slave/sub requests

[Etoile]

IMHO, "no limits" can and should only be established within a relationship. "No limits" requires trust, and I don't see anybody trusting everybody. Even someone who accepts being raped as it's happening doesn't trust their attacker. While I have no limits as far as my Daddy is concerned, and while I would follow eir direction regarding other people, that is because I trust eir judgment about what other people e may choose to involve me/us with.

 

[Caitlynne]

I can identify with your confusion exactly Cait. The only thing I wanted to clarify, which probably doesn't need it anyway, is what a 'no limits' sub/slave usually is understood to mean. I am one, and from my understanding and his expectation, it means I personally have no limts except any he might impose from his own perspective and choices. It does not extend to submitting to others and exercising 'no limits' in that context, just with the one who owns me. Even in a sharing situation, he will impose limits, I and those involved are expected to honour irrespective of what I or they might think or want. I personally like having no limits, though admittedly I am not always able to fulfil his desire at every moment and sometimes need to prepare or try again, and even then might not succeed. I guess his main limit is I do not apply the 'no limits' criteria to my interaction with anyone but him.

Catalina

~smiles~ Yes, thank you for the clarification. NOT so much because I misunderstood, but because I was not clear when I used the phrase. I thank you for offering your view on it, and I agree completely with your definition of a 'no limit' sub.

I think the phrase just flowed out during writing because it represented something that you touched on in the last sentence of the post I quoted, and I had nothing else that even came close to what I was seeing. There seemed to be a 'no limit or no control' element to some of the comments. It sort of gave a whole new meaning to the concept of 'no boundaries'.

Once again, I thank you for clearing up my vagueness.

~ Cait

 

[Caitlynne]

Brava, Cait. Well written.

Why thank you, that's very kind of you.

 

[Bandit58]

Catalina, the two of us may actually have more in common than i originally thought. this topic can be a very difficult one to discuss without hurting feelings or stepping on toes...had i read your words 3 years ago for instance....when i was newly a slave and still so unsure of myself in every way...i very likely would have concurred with you, would have said, "yes, submission by choice is much more valuable...fighting my natural submissive instinct would indeed mean more...that is how i should be"....and i would fall into a deep depression feeling that no way my Master could be happy with me as i am, feeling that i have been shorting him all along because i am giving him simply what comes naturally to me, and not something i must fight for and consciously control (yes, i was so emotionally fragile at that time that mere words typed by a stranger on the internet could produce such a reaction in me).

but, it is not 3 years ago, and i have grown in many ways. i have a bit of self-confidence now that i never had before...and more than that, a comfort in my own skin. all because i met this wonderful man, my Master, who loved me precisely as i was...submitting instinctively throughout life, never saying no...He saw a beauty in this where before i had always thought it a huge personality defect and something i desperately wished to change. He has taught me to like myself, to see a value in myself because he does.

but i can definitely understand what you are saying Catalina...in a way, it is "easier" (i put this in quotations because it is not exactly easy, but i think you understand) to go with one's instinctive reflex to submit, than it would be to go completely against that instinct and fight, for instance, or say "no way!". many many times in my life, while in the process of submitting to someone...whether it was doing the homework of classmates in school, or giving in to some man sexually...it would be a situation i truly with all my heart did not want to be in, with everything in my being i wanted to say, to scream, "no! do your own d*mn work for a change!" or "get off of me!!!"...as i had seen many other people do seemingly with ease and with no guilty feelings whatsoever. i would try to will myself to fight...to do something...anything...not to submit. i would get up the nerve to make up excuses, hoping the person would change their mind and just leave me alone. but my words never had the strength and force behind them for anyone to ever pay attention. so, in the end, i would give up that fight against my nature and just submit.

now in the D/s world, how on earth could such a personality trait be of benefit to a Master? a submissive who, once out of the protection of their Owner, could submit to absolutely anyone who demanded it of them? as you stated yourself, most Dominants want to know that their submissive, especially their slave, makes the conscious choice to submit to them, and likewise the conscious choice NOT to submit to others, unless expressly told to do so. that their slave's submission is a precious thing given to them only. i was fortunate enough to find a Master who found my submissive nature to be a precious, and rare thing, that he did not wish to change. He had no desire to condition me to fight this instinct, though it would indeed make life much easier for him as my Owner and therefore my protector. i have given him more than a few gray hairs.

