How to compliment a woman

[satindesire]

Satindesire, I agree with everything you've said apart from the bits where you've completely misinterpreted what I've written.

If I misunderstood, I sincerely apologize. Please clarify what you mean so I can better understand you.

I don't have time to type a lot, but I'll pose this scenario as a discussion point. Let's say the following happened to a young pmann:

'Twas a cold dark night when pmann was 17. He was headed to his car, after some volunteer work with inner city children. And cooking pies for widows. And saving the whales.

A black panhandler walks up, drunk and smelly, and says, "Bro, can I get some money for some food?"

I tell him I have no cash, as I had just given it all to the orphans.

So, the young black man decides to rob pmann blind. He steals his wallet, his car and, of course, his sweet kicks.

Now, every time a black panhandler comes up to pmann, he says to "fuck off".

Is he empowered? Or just an arsehole?

Discuss.

If it happened only ONCE, then I would say he might be a little overly cautious.

However, if he experienced this mugging 20-30 times over 4-5 years, I would say he had a damn good reason to say fuck off.

Unfortunately, harassment doesn't happen to most women only once.

Sexism is everywhere and happens to many women, sometimes almost every day.

Once a person experiences certain things a LOT, their hostility is understandable.

 

[Lord Pmann]

A condescending backhanded "compliment" is just as bad as an outright insult. This is your last warning. If you can't debate the topic, and instead attack me personally, I will put you back on ignore.

I have gone out of my way to be polite to you personally while still telling you how I believe your opinions are harmful and sexist.

If you can't manage the same thing, why bother talking to me in the first place?

It wasn't a compliment, backhanded or otherwise. It was a statement of my perception. Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it an insult. By your reasoning, I should put you on ignore because you think I'm sexist.

I'm talking with you because I enjoy the debate. I said I would stop the personal attacks and I have. There will be no more personal attacks of any kind. I'll even try to avoid the ones that sort of seem that way.

 

[satindesire]

It wasn't a compliment, backhanded or otherwise. It was a statement of my perception. Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it an insult. By your reasoning, I should put you on ignore because you think I'm sexist.

I'm talking with you because I enjoy the debate. I said I would stop the personal attacks and I have. There will be no more personal attacks of any kind. I'll even try to avoid the ones that sort of seem that way.

I actually didn't disagree with you at all. I was proud of myself for speaking so eloquently. You think I'm arrogant so I'm assuming that you'll find me being proud of myself distasteful, so whatever.

However, pretending to be kind to someone while actually not being kind is absolutely condescending.

If you put me on ignore, that's perfectly fine. It won't change anything but who I talk to in this post. And that'll mean you'll learn nothing from me.

 

[MeekMe]

I don't have time to type a lot, but I'll pose this scenario as a discussion point. Let's say the following happened to a young pmann:

'Twas a cold dark night when pmann was 17. He was headed to his car, after some volunteer work with inner city children. And cooking pies for widows. And saving the whales.

A black panhandler walks up, drunk and smelly, and says, "Bro, can I get some money for some food?"

I tell him I have no cash, as I had just given it all to the orphans.

So, the young black man decides to rob pmann blind. He steals his wallet, his car and, of course, his sweet kicks.

Now, every time a black panhandler comes up to pmann, he says to "fuck off".

Is he empowered? Or just an arsehole?

Discuss.

He's not empowered or an asshole. He's suffering from a past experience.

How do you think he'd feel when people start telling him, "what are you so paranoid of? It was ONE man. Not everyone does that!"

But pmann now has PTSD and just wants to be left alone. And every time someone tells him he's just being mean he's dying inside a little. He now questions if he should be nice despite that fact that he fears the same thing happening again. Of course, now he travels in packs and has someone call him to make sure he made it home safe without having been robbed. He looks over his shoulder to make sure panhandlers aren't following him. When he gets in his car he immediately locks the door. When he's home the deadbolt is always locked. He drives a less fancy car and his sweet kicks are a little less sweet.

 

[satindesire]

He's not empowered or an asshole. He's suffering from a past experience.

How do you think he'd feel when people start telling him, "what are you so paranoid of? It was ONE man. Not everyone does that!"

But pmann now has PTSD and just wants to be left alone. And every time someone tells him he's just being mean he's dying inside a little. He now questions if he should be nice despite that fact that he fears the same thing happening again. Of course, now he travels in packs and has someone call him to make sure he made it home safe without having been robbed. He looks over his shoulder to make sure panhandlers aren't following him. When he gets in his car he immediately locks the door. When he's home the deadbolt is always locked. He drives a less fancy car and his sweet kicks are a little less sweet.

This is another thing that hasn't been touched on yet that should be...Thank you Meeks for bringing that up.

