as if being a woman is worse than being a man. Talking truthfully about what happens to us is not playing a victim or feeling sorry for yourself, it's speaking truth to power. What would help would be a lot less pity and dismissal and a lot more empathy, and to set aside your feelings of being attacked and LISTEN and ACCEPT what we say at face value with no judgement.

Just like with anything. It takes time to learn how to not take these issues personally. But you need to learn how. You need to if you want to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

Let me relate to you MY experience with this. I didn't have anyone sit me aside and teach me that when people talk about the abuses of the Christian Church, they weren't attacking ME or saying -I- was a bad person for being a Christian. What would have helped me was someone telling me that no one blamed ME for the abuses of the Church, but I WOULD be implicit in that abuse if I didn't learn about it, and speak up to try and stop it.

You're a man. That means if you want to make a positive effort to end sexism, you need to be educated on the experiences of women. And when you ARE learning, BELIEVE what you're hearing instead of ignoring it or dismissing it. Don't act like you want gender equality or that you hate it when women are harassed and then do nothing to stop it.

I pass as white. So because of that, I have White Privilege. That means I need to listen to the lived experiences of minorities and do my part to make a difference to end racism. That means I need to set my ego aside and not take the things they say personally. It means I need to be part of the solution and BELIEVE them when they talk about the things they've seen. It's HARD not feeling attacked, it's HARD to not let our egos get in the way of progress, but that's the ONLY way we're going to make a difference in the world.

I am cisfemale. That means I have cisprivilege and need to listen to the lived experiences of transgender people and do my part to make a difference and end transphobia. Trans people aren't playing the victim when they talk about transphobia, they're openly speaking about the bigotry they experience TO STOP IT. You cannot stop a problem by ignoring it. And when you say things that imply or even outright accuse oppressed communities of "playing the victim", you are silencing them. Silence will solve nothing, it just makes people that aren't oppressed feel more comfortable. It keeps bigotry the status quo.

Bigotry is a social cancer. Talking about it is the cure. You can't cure a disease by ignoring it. If you wouldn't tell a person with cancer to stop playing the victim or feeling sorry for themselves, don't tell women or any other marginalized people to be quiet about their experiences. Anyone with any human empathy would listen to them, believe them, and help them. Please have empathy instead of continuing the behavior that got them there!

So I still have the question which I posed around a page ago... If you wear something provocative, which provokes, why are you shocked or angered when it does just that? It's an honest question. You tell me that you don't wear it "just to get hollered at". So, do you wear it in part to get hollered at?

I mean no offense...but...Right now I feel like you're ignoring everything I said and trying to hammer home this point.

Here is my honest answer for your honest question. Recognizing that certain clothes are provocative is not the same thing as wearing them with the intent to provoke harassing responses. I'm going to tell you the same thing every time you ask that.

We know that certain clothes are considered provocative. We wear them anyway because it's more comfortable to stay cooler with those clothes. We wear them to be cool, not to be harassed.

What so many men think is that --we are being women AT men--. We are CONFRONTING men with our "attractiveness". We are going out of our way to be NOTICED. When 9 times out of 10 we are literally going about our day just trying to be good daughters/mothers/sisters, taking care of business and trying to be as comfortable as possible in order to.

Let's be real here, you're not psychic. No one is. So how can anyone KNOW when a woman's wearing provocative clothing "ON PURPOSE" to try and attract negative attention? How can you tell? You CANNOT tell. It is so much safer and more respectful for EVERYONE to assume that a woman wants to be left alone, no matter what she's wearing.

Fair enough. I will not attack you further, if you agree to only debate the arguments that I ACTUALLY make.

Which is what I've done the entire time. Refusing to let you move the goalposts and refusing to let you ignore what I've said isn't the same thing as "not debating the arguments you ACTUALLY make".

And one last thing, what Bramblethorn said? The "Right" to be a bitch is not "as bad" as misogyny. Women are systematically oppressed in every facet of our society. A woman telling a creep to "Fuck off" is not even close to that. Once our entire culture is telling YOU to "Fuck off", then you can compare the two as similar.