three years ago, i was raped. a young man was going door to door in our neighborhood selling magazine subscriptions...it was in the early evening hours, and my Master was at the gym as was his usual regimen after work. the man knocked on our door, i answered, opening the door just enough to show my face and to say as politely as i could that we wouldn't be interested in any subscriptions. as he was giving me the usual salesman plea, i noticed him looking me over as much as possible in the 3 inch space, as well as looking over my head, as if to check whether i was in the house alone. i am well accustomed to seeing that "look" in a man's eyes, and when i saw it in his, i attempted to close the door. his foot was in the door, of course. he asked to be let inside, said something about finding me attractive. i said he could not come in, that he would have to leave, because my Father would be home from the gym any minute (letting him know that there was indeed a Man of the house, who worked out to boot, thinking it would dissuade him). of course this was a lie as i knew Daddy stayed at the gym precisely 2 and a half hours everyday, and it had only been barely an hour since he'd been there at that point. he kept trying to persuade me with words, more to distract me than anything else, while inch by inch shoving open the door (i had my full weight against it by then). i knew this guy would have probably left me alone immediately had i let out a loud scream, alerting the nearby neighbors. or if i had given him a good hard knee to the groin. but i do not have it in me to do those things, as much as i wished i did at that moment. so the inevitable happened...he came inside, shut the door, and raped me there on the foyer floor. when he left, i immediately called my Master. i couldn't describe the pain and overall headache that situation caused him....but rather than tell me, "sweet, you need to change. you have to fight against who you are so that you will not allow anything to happen i would not wish to happen". instead, a few new rules were added. i was never to answer the door again, not even for him. He would use his key, and anyone else would just have to leave us alone until he was home. my life, which was already limited, became even more restricted. for both my own safety and for Daddy's peace of mind. rather than view this as a burden, my Master saw this as yet more evidence of how much i needed him. of how utterly dependent i am upon him. and those things make him feel very good...very powerful in an almost God-like way. He says he loves knowing that he can leave me alone in a club for a few minutes, and when he returns some other man will be all over me, and i will just be putting up with it. He loves knowing that without his constant care and protection, i would crumble. His needs are probably the opposite of typical Dominants in that respect. He wants not only to be wanted by his property, but to be needed for that property's survival, in every way.

so, we have found what we need and desire in each other. for others, it would not work. any other Dominant may find my submission worthless. and i have reached a point in life where i can accept that...i would not be desired by most. that is okay. i am desired by the only One who truly matters, by He who owns me, and that is more than enough. and that's the important thing for us all really...finding our one, that will either accept us as we are, or accept us with a few "alterations". if you are happy in your place, wherever that may be, the opinions of others really do not matter so much.

osg, what would happen to you if (god forbid) something happened to your Master? Would you, could you, be able to take care of yourself? Do you have money you could call on immediately, can you drive, do you have any job skills.....????

I ask this only because I see something developing like what happened to my mother when my father had a brain bleed and was seriously ill for months and almost died. He was always the one who looked after her, paid the bills, fixed everything.....and when he wasn't there she fell apart. After he recovered she made sure she had a joint signature on the cheque account, that she had a credit card, but she never learned to drive and it's a thing she has regretted many times. They are elderly and on pensions now but I wonder what would have happened to her if Dad had died much earlier and she had to cope alone

I am not a slave nor even 24/7 submissive, I made the choice to submit to Master and only to Him. I used to be picked on at school too and stayed in an emotionally abusive marriage for 23 years before I got up the courage to say "enough". In the past two years I've learned to stand up for myself. I have money of my own, I can drive, I have skills so I can get a job. Master's health is not good so I know that one day I will be on my own again. It is something I don't like to think about but I must face facts. Hopefully we will have years together but there's no guarantee......so I am prepared......

 

[redelicious]

*really great post here*

~ Cait

Wow, just when I thought it was safe to lurk. I'm going to have to re-read that a couple of times so it will sink in. Very thought provoking, thank you.

 

[sunfox]

Aw heck! You didn't give ME any public bravas! Can I have one, please, Please?!
(Love your new sig line! See, I'll even give you one first, craven suckup that I am.)

whine pout

(btw, do subbies Hate being begged? I Love it. Love doing it, love getting it. but only when there's no whining involved, lol)

*Bravas for Phoenix too!*

I love being begged, but I hate whining *peer* I may have to swat you for that one. *gets out her riding whip*

Originally posted by Catalina_Francisco
OK, where do we sign up?!! Also do you know the true meaning of BITCH which was once shared with me by a secret society of warrior women? Babe In Total Control of Herself!!

Catalina

Now accepting applications for the bargain, limited time only price of one kiss for the Captain!

I totally agree I am the control freak around here nearly as much as he is.. I keep the house running smoothly. He'd definitely agree with that definition, Catalina.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I'm not too sure about the first part....there are similarities, but also vast differences, but variety is always good. Your descriptions still do not really come across to me as much as a submissive personality as a damsel in distress persona which is not that uncommon, though more so in days gone past. Unless someone has a disorder which prevents them learning and using the skills we all learn to use to survive, I do not believe it is beyond them to make choices, especially where interpersonal relationships are concerned. I have worked with abused women to help them develop assertiveness, and though some had been through attempted murders, multiple rapes, childhood abuse, homelessness, and little education, none found it impossible to develop some skills once they stopped believing they had to remain a victim.

I am trying to understand osg, believe me, but I also am finding it difficult to fit the pieces together. It comes back to you saying you chose your Master over time and communication. Obviously you were not at that point under his protection, nor someone elses, yet you functioned and survived to a point you could take the time to get to know him and decide he was the one out of all the men who as you say can't leave you alone for five minutes. Your own words demonstrate at that point you were able to hold off the many and chose one. What changed? And how then if there has been a significant change in your ability to say no does that constitute a natural submissive personality? As you say though, you are both happy which is what matters for you, but others do become curious just as they do when they ask us to define certain aspects of our lifestyle. It actually helps me define for myself what I know but do not always analyse completely unless there comes a purpose.