Oftentimes people get seriously traumatized by these experiences and even if it only happens once, it can still make an incredibly serious impression on someone to the point that it prevents normal human functions.

In this case, therapy is necessary.

 

[KrazyWhiteBoy]

It's not a leap, it's a symptom of the culture of sexism.

When you talk about a cold, and people name their symptoms, do you say, "Wait no, no no...you were talking about having a COLD, now you're talking about having a sore throat? That's quite a leap."

It's the same thing. Sexism is lived by every woman on the planet, some more than others. Everything from feeling entitled to gratitude for giving a woman a compliment, to rape and domestic abuse, from the wage gap and the very few women in the STEM field, is all a symptom of sexism.

You think that when we speak about the things that happen to us, that we're playing the victim or "sorry" about being a woman. That's NOT IT. We're talking about how other people are trying to treat us as if being a woman is worse than being a man. Talking truthfully about what happens to us is not playing a victim or feeling sorry for yourself, it's speaking truth to power. What would help would be a lot less pity and dismissal and a lot more empathy, and to set aside your feelings of being attacked and LISTEN and ACCEPT what we say at face value with no judgement.

Just like with anything. It takes time to learn how to not take these issues personally. But you need to learn how. You need to if you want to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

Let me relate to you MY experience with this. I didn't have anyone sit me aside and teach me that when people talk about the abuses of the Christian Church, they weren't attacking ME or saying -I- was a bad person for being a Christian. What would have helped me was someone telling me that no one blamed ME for the abuses of the Church, but I WOULD be implicit in that abuse if I didn't learn about it, and speak up to try and stop it.

You're a man. That means if you want to make a positive effort to end sexism, you need to be educated on the experiences of women. And when you ARE learning, BELIEVE what you're hearing instead of ignoring it or dismissing it. Don't act like you want gender equality or that you hate it when women are harassed and then do nothing to stop it.

I pass as white. So because of that, I have White Privilege. That means I need to listen to the lived experiences of minorities and do my part to make a difference to end racism. That means I need to set my ego aside and not take the things they say personally. It means I need to be part of the solution and BELIEVE them when they talk about the things they've seen. It's HARD not feeling attacked, it's HARD to not let our egos get in the way of progress, but that's the ONLY way we're going to make a difference in the world.

I am cisfemale. That means I have cisprivilege and need to listen to the lived experiences of transgender people and do my part to make a difference and end transphobia. Trans people aren't playing the victim when they talk about transphobia, they're openly speaking about the bigotry they experience TO STOP IT. You cannot stop a problem by ignoring it. And when you say things that imply or even outright accuse oppressed communities of "playing the victim", you are silencing them. Silence will solve nothing, it just makes people that aren't oppressed feel more comfortable. It keeps bigotry the status quo.

Bigotry is a social cancer. Talking about it is the cure. You can't cure a disease by ignoring it. If you wouldn't tell a person with cancer to stop playing the victim or feeling sorry for themselves, don't tell women or any other marginalized people to be quiet about their experiences. Anyone with any human empathy would listen to them, believe them, and help them. Please have empathy instead of continuing the behavior that got them there!




I mean no offense...but...Right now I feel like you're ignoring everything I said and trying to hammer home this point.

Here is my honest answer for your honest question. Recognizing that certain clothes are provocative is not the same thing as wearing them with the intent to provoke harassing responses. I'm going to tell you the same thing every time you ask that.

We know that certain clothes are considered provocative. We wear them anyway because it's more comfortable to stay cooler with those clothes. We wear them to be cool, not to be harassed.

What so many men think is that --we are being women AT men--. We are CONFRONTING men with our "attractiveness". We are going out of our way to be NOTICED. When 9 times out of 10 we are literally going about our day just trying to be good daughters/mothers/sisters, taking care of business and trying to be as comfortable as possible in order to.

Let's be real here, you're not psychic. No one is. So how can anyone KNOW when a woman's wearing provocative clothing "ON PURPOSE" to try and attract negative attention? How can you tell? You CANNOT tell. It is so much safer and more respectful for EVERYONE to assume that a woman wants to be left alone, no matter what she's wearing.



Which is what I've done the entire time. Refusing to let you move the goalposts and refusing to let you ignore what I've said isn't the same thing as "not debating the arguments you ACTUALLY make".

And one last thing, what Bramblethorn said? The "Right" to be a bitch is not "as bad" as misogyny. Women are systematically oppressed in every facet of our society. A woman telling a creep to "Fuck off" is not even close to that. Once our entire culture is telling YOU to "Fuck off", then you can compare the two as similar.

The correlations you make in this post really bring your point home to me. It's not about me, it's about how I make any woman feel. It doesn't matter if I do not completely understand WHY it makes a woman uncomfortable. What matters is that my words or actions make her feel uncomfortable.