 

[bailadora]

What really scared me though was an incident that happened in late May earlier this year. As I was walking home from class, a man I’d never seen before approached me from behind and said, “Excuse me.” Thinking (naively) that he needed directions or something, I paused and said, “Hi?”

He then started walking with me, and struck up (random) conversation. Finding it odd but not wanting to be rude, I nodded and answered vaguely, trying to duck out of the conversation politely. Small-talk then suddenly took a sharp turn into the “Hitting-on-me” zone, and he sped up when I tried to escape. By this point, warning signals were going off in my head. He ended up following me almost all the way home, and when we reached my street, I bid him a hasty farewell as I turned into the street. I clearly saw him continue along our original trajectory, but when I chanced a glance behind me to check, he’d backtracked a good 10-15 metres to stand there and watch me walk away. Terrified, I sped up and walked right past my house, all the way to the end of the street where I turned to get out of his sight-range, and then hid in a park for almost 15 minutes. I was shaking badly by now, because he was still standing there, and I called my brother so it’d look like I was talking to someone in case he decided to try something. Once I saw that he was gone, I sprinted right back to my house and went straight inside. I was paranoid for many, many weeks afterwards

Based upon the above, I don't know how much more clearly the point can be illustrated as to why some women can be made uncomfortable by a seemingly well-intentioned compliment.

When a woman engages with a man she doesn't know, there is no way to know when an apparently innocent interaction is suddenly going to go horribly, horribly wrong. It is a gamble with one's safety - each and every time. Thankfully, I've never been physically attacked (verbally, yes). But I know women who have.

I don't want to live my life in fear, so I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, like the woman above me. Most times, things turn out well, and I come away with a smile. That said, until the moment I walk away unscathed, the concern for the potential of the situation to go wrong is there. It is totally unfair for the men who have good intentions. But it is a visceral reaction - it's there whether I want it to be or not.

I wish I could provide men with a manual on how to make all women feel safe 100% of the time (remember, I'm rearing a son). I can't. The best I can offer is this: have these conversations with the women in your lives. Ask what you can do to help make them feel safer. When you go to interact with a woman you don't know, be sensitive to the fact that until you prove yourself as one of the good guys, there's just no good way for her to know which group you're in. I know it's not fair to you personally but given what you have read from some of the women here, can you really blame them?

 

[Lord Pmann]

I mean no offense...but...Right now I feel like you're ignoring everything I said and trying to hammer home this point.

I'll address the other points that others have made later, but holy shit. This response... I'm ignoring your other points? I posted ONE question and made ONE comment that I wanted answered. It was a legit question. Yet, your entire posts have been telling me about how I don't listen and how I'm part of the problem. I have made other comments here and there, yes. But it's my one question that's the main reason I've been posting the last page or whatever.

The reason I'm trying to hammer home the one point is because you don't see that this was the main reason I was posting. Instead, you started arguing a point I never tried to make. Imagine if you posted a question and I started arguing everything that you never said. Frustrating, no?

I will say, this is by far the most coherent I've ever seen you make an argument.

 

[shiny5437]

Some clothes are seen as provocative regardless of whether or not you wear them with the explicit purpose of being provocative.

I think this is an oversimplification. I think to claim we dress only on the grounds of functionality skirts the issue. When we dress we make an assessment on whether we look good ie how do these clothes enhance my sexual capital? There is an inescapable implicit sexual dimension in how we appear.

This does not mean women invite harrassment. This does not mean guys should behave disrespectfully. But I don't think the situation can be fully understood without acknowledging this. It's the old elephant in the corner again...

 

[satindesire]

I think this is an oversimplification. I think to claim we dress only on the grounds of functionality skirts the issue. When we dress we make an assessment on whether we look good ie how do these clothes enhance my sexual capital? There is an inescapable implicit sexual dimension in how we appear.

This does not mean women invite harrassment. This does not mean guys should behave disrespectfully. But I don't think the situation can be fully understood without acknowledging this. It's the old elephant in the corner again...

If you talk to most women, they'll tell you that they dress to make themselves feel good. They dress FOR THEMSELVES, not to make strangers think they look sexier.

Or they'll tell you they dress to impress their girlfriends or partner.

