How to compliment a woman

[Bramblethorn]

What did you just say?

Sorry if that wasn't clear; I was posting from my phone and it's a crappy interface that encourages terseness. I'll have another go at it:

In the situation of "guy makes unwelcome proposition to woman and gets told to fuck off", the guy has a lifetime of relative privilege on his side. There's an awful lot of cultural programming to the effect that a woman's duty is to be decorative for the benefit of the male population, and she ought to be grateful if he approves of her efforts. She could be Chancellor of Germany or a Fields Medal winner and guys will still be rating her appearance like that's what's really important. That programming has the potential to hurt her all through her life, professionally and personally.

In the situation of "white guy feels threatened by black guy and tells him to fuck off", privilege is in the opposite direction. It's not the white guy who's been living his life on the receiving end of racism. So it's a bad parallel; the two situations aren't comparable.

Fine, use that same parallel. You're still saying that the behaviour of telling a group of people to fuck off because of their skin colour is... Okay?

I don't believe I've commented either way on whether it's okay. What I said was that the scenario you offered wasn't comparable; the factors that make it not-comparable are an important part of the discussion here and several people have already discussed them at length.

If you're unwilling or unable to listen to that - if you can read those posts and still believe that a woman telling a man to "fuck off" is as bad as misogyny - then I'm not interested in playing along with something that's starting to feel like an exercise in derailment.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Reverse racism okay. Racism not. Got it.

ETA: tongue in cheek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_mRaIHb-M

 

[Lord Pmann]

I don't believe I've commented either way on whether it's okay. What I said was that the scenario you offered wasn't comparable; the factors that make it not-comparable are an important part of the discussion here and several people have already discussed them at length.

If you're unwilling or unable to listen to that - if you can read those posts and still believe that a woman telling a man to "fuck off" is as bad as misogyny - then I'm not interested in playing along with something that's starting to feel like an exercise in derailment.

I did listen to that. In fact, I recognized that it wasn't the same and I actually offered an even closer scenario than the one you offered. I don't know how that can be misconstrued as me not being unwilling or not listening to that.

I'll re-pose the new scenario, in case you didn't see it:

A white woman is assaulted by a black man as in the pmann scenario. Now, whenever black men approach her with panhandling, she tells them to fuck off because a black man was the one that assaulted her. Is it okay for her to have a negative reaction every time a black man engages this white woman?

And for the record, I'm actually not all white. I am mixed. Half Asian, half white, half black and 2/15 Native American. But I figured I'm probably assumed white by most.

Again, the question still remains unanswered. For some reason, no one wants to give an actual answer to what is now, a strikingly similar parallel. More so than with my pmann scenario.

 

[Doog_kuron]

This thread was derailed long before now.

Yup, I would say it has.

 

[NightL]

One instance can be overcome, time, counselling, maybe even forgiveness. Repetitive instances, even ones that are deemed less impacting than assault and robbery, will leave a lasting negative effect, particularly if they may be occurring daily, weekly - I think even once a month outstrips a one off occasion.

While assault, robbery and loss of dignity will no doubt be traumatic how would one compare this to sexual assault and beyond, because from what I have read here many may fear sexual assault and beyond when weighing up perceived threats that may follow on from an unwanted unwelcome sexual advance.

While assault and robbery happen way too frequently, unwanted unwelcome sexual advances or even leery suggestive remarks (if easier to digest) happen vastly greater in frequency and to considerably more people.

Maybe the woman in your scenario just feels instinctively to say "fuck off" to men in general, ones of a certain build, age or demeanour? Maybe your suggested woman now has psychological issues. Maybe the women who are being harassed regularly and say "fuck off" are just fucking annoyed and maybe disgusted at 'yet again'.

It is a scenario

What isn't just a scenario is that there are unwelcome sexual advances that lead to sexual assaults. So extremely sadly, occasionally there is murder. That is not over dramatising. If a woman feels inclined to say "fuck off" to a leery suggestive remark, I can respect that.

 

[NightL]

If a woman feels inclined to say "fuck off" to a leery suggestive remark, I can respect that.

Maybe that assertiveness is enough for a perceived attacker to back off.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Maybe that assertiveness is enough for a perceived attacker to back off.

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/incidences.html

BE ALL THAT YOU CAN BE...AND MORE.

