slave/sub requests

[Esclava]

Esclava,

pardon me for speaking to this but nowhere in the original post did i read what you say was there. and in the quote here you speak of hypothetical things, things you may be doing when you might ask for a spanking.

i do feel manipulated by this revisionist history style of soliciting feedback.

if i missed something please clarify and let me learn how and where i lost track of the basis for this thread.

thank you, shy

Shy,

The original premise of the thread was to seek answers to a hypothetical situation. The intent was to solicit opinions from those who have a deeper knowledge base than I and were willing to share them. To that end, I have been successful.

If someone else had written this thread, I would have responded to it the way I did in what you consider "the revision". It is not a revision, I deliberately did not put my personal experience into the original question because I wanted input to come from different points of view - not just from the perspective of what I have been through. I want you to tell me what you see through your eyes - not what you see, looking at me, through your eyes.

If you feel manipulated, I am, profoundly, sorry. That was not my intent - and never has been. I will continue to thank everyone who responds to this thread because, as Catalina said, there IS great material here and I am learning a lot.

Esclava

 

[Esclava]

<snip> ...

has Esclava ever really experienced the sublime process of serving a Dom/me?

<snip>

Yes, I have, but we were a match made in hell and I suffered tremendously for it. I would prefer not to make the same mistake twice.

Esclava

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Wow, Esclava, I took your post so differently. As just a simple request to know if the phrase you were using sounded ok, sufficiently suited to protocol, so that as a relative beginner ( I assumed this from your asking) you wouldn't make some embarrassing newbie mistake. Seems everyone else wrote a lot more into this.

ownedsubgal, you said: "what i do believe is that there are major personality traits that submissives share (and no, shyness or fear of one's Dominant would not be among them)...the main trait being...*drum roll*...a submissive personality! stating the obvious to me, but i know many others in the lifestyle feel that one doesn't necessarily have to be submissive, in order to be "a" submissive. that's a whole other topic however."

That Does seem to have Become the topic, however. Maybe I have the way wrong end of the stick but I thought submission was what we Do, not what we Are.
In fact, for me at least, it may be like the difference between a guy who gets off on wearing women's underwear and a guy who was born feeling like a woman. I get off on submission -- it gives me a warm wet open feeling inside, even a non-sexual one at times. I don't, however, take a submissive life-stance in the world. (Maybe I did when I was a more saintly youth, but now I feel some things need to be fought. That, for instance, by allowing a bad person to hurt you against your will, that rather than setting a good turn-the-other=cheek example for that person, you are, in fact, giving that bad person permission to go hurt someone else. I no longer see Submission as a way to be in the world, as morally superior. Perhaps this is all a totally different topic but it somehow seemed pertinent to me.) Anyway, the point is, for me it's about Sex and what feels sexy. What feels good. My Sexual submission surely goes as deep as anybody's. I seem to go into subspace quite easily, where anything goes.

You also said: " basically i just wanted to say to you here (and to ADR as well) that i don't judge what is or is not submissive based on what i personally would or would not do. so, the issues i have with the "at your pleasure" example have nothing at all to do with the fact that it's something ownedsubgal would never say...it is just something that a submissive (from my own beliefs as to what that means) imo would never say, any more than a talking pig would say he loves bacon."

Like Caitlynne, I really wonder what 'a submissive' would do and say if 'obedience does not equate to submission, imo. making the conscious choice to be obedient, or even to serve, a particular person, at a particular time (i.e. a Dominant in a relationship) is not what makes one a submissive imo. having a naturally submissive personality in general, is what makes one a submissive imo. '

And, frankly, you don't strike me as having a particularly submissive personality by any definition I've ever read or seen, so does that mean you're not a submissive? To submit is to give in, and you certainly aren't doing that!
The description I like best, though, is the need to serve. That's the one that strikes a cord with me. How about you?

(And btw, a talking pig Would probably say he loves bacon. Pigs will eat and love to eat anything.)

 

[Esclava]

Wow, Esclava, I took your post so differently. As just a simple request to know if the phrase you were using sounded ok, sufficiently suited to protocol, so that as a relative beginner ( I assumed this from your asking) you wouldn't make some embarrassing newbie mistake. Seems everyone else wrote a lot more into this.

<snip>

I have a 2 yr history with a r/l Dom that was tolerable at its best and horrific at its worst. So, you might say that I am a "newbie" seeking information to help me NOT make the same mistake twice. I had pushed submission from my heart - never to be revisited, ever - until I became involved with One online who reawakened the submissive spirit to serve in me. I agree with the statement that submission, especially in M/D/s, "is the need to serve."

In every thread I have ever responded to, I have said I am here to learn. If I asked a thought provoking question (which, obviously, this one was), perhaps it needed asking. But it was asked as it was to give you the widest possible berth in which to respond - I did not want "pat" answers. I asked an honest question to receive honest responses and that is what is here.

LET THE DISCUSSION CONTINUE!

Esclava

 

[shyly curious]

maybe i am off in left field, if so ignore me, ...

when i sit in a quiet room, alone, and look in myself and tally all that i am, and all that i feel, i find i "know" who i am.

then the question becomes how much of what i keep hidden and secret and unfulfilled am i willing to explore and how much am i willing to forego exploring.

i cannot push aside that which i am, i can only chose to explore or not explore.

learning is good, may we never cease learning and growing ...

be well all, shy

 

[Etoile]

those are such embarassing, awkward moments for me. it always starts with..."Daddy?"...then he will say "hmm?" or "yes, sweetie?".. or some such thing....and there will be a long pause while i am trying to get up the nerve....and then i will just blurt it out, as fast as i can, as quietly as i can while still being heard, "do you think that well...i mean, may i...i mean...i just wondered if maybe...if you want...you could give me a spanking sometime?"...and almost instantly i am regretting making the request

Ah. That's pretty much how I speak all the time, with everybody. The only time I'm more demanding with Daddy is if I need a drink of water. (I tend to breathe and sometimes hyperventilate through my mouth both during sex and while being whipped or otherwise hurt, so we keep something to drink handy.) Even then my phraseology is just "may i have some water please" because I don't want to disrupt the action just because I need to keep hydrated!

