Offering Service vs Obeying Commands

[incubus'_sub]

RJ, I appear to have exposed a raw nerve in you & I'm sorry you see my posts in that way. LOL, no I don't have any interest in your marriage, nor am I being a bitch, despite the provocation of the barbs you have sent my way.

When people put up topics for discussion, my natural reaction is to ponder not only the topic, but why are they asking & thinking about this. It's usually because they are trying to understand, or solve a problem, in their own lives.

Try not to be so touchy. I have BEEN where you are. Incubus & I didn't fall from the sky onto a lovely soft heart shaped cushion of compatible kink. Between us we have 45 years of soul searching, learning, trying to live with vanilla partners, frustration & finally acceptance of the way we are & making the very hard decisions to live our way.

Take my thoughts with a grain of salt if you wish. I'm actually only trying to provide you with a bit more insight based on my own journey down the long, hard road.

 

[RJMasters]

I hate to jump on with a simple quote and a "me, too", but this is very well said.

Yes it is stated well, however I would say that side stepped what I was saying because it transfers the perspective from the submissive to the dominant.

My communication skills are sucking of late...but I will simply point out from the submissive persepective, I have heard it said too many times..."my world never feels more right than when I know and feel I am "owned" by him and I am his."

Not dismissing what JM said, but I think it missed what I was trying to say. Though I am open to the idea I am wrong here, in which case I wonder if submissives would care to weight in on whether the above bolded text is a true or false experience for them.

 

[satindesire]

No, I completely agree with that.

Before in my life, my last two adult LT relationships had little to no BDSM in them and I always felt that something was deeply, -fundamentally-, WRONG. Something was missing, so deeply and so badly that I could barely function at times, and would go into bouts of crushing depression. I had NO idea what was wrong with ME or HIM or the relationship.

I wandered into a few articles and postings about living in a BDSM-centered relationship and something sort of...clicked, in my head? Does that make sense?

It was like someone showing me a banquet when I didn't even know I had been starving to death. I joined different websites, I started speaking out on my own ideas.

And then I met my Dom.

It finally feels right. Really, -REALLY- right. When I look at myself in the mirror, and see my throat surrounded by the comforting grasp of his collar, I feel like I'm home.

I don't believe in soul mates. I believe that whoever could be compatible with you could be 'the one'. I believe that a relationship is what you make of it and it depends on being able to be a whole person by yourself before you can be half of a couple.

But what I do believe in is 'the fit'. Like the edges of two puzzle peices that join perfectly. And my fellow Lit-kinksters...I think I found it.

My life feels right as his Sub!

 

[RJMasters]

I am deeply grateful that my comments here have been veiwed as useful.

Onto the questions that have been asked...

About me feeling as though my ability to learn quickly and anticipate the needs of my partner is a downfall in the relationship...

Yes, I honestly feel this way. I love requests, demands, whatever you want to label them as. I feel excited, like "Here I am, needed, desired, wanted. He needs me to do something for/to him!" It's very fullfilling. The anticipation that builds is almost sexual, even when it's a relativly mundane task.

I would NEVER go lax on my service in order to nudge him into asking, because I believe that is completly passive-agressive and NOT a healthy attitude to have in a relationship, but I do -almost- wish that I wasn't so 'in tune' with him.

Thank you for answering.

As I read your response a thought occurred to me which may be totally out of left fiield but I will share it and see if anyone would like to agree/disagree or comment on it.

The thought formed when you mentioned passive agressive behavior in which to nudge. The thought is the "other-side-of-the-coin" kind of thought.

One one side of the coin you have this truism - "One cannot make/force another person submit."

One the other side of the coin you have this truism - "You cannot make/force another person dominate."

Just as there is a negative attached to the idea of trying to force submission without consent...so too there seems to be an equal inverse negative attached to the idea of trying to force one to dominate. Knowing this is probably nothing new, but what did strike me as interesting is the thought that just as a person hates it when someone tries to dominante them without consent, so do many hate it when someone tries to push them to dominate them.