 

[NightL]

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/incidences.html

BE ALL THAT YOU CAN BE...AND MORE.

Thank you James

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Fine, use that same parallel. You're still saying that the behaviour of telling a group of people to fuck off because of their skin colour is... Okay?

I'll even change it to make it more applicable.... Change pmann to a white woman. Now a white woman was robbed by a black man. Is it okay for her to be afraid of just black men? No white man ever harmed her. Only a black man. So, if a white man solicits her, no worries. If a black man, he gets the FO. Let's use that scenario, as it's even closer to what we discuss.

I believe it is OK. There are times when the house must cease to be divided, and it should suck to be on the other team as the union comes about.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Maybe that assertiveness is enough for a perceived attacker to back off.

That's true. Make the other guy think youre a huge problem for him if he isn't sweet.

 

[Lord Pmann]

One instance can be overcome, time, counselling, maybe even forgiveness. Repetitive instances, even ones that are deemed less impacting than assault and robbery, will leave a lasting negative effect, particularly if they may be occurring daily, weekly - I think even once a month outstrips a one off occasion.

While assault, robbery and loss of dignity will no doubt be traumatic how would one compare this to sexual assault and beyond, because from what I have read here many may fear sexual assault and beyond when weighing up perceived threats that may follow on from an unwanted unwelcome sexual advance.

While assault and robbery happen way too frequently, unwanted unwelcome sexual advances or even leery suggestive remarks (if easier to digest) happen vastly greater in frequency and to considerably more people.

Maybe the woman in your scenario just feels instinctively to say "fuck off" to men in general, ones of a certain build, age or demeanour? Maybe your suggested woman now has psychological issues. Maybe the women who are being harassed regularly and say "fuck off" are just fucking annoyed and maybe disgusted at 'yet again'.

It is a scenario

What isn't just a scenario is that there are unwelcome sexual advances that lead to sexual assaults. So extremely sadly, occasionally there is murder. That is not over dramatising. If a woman feels inclined to say "fuck off" to a leery suggestive remark, I can respect that.

So from what I gather, the fear of something happening is greater than the ACTUAL occurrence of an event, such as the robbery of a woman?

And the scenario is an actual scenario that happened to a friend of my family's. Not with a woman, but with a white male. He and his mother were robbed at gunpoint by a black male and his mother was shot and killed for like $20. He was forever fearful and resentful of black men.

Had I proposed this theory outside of this thread, I guaranfuckingtee you that everyone would be screaming about "how dare he hold an entire race of people accountable for what one thug did to his mother". And I believe SD would have been the loudest voice of that bunch saying he is a racist bastard. He was prejudiced. He wasn't before the incident. But that incident changed him. I can't begin to imagine what the event was like.

I'll even change the scenario, yet again. What if a white woman is shaped in such a way that she mainly gets compliments from black men? They make her feel uncomfortable, because they are normally compliments about her arse. So, every time a white guy offers a compliment, she's fine because the compliments don't creep her out. But, based on her experiences with black men, she gives them a fuck off every time.

What I am doing is posing the exact same scenario, replacing gender with race. And still, people dance around the issue. It's no different. No one feels comfortable saying that it's okay to react to a certain race of people one way. This is the exact same scenario. And I don't feel that anyone is okay even talking about it, because it makes the earlier arguments look really bad.

Is anyone willing to say that it's okay for the white woman to tell the black men to fuck off? Is that empowering her? Is that a good thing? Her reaction is based on her experiences from the past and threats of rape/assault. Why would this be any different?

Just as I do not believe my friend should have those feelings about all black men, I don't feel anyone should have those feelings about an entire gender. Specifically, the one to which I belong. I'm not misogynistic for my beliefs. I would venture to say I probably spend more of my time volunteering to help women who have actually been victims of a use and assault, far more than most. I am not saying that so I can get a Noble Peace Prize. I'm saying it to say, the idea that I'm sexist is laughable. It's easy for people to sit and type from a fucking computer screen about the world's injustices, but it's hard to get off our fat arses and do something about it. I actually go out and do shit about it.

 

[MeekMe]

I did listen to that. In fact, I recognized that it wasn't the same and I actually offered an even closer scenario than the one you offered. I don't know how that can be misconstrued as me not being unwilling or not listening to that.