 

[ownedsubgal]

This is one of those statements that always intrigues me.

We all obey the laws of a nation, state or community or we go to jail. We all obey certain social conveniences or we are ostracized. In that sense certainly I *would* say that Dominants are submitting to the law.

Many who have religious beliefs obey the laws of the canon of a church, in a sense submit to religious law. There are countless examples of obedience to the laws of man, family and God.

But none of them are examples of submission in a D/s sense, and as Catalina pointed out so well, we are only talking about submission in a D/s sense. (Or at least I thought we were)

Maybe it would be better to state that not all obedience is submissive in nature, but all submissives are obedient.



OK, now I'm having trouble wraping my brain around this one.

May I ask, if submission for you does not revolve around serving a Dominant and you do not see obedience in a submissive as necessarily submissive, what is submission to you?

~ Cait

hi Cait....my beliefs are probably different from most that you would find on a typical internet bdsm or D/s related website, in that i don't think being a Dominant or being a submissive has to in any way involve the D/s lifestyle. many people are Dominants and submissives and know nothing about D/s, and would have no interest in D/s if they did know about it. that makes them no less Dominant or submissive. so, likewise, i don't think one has to serve or be with a Dominant in order to be submissive. i was born a submissive, have naturally responded in that way all my life...as for relationships with men, obviously the vast majority of them in my pre-D/s lifetime, were not Dominants. yet i still submitted to them and was still "a" submissive.

i stated earlier that obedience does not equal submission. to clarify, i don't believe that by simply being obedient, a person is submitting or expressing submission. but to take it a step further...i do not think that one is a submissive, simply because they submit. just as anyone can obey, anyone can submit. another poster here stated that for them submission is not about who you are but rather what you do...my beliefs are the exact opposite. actions are just actions, that anyone can replicate if they wish. but who you truly are inside...what you feel, how you think, what you need, how you react to the world around you, your personality and your nature...that is where i look for someone's submissiveness.

 

[ownedsubgal]

As we have discussed before, IMHO just because someone has a submissive personality, that does not necessarily equate they are 'a submissive'. It doesn't gel to me to compare everyday mainstream life such as law enforcement issues with D/s lifestyle to judge whether someone is submissive or a submissive. The two worlds do not operate on the same level of understanding, though they need to operate in the same physical world we all live in....and submissive personality and a submissive are two different things. Someone who has a submissive personality, as in non-assertive for whatever reason, does not to me say they are obviousy a submissive in D/s understanding or that they would ever want to be, or be able to fulfil that role.

For me it comes down to the person inside, not their outward actions, or whether they are a 'yes' person...it is whether to be truly happy in the deepest corners of their soul they feel submission provides that state, that deep satisfaction which tells them they are where they need to be and nowhere else will do.

It isn't IMO about a submissive having no other choice, feeling ineffective against withstanding the demands of others or the world, or needing protection, though they may be factors of the personality. If someone tells me they are a submissive or slave because they cannot be assertive and decide for themselves, or felt they had no choice in the matter, I begin to question if it is a matter of convenience, fear, abuse, more so than submission. I don't believe, and I may be wrong, that anyone who is not abused or in a state where they are incapable of making choices for themselves, will choose to be a submissive to another for no reason. There is no point to it.

As much as there is this fantasy woven by some that submission is altruistic in that it is done 100% for the good of another with no thought to the submissives needs, wants, or desires at point of submission or after, I don't see it. Even if one submits because they feel the need to serve, be treated as sub-human, humiliated, trained, suffer, etc., the bottom line is they seek that submission not because they are so submissive they have no choice, but because it answers a need in them. In that sense, as others have said, they may be sassy, loud, sluttish, passive, or plain boring, the common denominator being they are submissives, not necessarily submissive personalities.

Catalina

this is another one of those subjects where we will just have to agree to disagree Catalina. i do not feel that a submissive submits because it is what fulfills them...because it is what they wish to do. i feel a submissive submits because it's what comes naturally to them. they may wish to submit, or they may wish to run screaming, but either way, they submit. it is just who they are. but i do not feel this has to stem from any low self-esteem, or various problems throughout one's life, or that one must be self-destructive in order to be a submissive. what i do feel, heck, what i KNOW, is that being a natural submissive makes one extremely vulnerable in life, to the point where most who fall into that category will have been abused at some point because of this vulnerability...and then because of the abuse, usually repeated, they develop the emotional problems. but the submission is pure and comes from nature.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Wow, Esclava, I took your post so differently. As just a simple request to know if the phrase you were using sounded ok, sufficiently suited to protocol, so that as a relative beginner ( I assumed this from your asking) you wouldn't make some embarrassing newbie mistake. Seems everyone else wrote a lot more into this.

ownedsubgal, you said: "what i do believe is that there are major personality traits that submissives share (and no, shyness or fear of one's Dominant would not be among them)...the main trait being...*drum roll*...a submissive personality! stating the obvious to me, but i know many others in the lifestyle feel that one doesn't necessarily have to be submissive, in order to be "a" submissive. that's a whole other topic however."

