Illinois bans sales and possession of semi-automatic firearms

[Emerson40]

I did answer this indirectly before. Its simple really, because there is no effective punishment for criminal behavior there is no deterrent to violent crime, including gun crime. Obviously punishment does not stop the event the criminal is being punished for but if the punishment is severe enough it may deter others from doing the same crime. The vast majority of gun crimes are committed using illegally obtained weapons and not those purchased through legal sources. So penalizing law abiding gun owners does not deter violent crime. Gun buy backs, banning of certain types of firearms, magazine capacity limits, do absolutely nothing to deter criminals from obtaining those exact items illegally.

The mental health crisis goes all the way back to Ronald Reagan who led the charge to release mental patients and to restrict access to mental health services. Sadly that damage has never been repaired ir even seriously looked at by the government. Until mental health is seriosuly addressed at a national level this crisis will continue. A prime example is the number of mentally ill homeless people. Tell me how many homeless people you remember in your area in the 60's and 70's. The problem hasd skyrocketed and while not the entire problem mental health issues are at the fore front.

Thanks for your reply. I do think there are several problems with what you say.

The first is you haven’t explained how more guns make America safe.
I’ve heard this statement, you’ve heard it, and have probably repeated it, but yet nobody can explain how, if guns make you safe, why is the US not a safe place, given the glut of guns it has?

You talk about imposing greater penalties as deterrence, which is all well and good except for the fact that the US already has a huge prison population, unmanageably huge. El Salvador and Rwanda have higher incarceration rates per capita than the US, but not by much. Is prison or the threat of prison really a deterrent, and if you think so why isn’t there lower crime stats given the high rate of incarceration for gun crimes already?

Now you do mention how criminals use illegally obtained guns, and yes, absolutely this does happen, but how can you state that and not address the ease of obtaining firearms, the shear number of guns, or the lack of restrictions on these guns. These do go hand in hand. You don’t think a lot of these guns are gained in crimes of opportunity? What role does the gun owner play in this, if they can’t be responsible for their firearms?
And the other side of this argument which needs to addressed is that some of the most heinous of gun crimes, mass shootings and these daily multiple victim gun crimes are committed by folks with their own guns, legally obtained.

And asking that gun owners to be responsible gun owners is not penalizing them or punishing them. It’s asking them to be accountable and responsible gun owners. Registering firearms is not a ban. Zero tolerance laws regarding the handling, transporting, possession, modifying of firearms is not banning guns or punishing responsible gun owners.

Now the mental health issue has been brought up a great deal in recent years, coincidentally so with the rise in angry, white male perpetrators. The problem with this argument on its own is that mental health issues are not a problem exclusive to the US. Yes, there are many homeless and vets who struggle with mental wellness, and homeless sick vets for that matter, and even plenty folks with homes who struggle with mental wellness. But this is the case in many other parts of the world, where there’s not social safety nets for these people, but where you don’t find the rates of gun violence and mass shootings as you do in the US. Why is that, do you suppose? How can you talk about mental health issues, and not acknowledge the ease of access to firearms and the huge number of firearms, and not see that these are both contributing to the problem in the US?

I know, I know…guns aren’t bad, there are only bad people with guns. But that rings as empty as the old “thoughts and prayers” tweeted out after gun tragedies. We know there are bad people. There always have been bad people and there will continue to be bad people. You can’t control that. But you can control guns.

Other countries have done it with measurable successes in reducing gun violent crimes and gun deaths, and reducing (and eliminating in some cases) mass shootings. They haven’t banned guns. People can still hunt, target practice, and yes, even defend their home from intruders. Why do you suppose that is?

As I’ve stated before, I have no illusions that the US will ever get rid of their guns. None. They are too engrained in their culture for starters, there is an irrational fear in American society about unseen boogeymen and criminals that only guns can protect you from, and they love them too damn much, love them to the point that they are willing to pay to keep them with the blood of their citizens.
I also think the huge number of guns will damn near make it impossible to get a handle on gun violence in the US for years. But I think things will only continue to get worse for America, and you’re going to see more bloodshed and these incidents happening in greater numbers as long as you continue to look for reasons and fault, all while turning a blind eye to guns and what they could be contributing to the problems.