I'll re-pose the new scenario, in case you didn't see it:

A white woman is assaulted by a black man as in the pmann scenario. Now, whenever black men approach her with panhandling, she tells them to fuck off because a black man was the one that assaulted her. Is it okay for her to have a negative reaction every time a black man engages this white woman?

And for the record, I'm actually not all white. I am mixed. Half Asian, half white, half black and 2/15 Native American. But I figured I'm probably assumed white by most.

Again, the question still remains unanswered. For some reason, no one wants to give an actual answer to what is now, a strikingly similar parallel. More so than with my pmann scenario.

It's not that I didn't want to answer or that I couldn't. I had to step away for awhile, and also sleep.

So, we've changed the scenario to a woman who is possibly racist.

It's perfectly ok for her to have a negative reaction every time a black man engages her. It's a unique experience and reaction to her. Is the woman racist? Maybe. But as long as she's not going around bashing every black panhandler on the street with a baseball bat, she's with in her right to that reaction. Will people think less of her for possibly being racist? Yes.

What we have now though, is the questions of "why." We demonize people when we suspect they are racist. The weird thing is, we've learned that there are a lot of reasons a person may actually be racist. Their upbringing, education, fear, power and/or resentment are just a few.

So, now your scenarios (even young, racist pmann) have given me a chance to step into a racist's shoes. Something I've never done. In fact, I was on the side of "well that person is just a racist asshole." And I was happy to leave it at that and never, ever ask WHY.

So, what do we do about it? Get the word out that it's wrong? Try to understand the reasons behind why someone might be racist? Or in the original case, why someone might be terrified of being assaulted again and the reaction they have that may not be rational but they do it anyway? Try to educate all sides?
Do we just chaulk it up to asshattery and call them names?

Just for the record, when a person gets loud and tries to retort, they generally are like a cat puffing up its fur. Hopefully it lets a possible threat know they aren't just going to lay down and take it and the threat goes away without incident. When a woman says "fuck off" it can be empowering if it works. She now knows that when someone advances on her that she may have the power to make it stop. Does it always work out?

 

[Dianthus]

God grant me the serenity to accept the compliments that are sincere; the courage to repudiate those that inauthentic or mask an agenda; and wisdom to know the difference.

 

[Lord Pmann]

@MeekMe
I think that is an excellent answer and you're the first person to actually take a stance on it.

Cheers for that.

 

[NightL]

I believe the situations can not be compared - my view as expressed in my previous post and purely the basis for it.

I am confused, where did "I don't feel anyone should have those feelings about an entire gender" come from?

I have not used the words misogynistic or sexist in this thread, so I gather that was to a wider audience?

I don't think you should judge on what you don't know about people and their lives beyond here. I don't think it wise to compare and for yourself lay judgement on people based on a comparison impossible to make.

From what I have read here over the years there are many among us who are in a positions of guidance, leadership, caring roles, health professionals for both physical and psychological fields, teachers and lecturers. They are in contact with a lot of people who they do indeed care about. The moment you assume to place yourself over and above the people around you it lessens what you can offer in your volunteer work.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I believe the situations can not be compared - my view as expressed in my previous post and purely the basis for it.

I am confused, where did "I don't feel anyone should have those feelings about an entire gender" come from?

I have not used the words misogynistic or sexist in this thread, so I gather that was to a wider audience?

I don't think you should judge on what you don't know about people and their lives beyond here. I don't think it wise to compare and for yourself lay judgement on people based on a comparison impossible to make.

From what I have read here over the years there are many among us who are in a positions of guidance, leadership, caring roles, health professionals for both physical and psychological fields, teachers and lecturers. They are in contact with a lot of people who they do indeed care about. The moment you assume to place yourself over and above the people around you it lessens what you can offer in your volunteer work.

The greatest delusion in all the human services professions is the idea that pros need to care. Nonsense. All you need do is what is right by them.

 

[GiggLeGasm]

I agree that part of the solution is to ask why.. and follow with how.

I do not agree that we should not judge. Judgement is different than prejudice. In fact, every scenario that has been presented demonstrates a woman being judgmental in her environment. It is an efficient skill used in many of the "caring" professions that have just been mentioned.