That Does seem to have Become the topic, however. Maybe I have the way wrong end of the stick but I thought submission was what we Do, not what we Are.
In fact, for me at least, it may be like the difference between a guy who gets off on wearing women's underwear and a guy who was born feeling like a woman. I get off on submission -- it gives me a warm wet open feeling inside, even a non-sexual one at times. I don't, however, take a submissive life-stance in the world. (Maybe I did when I was a more saintly youth, but now I feel some things need to be fought. That, for instance, by allowing a bad person to hurt you against your will, that rather than setting a good turn-the-other=cheek example for that person, you are, in fact, giving that bad person permission to go hurt someone else. I no longer see Submission as a way to be in the world, as morally superior. Perhaps this is all a totally different topic but it somehow seemed pertinent to me.) Anyway, the point is, for me it's about Sex and what feels sexy. What feels good. My Sexual submission surely goes as deep as anybody's. I seem to go into subspace quite easily, where anything goes.

You also said: " basically i just wanted to say to you here (and to ADR as well) that i don't judge what is or is not submissive based on what i personally would or would not do. so, the issues i have with the "at your pleasure" example have nothing at all to do with the fact that it's something ownedsubgal would never say...it is just something that a submissive (from my own beliefs as to what that means) imo would never say, any more than a talking pig would say he loves bacon."

Like Caitlynne, I really wonder what 'a submissive' would do and say if 'obedience does not equate to submission, imo. making the conscious choice to be obedient, or even to serve, a particular person, at a particular time (i.e. a Dominant in a relationship) is not what makes one a submissive imo. having a naturally submissive personality in general, is what makes one a submissive imo. '

And, frankly, you don't strike me as having a particularly submissive personality by any definition I've ever read or seen, so does that mean you're not a submissive? To submit is to give in, and you certainly aren't doing that!
The description I like best, though, is the need to serve. That's the one that strikes a cord with me. How about you?

(And btw, a talking pig Would probably say he loves bacon. Pigs will eat and love to eat anything.)

Phoenix Stone, actually i have heard fairly often that i do not come across as submissive online. i suppose that is because i have no problem expressing my opinions through this medium, and because i am not easily swayed to the opinion or beliefs of others. somehow, these traits are seen as unsubmissive. to be submissive is not to be mindless or witless, though i would agree with you that part of being a submissive is giving in. the fact that i have strong beliefs and opinions and am able to express them via the written word, certainly does not mean that i do not "give in". but i suppose it's all a matter of perception.

as for the need to serve...yes i suppose i would agree that that is part of being a submissive, but i would say this need to serve comes from the need to please...make others happy or feel good. and would again, apply to general life and not one limited facet of life, such as sexuality or a relationship.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

maybe i am off in left field, if so ignore me, ...

when i sit in a quiet room, alone, and look in myself and tally all that i am, and all that i feel, i find i "know" who i am.

then the question becomes how much of what i keep hidden and secret and unfulfilled am i willing to explore and how much am i willing to forego exploring.

i cannot push aside that which i am, i can only chose to explore or not explore.

learning is good, may we never cease learning and growing ...

be well all, shy

You're not left of My field, anyway

That was so well said. Really teases out something I've been trying to understand. A sort of conundrum about subbie folks married to vanilla spouses -- how could they then leave their spouse? Wouldn't being sub to their partner entail enduring being adored and treated with oh so much gentleness, if this was their partners need and wish? I feel like this is sort of where I've been -- outside of allowing myself the fantasies that allow me to come, I'd so subordinated my own sexual tendencies in favor of those of my husband, that I was taken by extreme shock when something happened to push that button after 23 years of marriage. It's so hard to hold on to it, to fight for it, in some sense, especially to do so gently and without hurting my husband. Selfish, it feels so selfish -- and yet the alternative seems to be to risk being caught by surprise again, in a way that could turn out worse this time. Or put out my eyes, metaphorically speaking.

I've tried so hard to be someone else. Someone better than me, with, among other things, fantasies of which I can approve -- frolicking under a waterfall, anyone?

The good part is, I seem to be discovering that my husband has some definite domish (domly?) tendencies and he's now enjoying much of this. This thread even taught me how to tell him something I'd tried to talk with him about for years. My approach was just irritating him and i didn't know how to do it better. So I just didn't say anything. Reading here, I tried waiting until a mellow moment, and then basically said that I wanted to tell him so that he could have the information (about how a certain thing effects me) so that he could choose based on the affect he was trying to have. Something like that. Said it better than that at the time. Anyway, thanks All.

 

[catalina_francisco]

this is another one of those subjects where we will just have to agree to disagree Catalina. i do not feel that a submissive submits because it is what fulfills them...because it is what they wish to do. i feel a submissive submits because it's what comes naturally to them. they may wish to submit, or they may wish to run screaming, but either way, they submit. it is just who they are. but i do not feel this has to stem from any low self-esteem, or various problems throughout one's life, or that one must be self-destructive in order to be a submissive. what i do feel, heck, what i KNOW, is that being a natural submissive makes one extremely vulnerable in life, to the point where most who fall into that category will have been abused at some point because of this vulnerability...and then because of the abuse, usually repeated, they develop the emotional problems. but the submission is pure and comes from nature.

First, I think it important to remember a victim mentality and circumstance does no equate to that of a submissive personality 100%, so being the victim/survivor of abuse does not necessarily say the person is submissive in nature, but that is another conversation. I think in general terms osg, anything which comes naturally to a person and is acted on instead of fought against, fulfils the person in question on some level as it is the easy route for them in that they have none of the struggles of trying to deny what comes as a reflex action. It may in your view be difficult because you see in terms of submission it is placing oneself in the position of being anyone's pawn, someone to be used and abused, but also by your own admission, this is what appeals to you. That to me says your needs are being fulfilled, not you are acting out of something 100% natural and beyond your control, and fulfilling the needs of others solely for their happiness and pleasure without thought to your own. You say because of your subissive nature you have no choice, but that to me translates to it is easier for you personally to go with the flow of what requires no effort to deny, as opposed to stepping outside the box and submitting by going against your natural response.