Change happens one step at a time. One person decides not to sit in the back of the bus or drink from a different water fountain, and it eventually becomes the norm.

 

[Lord Pmann]

So pmann would be okay to react to an entire race of people negatively?

 

[GiggLeGasm]

if we use "demographic" instead of race, this already happens.

I sometimes appreciate this.

 

[KrazyWhiteBoy]

So pmann would be okay to react to an entire race of people negatively?

No it would not be ok to react negatively to an entire race of people because of one bad experience. But, it would explain why you may not react positively the next time a panhandler asked you for spare change. Why, inside you might relive that experience each time someone asks you for some money. Why, if you see a panhandler on the street corner you might cross the street to avoid them.

 

[Lord Pmann]

No it would not be ok to react negatively to an entire race of people because of one bad experience. But, it would explain why you may not react positively the next time a panhandler asked you for spare change. Why, inside you might relive that experience each time someone asks you for some money. Why, if you see a panhandler on the street corner you might cross the street to avoid them.

So why is it not empowering to tell him to fuck off?

It has been established that this may be an appropriate response from women to men because of bad experiences in the past. Is it okay from a white person to a black person?

 

[KrazyWhiteBoy]

pmann. Do you really not understand where these women are coming from, or are you just being contrary? I'm new to the forums, so please let me know if this is your modus operandi or do you really need more clarification on the subject?

All I need to know, from anyone, is that my actions make them uncomfortable. Male, female, black, white, gay, straight, whatever, if I make them uncomfortable by some action or word, it is unacceptable.

Because we live in a modern, enlightened society, not the dark ages, we need to listen to, and HEAR what everyone is saying. Not just what the strong, powerful, alpha, leader of the pack says.

It makes me angry that in 2014 not everyone can walk down the street and feel as safe as I do. Yes, I am a very large man, but to me it shouldn't matter. It upsets me that something I intended to make someone feel good, may have scared them instead.

 

[Lord Pmann]

pmann. Do you really not understand where these women are coming from, or are you just being contrary? I'm new to the forums, so please let me know if this is your modus operandi or do you really need more clarification on the subject?

Apparently you can't see the forest for the trees.

I disagree with much of what was said here, for various reasons. I agree with the common thread that women shouldn't be harassed. However, even that seems to be misunderstood.

But my point with the racial statement is that I have just provided you with an apples to apples comparison and you are too afraid to say "yes, it's acceptable to treat a black person like that" because it negates the other argument that everyone has been making.

If anyone actually cares to my entire point, it is this... It's not so black and white. We all have filters and all that. We all weigh things differently.

I don't think a single person will come out and say anything about the race example, because that is such a touchy subject. And like I said, if you admit that it's "wrong" to prejudge or react to someone based on race, then it must also be based on gender.

I understand where the women are coming from. I truly see what they are saying. And their experiences lead them to believe one way and that's okay. But an opinion that differs isn't necessarily misogyny. It may be a different opinion.

 

[satindesire]

The correlations you make in this post really bring your point home to me. It's not about me, it's about how I make any woman feel. It doesn't matter if I do not completely understand WHY it makes a woman uncomfortable. What matters is that my words or actions make her feel uncomfortable.

Change happens one step at a time. One person decides not to sit in the back of the bus or drink from a different water fountain, and it eventually becomes the norm.

Yes. This. 100% this!!

 

[satindesire]

So pmann would be okay to react to an entire race of people negatively?

Your argument is that it's sexist for women to be cautious or avoiding men because of the sexism and misogyny they've experienced?

Really though? I mean...Jeeze, I can't even begin to get through to you.

 

[Lord Pmann]

Your argument is that it's sexist for women to be cautious or avoiding men because of the sexism and misogyny they've experienced?

Really though? I mean...Jeeze, I can't even begin to get through to you.

That's not my argument. What I'm trying to do, is draw your eyes to a parallel that none of you will touch with a ten foot pole.

I'll ask again...

Is it racist for a man to tell every black panhandler to fuck off because of the experience he has had? Is that behaviour acceptable?

 

[satindesire]

That's not my argument. What I'm trying to do, is draw your eyes to a parallel that none of you will touch with a ten foot pole.

I'll ask again...

Is it racist for a man to tell every black panhandler to fuck off because of the experience he has had? Is that behaviour acceptable?

I have already answered your question. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean I didn't answer you.

 

[Lord Pmann]

I have already answered your question. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean I didn't answer you.

Where was the answer? I've looked and I seriously don't see it? Therapy?

That's not really an answer to the question. The question is, do you approve of a white man treating an entire race of people rudely because of his past experiences? Is that empowering? Is that acceptable? That didn't get answered.