Solutions and improvements will continue to be out of reach if conversations do not include the proliferation of firearms in the US and the attitudes around them, and how that needs to change. Without that you can’t even start done the road to making things better.

 

[HisArpy]

Funny past couple of pages.

The anti gun nuts are wagging their fingers, saying how said it is that someone is so scared that they want a gun... but don't want guns around because they are afraid of them

Maybe the point is too subtle.

Oh no, the point isn't too subtle, it's just too dam embarrassing for the anti-gun crowd to admit it.

So they put on the fake swagger instead.

 

[HisArpy]

No because in reality you are a condescending, insincere asshole

You could have stopped right there and saved yourself 30 seconds you could have devoted to something worthwhile.

 

[HisArpy]

Although critical thinking and comprehension are traits not commonly found in the insular gun enthusiast, maybe someone is just being country dumb.

Or you just insist on being stupid in public.

 

[oggbashan]

Or you just insist on being stupid in public.

Speak for yourself. You do it often enough that you are expected to be stiupid. You rarely disappoint.

 

[PastMaster]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Well regulated does that not include regulating the types and numbers of weapons that said militia can hold? I mean where do you draw the line - or would you claim that the well regulated militia should be allowed tactical nuclear weapons, because the government has them? It's no coincidence that there are more firearms related killings per capita than in the UK - because you have guns - we dont. In the uk we have one or two mass shootings a decade, you practically have that per month. No matter what you claim if the firearms were not so readily available you would have fewer mass shootings.

 

[KeithD]

Why, yes, a proper interpretation of the Second Amendment belies all that the gun nuts in the United States hold that it covers. It doesn't cover civilians outside of a government-control military force and it doesn't cover automatic weapons. The gun nuts are insisting on their interpretation purely because they are rotten people who don't care that other folks' right to live is being violated.

The answer has come down to the gun nuts need to experience this insanity directly and personally until they understand what needs to be done.

 

[Rightguide]

Why, yes, a proper interpretation of the Second Amendment belies all that the gun nuts in the United States hold that it covers. It doesn't cover civilians outside of a government-control military force and it doesn't cover automatic weapons. The gun nuts are insisting on their interpretation purely because they are rotten people who don't care that other folks' right to live is being violated.

The answer has come down to the gun nuts need to experience this insanity directly and personally until they understand what needs to be done.

Yes, it does. The founders have said so and so has the SCOTUS. And prior to 1934 fully automatic weapons were for sale in the US to regular citizens.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Funny past couple of pages.

The anti gun nuts are wagging their fingers, saying how said it is that someone is so scared that they want a gun... but don't want guns around because they are afraid of them

Maybe the point is too subtle.

Who are the anti gun nuts posting?

Not me, I have plenty.

I just don't need them for defence.

Suck that people choose to have a society that you do think you need them for defence.

Think being the defining word in the previous opinion.

 

[ll74]

Who are the anti gun nuts posting?

Not me, I have plenty.

I just don't need them for defence.

Suck that people choose to have a society that you do think you need them for defence.

Think being the defining word in the previous opinion.

If you don't over collect them for your arsenal, can you really say you will be able to defend yourself and your family against the hellatious crime wave that has invaded America?

The answer is no. You need MOAR GUNZ!

If you haven't filled a room with AR1 through AR-15 and all the ammo that will fit, you obviously don't even know.

And obviously they will kill you all ded.

 

[icanhelp1]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Well regulated does that not include regulating the types and numbers of weapons that said militia can hold? I mean where do you draw the line - or would you claim that the well regulated militia should be allowed tactical nuclear weapons, because the government has them? It's no coincidence that there are more firearms related killings per capita than in the UK - because you have guns - we dont. In the uk we have one or two mass shootings a decade, you practically have that per month. No matter what you claim if the firearms were not so readily available you would have fewer mass shootings.

A militia in the US would be state national guard units that come under the authority of the governor unless ordered to active duty by the CiC (TITLE 10 usc ). Some Air national guard units do have NUCLEAR missions, 131st bomb wing flying B-2 bombers. State militias usually mirror their active component TOEs *table of organization and equipment* designated as (MTOEs) modified table of organization and equipment.

 

[ll74]

I had a militia once. They were cool and all, but they didn't survive the Kool aid massacre of 2010....... Not my fault.