Catalina

Catalina, this is all very, very difficult to put into words. something that i find so simple, so clear, yet i am not having much success expressing it here. but i can try my best....now, you said that my personality traits seem to be more "damsel in distress" than submissive. perhaps you feel that way because i state so many examples of abuse or other negativity because of my submissive nature. but i am not always "in distress". submitting is not always a traumatic event for me, obviously. sometimes i submit, and i will very much WANT to submit. will feel very good about it. but with me, whether i wish to submit or not, i submit all the same. even my Master has told me that he sometimes has a difficult time knowing when i am enthusiastic about serving him, or when i am doing so with sadness or other ill feelings in my heart. because, either way, my submission is the same.


now, about choosing my Master. this is something i tried once before, unsuccessfully, to explain to you on this board. yes, i very much chose to give myself to my Master. mySELF, which is different than giving him my submission. my submission is a given, i cannot help but to give that. but my whole self...meaning, my heart, my soul, control over my physical self...everything i am in the present and will be in the future....that is something i indeed had the power to give, had the ability to choose to give. yes, i was functioning before i met my Master, before i became his. not in a healthy way by any means however...financially, i survived because i was always dependent on one man or another. i was never able to hold down a job for more than a couple of months, and was never a financially independent person. but then also you have to remember i was still a teenager when i met Daddy and became his, so my situation was not entirely unique for someone my age. i was just drifting thru life, with no actual goals or dreams, just clinging on to life because of a tiny glimmer of hope, that maybe one day i would have a reason to wake up in the mornings. when Daddy came into my life and we became friends, and then something much much more...i did not have to "hold off" any others. first, no one else desired me for their own. to use me, yes, but that is all. and Daddy very quickly took control of my life and my movements...he did not wish me to continue seeing anyone from my life before him, so one by one he would erase these people from my life. maybe he would reply to their emails they would send me, and in my voice, say i could never see them again. or maybe he would have my telephone number changed. besides, he occupied so much of my time, there was no room for anyone else really. so, it was never a matter of me stopping anyone else from using me, but simply a matter of my Master taking control quickly.

as for a significant change in my personality, in my submissive nature to be specific...there has been none. i still have not learned how to say "no"...i still have not learned how to fight back. but these are things my Master does not wish me to learn, because he loves me as i am.

 

[ownedsubgal]

osg, what would happen to you if (god forbid) something happened to your Master? Would you, could you, be able to take care of yourself? Do you have money you could call on immediately, can you drive, do you have any job skills.....????

I ask this only because I see something developing like what happened to my mother when my father had a brain bleed and was seriously ill for months and almost died. He was always the one who looked after her, paid the bills, fixed everything.....and when he wasn't there she fell apart. After he recovered she made sure she had a joint signature on the cheque account, that she had a credit card, but she never learned to drive and it's a thing she has regretted many times. They are elderly and on pensions now but I wonder what would have happened to her if Dad had died much earlier and she had to cope alone

I am not a slave nor even 24/7 submissive, I made the choice to submit to Master and only to Him. I used to be picked on at school too and stayed in an emotionally abusive marriage for 23 years before I got up the courage to say "enough". In the past two years I've learned to stand up for myself. I have money of my own, I can drive, I have skills so I can get a job. Master's health is not good so I know that one day I will be on my own again. It is something I don't like to think about but I must face facts. Hopefully we will have years together but there's no guarantee......so I am prepared......

Bandit...one thing we have in common...i too hate thinking about the "what if?"...what if something happens to Daddy? what will i do? what will become of me? if i thought about such things too much i wouldn't be able to function, wouldn't be able to enjoy what we have or see the beauty in us, because i would have so much dread of the potential future. to answer the question, i just don't know. don't know what i would do, don't know how i would go on or why. i truly would see no reason, no purpose in my existence anymore. after all, my life's purpose now is serving him. if he is gone...there is no more need for me. so no, i do not see myself surviving without my Master. primarily because i would lack the will to survive without him. as for the resources of life...working, driving, money...i do have secretarial-type job skills...beyond those, no. i do not know how to drive. and i do not have money of my own obviously, as i am a slave. but i do know that my Master has taken measures to have me well provided for should something happen to him. i view this as a waste of his time, energy and money as i don't see myself sticking around without him here to love and serve. but he is far more practical than i and makes arrangements for such things.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

. because he loves me as i am.

And that's beautiful. This post, you sounded honest to me, and I'm honestly feeling touched by you here. Just wanted you to know. (It probably won't come out right but I mean this in a good way, and thank you.)

Ps

 

[ownedsubgal]

my responses are beside the arrows:

And I don't mean to be snide in asking the following questions. I am genuinely interested in the answers, because I still don't understand this fully.

If a submissive has no will of her own, no will to say no, then what power is she exchanging for the Dominance & Control of a Dominant?

>>>this is precisely why my Master and i do not refer to our particular union as TPE, because really there was no power exchange. i never had the kind of power most are referring to when they speak of a power exchange. i gave him control over something which previously simply ran amuck, like a chicken with it's head cut off.


And if she follows her own desires and submits when she feels the inclination, is she not following her own will--that of submitting?

>>>here you are making the assumption that i submit because i desire to do so. i have stated many times, i do not submit because i want to or because it makes me feel good...i often do not want to and it often does not feel good. something coming naturally does not make it necessarily pleasant, or what one desires.

And if such a submissive has no control whatsoever over the 'actions' of others upon her person....... what happens to the service, submission, gift, (whatever you want to call it) to her chosen Dominant?

How does this kind of situation foster a D/s relationship. How does a Top/Master/Dom ever gain control here?

>>>by being a loving yet strong, powerful Dominant who can take control of such a submissive's life entirely.