It is difficult to explain in this medium what I am trying to say, but I will try. Apart from the fact discussing a submissive personality, and a submissive are 2 different discussions IMO, most understand the term in D/s terms of being a submissive to mean you submit by choice to another's will and power. I have been told by many I am more submissive than anyone they have met in terms of D/s, but I still feel I make that choice. Added to that, in mainstream society I have been shit on regularly because of my dislike for shafting others and conflict (ie. my submissive nature from birth), but I still have a choice, just the choice to always be on guard and fight back is not what comes to me naturally, or what I find pleasant.....touch anyone I care for or even a stranger though and I am likely to come out fighting to protect them long before I would do the same for myself when unowned. Is mostly why I choose to retire from mainstream society and am happy as a recluse....I find it too difficult to survive in the world we now have where people are just another number and fodder for the power machine run by a few, and most feel they owe no-one else consideration or respect or caring.

This is where the 2 discussions can cross and meet in places. The challenge IMHO lies in submitting not because you feel so helpless you don't have a choice, but in making that choice to submit as a submissive to the one who you can devote all your energy to making happy in whatever way they choose....just as in everyday society a submissive natured person has to learn to be assertive at least part of the time to survive. In the D/s relationship, part of the Dominant's happiness from most relationships I have seen, comes from knowing their submissive is trustworthy enough to know the submission is given to them only unless otherwise requested, and the innate desire to say 'yes' to anyone because it is easier than to say no and feel uncomfortable, shameful, or scared, is fought against and controlled to honour that initial submission, and in our situation, ownership. As owned property, whether I am claiming to be naturally submissive or not, I no longer have the right to submit to another without his permission....no discussion is required, no quarter given, if I submit to another on any level without his expressed wish, no excuse will wash with him. This includes agreeing to babysit for someone, giving my time to someone in need, sexually, or anything...as his property I am no longer able to decide how my time and energy will be used.

I find saying yes to anyone for anything easier too on the surface and in the moment, but I do not have to be guarded by Master to ensure I do not act on that as I have given my life to him which means he owns me and I no longer have the choice to submit, or agree, to another's request and blame it on my submissive nature.....I am expected to fight against that natural and easy response with or without his presence and assistance. That does not mean I am not a submissive/slave, or any less or more submissive than you or any other, but to us it means I value the submission and the dominance in our union and respect it enough to fight against what comes naturally.

And also, self centered though it may be, I enjoy this challenge and the knowledge I am doing something for him which brings him no end of pleasure and peace, and something no other ever has successfully done for him. To me it is the ultimate challenge and the ultimate high to know my particular submission brings him more pleasure than one where he was forever on guard because I was so submissive in nature I could or would not say no to anyone or anything without constant enforcement from him. Call him lazy, but I think it understandable he wants to know I submit to him because it is both my nature and my choice, and that he can rest easy I will challenge those parts of me which would drift aimlessly if I did not honour his ownership to the point I will repress what comes naturally to do what is expected in submission to this one.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

First, I think it important to remember a victim mentality and circumstance does no equate to that of a submissive personality 100%, so being the victim/survivor of abuse does not necessarily say the person is submissive in nature, but that is another conversation. I think in general terms osg, anything which comes naturally to a person and is acted on instead of fought against, fulfils the person in question on some level as it is the easy route for them in that they have none of the struggles of trying to deny what comes as a reflex action. It may in your view be difficult because you see in terms of submission it is placing oneself in the position of being anyone's pawn, someone to be used and abused, but also by your own admission, this is what appeals to you. That to me says your needs are being fulfilled, not you are acting out of something 100% natural and beyond your control, and fulfilling the needs of others solely for their happiness and pleasure without thought to your own. You say because of your subissive nature you have no choice, but that to me translates to it is easier for you personally to go with the flow of what requires no effort to deny, as opposed to stepping outside the box and submitting by going against your natural response.

It is difficult to explain in this medium what I am trying to say, but I will try. Apart from the fact discussing a submissive personality, and a submissive are 2 different discussions IMO, most understand the term in D/s terms of being a submissive to mean you submit by choice to another's will and power. I have been told by many I am more submissive than anyone they have met in terms of D/s, but I still feel I make that choice. Added to that, in mainstream society I have been shit on regularly because of my dislike for shafting others and conflict (ie. my submissive nature from birth), but I still have a choice, just the choice to always be on guard and fight back is not what comes to me naturally, or what I find pleasant.....touch anyone I care for or even a stranger though and I am likely to come out fighting to protect them long before I would do the same for myself when unowned. Is mostly why I choose to retire from mainstream society and am happy as a recluse....I find it too difficult to survive in the world we now have where people are just another number and fodder for the power machine run by a few, and most feel they owe no-one else consideration or respect or caring.

This is where the 2 discussions can cross and meet in places. The challenge IMHO lies in submitting not because you feel so helpless you don't have a choice, but in making that choice to submit as a submissive to the one who you can devote all your energy to making happy in whatever way they choose....just as in everyday society a submissive natured person has to learn to be assertive at least part of the time to survive. In the D/s relationship, part of the Dominant's happiness from most relationships I have seen, comes from knowing their submissive is trustworthy enough to know the submission is given to them only unless otherwise requested, and the innate desire to say 'yes' to anyone because it is easier than to say no and feel uncomfortable, shameful, or scared, is fought against and controlled to honour that initial submission, and in our situation, ownership. As owned property, whether I am claiming to be naturally submissive or not, I no longer have the right to submit to another without his permission....no discussion is required, no quarter given, if I submit to another on any level without his expressed wish, no excuse will wash with him. This includes agreeing to babysit for someone, giving my time to someone in need, sexually, or anything...as his property I am no longer able to decide how my time and energy will be used.