 

[dkovic77]

The door did the job because the bad guys panicked and ran off. On a front stoop like that if they had gone either right or left and there are most likely ground level windows they could have broken and entered. Sorry folks this is the fallacy of multiple locks on your door. Unless you have bars or shutters on your ground floor windows they will not stop a forced entry.

So in reality you have 4 choices: 1) Arm yourself to protect yourself against a forced entry. 2) Have a secure safe room and be able to get to it. 3) Hide and pray they don't find you. 4) Have a security system with a loud alarm klaxon and visible strobe lights to scare off attempted forced entry.

Sure we don’t need a moat too?

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I don't collect them, they are tools. But unlike the gun nuts I really mean that...*chuckles*

If you don't over collect them for your arsenal, can you really say you will be able to defend yourself and your family against the hellatious crime wave that has invaded America?

The answer is no. You need MOAR GUNZ!

If you haven't filled a room with AR1 through AR-15 and all the ammo that will fit, you obviously don't even know.

And obviously they will kill you all ded.

No hellatious criminals here so no need for those piece of shit AR's either, useless as tits on a nun.

Currently each and everyone I own is locked in a gun safe, and they have either trigger locks or action locks on them. The ammunition is stored in a separate safe, and the ammunition itself is in locked cans in the safe.

I doubt I could even open up the required safe, and remove the gun lock and then get the ammunition out of it's safe and load them in less than five minuets total elapsed time.

Then again, I have no need.

Hell I don't even lock the doors, and I never have troubles finding my vehicle keys, since they are left in the ignition....well not in the Toyota since it has this stupid anti-theft system which shuts off the fuel pump if you leave the keys in the ignition for too long with it not running. Seriously, wtf good is that?? Take the key out and wait five mins and it starts....*chuckles* so I leave it on the drivers seat.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Or you just insist on being stupid in public.

Well you should know that feeling well!

 

[ll74]

I don't collect them, they are tools. But unlike the gun nuts I really mean that...*chuckles*

No hellatious criminals here so no need for those piece of shit AR's either, useless as tits on a nun.

Currently each and everyone I own is locked in a gun safe, and they have either trigger locks or action locks on them. The ammunition is stored in a separate safe, and the ammunition itself is in locked cans in the safe.

I doubt I could even open up the required safe, and remove the gun lock and then get the ammunition out of it's safe and load them in less than five minuets total elapsed time.

Then again, I have no need.

Hell I don't even lock the doors, and I never have troubles finding my vehicle keys, since they are left in the ignition....well not in the Toyota since it has this stupid anti-theft system which shuts off the fuel pump if you leave the keys in the ignition for too long with it not running. Seriously, wtf good is that?? Take the key out and wait five mins and it starts....*chuckles* so I leave it on the drivers seat.

Oh shush

mOARGuNzzzzz!!!!!

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Oh shush

mOARGuNzzzzz!!!!!

Well as soon as they legalise hunting of Caribou up my way, I might have to invest in another rifle!!

 

[TrailerHitch]

Thanks for your reply. I do think there are several problems with what you say.

The first is you haven’t explained how more guns make America safe.
I’ve heard this statement, you’ve heard it, and have probably repeated it, but yet nobody can explain how, if guns make you safe, why is the US not a safe place, given the glut of guns it has?

You talk about imposing greater penalties as deterrence, which is all well and good except for the fact that the US already has a huge prison population, unmanageably huge. El Salvador and Rwanda have higher incarceration rates per capita than the US, but not by much. Is prison or the threat of prison really a deterrent, and if you think so why isn’t there lower crime stats given the high rate of incarceration for gun crimes already?

Now you do mention how criminals use illegally obtained guns, and yes, absolutely this does happen, but how can you state that and not address the ease of obtaining firearms, the shear number of guns, or the lack of restrictions on these guns. These do go hand in hand. You don’t think a lot of these guns are gained in crimes of opportunity? What role does the gun owner play in this, if they can’t be responsible for their firearms?
And the other side of this argument which needs to addressed is that some of the most heinous of gun crimes, mass shootings and these daily multiple victim gun crimes are committed by folks with their own guns, legally obtained.

And asking that gun owners to be responsible gun owners is not penalizing them or punishing them. It’s asking them to be accountable and responsible gun owners. Registering firearms is not a ban. Zero tolerance laws regarding the handling, transporting, possession, modifying of firearms is not banning guns or punishing responsible gun owners.