It seems to me it is not submission at all, but a determined pursuit of what the person desires----To be on the bottom. Perhaps all the time, but whether or not it is submission is what I am having a problem with. Is it really? Or does it just look like it?

>>>>again, for me personally, submission is not about what i desire.

Here is my POV. If a dominant wanted his slave/sub to be made available to those *He* wished, then I can understand. Her submission is to His will and if by the same token it pleases her submissive nature, so much then better.

But if she cannot control her submission beyond that to her Master, who really has the power here? By that I mean to say, it seems the Dominant would be serving her needs primarily. Now if this is what he desires to do, OK.. I can get it. It seems a little backwards, but I can accept it as long as the Dominant truly wishes it to be this way.......

>>>>i cannot control my submission, but my Master can control ME. He can make it so not another human being on the planet ever sets eyes on me again beyond himself....or he can make it so any and everyone who wishes to "sample" what is his may do so, with no restrictions. He has all the power. i never had the power, even before becoming property.

But if it is an adjustment to the submissive's behavior, then I see it as such a major adjustment as to fall way outside of the roles of D/s--it sounds more like S/m, with the master serving the needs of the Submissive. I find myself continually asking who has the control and power in such a relationship? Who serves who? Who submits to who?

>>>>who submits to who? i submit to my Master. He does not submit to me in any way. by loving and accepting me as i am, he is not saying, "oh, you are free to do what you want however you want, i will just deal with it." first, i must state once again that submitting for me is not about doing something i wish to do. my Master actually fulfills my needs (my needs for survival and sanity) much more by restricting and limiting my submission in the ways he does.

People can call themselves whatever they want to, I have no objection nor do I think about it one way or the other. And if this arrangement makes both parties happy and fulfilled, then so be it. Wish that we could all say the same thing.

But I am at a loss to understand how all of this fits into the original divergence of opinion. i.e., that submissives would or would ask for and in what manner... And what constituted a submissive personality and a submissive within a D/s context.

While the illustration given of a basically 'no limits' submissive, one that for whatever reason will submit to anyone, doesn't bother me. I'm beginning to wonder how this isn't doing exactly what was stated she couldn't do. i.e. ask for her needs to be met.

Given the examples, she doesn't even ask, she just submits whenever and wherever the opportunity arises, which is apparently something she desires and she does what it takes to meet her desires. Which again is fine, I just can't seem to reconcile the statement that this kind of submission can't be controlled. That submission is so innate as to be impossible to control.........

And the fact that this kind of submissive would never ask for her needs to be met, when in fact this very behavior is always going to meet the needs of such an innately submissive person. She follows her own inclinations, so she meets her own needs, no need to ask anyone at all.

The two concepts seem to be contradictory in application. They appear to be aligned, but hey aren't.

Upon closer examination, while I respect the truth of the statement, I wonder if it is apparent that this kind of situation still is a 'topping from below' issue. The premise that something is done because 'one' cannot help oneself, basically is stating that because of this lack of control, that any and all acts are beyond the control of anyone.. They flow from the person at their own volition and are in fact not submissive acts at all. Like a 'twinkie defense'. I'm this way and I can't help it. Deal with it.

Sort of like a Top who is a masochist. It looks like the Top is on the bottom, but in all reality, he is being serviced, his will is still supreme.

This reminds me of something along those lines..... as if to say,........ "I am a submissive and I cannot and will not control that submission..... If you want me, you have to meet my needs for submission all the time, or I will submit to another... sorry, can't help myself.......


>>>>it is definitely not like that. yes, i am a submissive, and i cannot control that. "will not"?? i would never say or think such a thing. it is not about "will". because it's something beyond my control, beyond my power entirely. do i expect someone to accept this, to just take care of me and love me as i am? not at all. i used to be absolutely positive that no man would ever want me to be his, and more than that, i felt very strongly that every man deserved something far better than the very little i had to offer. in my eyes, i was not and could never be good enough for anyone. but Daddy came into my life and showed me differently.

I know this sounds harsh.. And I don't mean it personally, some of the illustrations I used are extreme and not representational of what I think any one in this thread is doing. I sometimes go to extremes scenarios in order to 'get' what is being talked about...... this time it took me to some strange places...

But in the end I am still asking, who has the power and control in a situation like this? I feel like I'm hearing an old Abbott and Costello routine...... "Who's on Top?"

~ Cait

>>>who's on top? He is, always has been, always will be.

 

[Esclava]

Respondents of the thread, I THANK YOU!

I have read, laughed, pondered, and applauded each and every response. I have also learned much about the ways and thoughts of the many types of submissives which abound in our world of BDSM. My sincerest, heartfelt thanks goes out to you all.

Honestly, I do wear that Babe In Total Control of Herself label VERY clearly. Brandish it like a badge of honor, I do.

But seriously, I have seen the pain revealed and I, too, have had my share. When my former Dom began to hurt me without concern for my safety, I became rebellious. I fought him and he hurt me more, but I found I could endure the painful punishment if I knew he was having to fight me tooth and nail to deliver it. I still considered myself submissive because I had given to him the power to dominate me - not knowing that he hid the deep secret of his sadistic nature. When it began to show up, I asked him about it and was beaten unmercifully. From that day forward, I fought him, not fist fighting, but I made him WORK for everything he wanted from me. I never gave in easily - if I was going to be in pain for something, then damn it, I was not giving him what he wanted easily. I refused to be a victim, but being such a new sub, I didn't know how to get out of it - so, for two years, I endured it.