I dunno...I think I am babbling now...lol

Anyways getting back to your response....I think its important that if a Dominant recognizes that they do have a submissive which has the more "offering service" it is probably because they are comfortable with that arrangement in the first place, however they should take care complacency doesn't set in, because feeling needed, desired, wanted is kinda of an important part of the whole relationship eh?

 

[beachbabe13]

New to this...

I am much more submissive than dominant... although it is possible for me to act dominant, even in a sexual situation. I am most comfortable with the subservient position.

just taking a poll please feel free to add comments. Thanks

 

[shy slave]

Yes it is stated well, however I would say that side stepped what I was saying because it transfers the perspective from the submissive to the dominant.

My communication skills are sucking of late...but I will simply point out from the submissive persepective, I have heard it said too many times..."my world never feels more right than when I know and feel I am "owned" by him and I am his."

Not dismissing what JM said, but I think it missed what I was trying to say. Though I am open to the idea I am wrong here, in which case I wonder if submissives would care to weight in on whether the above bolded text is a true or false experience for them.

At the risk of being a lone voice I would like to comment on this.

I too have heard it said by many pyl's. Some have been in that relationship for a number of years and some have been in it for a day. We have had several of those on Lit recently.

I have also heard variations of it from people in what could be considered vanilla relationships.

I don't disagree with the sentiment of what is said but I do question the subjectivity of what is said.

If you are in a relationship and you are happy (not in rapture every second of the day, but happy), then these words can easily apply.
When speaking to people about marriage it often seems it is the sentiment behind these words that convinces people they are marrying the right person, or are in a relationship with the right person.
However, when it goes wrong and possibly ends the process starts again.
D/s relationships do end, and the next one is different from the previous one. Sometimes certain aspects are given a higher or lower priority than before, or sometimes the process of how the relationship develops is different. Not better or worse, just different.
Therefore the next relationship these words can be said again but for different reasons in a different context with different underpinning aspects.
No less valid than the time before, just different.

There is a philosophical saying 'I do not know, what I do not know' and for me this applies in this instance.

When in my first ever relationship the words in bold applied, and they apply in the relationship I have now; but for different reasons and under different circumstances.
I did not know what would happen in my first relationship, nor did he. Therefore you can only measure by your own experience and what those words mean at that point in your life.
I don't believe that there is one person who can fulfil every part of us for our entire adult life. I do believe there are people who are perfect for that point in time, and that is when it feels like the sentence in bold applies.

Did that make sense?

 

[RJMasters]

I have found this thread very interesting, such a diverse collection of views has been great to read and think through.
Not sure i have coherent enough thoughts to share at present, but I agree with the bold highlighted part of satins post. I think this type of behaviour is childish and would ultimately eat into the trust in the relationship.
IMO, Regardless of how you view the power exchange of a D/s relationship, a pyl using passive-aggressive techniques to manipulate the PYL (however they choose to employ those techniques) will cause a shift making it a lesser experience over a period of time for both of them

Thank you Shy for joining the conversation...when you feel ready, I would welcome your thoughts and sharing of experiences you would like to contribute.

I touched on the passive-aggressive topic when I replied to satindesire's post.

 

[RJMasters]

I am much more submissive than dominant... although it is possible for me to act dominant, even in a sexual situation. I am most comfortable with the subservient position.

Thank you Beachbabe for joining in. Knowing where one is most comfortable is a big part in ultimately finding happiness. Knowing yourself, honesty and communication are a good combination working together. Being new, i wish you fun and safe journeys as you explore and experience further.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Ebony, I don't recall saying that I need D/s to have sex either & my observations of the people I know are just as valid as yours.

I do not recall talking about your situation at all. It is not about you. I was replying to what you were saying without it having anything to do with your situation.

No need for hissy fits. And as for your observations being just as valid as mine, I was only stating my opinions in reply to what you said. If you see something else, then that is your problem, not mine.

EB

 

[RJMasters]

At the risk of being a lone voice I would like to comment on this.

I too have heard it said my many pyl's. Some have been in that relationship for a number of years and some have been in it for a day. We have had several of those on Lit recently.

I have also heard variations of it from people in what could be considered vanilla relationships.

I don't disagree with the sentiment of what is said but I do question the subjectivity of what is said.