Now the mental health issue has been brought up a great deal in recent years, coincidentally so with the rise in angry, white male perpetrators. The problem with this argument on its own is that mental health issues are not a problem exclusive to the US. Yes, there are many homeless and vets who struggle with mental wellness, and homeless sick vets for that matter, and even plenty folks with homes who struggle with mental wellness. But this is the case in many other parts of the world, where there’s not social safety nets for these people, but where you don’t find the rates of gun violence and mass shootings as you do in the US. Why is that, do you suppose? How can you talk about mental health issues, and not acknowledge the ease of access to firearms and the huge number of firearms, and not see that these are both contributing to the problem in the US?

I know, I know…guns aren’t bad, there are only bad people with guns. But that rings as empty as the old “thoughts and prayers” tweeted out after gun tragedies. We know there are bad people. There always have been bad people and there will continue to be bad people. You can’t control that. But you can control guns.

Other countries have done it with measurable successes in reducing gun violent crimes and gun deaths, and reducing (and eliminating in some cases) mass shootings. They haven’t banned guns. People can still hunt, target practice, and yes, even defend their home from intruders. Why do you suppose that is?

As I’ve stated before, I have no illusions that the US will ever get rid of their guns. None. They are too engrained in their culture for starters, there is an irrational fear in American society about unseen boogeymen and criminals that only guns can protect you from, and they love them too damn much, love them to the point that they are willing to pay to keep them with the blood of their citizens.
I also think the huge number of guns will damn near make it impossible to get a handle on gun violence in the US for years. But I think things will only continue to get worse for America, and you’re going to see more bloodshed and these incidents happening in greater numbers as long as you continue to look for reasons and fault, all while turning a blind eye to guns and what they could be contributing to the problems.

Solutions and improvements will continue to be out of reach if conversations do not include the proliferation of firearms in the US and the attitudes around them, and how that needs to change. Without that you can’t even start done the road to making things better.

No target of opportunity at my house. My gun is either with me or locked in the safe. None left out or laying around.

 

[dkovic77]

No target of opportunity at my house. My gun is either with me or locked in the safe. None left out or laying around.

Got ‘em there with you while surfing the internet like Linus used to do? Never know when you need to shoot your a post.

 

[phrodeau]

Ten years ago, Paralympian Oscar Pistorius thought his home was being invaded, so he murdered his girlfriend on Valentines Day.

 

[Emerson40]

No target of opportunity at my house. My gun is either with me or locked in the safe. None left out or laying around.

Okay. Good.



Was that your reply to my post or did you mean that for someone else?

If that is in response to my post, is there more? I ask because that only kinda addresses one of the points I raised, which was more a general comment about illegal guns getting into circulation and not about what you do yourself.

Anything to add regarding the rest put to you?

 

[TrailerHitch]

Got ‘em there with you while surfing the internet like Linus used to do? Never know when you need to shoot your a post.

Funny man. Not really though, you are little more than a sad cliche.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Thanks for your reply. I do think there are several problems with what you say.

The first is you haven’t explained how more guns make America safe.
I’ve heard this statement, you’ve heard it, and have probably repeated it, but yet nobody can explain how, if guns make you safe, why is the US not a safe place, given the glut of guns it has?

It isn't necessarily more guns or less guns, what it is is who posses the guns. If it is law abiding citizens then the danger is low, if it is criminals then the danger is high. Law abiding citizens already jump through hoops to buys guns legally. Both state and federal background checks and some places a waiting period before you can pickup your gun purchase. Obviously illegally purchased, or stolen, guns most often used by criminals do not have those hoops so laws do nothing to prevent criminals from acquiring guns.

You talk about imposing greater penalties as deterrence, which is all well and good except for the fact that the US already has a huge prison population, unmanageably huge. El Salvador and Rwanda have higher incarceration rates per capita than the US, but not by much. Is prison or the threat of prison really a deterrent, and if you think so why isn’t there lower crime stats given the high rate of incarceration for gun crimes already?

My response to this is far too often plea bargaining and probation destroy any real punishment deterrent especially if the perpetrator is under the age of 18.