When he received a job transfer, he asked me to go with him. I told him that I couldn't take my children from the state, away from my family and if he went and found that it was some place he believed was better for us, then I would follow him. Fortunately, for me, he decided I would not like Wisconsin and it would better for him to release me and allow me to continue with my life. I have now spent the better part of 10 years without a Dom, but I never thought I wanted to be dominated or owned ever again.

Was my submissive nature/spirit at fault for the horrific situation I was in? Was it my submissive Warrior traits that salvaged my sanity? Now, I'm asking for feedback about myself - and you may feel free to address it from any perspective you wish.

(The happy ending is that my inner submissive servant has been re-awakened and I am seeking to respond to her desire to be a true servant - not a rebellious one. I am still without a physical Master, but I serve One online who encourages me as I search for One in r/l to replace him.)

Esclava

 

[slave to pain]

Thank you for the responses! I hear that the desired request is granted at the Master's/Dom's pleasure - ALWAYS.

If the slave had been disobedient and spanking was the "normal" punishment for such, what might some other penalties be in lieu of a spanking or belting?

Esclava

I especially like tickling. While it may not sound fiendish, my sub is extremely ticklish and hates feet being tickled. So when he's been bad, he is restrained and feverishly tickled. This has the desired affect!

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, this is all very, very difficult to put into words. something that i find so simple, so clear, yet i am not having much success expressing it here. but i can try my best....now, you said that my personality traits seem to be more "damsel in distress" than submissive. perhaps you feel that way because i state so many examples of abuse or other negativity because of my submissive nature. but i am not always "in distress".

No, not so. As I said, I do not equate that to a submissive personality. The damsel in distress actually came to me as some of your descriptions of your delicacy and sheer inability to say no and protect yourself in any manner, reminded me of an incident with my cousin. He had a partner he was living with and on my first visit to them after their setting up house together I was amused to see how she played her game to the hilt, and he being a male with an ego which liked to feel he was the all protective, macho male, fell for it hook, line, and sinker. We were about to sit down and have a coffee and he apologetically jumped out of the chair he has just sat in to rush to her side where she stood looking helpless beside her chair. He went on to explain to the rest of us how helpless his new girl really was, so helpless it was physically impossible for her to move the chair alone to sit down and had to wait for him to do it always. She also had him believing everytime she went to the corner store every male in a 5 km vicinity came running trying to get her into bed and she was so scared she trembled. He believed that too.

I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt. Interestingly, when I dropped by one day while he was at work, she pulled out her own chair with no problem or thought (and these were the only chairs in the house at the time so I don't know where he thought she sat all day home alone). She also took a couple of calls from men while I was there, flirting with them blatently (even with her blinking her lashes and body language they could not see through the phone), then telling me she just could not understand why men would not leave her alone. Even more interestingly, though she was relatively attractive, I had never seen a woman, no matter how beautiful, beseiged by men anywhere I had been unless she advertised she was more than willing and able....when the relationship ended, it was not pretty. He came home to an empty house, all his belongings removed right down to personal photos from his family and life, and found she had not only moved in with someone else (male), but she had been happily fucking men behind his back for months in their bed while he worked. Even after this he took a long time to realise she was not a damsel in distress and was just as capable of saying no and functioning normally as the next person, she just chose not to as it fed her needs to behave in this way.

As to issues of abuse....they do not generally occur because a woman is so submissive in nature...they usually occur because a woman is afraid, embarrassed, forced, believes she deserves it, or is unworthy of being treated with respect.....that is not a submissive nature which is making her submit.

now, about choosing my Master. this is something i tried once before, unsuccessfully, to explain to you on this board. yes, i very much chose to give myself to my Master. mySELF, which is different than giving him my submission. my submission is a given, i cannot help but to give that. but my whole self...meaning, my heart, my soul, control over my physical self...everything i am in the present and will be in the future....that is something i indeed had the power to give, had the ability to choose to give.

Now maybe you are beginning to demonstrate the difficulty some are having understanding, or the reason, or so I thought. I began to think it was about your particular definition of the word submission which was causing the confusion. In part from this statement I can see it is. But then you declare it was a choice you made to give your whole, including control of your physical self to your Master, which in translation again says you were capable of saying no, making choices, until you felt the time was right....which negates the assertion you make that at no point in your life have you been able to say no, nor will you ever be able to learn how to do so, thus you are prey for everyone who crosses your path unless you have a protector by your side.

yes, i was functioning before i met my Master, before i became his. not in a healthy way by any means however...financially, i survived because i was always dependent on one man or another. i was never able to hold down a job for more than a couple of months, and was never a financially independent person. but then also you have to remember i was still a teenager when i met Daddy and became his, so my situation was not entirely unique for someone my age. i was just drifting thru life, with no actual goals or dreams, just clinging on to life because of a tiny glimmer of hope, that maybe one day i would have a reason to wake up in the mornings. [/B}

Though as you say, this mentality can be relevant to teenagers, it is still not a submissive personality, nor necessary to be a submissive.

when Daddy came into my life and we became friends, and then something much much more...i did not have to "hold off" any others. first, no one else desired me for their own. to use me, yes, but that is all.