I find saying yes to anyone for anything easier too on the surface and in the moment, but I do not have to be guarded by Master to ensure I do not act on that as I have given my life to him which means he owns me and I no longer have the choice to submit, or agree, to another's request and blame it on my submissive nature.....I am expected to fight against that natural and easy response with or without his presence and assistance. That does not mean I am not a submissive/slave, or any less or more submissive than you or any other, but to us it means I value the submission and the dominance in our union and respect it enough to fight against what comes naturally.

And also, self centered though it may be, I enjoy this challenge and the knowledge I am doing something for him which brings him no end of pleasure and peace, and something no other ever has successfully done for him. To me it is the ultimate challenge and the ultimate high to know my particular submission brings him more pleasure than one where he was forever on guard because I was so submissive in nature I could or would not say no to anyone or anything without constant enforcement from him. Call him lazy, but I think it understandable he wants to know I submit to him because it is both my nature and my choice, and that he can rest easy I will challenge those parts of me which would drift aimlessly if I did not honour his ownership to the point I will repress what comes naturally to do what is expected in submission to this one.

Catalina

Catalina, the two of us may actually have more in common than i originally thought. this topic can be a very difficult one to discuss without hurting feelings or stepping on toes...had i read your words 3 years ago for instance....when i was newly a slave and still so unsure of myself in every way...i very likely would have concurred with you, would have said, "yes, submission by choice is much more valuable...fighting my natural submissive instinct would indeed mean more...that is how i should be"....and i would fall into a deep depression feeling that no way my Master could be happy with me as i am, feeling that i have been shorting him all along because i am giving him simply what comes naturally to me, and not something i must fight for and consciously control (yes, i was so emotionally fragile at that time that mere words typed by a stranger on the internet could produce such a reaction in me).

but, it is not 3 years ago, and i have grown in many ways. i have a bit of self-confidence now that i never had before...and more than that, a comfort in my own skin. all because i met this wonderful man, my Master, who loved me precisely as i was...submitting instinctively throughout life, never saying no...He saw a beauty in this where before i had always thought it a huge personality defect and something i desperately wished to change. He has taught me to like myself, to see a value in myself because he does.

but i can definitely understand what you are saying Catalina...in a way, it is "easier" (i put this in quotations because it is not exactly easy, but i think you understand) to go with one's instinctive reflex to submit, than it would be to go completely against that instinct and fight, for instance, or say "no way!". many many times in my life, while in the process of submitting to someone...whether it was doing the homework of classmates in school, or giving in to some man sexually...it would be a situation i truly with all my heart did not want to be in, with everything in my being i wanted to say, to scream, "no! do your own d*mn work for a change!" or "get off of me!!!"...as i had seen many other people do seemingly with ease and with no guilty feelings whatsoever. i would try to will myself to fight...to do something...anything...not to submit. i would get up the nerve to make up excuses, hoping the person would change their mind and just leave me alone. but my words never had the strength and force behind them for anyone to ever pay attention. so, in the end, i would give up that fight against my nature and just submit.

now in the D/s world, how on earth could such a personality trait be of benefit to a Master? a submissive who, once out of the protection of their Owner, could submit to absolutely anyone who demanded it of them? as you stated yourself, most Dominants want to know that their submissive, especially their slave, makes the conscious choice to submit to them, and likewise the conscious choice NOT to submit to others, unless expressly told to do so. that their slave's submission is a precious thing given to them only. i was fortunate enough to find a Master who found my submissive nature to be a precious, and rare thing, that he did not wish to change. He had no desire to condition me to fight this instinct, though it would indeed make life much easier for him as my Owner and therefore my protector. i have given him more than a few gray hairs.

three years ago, i was raped. a young man was going door to door in our neighborhood selling magazine subscriptions...it was in the early evening hours, and my Master was at the gym as was his usual regimen after work. the man knocked on our door, i answered, opening the door just enough to show my face and to say as politely as i could that we wouldn't be interested in any subscriptions. as he was giving me the usual salesman plea, i noticed him looking me over as much as possible in the 3 inch space, as well as looking over my head, as if to check whether i was in the house alone. i am well accustomed to seeing that "look" in a man's eyes, and when i saw it in his, i attempted to close the door. his foot was in the door, of course. he asked to be let inside, said something about finding me attractive. i said he could not come in, that he would have to leave, because my Father would be home from the gym any minute (letting him know that there was indeed a Man of the house, who worked out to boot, thinking it would dissuade him). of course this was a lie as i knew Daddy stayed at the gym precisely 2 and a half hours everyday, and it had only been barely an hour since he'd been there at that point. he kept trying to persuade me with words, more to distract me than anything else, while inch by inch shoving open the door (i had my full weight against it by then). i knew this guy would have probably left me alone immediately had i let out a loud scream, alerting the nearby neighbors. or if i had given him a good hard knee to the groin. but i do not have it in me to do those things, as much as i wished i did at that moment. so the inevitable happened...he came inside, shut the door, and raped me there on the foyer floor. when he left, i immediately called my Master. i couldn't describe the pain and overall headache that situation caused him....but rather than tell me, "sweet, you need to change. you have to fight against who you are so that you will not allow anything to happen i would not wish to happen". instead, a few new rules were added. i was never to answer the door again, not even for him. He would use his key, and anyone else would just have to leave us alone until he was home. my life, which was already limited, became even more restricted. for both my own safety and for Daddy's peace of mind. rather than view this as a burden, my Master saw this as yet more evidence of how much i needed him. of how utterly dependent i am upon him. and those things make him feel very good...very powerful in an almost God-like way. He says he loves knowing that he can leave me alone in a club for a few minutes, and when he returns some other man will be all over me, and i will just be putting up with it. He loves knowing that without his constant care and protection, i would crumble. His needs are probably the opposite of typical Dominants in that respect. He wants not only to be wanted by his property, but to be needed for that property's survival, in every way.