Judgement allows us to evaluate a situation and select a response. It also allows us to think objectively, something that does not happen in the eye of prejudice. Regarding caring professionally, I think it depends on the level of presence one is willing to risk. Sometimes you care about.. sometimes you care for. There is no right or wrong attached to those. Caring is actually a mutual relationship and not everyone wants to be the recipient of the same caring. It is a risky venture for some that requires a level of trust that is not always available. In that way, it can be compared to this discussion. What we've uncovered, in my opinion, is that flirtations can be a risky venture. They will not always be motivated by the same source, delivered with the same intention, or perceived in the same way.

I especially appreciate the responses by MeekMe and by Bailadora because they acknowledge without blaming anyone that a problem exists and then ask what can be done to help the future.

 

[Lord Pmann]

Before I say anything, I'd like to distinguish between the word racist and prejudiced, as I use it. I've met VERY few people who are racist. Racism is primarily when someone thinks that their race is genetically superior to others. Prejudice is when people have preconceived notions about race or gender or whatever. I don't know a single person who isn't prejudiced on some level.

What we have now though, is the questions of "why." We demonize people when we suspect they are racist. The weird thing is, we've learned that there are a lot of reasons a person may actually be racist. Their upbringing, education, fear, power and/or resentment are just a few.

And this is the whole point that I'm trying to get people to see. And, honestly, it's the main reason why SD and I clash so much.

SD- you said I was so difficult to get through and that I'll never learn anything from you. You're probably right. I will undoubtedly not learn anything from you, even though I enjoy the discussion. I'll explain why. I'm not saying this for any reason but to show you why your arguments fall flat to me. This isn't about you personally, your looks or your anything but your beliefs and how you represent them.

When I hear you take offense to something, it's like a resounding gong. Because, you take offense to nearly everything. I've seen you get defensive and go on the offense over the stupidest shit. You get defensive on behalf of races and groups of which you are not a part. I remember one time you got defensive over a post regarding Asian culture. While I am not half black, half white and half Asian, I am half white and half Asian. And to me, someone being offended on behalf of me is far more offensive than what was actually said. And for reference, what was actually said was "Asian movies". You considered that offensive. Being part Asian and friends with Asians, I can't imagine a single person who would deem it offensive. Not on any planet or universe.

You say things like cisfemale. That's such a weird thing to say. You were born with a vagina and boobs and ovaries so you identify as a female. That's not anything that needs a label. It's a fact. It is called being a girl. If you are born with a vagina, you are a female. I realize there are those born with both bits and I understand that is a bit different, so I'm not including that.

It's just that you go so overboard to be politically correct, it looks so foolish in its execution.

Take someone like Bailadora, for instance. She and I may have differing views on things at times. But, her posts are normally logical and her arguments are completely on point and they have experiences that seem plausible. She doesn't argue things that were never stated, nor does she have a chip on her shoulder. Same goes with MeekMe.

What would help would be a lot less pity and dismissal
and a lot more empathy, and to set aside your feelings of being
attacked and LISTEN and ACCEPT what we say at face value
with no judgement.

I think that this is an absolutely insane thing to expect. Listen, okay. Just accept what you say? I fundamentally disagree with you and your way of thinking. In nearly every way, I disagree with you. It's just different outlooks on life. One is through your lens, which I could never see if I tried in a thousand lifetimes. It comes off as you're always a victim. Whether or not that is how it is intended, that's how it is perceived. Not only by me, but by numerous people around here.

I simply find your efforts at equality to be so counterproductive. You carry your torch so high and shove it in the faces of people who disagree or just think it's bullshit.

I liken it to someone like Joe Biden. He's the champion for the working man. The middle class. He's looking out for the poor people. His whole platform is about helping them. Yet, you look at a guy like that and see what he donates to charity every year and it's a couple thousand dollars. So really, he doesn't do anything to ACTUALLY help the cause but scream and make noise and point out how the other side is wrong and evil. That's how I perceive your efforts.

I'm not saying you don't do shit in your spare time to help people. I haven't a clue. Maybe you are the Mother Theresa of feminism. But the way you talk and react makes me wonder if you've actually ever had any contact with women who have been in actual dangerous situations and abusive environments because the way you speak and react makes me think you haven't a clue about it. Or, if you are someone like my Biden example that just does their good deeds from an ivory tower.

 

[Lord Pmann]

I believe the situations can not be compared - my view as expressed in my previous post and purely the basis for it.

I am confused, where did "I don't feel anyone should have those feelings about an entire gender" come from?