 

[KrazyWhiteBoy]

It appeared to me that, the vast majority of women that posted on this thread made it clear that in some way they were uncomfortable with compliments from random men. That is the last thing I expected when I posted the thread. I expected some negativity, but not the majority. After reading the posts and watching the different links that were posted, it made me realize that my actions were inappropriate. They are inappropriate because they were not asked for, I imposed myself into their world, unsolicited.

I will talk race with you any time. But I will not pretend that I could begin to understand what life is like as a black man in the United States. I can read everything about the civil rights. I can hang out in the projects. But I will never know what it is like to be pulled over and have my vehicle searched because of the color of my skin.

I will also never know what it is like to be smaller than, not as strong as, and at a severe physical disadvantage to persons of the opposite sex. Are there women in this world that can physically dominate me? Yes. (please hold the BDSM comments). But the women that could, are in a very small minority.

 

[Lord Pmann]

I think everyone is missing the point I'm trying to make.

It's like this:

I disagree with a lot of what is said. Part of it is my experiences. I am not a small woman. Not at all. But the reason I have shown objection to the "hoorah for telling the men to fuck off for a compliment" is because of the race scenario I proposed.

I am uncomfortable with telling a group of black people to fuck off for the reasons mentioned. I think everyone else is too. And that's why not a single person will answer a simple yes or no question. But if you say no, it's not okay, then you have to face the fact that maybe we need to have another discussion about HOW we handle the shitty behaviour of some men.

Now, how is that sexist or misogynistic?

 

[Bramblethorn]

So why is it not empowering to tell him to fuck off?

It has been established that this may be an appropriate response from women to men because of bad experiences in the past. Is it okay from a white person to a black person?

Bad parallel. On the whole, women are disadvantaged and disempowered relative to men; white people are NOT disadvantaged and disempowered relative to blacks.

If you want to make a race-based parallel, try: black guy who's been passed over by white employer in favour of less-qualified white guy, who's been repeatedly pulled over for DWB, and hears similar stories from half his friends, is approached by a white cop and tells him to FO.

 

[Lord Pmann]

Bad parallel. On the whole, women are disadvantaged and disempowered relative to men; white people are NOT disadvantaged and disempowered relative to blacks.

If you want to make a race-based parallel, try: black guy who's been passed over by white employer in favour of less-qualified white guy, who's been repeatedly pulled over for DWB, and hears similar stories from half his friends, is approached by a white cop and tells him to FO.

Fine, use that same parallel. You're still saying that the behaviour of telling a group of people to fuck off because of their skin colour is... Okay?

I'll even change it to make it more applicable.... Change pmann to a white woman. Now a white woman was robbed by a black man. Is it okay for her to be afraid of just black men? No white man ever harmed her. Only a black man. So, if a white man solicits her, no worries. If a black man, he gets the FO. Let's use that scenario, as it's even closer to what we discuss.

 

[KrazyWhiteBoy]

I don't believe telling the men to fuck off is the proper way to handle the situation. To me that just brings the woman down to our neanderthal level. I don't believe that the majority of women will handle the situation that way, because I believe, especially after reading the posts and links here, that the vast majority of women are trying to avoid any confrontation.

Is this how men would handle this? YES. It was asked in this thread why we don't feel the need to compliment men? The simplest answer is, because we KNOW it will lead to some form of confrontation. If you see me walking down the street, the last thing on your mind is in any way drawing negative attention from me. If we had this same attitude towards women.....end of discussion.

So, like others have said, a smile and maybe a nod of acknowledgement is as far as any of us should address a random stranger. Male or Female.

Men, we all do it. If you make eye contact with another guy, you give him a little nod of acknowledgement, "no threat or challenge here, dude".

 

[Lord Pmann]

What did you just say?

Reverse racism okay. Racism not. Got it.

ETA: tongue in cheek

 

[Que]

Whether the woman tells you to fuck off or just thinks it, and you are not socially aware enough to sense that, you should consider agoraphobia.

I don't remember what exactly I said here previously, but throwing a random compliment on your way by is pointless.

If you have this burning desire to compliment someone, at least be honest with yourself enough to admit you are attracted to them. There is no shame in feeling attraction, their is very little reason that expressing that has to be uncomfortable.

The problem is when you are not honest with yourself you cannot be honest with them and that's where the creep line is.

If you are unavailable and it is a random muse that piqued your interest, discretion is probably the better part of valor. That said, there are a million ways to disqualify yourself at the outset. "If I was twenty years younger.." or "If I was not already spoken for..." whatever.

The only time it is poorly received is when it is awkward where you leave something unexpressed like you are waiting for that to be received before actually hitting on them. If you are hitting on them, do so like a man (or a woman.)

Your mileage may vary; I am inordinately charming when I am not being an asshole.

 

[Lord Pmann]

And still, not a single person will ACTUALLY answer the race question. *crickets*