Relatively few women dress specifically to make strangers think they look sexier.

And again, recognizing that certain articles of clothing could be seen as sexy doesn't mean that they're wearing them specifically to be sexy.

 

[bailadora]

it's not empowering. it's engaging. there is a difference.

In your opinion. Maybe telling the jerk to fuck off makes her feel like she's standing up for herself.

Don't show me some woman dressed like a pay-to-play stereotype and expect me to be surprised. Show me some average woman at work, trying to get through her day at the office.

Okay. Here you go.

The men in the video thought they were paying her a compliment. She didn't take it as such, and tried to explain why she was uncomfortable. Instead of "hey, sorry, didn't mean to make you uncomfortable", notice how they're telling her why they're right and she's wrong?

But then have the balls to show me what women constructively do to free themselves of this kind of behavior. It's not enough to just say, "it happens because men are assholes."

Honestly, I don't have a good answer for you. Ideally, I'd like to confront them like the woman in the video linked above. Why don't I? Mostly, I'm afraid to. If I'm lucky, all that happens is that my opinion gets ignored. Worst case scenario - it gets physical. It's a chance I'm not willing to take.

Educating the men in my life? Tried - with varying levels of success:

"Eh - you're too sensitive".
"It's just boys being boys."
"It has nothing to do with sexism. It's more about people being assholes."

It's frustrating, because most of them are truly good people. The one who has been most receptive is my son. I had him watch the #yesallwomen twitter feed with me. We've read multiple articles, watched videos on the subject. We discuss the problems of terms like "friend zone." I've explained that while it's not his fault our society is the way it is, it IS his responsibility to do what he can to change it. I've asked him to think before he speaks. I've asked him to call out his friends for sexist behavior. They're lessons that I hope stick. He's at the age where the opinions of his friends are becoming more important.

 

[NightL]

If one person reading this thread, watching that video stops to think how they may more positively engage with actually anyone, the whole process is worth it.

So I believe the following quoted post is one of the most inspiring of this whole thread

Inform the men in your life

I know for myself the fact that this many women feel threatened on a daily basis, is not only shocking, but very upsetting. I would suggest to all females to make this known to all of the males in your life. My Mom, Sister, Wife, and two Daughters have never expressed feeling threatened by men in public. When those I love feel threatened, or if I perceive a threat to those I love, it has a visceral effect on me. If I knew that my actions would have this kind of effect on women, I would not continue those actions.

So, back to the original question

try a pleasant smile.

 

[shiny5437]

If you talk to most women, they'll tell you that they dress to make themselves feel good. They dress FOR THEMSELVES, not to make strangers think they look sexier.

Or they'll tell you they dress to impress their girlfriends or partner.

Relatively few women dress specifically to make strangers think they look sexier.

And again, recognizing that certain articles of clothing could be seen as sexy doesn't mean that they're wearing them specifically to be sexy.

The intention may be to impress certain people or to make us feel in a certain way. However we don't try to impress our friends with how functional our outfits are. We don't want our friends to be envious of how comfortable out clothes are. We want them to think we look good and I don't think you can separate that from looking attractive ie demonstrating our sexual capital. It is implicit in the terms of how we undertake that judgement of what we wear. It may not be the intention but that is actually what it is. This whole thread started off with one guy's mismatch between the intention and meaning of his actions. You could apply the same logic to your final sentence:

"And again, recognizing that certain articles of clothing could be seen as sexy doesn't mean that they're wearing them specifically to be sexy."

And again, recognizing that certain items of speech could be seen as sexist doesn't mean that they're saying them specifically to be sexist."

I'm not being a deliberate contrarian but to debate gender neutrality and equality without considering sexuality on an individual and cultural level leads to doublethink and will intrinsically split the argument.

 

[satindesire]

The intention may be to impress certain people or to make us feel in a certain way. However we don't try to impress our friends with how functional our outfits are. We don't want our friends to be envious of how comfortable out clothes are. We want them to think we look good and I don't think you can separate that from looking attractive ie demonstrating our sexual capital. It is implicit in the terms of how we undertake that judgement of what we wear. It may not be the intention but that is actually what it is. This whole thread started off with one guy's mismatch between the intention and meaning of his actions. You could apply the same logic to your final sentence:

"And again, recognizing that certain articles of clothing could be seen as sexy doesn't mean that they're wearing them specifically to be sexy."