I have not used the words misogynistic or sexist in this thread, so I gather that was to a wider audience?

I don't think you should judge on what you don't know about people and their lives beyond here. I don't think it wise to compare and for yourself lay judgement on people based on a comparison impossible to make.

From what I have read here over the years there are many among us who are in a positions of guidance, leadership, caring roles, health professionals for both physical and psychological fields, teachers and lecturers. They are in contact with a lot of people who they do indeed care about. The moment you assume to place yourself over and above the people around you it lessens what you can offer in your volunteer work.

Not wanting to make the comparison versus not making the comparison are different things. I even modified it for those reasons, to include a white woman and a black man who received unhealthy "compliments".

And my response was on the general nature of this thread, not just at you.

 

[satindesire]

Sorry if that wasn't clear; I was posting from my phone and it's a crappy interface that encourages terseness. I'll have another go at it:

In the situation of "guy makes unwelcome proposition to woman and gets told to fuck off", the guy has a lifetime of relative privilege on his side. There's an awful lot of cultural programming to the effect that a woman's duty is to be decorative for the benefit of the male population, and she ought to be grateful if he approves of her efforts. She could be Chancellor of Germany or a Fields Medal winner and guys will still be rating her appearance like that's what's really important. That programming has the potential to hurt her all through her life, professionally and personally.

In the situation of "white guy feels threatened by black guy and tells him to fuck off", privilege is in the opposite direction. It's not the white guy who's been living his life on the receiving end of racism. So it's a bad parallel; the two situations aren't comparable.



I don't believe I've commented either way on whether it's okay. What I said was that the scenario you offered wasn't comparable; the factors that make it not-comparable are an important part of the discussion here and several people have already discussed them at length.

If you're unwilling or unable to listen to that - if you can read those posts and still believe that a woman telling a man to "fuck off" is as bad as misogyny - then I'm not interested in playing along with something that's starting to feel like an exercise in derailment.

There. This. All of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_mRaIHb-M

This too.

 

[satindesire]

And this is the whole point that I'm trying to get people to see. And, honestly, it's the main reason why SD and I clash so much.

SD- you said I was so difficult to get through and that I'll never learn anything from you. You're probably right. I will undoubtedly not learn anything from you, even though I enjoy the discussion. I'll explain why. I'm not saying this for any reason but to show you why your arguments fall flat to me. This isn't about you personally, your looks or your anything but your beliefs and how you represent them.

When I hear you take offense to something, it's like a resounding gong. Because, you take offense to nearly everything. I've seen you get defensive and go on the offense over the stupidest shit. You get defensive on behalf of races and groups of which you are not a part. I remember one time you got defensive over a post regarding Asian culture. While I am not half black, half white and half Asian, I am half white and half Asian. And to me, someone being offended on behalf of me is far more offensive than what was actually said. And for reference, what was actually said was "Asian movies". You considered that offensive. Being part Asian and friends with Asians, I can't imagine a single person who would deem it offensive. Not on any planet or universe.

You say things like cisfemale. That's such a weird thing to say. You were born with a vagina and boobs and ovaries so you identify as a female. That's not anything that needs a label. It's a fact. It is called being a girl. If you are born with a vagina, you are a female. I realize there are those born with both bits and I understand that is a bit different, so I'm not including that.

It's just that you go so overboard to be politically correct, it looks so foolish in its execution.

Take someone like Bailadora, for instance. She and I may have differing views on things at times. But, her posts are normally logical and her arguments are completely on point and they have experiences that seem plausible. She doesn't argue things that were never stated, nor does she have a chip on her shoulder. Same goes with MeekMe.



I think that this is an absolutely insane thing to expect. Listen, okay. Just accept what you say? I fundamentally disagree with you and your way of thinking. In nearly every way, I disagree with you. It's just different outlooks on life. One is through your lens, which I could never see if I tried in a thousand lifetimes. It comes off as you're always a victim. Whether or not that is how it is intended, that's how it is perceived. Not only by me, but by numerous people around here.

I simply find your efforts at equality to be so counterproductive. You carry your torch so high and shove it in the faces of people who disagree or just think it's bullshit.

I liken it to someone like Joe Biden. He's the champion for the working man. The middle class. He's looking out for the poor people. His whole platform is about helping them. Yet, you look at a guy like that and see what he donates to charity every year and it's a couple thousand dollars. So really, he doesn't do anything to ACTUALLY help the cause but scream and make noise and point out how the other side is wrong and evil. That's how I perceive your efforts.