If you are in a relationship and you are happy (not in rapture every second of the day, but happy) then these words can easily apply.
When speaking to people about marriage it often seems it is the sentiment behind these words that convince people they are marrying the right person, or are in a relationship with the right person.
However, when it goes wrong and possibly ends the process starts again.
D/s relationships do end, and the next one is different from the previous one. Sometimes certain aspects are given a higher or lower priority than before or sometimes the process of how the relationship develops is different. Not better or worse, just different.
Therefore the next relationship these words can be said again but for different reasons in a different context with different underpinning aspects.
No less valid than the time before, just different.

There is a philosophical saying 'I do not know, what I do not know' and for me this applies in this instance.

When in my first ever relationship the words in bold applied, and they apply in the relationship I have now; but for different reasons and under different circumstances.
I did not know what would happen in my first relationship, nor did he. Therefore you can only measure by your own experience and what those words mean at that point in your life.
I don't believe that there is one person who can fulfil every part of us for our entire adult life. I do believe there are people who are perfect for that point in time, and that is when it feels like the sentence in bold applies.

Did that make sense?

Nods. It makes perfect sense.

I also think one can "feel" or "even" know a deep sense of happiness of being owned...and still in many ways be autonomious.

isn't there differing levels of how much one is willing to give over or surrendure? I think that it is true that no one is perfect and can fulfill every part of another person. I think trusting in someone else to fulfill your needs takes exactly just that...trust. Often isn't that the way it works when two people meet? There is a process of trust where by each learns the areas in which the other person does fulfill them...and through that begins to give up those parts of themselves.

The mistake that often happens is to trust to quickly or implictly and can take on that fairy tale feeling to it. I think when power is exchanged it should be based upon something more solid than just a feeling. But when it is based on something solid, I think the resulting feelings can be very good.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

I have heard it said too many times..."my world never feels more right than when I know and feel I am "owned" by him and I am his."

Not dismissing what JM said, but I think it missed what I was trying to say. Though I am open to the idea I am wrong here, in which case I wonder if submissives would care to weight in on whether the above bolded text is a true or false experience for them.

For me, that statement is true, yes. I've been with Daddy emotionally over 30 years and never once when we were apart did it ever feel right, even before I became "owned" by Him.

I don't believe that there is one person who can fulfil every part of us for our entire adult life.

shy, I agreed with much of what you said, until the part I quoted above. This is where I differ in opinion, as I do believe that there can be one person who can fulfill every part of us for our entire adult life. However I can see what I think you were getting at.

 

[RJMasters]

For me, that statement is true, yes. I've been with Daddy emotionally over 30 years and never once when we were apart did it ever feel right, even before I became "owned" by Him.

Speaking of something solid...30 years...congratz.

Thank you for weighing in on the above. The quotes speaks clearly.

 

[shy slave]

For me, that statement is true, yes. I've been with Daddy emotionally over 30 years and never once when we were apart did it ever feel right, even before I became "owned" by Him.



shy, I agreed with much of what you said, until the part I quoted above. This is where I differ in opinion, as I do believe that there can be one person who can fulfill every part of us for our entire adult life. However I can see what I think you were getting at.

dixie, thank you for pointing out there are times and situations when it can work, not only for a number of years but to the point where you only need him in your life for all those years. I have never known that situation, and I glad that someone has found something I did not know truly existed

I openly admit Andante does not fulfil all my needs. I am not referring to emotional or sexual needs, but to every aspect of life that I want to explore. We have very different outlooks on some fundamental issues. This is not an problem but we cannot have indepth conversations about some things if we do not share the same basic premise.
Equally I know I do not fulfil every part of his life, there are additional things that he needs in his life to make things complete for him. Again I am not referring to sexual or emotional things, but general things that come from basic belief systems.
We can share to a certain level, and educate or inform each other, we can even joke and tease each other, but that is all. We both need other parts of ourselves to be fulfilled by others. If that were not the case it would make LDR even more difficult than it already is.

Our phone bills are a living testament to just how much we already talk about everything else we that fulfil within each other!