If they wanted to use you, wouldn't it stand to reason just as now you have men flocking to have the same priviledge whenever they see your Master leave you alone for a minute of two, they would have been doing the same then and you would have had to hold some of them off at least? I actually think it would have been more of an issue than if they had been wanting to make you their own simply because it usually means their mindset does not easily accept no as an option.

and Daddy very quickly took control of my life and my movements...he did not wish me to continue seeing anyone from my life before him, so one by one he would erase these people from my life. maybe he would reply to their emails they would send me, and in my voice, say i could never see them again. or maybe he would have my telephone number changed. besides, he occupied so much of my time, there was no room for anyone else really. so, it was never a matter of me stopping anyone else from using me, but simply a matter of my Master taking control quickly.

True in part, but once again, where is it that you submitted due to your submissive nature? Someone taking control of another does not necessarily equate to the person having a submissive nature, especially in cases of abuse which is usually where someone moves in and begins to isolate the person from anyone else who may interfere. And as you said in your reply to Cait, which seemed to be another contradiction...."i must state once again that submitting for me is not about doing something i wish to do. my Master actually fulfills my needs (my needs for survival and sanity) much more by restricting and limiting my submission in the ways he does. " ...you say you do not wish to submit, have said it is all for his pleasure and fulfillment, actually sound as if you are using him, then say he fulfils your needs..which I think Cait was trying to point out. Isn't that getting something out of your submission for you? The words of Dr. Phil keep playing in my head here right now..."Girl, be honest....what are you getting out of this?" As he says, no-one can convince him anyone does anything without expecting something in return..they don't do anything for nothing. And you have both verified and denied this in just 2 sentences!! I am getting really confused.

You say you never dreamed anyone would care, so obviously somewhere in your soul you wished they would. You say you are 100% submissive to him, honour and respect him, value his dominance, abide by his every wish and command just to please him, and yet in your answer to Bandit you speak of how you see his efforts to provide for you if something happens to him as a waste of his time and energy. I don't see a reflection of respect or submission in that as much as disrespect, but that may be just my concept based on my own experience and feelings. I find myself questioning it in this manner.....if we accept them as Masters, we say they own us 100%, they choose to provide for us after they are gone so it is obviously their wish we continue on, do we then have the right to judge it as a waste of time and already before the fact, basically decide we won't be sticking around to live out the life they chose for us?

Don't get me wrong...I too cannot bear thinking of my life without Master, but I know he would wish me to go on, to make him proud always, as obviously yours does too. It sounds very tragic and beautiful in a melodramatic sense to come over as not having anything to live for, but it also comes back to the 'wipe the brow with a sigh, damsel in distress' vision again, not the natural submissive with a submissive personality you keep saying is responsible for all you are. Guess in all fairness it depends how you submit or view that submission, and where it begins and ends. As you say we differ in that in many ways, not better or worse, but vastly different.

as for a significant change in my personality, in my submissive nature to be specific...there has been none. i still have not learned how to say "no"...i still have not learned how to fight back. but these are things my Master does not wish me to learn, because he loves me as i am.

It is good he loves you as you are, but I am still confused as I see many ways in which you say no, just they are selective, and not always obvious. By choosing your Master you were passively saying 'no' to others. From what you say, it was obvious he would not tolerate others monopolising your time and energy without his approval...in accepting him you were also accepting that rule and though you relied on him to do the severing of previous relationships, you were still making that choice to say no to them, just choosing another to deliver the message.

I have no issue with how you choose to live your life, or what makes it for you, but I admit I have a problem with contradictions I don't understand as they nag at my brain and that is why I seek to understand if they are contradictions, or just I am missing understanding the whole thing from another's perspective. Is how I learn and grow. I don't share your belief you live a life far removed from others on the forum, or you are the most extreme for what that is worth, but I do believe you like to portray that image. I am still confused and befuddled, but am really trying to keep an open mind. Maybe it is just one of those things which will never be resolved.

Catalina

 

[shyly curious]

Catalina, this is all very, very difficult to put into words. something that i find so simple, so clear, yet i am not having much success expressing it here. but i can try my best....now, you said that my personality traits seem to be more "damsel in distress" than submissive. perhaps you feel that way because i state so many examples of abuse or other negativity because of my submissive nature. but i am not always "in distress".

<snip ...

It is good he loves you as you are, but I am still confused as I see many ways in which you say no, just they are selective, and not always obvious. By choosing your Master you were passively saying 'no' to others. From what you say, it was obvious he would not tolerate others monopolising your time and energy without his approval...in accepting him you were also accepting that rule and though you relied on him to do the severing of previous relationships, you were still making that choice to say no to them, just choosing another to deliver the message.

I have no issue with how you choose to live your life, or what makes it for you, but I admit I have a problem with contradictions I don't understand as they nag at my brain and that is why I seek to understand if they are contradictions, or just I am missing understanding the whole thing from another's perspective. Is how I learn and grow. I don't share your belief you live a life far removed from others on the forum, or you are the most extreme for what that is worth, but I do believe you like to portray that image. I am still confused and befuddled, but am really trying to keep an open mind. Maybe it is just one of those things which will never be resolved.
...snip>

Catalina

i thought i was the only one confused by the seeming contradictions here.

i too do not care how one lives their life, but coherent consistent descriptions make understanding it so much easier.

be well all, shy

 

[ownedsubgal]

Catalina, this is all very, very difficult to put into words. something that i find so simple, so clear, yet i am not having much success expressing it here. but i can try my best....now, you said that my personality traits seem to be more "damsel in distress" than submissive. perhaps you feel that way because i state so many examples of abuse or other negativity because of my submissive nature. but i am not always "in distress".

