Okay, guys, here's a thread to air your views on voting

[twelveoone]

Thank you, chip. I doubt I'll submit anything else here, but I changed my mind about the voting, so I might about that also. I spent several hours today reading and voting on poetry from the 100 top rated poems submitted over the last thirty days, and a lot of it was very, very good. It was a good way to spend some time while waiting for the Super Bowl.

Theognis,
As you are going though this take time to read the comments with substance, the ones that mention specific things about the poem. It can give an excellent window on what the writer and the reader have to go though. On how the writer has to balance so many things in the composition, including expected audience reaction. Use it as a tool for writing. The "good" writers play to the audience, the better ones lead the audience.
Regarding submitting: It is your call, but there is nothing like getting kicked in the teeth a couple of times to let you know what to possibly avoid.
i.e. I have gotten a few ones.
Best
1201

 

[theognis]

Theognis,
As you are going though this take time to read the comments with substance, the ones that mention specific things about the poem. It can give an excellent window on what the writer and the reader have to go though. On how the writer has to balance so many things in the composition, including expected audience reaction. Use it as a tool for writing. The "good" writers play to the audience, the better ones lead the audience.
Regarding submitting: It is your call, but there is nothing like getting kicked in the teeth a couple of times to let you know what to possibly avoid.
i.e. I have gotten a few ones.
Best
1201

Actually, I have been paying considerable attention to the comments. I try to read all of them, and often find they are more interesting than the poem itself. Some of them are also very instructive, both to the author and to those of us who read them as well.

I've noticed you hand out an awful lot of 100's, and as I caught so much flak for doing that I'm wondering what your justification is for doing it.

 

[twelveoone]

Actually, I have been paying considerable attention to the comments. I try to read all of them, and often find they are more interesting than the poem itself. Some of them are also very instructive, both to the author and to those of us who read them as well.

I've noticed you hand out an awful lot of 100's, and as I caught so much flak for doing that I'm wondering what your justification is for doing it.

1. I'm often wrong. Trust me it is easy to be...poetry is that complex.
2. I sincerely regretted one 75. I held that person in too high a regard, the poem was I though too cliched. I didn't realize it was one of those dumb monthly contests, I never even bothered to comment or vote on the one that won. The better poem lost.
3. I get in enough trouble with the comments.

As far as the comments, years ago there was a person YDD. Strait shooter. Her comments were worth more than half of the poetry. She commented on three of mine 2 50's, letting me know, well it needed something. One poem I submitted, nobody touched (for months), I don't think anybody knew what to make of it, her comment and score of 100. Kept me doing whatever the fuck I am doing, even though some people think I don't, but have the nagging feeling that maybe I do. (how's that for a Bill Dada sentence, where is he anyway?)
Nowadays, it looks like Angeline and chipbuddy have really uncorked themselves...Seriously, the comments are the best of scene here ever, from everyone. The poetry not up to the heyday, (I think about 10-12 monsters, bout 20 others very good) but getting there.

 

[theognis]

1. I'm often wrong. Trust me it is easy to be...poetry is that complex.
2. I sincerely regretted one 75. I held that person in too high a regard, the poem was I though too cliched. I didn't realize it was one of those dumb monthly contests, I never even bothered to comment or vote on the one that won. The better poem lost.
3. I get in enough trouble with the comments.

As far as the comments, years ago there was a person YDD. Strait shooter. Her comments were worth more than half of the poetry. She commented on three of mine 2 50's, letting me know, well it needed something. One poem I submitted, nobody touched (for months), I don't think anybody knew what to make of it, her comment and score of 100. Kept me doing whatever the fuck I am doing, even though some people think I don't, but have the nagging feeling that maybe I do. (how's that for a Bill Dada sentence, where is he anyway?)
Nowadays, it looks like Angeline and chipbuddy have really uncorked themselves...Seriously, the comments are the best of scene here ever, from everyone. The poetry not up to the heyday, (I think about 10-12 monsters, bout 20 others very good) but getting there.

Yes, Angeline and chipbutty leave some very interesting and helpful comments, as do a few others. Yesterday I read all 100 of the top rated poems from the last 30 days, and also every single comment on them. It was very enlightening, as well as quite enjoyable.