I'm not saying you don't do shit in your spare time to help people. I haven't a clue. Maybe you are the Mother Theresa of feminism. But the way you talk and react makes me wonder if you've actually ever had any contact with women who have been in actual dangerous situations and abusive environments because the way you speak and react makes me think you haven't a clue about it. Or, if you are someone like my Biden example that just does their good deeds from an ivory tower.

I see the "I won't insult you." thing didn't last long. Not that I actually expected you to be able to stay respectful very long anyway.

So since the conversation has devolved into talking about why we hate each other SO FUCKING MUCH.

The fact that you dislike me personally and the fact that you take the TONE ARGUMENT out on me means we are fundamentally incapable of ever having decent communication about anything. I also think it's really ridiculous for you to hold "Other people on this board don't like you either so HA HA." over my head as well. Do you think I should care about what strangers feel about me when I'm doing good work? Do you honestly think that EVERYONE on this board likes you and agrees with you about EVERYTHING and that no one has sent me private messages about YOU? Would it be fair or nice of me to remind you how "oh yeah well other people on this board agree with me that you're XYZ and XYZ so what do you think about that!" every single time you and I talked? Because you have done this every time we've had a discussion. Like a weapon, you try and wield this artifact of "Other people don't like you!" like some kind of crude self-esteem bludgeon because why? You dislike my confidence and find me arrogant? You think I'm TOO LOUD and AGGRESSIVE?!

I honestly don't care anymore. You aren't ever going to learn about bigotry or social justice no matter how NICE and SWEET anyone explains anything to you because You. Don't. Want. To.

Cisfemale is a WEIRD thing to say?!

Not that you'll actually look at it but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

It's not "weird", it's how people can describe themselves.

You conveniently use the tone excuse and say, "If you weren't so hostile and angry, I'd listen to you." But we both know that's bullshit. Classic derailment. I could get a bingo on the Bingo Card of Derailment Bingo with the things you've pulled here.

Social Justice is so much more important than your petty ego issues with HOW MEAN I AM TO YOU. Not that you'll read THIS either but:

http://gjs.appstate.edu/social-justice-and-human-rights/what-social-justice

Why the Tone Argument is Bullshit:

http://groupthink.jezebel.com/on-tone-policing-why-its-bullshit-and-why-you-need-to-1148310719

Since you won't click on that either: "It’s cruel and ridiculous to expect a person to be calm and polite in response to an act of oppression. Marginalized people often do not have the luxury of emotionally distancing themselves from discussions on their rights and experiences.

Tone policing is the ultimate derailing tactic. When you tone police, you automatically shift the focus of the conversation away from what you or someone else did that was wrong, and onto the other person and their reaction. Tone policing is a way of not taking responsibility for fucking up, and it dismisses the other person’s position by framing it as being emotional and therefore irrational.

But being emotional does not make one’s points any less valid. It’s also important to note that, by tone policing, you not only refuse to examine your own oppressive behavior, but you also can blame that on the other person, because they were not “nice enough” to be listened to or taken seriously.

Tone policing assumes that the oppressive act is not an act of aggression, when it very much is. The person who was oppressed by the action, suddenly is no longer a victim, but is “victimizing” the other person by calling them out. [...] But anger is valid. Anger is valid, anger is important, anger brings social change, anger makes people listen, anger is threatening, and anger is passion. Anger is NOT counterproductive; being “nice” is counterproductive. Nobody was ever given rights by politely asking for them. Politeness is nothing but a set of behavioral expectations that is enforced upon marginalized people."

You weren't going to learn anything from me because you decided back on that first thread we got into a fight about that you were going to try and fight with me, insult me and put me down every single chance you got. I'll never be able to do ANYTHING good or right in your eyes, and so what's the point of me even trying to mend things and communicate with you about something I am GENUINELY passionate about. What's the point?

No, you DON'T know how much I actually do. But did you ever ask? No, because to your tainted vision of me, nothing good I do is genuine. Everything I do, in your eyes, is nothing but a product of the arrogance and meanness that you think I'm nothing BUT. And you know what? I shouldn't have to prove anything to you anyway. Note that I didn't call you a name or accuse you of anything but sexist arguments and tone policing, while you've run the gamut of arrogance, derailment, tone policing, OUTRIGHT INSULTS, condescension, beating me over the head with accusations that OTHER PEOPLE DON'T LIKE ME, and dismissal.