No, not so. As I said, I do not equate that to a submissive personality. The damsel in distress actually came to me as some of your descriptions of your delicacy and sheer inability to say no and protect yourself in any manner, reminded me of an incident with my cousin. He had a partner he was living with and on my first visit to them after their setting up house together I was amused to see how she played her game to the hilt, and he being a male with an ego which liked to feel he was the all protective, macho male, fell for it hook, line, and sinker. We were about to sit down and have a coffee and he apologetically jumped out of the chair he has just sat in to rush to her side where she stood looking helpless beside her chair. He went on to explain to the rest of us how helpless his new girl really was, so helpless it was physically impossible for her to move the chair alone to sit down and had to wait for him to do it always. She also had him believing everytime she went to the corner store every male in a 5 km vicinity came running trying to get her into bed and she was so scared she trembled. He believed that too.

I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt. Interestingly, when I dropped by one day while he was at work, she pulled out her own chair with no problem or thought (and these were the only chairs in the house at the time so I don't know where he thought she sat all day home alone). She also took a couple of calls from men while I was there, flirting with them blatently (even with her blinking her lashes and body language they could not see through the phone), then telling me she just could not understand why men would not leave her alone. Even more interestingly, though she was relatively attractive, I had never seen a woman, no matter how beautiful, beseiged by men anywhere I had been unless she advertised she was more than willing and able....when the relationship ended, it was not pretty. He came home to an empty house, all his belongings removed right down to personal photos from his family and life, and found she had not only moved in with someone else (male), but she had been happily fucking men behind his back for months in their bed while he worked. Even after this he took a long time to realise she was not a damsel in distress and was just as capable of saying no and functioning normally as the next person, she just chose not to as it fed her needs to behave in this way.

As to issues of abuse....they do not generally occur because a woman is so submissive in nature...they usually occur because a woman is afraid, embarrassed, forced, believes she deserves it, or is unworthy of being treated with respect.....that is not a submissive nature which is making her submit.

now, about choosing my Master. this is something i tried once before, unsuccessfully, to explain to you on this board. yes, i very much chose to give myself to my Master. mySELF, which is different than giving him my submission. my submission is a given, i cannot help but to give that. but my whole self...meaning, my heart, my soul, control over my physical self...everything i am in the present and will be in the future....that is something i indeed had the power to give, had the ability to choose to give.

Now maybe you are beginning to demonstrate the difficulty some are having understanding, or the reason, or so I thought. I began to think it was about your particular definition of the word submission which was causing the confusion. In part from this statement I can see it is. But then you declare it was a choice you made to give your whole, including control of your physical self to your Master, which in translation again says you were capable of saying no, making choices, until you felt the time was right....which negates the assertion you make that at no point in your life have you been able to say no, nor will you ever be able to learn how to do so, thus you are prey for everyone who crosses your path unless you have a protector by your side.

yes, i was functioning before i met my Master, before i became his. not in a healthy way by any means however...financially, i survived because i was always dependent on one man or another. i was never able to hold down a job for more than a couple of months, and was never a financially independent person. but then also you have to remember i was still a teenager when i met Daddy and became his, so my situation was not entirely unique for someone my age. i was just drifting thru life, with no actual goals or dreams, just clinging on to life because of a tiny glimmer of hope, that maybe one day i would have a reason to wake up in the mornings. [/B}

Though as you say, this mentality can be relevant to teenagers, it is still not a submissive personality, nor necessary to be a submissive.

when Daddy came into my life and we became friends, and then something much much more...i did not have to "hold off" any others. first, no one else desired me for their own. to use me, yes, but that is all.

If they wanted to use you, wouldn't it stand to reason just as now you have men flocking to have the same priviledge whenever they see your Master leave you alone for a minute of two, they would have been doing the same then and you would have had to hold some of them off at least? I actually think it would have been more of an issue than if they had been wanting to make you their own simply because it usually means their mindset does not easily accept no as an option.

and Daddy very quickly took control of my life and my movements...he did not wish me to continue seeing anyone from my life before him, so one by one he would erase these people from my life. maybe he would reply to their emails they would send me, and in my voice, say i could never see them again. or maybe he would have my telephone number changed. besides, he occupied so much of my time, there was no room for anyone else really. so, it was never a matter of me stopping anyone else from using me, but simply a matter of my Master taking control quickly.

True in part, but once again, where is it that you submitted due to your submissive nature? Someone taking control of another does not necessarily equate to the person having a submissive nature, especially in cases of abuse which is usually where someone moves in and begins to isolate the person from anyone else who may interfere. And as you said in your reply to Cait, which seemed to be another contradiction...."i must state once again that submitting for me is not about doing something i wish to do. my Master actually fulfills my needs (my needs for survival and sanity) much more by restricting and limiting my submission in the ways he does. " ...you say you do not wish to submit, have said it is all for his pleasure and fulfillment, actually sound as if you are using him, then say he fulfils your needs..which I think Cait was trying to point out. Isn't that getting something out of your submission for you? The words of Dr. Phil keep playing in my head here right now..."Girl, be honest....what are you getting out of this?" As he says, no-one can convince him anyone does anything without expecting something in return..they don't do anything for nothing. And you have both verified and denied this in just 2 sentences!! I am getting really confused.