You still didn't say why you give so many 100's, not that you need to justify them. I'm just curious. I concluded, after listening to the arguments against the way I was voting, that there was some validity in the complaints, so I've been handing out a good many fours and threes lately. Still no twos, and definitely no ones. Ones are out of the question for me. I have a hard time imagining a poem so bad I'd want to go nuclear on it.

 

[twelveoone]

Yes, Angeline and chipbutty leave some very interesting and helpful comments, as do a few others. Yesterday I read all 100 of the top rated poems from the last 30 days, and also every single comment on them. It was very enlightening, as well as quite enjoyable.

You still didn't say why you give so many 100's, not that you need to justify them. I'm just curious. I concluded, after listening to the arguments against the way I was voting, that there was some validity in the complaints, so I've been handing out a good many fours and threes lately. Still no twos, and definitely no ones. Ones are out of the question for me. I have a hard time imagining a poem so bad I'd want to go nuclear on it.

What criterion do you have for a 4?
What criterion do you have for a 3?

Mine for a 4 is I'm tired of seeing someone not make an effort for improvement
Mine for a 3 is a fuck you to the clusterfuckers, i.e. people with an entourage, gaming the system. Or those mysterious H's with two rave comments on a bad poem.
or maybe, I'm just pissed, like I'm getting with the "voting is meaningless" crowd that turns their voting on.
True it is less useful without an indication of who scored what.
2 I don't bother to read
1 is useless because it will probably be wiped.

so 5 is primarily a default. But I indicate if I believe it was really worth a 5.

I just looked at the so-called top list, my how the numbers have come down when they scrub, I remember some of these jackasses with 30-40 votes, down to a more reasonable 10-15 clusterfuckery. Those are the 100's I regretted giving.
Don't ask for a list on names. If you were here then you would know.

 

[butters]

for me -

1 = this is just awful
2 = not as bad as a one, but didn't like it at all
3 = has something that might be worth working with - keep at it
4 = liked this a lot, has loads of goodies
5 = loved it, feel enriched for having read it, wish i could have written it

 

[twelveoone]

for me -

1 = this is just awful

I can do that.

prayer wheel in ass
orange robe drunkard farts, plays
dairy queen jingles

 

[butters]

I can do that.

prayer wheel in ass
orange robe drunkard farts, plays
dairy queen jingles

oh no, not a 1 - it has way too much potential
the imagery is

vivid

made me smile

 

[theognis]

What criterion do you have for a 4?
What criterion do you have for a 3?

Mine for a 4 is I'm tired of seeing someone not make an effort for improvement
Mine for a 3 is a fuck you to the clusterfuckers, i.e. people with an entourage, gaming the system. Or those mysterious H's with two rave comments on a bad poem.
or maybe, I'm just pissed, like I'm getting with the "voting is meaningless" crowd that turns their voting on.
True it is less useful without an indication of who scored what.
2 I don't bother to read
1 is useless because it will probably be wiped.

so 5 is primarily a default. But I indicate if I believe it was really worth a 5.

I just looked at the so-called top list, my how the numbers have come down when they scrub, I remember some of these jackasses with 30-40 votes, down to a more reasonable 10-15 clusterfuckery. Those are the 100's I regretted giving.
Don't ask for a list on names. If you were here then you would know.

For my purposes, at this point, I've decided five means excellent. Doesn't have to be perfect, but has to be better than very good. Includes very, very good.
Four means good. Covers a wide area between five and three. Well above average, but leaves something to be desired.
Three means mediocre. Includes a little above and a little below average.
Two means poor. Bad enough to deserve a conventional bomb.
One means despicable. Deserving of nuclear annihilation.

You make an excellent point about those who turn voting on but say voting is meaningless. That doesn't make much sense.

I wonder if you're right and the one-bombs I attracted will be wiped. Somehow I doubt it, with my luck.

 

[butters]

you opt out of 'votes on', rather than in...

most of us are not greatly fussed. it's nice to get great votes, but it's all about context

if i receive a high score from a poet i respect and admire, that pleases me far more than getting a 5 from someone i don't know at all or who write, imo, badly. maybe that's not right, but it is how it is. same for the reverse - if those good 'uns score me way low, i KNOW i'm doing something really wrong.