So who's the mean, arrogant person now? You did everything that you accuse me of AND MORE, but I'm the bad guy?

Let's just put each other on ignore and never speak to each other again. Kay? You weren't actually ever interested in changing your mind to begin with, so talking to you is pointless.

 

[Lord Pmann]

The fact that you dislike me personally and the fact that you take the TONE ARGUMENT out on me means we are fundamentally incapable of ever having decent communication about anything.

I honestly don't care anymore. You aren't ever going to learn about bigotry or social justice no matter how NICE and SWEET anyone explains anything to you because You. Don't. Want. To.

Cisfemale is a WEIRD thing to say?!

Not that you'll actually look at it but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

It's not "weird", it's how people can describe themselves.

You conveniently use the tone excuse and say, "If you weren't so hostile and angry, I'd listen to you." But we both know that's bullshit. Classic derailment. I could get a bingo on the Bingo Card of Derailment Bingo with the things you've pulled here.

Let's just put each other on ignore and never speak to each other again. Kay? You weren't actually ever interested in changing your mind to begin with, so talking to you is pointless.

Tone argument? I dislike lots of people with whom I can speak and from whom I can learn. I don't like you, for every reason I listed and some more, personal ones.

You still neglect to see any points I make. You come forward on the presumptions that I want to learn nothing about bigotry. That's not the case. I simply find the way YOU talk about it to be ineffective.

Is the basis of something not being weird the fact that there is a Wikipedia link? I actually read that before you posted it, because I had to look it up. I didn't know what you were on about.

It's not your tone that makes me think you're arguments are invalid. It's your content and how you constantly try to play PC police that makes it ineffective. I have you a specific example of how you tried to defend a face of people to which I belong. I told you how ridiculous it looked. That's why I, along with so many others. think you're so misguided.

It's not about your tone. It's about your stance. If you weren't so hostile and angry, people might like you more. But that irrelevant. Your assumption is as follows:

I don't adopt your position. Therefore, I didn't listen.

Consider this:

I listened to your position. Based on everything you say, collectively, I don't adopt your position.

I've listened to many differing viewpoints. I've listened to Night's, bramble, meek, Bailadora, etc. I don't agree with all of them. But their arguments, based on what they've said here and in the past, are far more effective.

 

[satindesire]

Tone argument? I dislike lots of people with whom I can speak and from whom I can learn. I don't like you, for every reason I listed and some more, personal ones.

You still neglect to see any points I make. You come forward on the presumptions that I want to learn nothing about bigotry. That's not the case. I simply find the way YOU talk about it to be ineffective.

Is the basis of something not being weird the fact that there is a Wikipedia link? I actually read that before you posted it, because I had to look it up. I didn't know what you were on about.

It's not your tone that makes me think you're arguments are invalid. It's your content and how you constantly try to play PC police that makes it ineffective. I have you a specific example of how you tried to defend a face of people to which I belong. I told you how ridiculous it looked. That's why I, along with so many others. think you're so misguided.

It's not about your tone. It's about your stance. If you weren't so hostile and angry, people might like you more. But that irrelevant. Your assumption is as follows:

I don't adopt your position. Therefore, I didn't listen.

Consider this:

I listened to your position. Based on everything you say, collectively, I don't adopt your position.

I've listened to many differing viewpoints. I've listened to Night's, bramble, meek, Bailadora, etc. I don't agree with all of them. But their arguments, based on what they've said here and in the past, are far more effective.

I wasn't done with my post. Please see above. This is my last message to you.

 

[Lord Pmann]

Your assumption that I don't read what you write or post is wrong. I do read them.

Again, your assumption that I dismiss your opinion because you scream it like a mad person is also wrong. I dismiss it because I read it, measure it up against everything that you've ever said and I find it silly. Not just in relation to this topic.

I tried to point out that the behaviour that you describe would be absolutely scorned if it was categorized by race or sexual preference. And you would have been the loudest voice.

 

[Lord Pmann]

I especially appreciate the responses by MeekMe and by Bailadora because they acknowledge without blaming anyone that a problem exists and then ask what can be done to help the future.

This.