Now you do mention how criminals use illegally obtained guns, and yes, absolutely this does happen, but how can you state that and not address the ease of obtaining firearms, the shear number of guns, or the lack of restrictions on these guns. These do go hand in hand. You don’t think a lot of these guns are gained in crimes of opportunity? What role does the gun owner play in this, if they can’t be responsible for their firearms?
And the other side of this argument which needs to addressed is that some of the most heinous of gun crimes, mass shootings and these daily multiple victim gun crimes are committed by folks with their own guns, legally obtained.

I answered this before. Gun owners have a duty to keep their firearms out of the hands of unauthorized users. Exactly why I have a gun safe.

I don't have statistics to counter your claim but I do not believe legally purchased firearms constitute a high number or mass shootings if used by the purchaser.

And asking that gun owners to be responsible gun owners is not penalizing them or punishing them. It’s asking them to be accountable and responsible gun owners. Registering firearms is not a ban. Zero tolerance laws regarding the handling, transporting, possession, modifying of firearms is not banning guns or punishing responsible gun owners.

Registration is a slippery slope. Firearms ownership is a consitutionally gauranteed right.

Now the mental health issue has been brought up a great deal in recent years, coincidentally so with the rise in angry, white male perpetrators. The problem with this argument on its own is that mental health issues are not a problem exclusive to the US. Yes, there are many homeless and vets who struggle with mental wellness, and homeless sick vets for that matter, and even plenty folks with homes who struggle with mental wellness. But this is the case in many other parts of the world, where there’s not social safety nets for these people, but where you don’t find the rates of gun violence and mass shootings as you do in the US. Why is that, do you suppose? How can you talk about mental health issues, and not acknowledge the ease of access to firearms and the huge number of firearms, and not see that these are both contributing to the problem in the US?

Easily in fact. If mental health issues were dealt with appropriately then the incidents of violence, gun or otherwise would be reduced. By the way more murders are committed with fists, blunt objects and knives than with the notorious AR-15 or any other rifle. Yet the AR-15 is paraded around like it is killing thousands every year.

I know, I know…guns aren’t bad, there are only bad people with guns. But that rings as empty as the old “thoughts and prayers” tweeted out after gun tragedies. We know there are bad people. There always have been bad people and there will continue to be bad people. You can’t control that. But you can control guns.

No you can't. Ther black market will always exist and criminals will always have guns even if you disarm the law abiding public.

Other countries have done it with measurable successes in reducing gun violent crimes and gun deaths, and reducing (and eliminating in some cases) mass shootings. They haven’t banned guns. People can still hunt, target practice, and yes, even defend their home from intruders. Why do you suppose that is?

Worked great in England where the murder rate with knives went up so high they worked to ban knives.

As I’ve stated before, I have no illusions that the US will ever get rid of their guns. None. They are too engrained in their culture for starters, there is an irrational fear in American society about unseen boogeymen and criminals that only guns can protect you from, and they love them too damn much, love them to the point that they are willing to pay to keep them with the blood of their citizens.
I also think the huge number of guns will damn near make it impossible to get a handle on gun violence in the US for years. But I think things will only continue to get worse for America, and you’re going to see more bloodshed and these incidents happening in greater numbers as long as you continue to look for reasons and fault, all while turning a blind eye to guns and what they could be contributing to the problems.

Mental health and punishing criminals is the answer. Looking to block the pipeline of illegal guns is another. But heck when you had a past administration running illegal guns that were involved in the deaths of police officers there really is little hope for the government to take gun running seriously.

Solutions and improvements will continue to be out of reach if conversations do not include the proliferation of firearms in the US and the attitudes around them, and how that needs to change. Without that you can’t even start done the road to making things better.

Good luck, even politicians know that gun bans are hot topics like abortion and social security.

 

[dkovic77]

Funny man. Not really though, you are little more than a sad cliche.

Nah, it’s the obsession of having guns that is sad.

But you do you. 6 year old kids don’t shoot their teachers if there aren’t guns in the house.

And yes, you said yours are secure, sure hope so. Especially if you have kids and they are in school.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

It was written when the most powerful army on Earth only had weapons that fired one round at a time. Chew on that for a while.

Like much of reality outside of Hollywood movies, one area on the planet don't make it the world. It's all relative to where you're sitting at the time.

https://www.businessinsider.com/largest-armies-history-2016-12