so, we have found what we need and desire in each other. for others, it would not work. any other Dominant may find my submission worthless. and i have reached a point in life where i can accept that...i would not be desired by most. that is okay. i am desired by the only One who truly matters, by He who owns me, and that is more than enough. and that's the important thing for us all really...finding our one, that will either accept us as we are, or accept us with a few "alterations". if you are happy in your place, wherever that may be, the opinions of others really do not matter so much.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Phoenix Stone, actually i have heard fairly often that i do not come across as submissive online.

This does not surprise (or dismay) me in the least.

i suppose that is because i have no problem expressing my opinions through this medium, and because i am not easily swayed to the opinion or beliefs of others. somehow, these traits are seen as unsubmissive. [/B]

sounds like yours is more of a physical submissiveness, than a mental one, then. You are not easily swayed, yet you must be locked in the house to keep you from physically submitting to other men, you said in an earlier thread. This submission you claim is natural to you. What are you thinking and feeling then, while this is happening? That it is natural? When you were raped did you grit your teeth, feel unswayed mentally? Or did it feel natural, did you go with the moment? Why is this, these arguments over the nature of submission, so different? That felt 'natural' for you to submit to, and apparently This, disagreement with your opinion, having a philosophical difference with you, does not. That these traits, not being easily swayed to the Opinion of others, can be seen by some as unsubmissive, seems to surprise you, and you do seem to be expressing disagreement with this view. Yet being easily swayed by Physical pressure you assume is a 'natural' trait of 'a submissive.' (and btw, no judgement in this, eh? I beg to differ.)

to be submissive is not to be mindless or witless, [/B]

Uh, are you claiming, or even presuming, that I ever stated or Feel otherwise??

though i would agree with you that part of being a submissive is giving in. the fact that i have strong beliefs and opinions and am able to express them via the written word, certainly does not mean that i do not "give in". but i suppose it's all a matter of perception. [/B]

No shit, Sherlock. It does truly seem to be a matter of perception. Yours is not better, or more true, than mine. Do I sound po'ed? I FEEL po'ed. You keep claiming a lack of judgementalness, while being (to my mind -- and at least a few others) judgemental. Now as a tolerant sort myself, , I feel that our current mania for tolerance above all else, should Surely extend to the Non-tolerant, as well. So, being a saintly type, I will try to be tolerant and non-judgemental about your judgementalness, but 'twill be hard! There -- did I succeed in being more non-judgemental than Thou?!

as for the need to serve...yes i suppose i would agree that that is part of being a submissive, but i would say this need to serve comes from the need to please...make others happy or feel good. and would again, apply to general life and not one limited facet of life, such as sexuality or a relationship. [/B]

Well, you sure didn't make ME happy or feel good, nor did you please me -- or does this only apply to MEN, preferably those who are trying to rape you? Or isn't a conversation part of life 'in general'?? Hmmmm??

Ps. I LIKE the fact that you stand up for yourself, go against group opinion etc. In fact, you strike me as rather WARRIOR-like in that regard.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

hypocrisy(sp?) bugs me

Ps. Lest anyone think I am insensitive to the Raped, let me add that I was raped quite a few times when i was young -- it stopped when I got Mean, like I am now.


(To be honest, I also got married and stopped dating. And no, they weren't all date-rapes.)

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, the two of us may actually have more in common than i originally thought.
so, we have found what we need and desire in each other. for others, it would not work. any other Dominant may find my submission worthless. and i have reached a point in life where i can accept that...i would not be desired by most. that is okay. i am desired by the only One who truly matters, by He who owns me, and that is more than enough. and that's the important thing for us all really...finding our one, that will either accept us as we are, or accept us with a few "alterations". if you are happy in your place, wherever that may be, the opinions of others really do not matter so much.

I'm not too sure about the first part....there are similarities, but also vast differences, but variety is always good. Your descriptions still do not really come across to me as much as a submissive personality as a damsel in distress persona which is not that uncommon, though more so in days gone past. Unless someone has a disorder which prevents them learning and using the skills we all learn to use to survive, I do not believe it is beyond them to make choices, especially where interpersonal relationships are concerned. I have worked with abused women to help them develop assertiveness, and though some had been through attempted murders, multiple rapes, childhood abuse, homelessness, and little education, none found it impossible to develop some skills once they stopped believing they had to remain a victim.

I am trying to understand osg, believe me, but I also am finding it difficult to fit the pieces together. It comes back to you saying you chose your Master over time and communication. Obviously you were not at that point under his protection, nor someone elses, yet you functioned and survived to a point you could take the time to get to know him and decide he was the one out of all the men who as you say can't leave you alone for five minutes. Your own words demonstrate at that point you were able to hold off the many and chose one. What changed? And how then if there has been a significant change in your ability to say no does that constitute a natural submissive personality? As you say though, you are both happy which is what matters for you, but others do become curious just as they do when they ask us to define certain aspects of our lifestyle. It actually helps me define for myself what I know but do not always analyse completely unless there comes a purpose.