Edit to add: We both also need time alone as part of that fulfilment process, it is as important an aspect as being together. Time to think and time to work things through in our minds before sharing information. It is not always about other people giving you something to make your life complete. IMO you cannot be completed by another person, but you can be enhanced and express the inner you that is normally hidden from view.

 

[JMohegan]

Yes it is stated well, however I would say that side stepped what I was saying because it transfers the perspective from the submissive to the dominant.

My communication skills are sucking of late...but I will simply point out from the submissive persepective, I have heard it said too many times..."my world never feels more right than when I know and feel I am "owned" by him and I am his."

Not dismissing what JM said, but I think it missed what I was trying to say. Though I am open to the idea I am wrong here, in which case I wonder if submissives would care to weight in on whether the above bolded text is a true or false experience for them.

RJ,

You have other great conversations going, and I do not want to derail them by backtracking. I just have a quick clarification to make here.

I do not pretend to speak for any submissives other than those who have been in a relationship with me. These women have never spoken about feeling owned, or wanting to feel owned, or desiring anything other than the symbiotic partnership that I described in my previous post. If they had a different perspective on what was going on, it is highly unlikely that the relationships would have advanced beyond the initial stages.

I have known many women who desire the feeling of being owned, and some of them have been interested in dating me. But I declined, for the sole reason that I am not interested in that type of relationship.

For me, this really is a "two sides of the same coin" kind of a thing. If one of us said something along the lines of, "my world never feels more right than when we are together (in a yin/yang sort of a way)", well.... the other would have said the same thing too. That's exactly the way it feels, to me, to be a Dominant in a D/s relationship.

 

[incubus'_sub]

I agree with you Shy & think you've described a very happy, close relationship very well.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Nodding in agreement with J Mohegan too.

 

[shy slave]

I agree with you Shy & think you've described a very happy, close relationship very well.

Thank you

 

[shy slave]

RJ,

You have other great conversations going, and I do not want to derail them by backtracking. I just have a quick clarification to make here.

I do not pretend to speak for any submissives other than those who have been in a relationship with me. These women have never spoken about feeling owned, or wanting to feel owned, or desiring anything other than the symbiotic partnership that I described in my previous post. If they had a different perspective on what was going on, it is highly unlikely that the relationships would have advanced beyond the initial stages.

I have known many women who desire the feeling of being owned, and some of them have been interested in dating me. But I declined, for the sole reason that I am not interested in that type of relationship.

For me, this really is a "two sides of the same coin" kind of a thing. If one of us said something along the lines of, "my world never feels more right than when we are together (in a yin/yang sort of a way)", well.... the other would have said the same thing too. That's exactly the way it feels, to me, to be a Dominant in a D/s relationship.

I feel owned by him, in the sense of 'belonging' not in the sense of censorship or micro management of my life.

Ownership, for me, in my own mind, is knowing that I can share anything I have on my mind with him.
He will never feel disgusted, or look down on me for something I perceive or view in a particular way.
He likes who I am, even the parts of me that I struggle with.
He supports me and I know I have a place in the world where I can show any side of myself and be accepted.
In many ways he knows me better than I think I know myself. He has proved this time and again, even when I have almost disliked his handling of my emotions I have realised later he was right in what he did or said.

Perhaps it is due to my nomadic style upbringing, but I have never felt I 'belonged' anywhere.
When I read his profile and he spoke of whomever he met eventually moving to Denmark, I did not see that as an issue. I don't feel I belong to a particular place in the world. It is simply a place to be at that point in time.

His ownership of me gives me a sense of 'being & belonging' not a sense of 'without him I am imperfect.'
I am imperfect with or without him.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Acceptance for who you are is so important. I'll add another word, valued, which is important to me too.

 

[JMohegan]

I feel owned by him, in the sense of 'belonging' not in the sense of censorship or micro management of my life.

Ownership, for me, in my own mind, is knowing that I can share anything I have on my mind with him.
He will never feel disgusted, or look down on me for something I perceive or view in a particular way.
He likes who I am, even the parts of me that I struggle with.
He supports me and I know I have a place in the world where I can show any side of myself and be accepted.
In many ways he knows me better than I think I know myself. He has proved this time and again, even when I have almost disliked his handling of my emotions I have realised later he was right in what he did or said.