 

[vrosej10]

When Ifirst started posting here, I got lots of ones and people ignored my stuff. A lot of it sucked. I used these low scores as motivation to improve. I read everything I could get my hands on, payed attention to what I was being told. Think of negative feedback as a gift that spurs you to greater heights or ignore me. This is just an opinion.

 

[theognis]

you opt out of 'votes on', rather than in...

most of us are not greatly fussed. it's nice to get great votes, but it's all about context

if i receive a high score from a poet i respect and admire, that pleases me far more than getting a 5 from someone i don't know at all or who write, imo, badly. maybe that's not right, but it is how it is. same for the reverse - if those good 'uns score me way low, i KNOW i'm doing something really wrong.

I opted out after getting hit with three one-bombs. The last two were moments apart on separate poems and appeared to be part of a carpet bombing attack so I quickly turned off the voting. I wouldn't have opted out had those one-bombs not occurred. The funny thing is, after the first one-bomb knocked me down, enough time elapsed before the other two came that I got two more five votes on the poem that was hit first, and those votes lifted me back up to where I qualified for an additional 'H' for that poem. I actually thought about turning the voting off on that poem but figured there was virtually no chance it would get hit by another one-bomb. I was wrong.

I think my turning off voting isn't anything like people who say voting is meaningless turning it on for their poems. Obviously I don't think it's meaningless.

 

[theognis]

When Ifirst started posting here, I got lots of ones and people ignored my stuff. A lot of it sucked. I used these low scores as motivation to improve. I read everything I could get my hands on, payed attention to what I was being told. Think of negative feedback as a gift that spurs you to greater heights or ignore me. This is just an opinion.

I didn't mind the constructive criticism I was getting before this stuff started. I don't want to get into the quagmire again, so I'll let it go at that.

 

[twelveoone]

When Ifirst started posting here, I got lots of ones and people ignored my stuff. A lot of it sucked. I used these low scores as motivation to improve. I read everything I could get my hands on, payed attention to what I was being told. Think of negative feedback as a gift that spurs you to greater heights or ignore me. This is just an opinion.

I make no apologies for the 5's or 100's I gave you, for that reason.

 

[twelveoone]

For my purposes, at this point, I've decided five means excellent. Doesn't have to be perfect, but has to be better than very good. Includes very, very good.
Four means good. Covers a wide area between five and three. Well above average, but leaves something to be desired.
Three means mediocre. Includes a little above and a little below average.
Two means poor. Bad enough to deserve a conventional bomb.
One means despicable. Deserving of nuclear annihilation.

You make an excellent point about those who turn voting on but say voting is meaningless. That doesn't make much sense.

I wonder if you're right and the one-bombs I attracted will be wiped. Somehow I doubt it, with my luck.

and then it becomes a question of how do you determine, what is good....mediocre.
In my mind, if I see (and I don't always) how easy would it be for me to duplicate? Maybe I should adjust my scoring.

 

[theognis]

what matters about the voting, theo, is that you are happy that you vote true and fair. we cannot be responsible for how others vote or behave, only how we, ourselves, do.

keep writing

Chip, I've decided to take your advice; I've written another poem, and just now submitted it to Lit. It's nothing earth-shattering, but I honestly feel it is very, very good, for the type of poem it is, and deserving of a five vote. For that reason, I'm allowing voting on it. I guess we'll see what all of you think in the next few days. I hope the poem will be judged on its merits, and not for any other reason.

 

[butters]

Chip, I've decided to take your advice; I've written another poem, and just now submitted it to Lit. It's nothing earth-shattering, but I honestly feel it is very, very good, for the type of poem it is, and deserving of a five vote. For that reason, I'm allowing voting on it. I guess we'll see what all of you think in the next few days. I hope the poem will be judged on its merits, and not for any other reason.

seriously, theo, people here are better than this.

anywhere, anywhere, we submit a piece into the public domain it has to stand alone. there will always be people who don't like what we write, all the time or from time to time, but i honestly think this site's pretty damned good when it comes to voting how they feel. as its author, you need to be able to stand back and accept it might get high, low or indifferent scores.

i'm not saying you have, but to send it out thinking it has to draw 5 votes because that's what it deserves (to your thinking) or else there's foul play at work is really not the sort of attitude to be encouraged. if you are happy with it, then great. i have to say i really struggled with it, if it's the than/then one

 

[theognis]

seriously, theo, people here are better than this.

anywhere, anywhere, we submit a piece into the public domain it has to stand alone. there will always be people who don't like what we write, all the time or from time to time, but i honestly think this site's pretty damned good when it comes to voting how they feel. as its author, you need to be able to stand back and accept it might get high, low or indifferent scores.

i'm not saying you have, but to send it out thinking it has to draw 5 votes because that's what it deserves (to your thinking) or else there's foul play at work is really not the sort of attitude to be encouraged. if you are happy with it, then great. i have to say i really struggled with it, if it's the than/then one

The first one-bomb just hit, dropping the rating from 4.67 to 4.14. Interesting.