Catalina

 

[Phoenix Stone]

but I still have a choice, just the choice to always be on guard and fight back is not what comes to me naturally, or what I find pleasant.....touch anyone I care for or even a stranger though and I am likely to come out fighting to protect them long before I would do the same for myself when unowned.
Catalina

Catalina, I found all of what you have to say quite interesting but just wanted to comment on this part. As someone who is out in the world, and who in reading on this forum keeps finding more and more she relates to about subbiness, a subbie nature, etc (believe it or not ) I wanted to share the roundabout way I learned to protect myself better (besides doing it for my husband's sake). It was to mentally look at myself like a stranger, realize that I Would do so much to help that stranger in trouble, and then ask why not protect myself like I would a stranger or a child? Why not protect the child in me? That little girl surely deserved protection. ANY little girl deserves protection.
I had to really look at myself from the outside to do this. Sort of close my eyes and hold my breath, iykwim. Then I took a Great self-defense class -- with my family's support -- and, with LOTS of help, fighting back got conditioned into me. It still takes mental effort and refreshing but it lets me relax and be myself in the world knowing i"ve been trained.
The other thing that helps, after the freeze instinct, is to Make myself yell, so that i hear it from the outside, as if it's from someone else. I"m a mom now, so it's especially important to me to be able to protect. But also, I know how bad those assaults were for me. I deserve better.

The other thing that lets me go ahead and hit is knowing I'm really doing the rapist a favor when I fight back. Better they should get stopped than go to jail, and better they should learn the answer is 'No!' even if I have to say no with my fist. It's not Good for a person to hurt others, to get away with doing bad. IT's bad for their soul. I'm not helping a rapist by getting raped. He will not learn from my gentleness, he'll only learn that it's ok, easy and fun to rape. This is no favor I've done him. So, yes, when I fight, I'm 'doing it for his own good.'
(Seriously, I've been able to use the training 3 times already -- once to fend off a dog and twice to stop domestic violence. The latter 2 weren't bdsm, btw. One was a neighbor who was going to throw his girlfriend out a 3rd story window, and the other was chasing a mom into her car, who was carrying her 2 small children at the time. It was clear first both times what was going on.)

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, I found all of what you have to say quite interesting but just wanted to comment on this part. As someone who is out in the world, and who in reading on this forum keeps finding more and more she relates to about subbiness, a subbie nature, etc (believe it or not ) I wanted to share the roundabout way I learned to protect myself better (besides doing it for my husband's sake). It was to mentally look at myself like a stranger, realize that I Would do so much to help that stranger in trouble, and then ask why not protect myself like I would a stranger or a child? Why not protect the child in me? That little girl surely deserved protection. ANY little girl deserves protection.

LOL, I hear what you are saying. When I was more out and about and working I managed to defend myself most times, but on reflection, most of the time I did that was because it was crucial I defend my position to enable others to be helped in a just way. I know I can do it if I need to, but it is not easy, and I don't come away feeling good. These days I use the thought it is my duty to protect Master's property at all costs, just as I would his car, house, belongings.

My problem with the world is more on a global scale in that it seems in our westernised reality at least, it is driven by greed and capitalist power, while worldwide it seems there are few places where violence does not seem to be seen as the answer to most problems, and lives expendable. Add to that we are destroying the earth and it all gets too much for me most times.

Catalina

 

[Phoenix Stone]

I have worked with abused women to help them develop assertiveness, and though some had been through attempted murders, multiple rapes, childhood abuse, homelessness, and little education, none found it impossible to develop some skills once they stopped believing they had to remain a victim.

Excuse me for stepping in here but I just wanted to say that this was me. Except, in a way, for that last line. It wasn't a 'victim mentality' that made those things happen in my case. Nor was it stopping believing that I had to remain a victim. Instead it was actually finding a self-defense class that was good enough and that Anyone could use. (The blind the deaf, women in their 80's....) And they had teachers who took it Sooo slowly and were like counselors. Anyway, I'd never have made it through a regular self-defense class or gotten anything out of it. But Impact works.

yet you finctioned and survived to a point you could take the time to get to know him and decide he was the one out of all the men who as you say can't leave you alone for five minutes. Your own words demonstrate at that point you were able to hold off the many and chose one. Catalina

My understanding of what she wrote was that it wasn't that she 'took the time' but that he was one of many she was sleeping with and over time she decided to accept him as her 'only.' And that she didn't then choose to 'hold off the many,' that HE did. Like the damsel in distress, he took her away from all this. If I sound a little snide, it's only because, unfortunately, I relate to her in this regard Too much.

 

[Caitlynne]

My understanding of what she wrote was that it wasn't that she 'took the time' but that he was one of many she was sleeping with and over time she decided to accept him as her 'only.' And that she didn't then choose to 'hold off the many,' that HE did. Like the damsel in distress, he took her away from all this. If I sound a little snide, it's only because, unfortunately, I relate to her in this regard Too much.

And I don't mean to be snide in asking the following questions. I am genuinely interested in the answers, because I still don't understand this fully.

If a submissive has no will of her own, no will to say no, then what power is she exchanging for the Dominance & Control of a Dominant?

And if she follows her own desires and submits when she feels the inclination, is she not following her own will--that of submitting?

And if such a submissive has no control whatsoever over the 'actions' of others upon her person....... what happens to the service, submission, gift, (whatever you want to call it) to her chosen Dominant?

How does this kind of situation foster a D/s relationship. How does a Top/Master/Dom ever gain control here?

It seems to me it is not submission at all, but a determined pursuit of what the person desires----To be on the bottom. Perhaps all the time, but whether or not it is submission is what I am having a problem with. Is it really? Or does it just look like it?

Here is my POV. If a dominant wanted his slave/sub to be made available to those *He* wished, then I can understand. Her submission is to His will and if by the same token it pleases her submissive nature, so much then better.

But if she cannot control her submission beyond that to her Master, who really has the power here? By that I mean to say, it seems the Dominant would be serving her needs primarily. Now if this is what he desires to do, OK.. I can get it. It seems a little backwards, but I can accept it as long as the Dominant truly wishes it to be this way.......