Perhaps it is due to my nomadic style upbringing, but I have never felt I 'belonged' anywhere.
When I read his profile and he spoke of whomever he met eventually moving to Denmark, I did not see that as an issue. I don't feel I belong to a particular place in the world. It is simply a place to be at that point in time.

His ownership of me gives me a sense of 'being & belonging' not a sense of 'without him I am imperfect.'
I am imperfect with or without him.

Acceptance for who you are is so important. I'll add another word, valued, which is important to me too.

Nearly everything that you both are describing are emotions/reactions that I have to D/s relationships as well.

Acceptance for who I am - check
Valued - check
I can share anything - check
Partner never disgusted - check
Partner likes who I am, even the parts I struggle with - check
Partner supports & accepts me, no matter which side of myself I reveal to her - check
A sense of being & belonging - check

If this is what "ownership" means, then guess what? I have been owned by my partners too.

My prior usage of the word ownership in a D/s context has always been to refer to a Master/slave dynamic in which the slave is viewed as property, giving up all rights including control over when or if she leaves the relationship. That's not the type of thing I have ever been interested in.

However, I like this new definition of ownership and would go so far as to say that per this definition, for me, D/s feels as if we own each other.

YMMV, of course.

 

[shy slave]

Nearly everything that you both are describing are emotions/reactions that I have to D/s relationships as well.

Acceptance for who I am - check
Valued - check
I can share anything - check
Partner never disgusted - check
Partner likes who I am, even the parts I struggle with - check
Partner supports & accepts me, no matter which side of myself I reveal to her - check
A sense of being & belonging - check

If this is what "ownership" means, then guess what? I have been owned by my partners too.

My prior usage of the word ownership in a D/s context has always been to refer to a Master/slave dynamic in which the slave is viewed as property, giving up all rights including control over when or if she leaves the relationship. That's not the type of thing I have ever been interested in.

However, I like this new definition of ownership and would go so far as to say that per this definition, for me, D/s feels as if we own each other.

YMMV, of course.

I think many people would view your prior usage of the word ownership in D/s terms as correct.
It is probably me who has it wrong.

I just can't see how someone can actually control whether someone stays or leaves a relationship without there being elements of abuse attached to it.

Domestic abuse is all about the power dynamic of one person making the other feel they cannot leave. The reasons as to why they cannot leave can vary depending on how the abuser has manipulated the other person.
Many years ago I knew a lovely man whose wife abused him, she made me feel inferior and inadequate. Abuse comes in many forms, emotional abuse lives in the mind for many years after it is over.

D/s ownership should be about enhancing another person life, not making them feel a lesser person.

That said, if you listen to people many see D/s ownership just as you described it J. Which is wonderful as long as it never has to be tested.

Your comment on owning your partners made me smile. I have told him at moments when I am feeling particularly caring that he is mine, I won't be attaching a collar and lead to him to prove the point though lol

 

[incubus'_sub]

LOL, me neither. Incubus I mean, not Andante. Some things might be pushing the point a wee bit too far. J's comment struck a chord & a smile in me too.

 

[JMohegan]

Your comment on owning your partners made me smile. I have told him at moments when I am feeling particularly caring that he is mine, I won't be attaching a collar and lead to him to prove the point though lol

You understand what I was saying. Yes, I think you really do.

 

[A Desert Rose]

... I don't believe that there is one person who can fulfil every part of us for our entire adult life...

Did that make sense?

Yes, it makes sense to me, anyway. I've said it before... you can't be all things to someone, all the time.

 

[JMohegan]

LOL, me neither. Incubus I mean, not Andante. Some things might be pushing the point a wee bit too far. J's comment struck a chord & a smile in me too.

I am glad you understood my comment, too.

But I would caution both and Shy about stating too forcefully that ownership (per the strict property definition that I am used to hearing) is wrong in all situations. Unless I have greatly misunderstood Catalina's comments, for example, I believe she views her relationship in just this way. It doesn't work for me, and in fact I know very, very few people who live D/s this way. But that doesn't mean that the dynamic does not exist and it does not mean that it is inappropriate in all situations.