And again, recognizing that certain items of speech could be seen as sexist doesn't mean that they're saying them specifically to be sexist."

I'm not being a deliberate contrarian but to debate gender neutrality and equality without considering sexuality on an individual and cultural level leads to doublethink and will intrinsically split the argument.

When a man hears that women don't like being approached because of the misogyny she's experienced, and MORE THAN ONE woman shares similar views and experiences, and that some men deliberately ignored their pleas to just leave women alone, how can you not say that's sexism?

You're playing devil's advocate on the side of the status quo.

You're saying that women need to just ACCEPT that certain men are disrespectful and will say things to them if they wear certain things.

"Just accept it" means "Don't complain about it and don't try and stop it."

Don't you think men should be BETTER than this?

Do you think you're doing a good service saying these things?

Do you think our culture of misogyny and sexism NEEDS your help?

Do you think that ignoring and dismissing everything women have said here is a great idea just for the sake of debate?

You're on the side of sexism and you don't see anything wrong with that?

Don't you think you should tell men to stop harassing women instead of telling women to "Just accept it?"

Okay. Here you go.

The men in the video thought they were paying her a compliment. She didn't take it as such, and tried to explain why she was uncomfortable. Instead of "hey, sorry, didn't mean to make you uncomfortable", notice how they're telling her why they're right and she's wrong?

Honestly, I don't have a good answer for you. Ideally, I'd like to confront them like the woman in the video linked above. Why don't I? Mostly, I'm afraid to. If I'm lucky, all that happens is that my opinion gets ignored. Worst case scenario - it gets physical. It's a chance I'm not willing to take.

Educating the men in my life? Tried - with varying levels of success:

"Eh - you're too sensitive".
"It's just boys being boys."
"It has nothing to do with sexism. It's more about people being assholes."

It's frustrating, because most of them are truly good people. The one who has been most receptive is my son. I had him watch the #yesallwomen twitter feed with me. We've read multiple articles, watched videos on the subject. We discuss the problems of terms like "friend zone." I've explained that while it's not his fault our society is the way it is, it IS his responsibility to do what he can to change it. I've asked him to think before he speaks. I've asked him to call out his friends for sexist behavior. They're lessons that I hope stick. He's at the age where the opinions of his friends are becoming more important.

This sentiment is echoed by so many women, but every time we try and speak up for ourselves, our questions and concerns are dismissed as hysterical man-hating extremism.

How is that a good thing?

 

[satindesire]

I will say, this is by far the most coherent I've ever seen you make an argument.

A condescending backhanded "compliment" is just as bad as an outright insult. This is your last warning. If you can't debate the topic, and instead attack me personally, I will put you back on ignore.

I have gone out of my way to be polite to you personally while still telling you how I believe your opinions are harmful and sexist.

If you can't manage the same thing, why bother talking to me in the first place?

 

[Paul_Chance]

Bastardly Bat?

Assault and Battery Bat?

Or, he could be a good guy. Benevolent Bat.


I'm really seeing this cartoon being a staple in the schools.

Aaiieeeeee! I'm blind! I'm blind! I will never be able to unsee that...never. LOL

 

[shiny5437]

Satindesire, I agree with everything you've said apart from the bits where you've completely misinterpreted what I've written.

 

[Lord Pmann]

I don't have time to type a lot, but I'll pose this scenario as a discussion point. Let's say the following happened to a young pmann:

'Twas a cold dark night when pmann was 17. He was headed to his car, after some volunteer work with inner city children. And cooking pies for widows. And saving the whales.

A black panhandler walks up, drunk and smelly, and says, "Bro, can I get some money for some food?"

I tell him I have no cash, as I had just given it all to the orphans.

So, the young black man decides to rob pmann blind. He steals his wallet, his car and, of course, his sweet kicks.

Now, every time a black panhandler comes up to pmann, he says to "fuck off".

Is he empowered? Or just an arsehole?

Discuss.