But if it is an adjustment to the submissive's behavior, then I see it as such a major adjustment as to fall way outside of the roles of D/s--it sounds more like S/m, with the master serving the needs of the Submissive. I find myself continually asking who has the control and power in such a relationship? Who serves who? Who submits to who?

People can call themselves whatever they want to, I have no objection nor do I think about it one way or the other. And if this arrangement makes both parties happy and fulfilled, then so be it. Wish that we could all say the same thing.

But I am at a loss to understand how all of this fits into the original divergence of opinion. i.e., that submissives would or would ask for and in what manner... And what constituted a submissive personality and a submissive within a D/s context.

While the illustration given of a basically 'no limits' submissive, one that for whatever reason will submit to anyone, doesn't bother me. I'm beginning to wonder how this isn't doing exactly what was stated she couldn't do. i.e. ask for her needs to be met.

Given the examples, she doesn't even ask, she just submits whenever and wherever the opportunity arises, which is apparently something she desires and she does what it takes to meet her desires. Which again is fine, I just can't seem to reconcile the statement that this kind of submission can't be controlled. That submission is so innate as to be impossible to control.........

And the fact that this kind of submissive would never ask for her needs to be met, when in fact this very behavior is always going to meet the needs of such an innately submissive person. She follows her own inclinations, so she meets her own needs, no need to ask anyone at all.

The two concepts seem to be contradictory in application. They appear to be aligned, but hey aren't.

Upon closer examination, while I respect the truth of the statement, I wonder if it is apparent that this kind of situation still is a 'topping from below' issue. The premise that something is done because 'one' cannot help oneself, basically is stating that because of this lack of control, that any and all acts are beyond the control of anyone.. They flow from the person at their own volition and are in fact not submissive acts at all. Like a 'twinkie defense'. I'm this way and I can't help it. Deal with it.

Sort of like a Top who is a masochist. It looks like the Top is on the bottom, but in all reality, he is being serviced, his will is still supreme.

This reminds me of something along those lines..... as if to say,........ "I am a submissive and I cannot and will not control that submission..... If you want me, you have to meet my needs for submission all the time, or I will submit to another... sorry, can't help myself.......

I know this sounds harsh.. And I don't mean it personally, some of the illustrations I used are extreme and not representational of what I think any one in this thread is doing. I sometimes go to extremes scenarios in order to 'get' what is being talked about...... this time it took me to some strange places...

But in the end I am still asking, who has the power and control in a situation like this? I feel like I'm hearing an old Abbott and Costello routine...... "Who's on Top?"

~ Cait

 

[sunfox]

Okay, I swore I wasn't going to comment on this thread because it has my back rather firmly up. But I had to come in and say

Brava, Cait. Well written.

Okay, I'm done now. Go back to your previously scheduled debate.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Caitlynne, of course I'm just guessing about her response but logically either she did choose or she didn't. So either Catalina's questions still stand or yours do, with the same problems intact in either case, (if that's clear at all.)

What i keep seeing is a lot of trying to have it both ways -- she can speak up to defend her ideas but can't speak up to defend her body. Not being able to defend her body and having to naturally submit is supposed to mean she is 'a submissive,' yet being able to defend her ideas (not having to naturally submit intellectually), has nothing to do with whether or not she's submissive and only means she's not witless. I suspect she's not bodiless, either. So why the will to use her mind (in the service of her own ideas) but no will to use her body?

One of several contradictions here.

(As to who's on top, how about this one: 'may I submit please Sir?' 'No, dammit, you're leading!') Easy for me to play this, cuz I'm not trying to prove to anybody that I'm subbie, let alone more subbie than thou. Don't know WHAT the heck I am -- and it's starting to not bother me, not knowing!

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Okay, I swore I wasn't going to comment on this thread because it has my back rather firmly up. But I had to come in and say

Brava, Cait. Well written.

Okay, I'm done now. Go back to your previously scheduled debate.

Aw heck! You didn't give ME any public bravas! Can I have one, please, Please?!
(Love your new sig line! See, I'll even give you one first, craven suckup that I am.)

whine pout

(btw, do subbies Hate being begged? I Love it. Love doing it, love getting it. but only when there's no whining involved, lol)

 

[catalina_francisco]

And I don't mean to be snide in asking the following questions. I am genuinely interested in the answers, because I still don't understand this fully.

While the illustration given of a basically 'no limits' submissive, one that for whatever reason will submit to anyone, doesn't bother me. I'm beginning to wonder how this isn't doing exactly what was stated she couldn't do. i.e. ask for her needs to be met.
~ Cait

I can identify with your confusion exactly Cait. The only thing I wanted to clarify, which probably doesn't need it anyway, is what a 'no limits' sub/slave usually is understood to mean. I am one, and from my understanding and his expectation, it means I personally have no limts except any he might impose from his own perspective and choices. It does not extend to submitting to others and exercising 'no limits' in that context, just with the one who owns me. Even in a sharing situation, he will impose limits, I and those involved are expected to honour irrespective of what I or they might think or want. I personally like having no limits, though admittedly I am not always able to fulfil his desire at every moment and sometimes need to prepare or try again, and even then might not succeed. I guess his main limit is I do not apply the 'no limits' criteria to my interaction with anyone but him.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Don't know WHAT the heck I am -- and it's starting to not bother me, not knowing!

LOL, go with what comes naturally when you let go, and what feels right for you. Is a recipe for bliss.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Self-Appointed Captain of the Bitchy Warrior Subs. Rawr.

OK, where do we sign up?!! Also do you know the true meaning of BITCH which was once shared with me by a secret society of warrior women? Babe In Total Control of Herself!!

Catalina