 

[butters]

The first one-bomb just hit, dropping the rating from 4.67 to 4.14. Interesting.

i have refrained from voting so far, theo - but i would have only voted a 2. i just don't feel it. sorry.

and why does it have to be a 'bomb'? why not accept it as a straight vote? the word bomb implies sabotage, and i know you felt that way before and, if friday said what he did, then it was to an extent - but you only know that about his vote, not about other votes you received. i expect friday would see it as 'evening up' what he perceived to be an out of balance score. the thing is, why - if you're getting lots of 5's - aren't you calling them five-elevators, or five geysers! or something... either way the 5's are propelling your writes upwards in a dramatic fashion as much as one 'bombs' drive them down.

how about saving the emotive terminology for your writing?

 

[butters]

The first one-bomb just hit, dropping the rating from 4.67 to 4.14. Interesting.

and to drive the point home, posts like this attract the wandering trolls who contribute little or no poetry or comments, simply look for who's threshing about and sniff blood. it's nothing to them.

in the question of fair ratings, should i contribute my vote? it would bring down your overall score, but is it fair that i don't vote? isn't that as bad, making your results artificial?

 

[theognis]

i have refrained from voting so far, theo - but i would have only voted a 2. i just don't feel it. sorry.

and why does it have to be a 'bomb'? why not accept it as a straight vote? the word bomb implies sabotage, and i know you felt that way before and, if friday said what he did, then it was to an extent - but you only know that about his vote, not about other votes you received. i expect friday would see it as 'evening up' what he perceived to be an out of balance score. the thing is, why - if you're getting lots of 5's - aren't you calling them five-elevators, or five geysers! or something... either way the 5's are propelling your writes upwards in a dramatic fashion as much as one 'bombs' drive them down.

how about saving the emotive terminology for your writing?

Well, I call them one-bombs because that's what others have called them ever since I've been here, and long before. And I predicted, privately, that this poem would get bombed, so don't think for a moment I thought it would get all fives. After what I know about the way things work here, that was never going to happen.

 

[theognis]

and to drive the point home, posts like this attract the wandering trolls who contribute little or no poetry or comments, simply look for who's threshing about and sniff blood. it's nothing to them.

in the question of fair ratings, should i contribute my vote? it would bring down your overall score, but is it fair that i don't vote? isn't that as bad, making your results artificial?

This is kind of an experiment, chip, just to see what will happen. I wouldn't encourage you or discourage you to vote. I think you're one of the nicest people here, by the way, and one of the most honest, but I do think you and some others have a very narrow view of what constitutes poetry.

 

[butters]

Well, I call them one-bombs because that's what others have called them ever since I've been here, and long before. And I predicted, privately, that this poem would get bombed, so don't think for a moment I thought it would get all fives. After what I know about the way things work here, that was never going to happen.

excuse me?

your disagreement was with friday over how he voted.

what exactly do you mean 'the way things work here'?
it's exactly this sort of expression that can irritate the patient here.

 

[theognis]

The second one-bomb just hit, driving the rating down to 3.75. It's going to be interesting to see how this goes.

 

[butters]

This is kind of an experiment, chip, just to see what will happen. I wouldn't encourage you or discourage you to vote. I think you're one of the nicest people here, by the way, and one of the most honest, but I do think you and some others have a very narrow view of what constitutes poetry.

thankyou


you would be very wrong about that, theo. i used to run my own writing site, and i actively welcomed as broad a spectrum of poetry as was out there, where many sites would only accept form, or free verse, or uber modern, or flowery purple verse. i believe very strongly that there's room for all sorts of poetry - so long as it is done well. if i have a blind spot when it comes to the mnemonic you posted, then i am unaware of it or - at least - unrepentant