You say you never dreamed anyone would care, so obviously somewhere in your soul you wished they would. You say you are 100% submissive to him, honour and respect him, value his dominance, abide by his every wish and command just to please him, and yet in your answer to Bandit you speak of how you see his efforts to provide for you if something happens to him as a waste of his time and energy. I don't see a reflection of respect or submission in that as much as disrespect, but that may be just my concept based on my own experience and feelings. I find myself questioning it in this manner.....if we accept them as Masters, we say they own us 100%, they choose to provide for us after they are gone so it is obviously their wish we continue on, do we then have the right to judge it as a waste of time and already before the fact, basically decide we won't be sticking around to live out the life they chose for us?

Don't get me wrong...I too cannot bear thinking of my life without Master, but I know he would wish me to go on, to make him proud always, as obviously yours does too. It sounds very tragic and beautiful in a melodramatic sense to come over as not having anything to live for, but it also comes back to the 'wipe the brow with a sigh, damsel in distress' vision again, not the natural submissive with a submissive personality you keep saying is responsible for all you are. Guess in all fairness it depends how you submit or view that submission, and where it begins and ends. As you say we differ in that in many ways, not better or worse, but vastly different.

as for a significant change in my personality, in my submissive nature to be specific...there has been none. i still have not learned how to say "no"...i still have not learned how to fight back. but these are things my Master does not wish me to learn, because he loves me as i am.

It is good he loves you as you are, but I am still confused as I see many ways in which you say no, just they are selective, and not always obvious. By choosing your Master you were passively saying 'no' to others. From what you say, it was obvious he would not tolerate others monopolising your time and energy without his approval...in accepting him you were also accepting that rule and though you relied on him to do the severing of previous relationships, you were still making that choice to say no to them, just choosing another to deliver the message.

I have no issue with how you choose to live your life, or what makes it for you, but I admit I have a problem with contradictions I don't understand as they nag at my brain and that is why I seek to understand if they are contradictions, or just I am missing understanding the whole thing from another's perspective. Is how I learn and grow. I don't share your belief you live a life far removed from others on the forum, or you are the most extreme for what that is worth, but I do believe you like to portray that image. I am still confused and befuddled, but am really trying to keep an open mind. Maybe it is just one of those things which will never be resolved.

Catalina

Catalina, i do not know if it was/is your intention or not, but you have said many cruel, hurtful and moreso disrespectful things here towards me, and i am not really sure why. i hesitated to even admit that my feelings had been hurt by your words, but i felt the need to remind you that there is indeed a living, breathing, and feeling person here.

you see contradictions where there are none. why i seem to have such difficulties making things clear thru this medium, i don't know. perhaps if the two of us ever had the opportunity to speak one on one, there would be none of this confusion. but then perhaps it would be even worse, who knows.

you say that my descriptions reminded you of a former partner of your cousin's, who was very obviously manipulating him and playing the role of a damsel in distress, in order to get what she wanted. i took this to imply that you feel i am basically playing some game with my Master, acting helpless and lost, so that he can feel good about himself and treat me like a queen in the process. this is an insult to both me and my Master, as he is not one to fall for the juvenile little games and tricks of women, and would never have such a woman in his life in any capacity.

maybe this does come down to a difference in definitions, to how you and i define the word "submissive". personally, i go by the standard dictionary definition of a submissive as being one who either chooses to submit, or one who is naturally inclined to submit. i fall in the latter category.

"As to issues of abuse....they do not generally occur because a woman is so submissive in nature...they usually occur because a woman is afraid, embarrassed, forced, believes she deserves it, or is unworthy of being treated with respect.....that is not a submissive nature which is making her submit."

never would i say or imply that all or even most women who have been abused in life, were abused because they are submissive. rather, i believe that many submissive women who were abused at some point in their lives were abused in great part because of their submissive nature. i know this has been the case with me more times than i care to recall.

am not trying to get into a sob story here, but for most of my childhood i was physically and sexually abused by a relative. this relative and his wife had a foster child, who for a short time was my best friend, as we were next door neighbors. this girl was maybe two years older than i, 10 yrs old to my 8. by then, the abuse had already been occuring for years and it was nothing i would have ever dreamed of sharing with anyone, not even this best friend. but somehow, one day, she found out. maybe it was written in my eyes or something...and she just started crying, but not with sadness but with pure ANGER. she was far angrier than i. and she told me that i did not have to put up with it, that he had "gotten hold" of her one time, but when he tried again she scratched his face and kicked his groin, and that he hadn't bothered her since. i was shocked and saddened 1. that he had done this to someone else; and 2. that all it took to stop him was to fight back. it had never even occured to me to fight back. after all, what chance would a skinny frail little girl have against a 250 lb professional bodybuilder?? but here this other little girl had beaten him, and it wasn't even hard. i felt so stupid...yet at the same time i knew, that i would never be able to do what she had done. i wasn't as strong...i wasn't as mean. that's when it struck me...he actually CHOSE me. this wasn't some random mishap of fate...it wasn't just bad luck, or simply a matter of convenience because i was family and lived next door. it was because of who i was...a shy, compliant child who wouldn't fight back, who wouldn't complain and who wouldn't tell. a submissive child. he could have easily overpowered this other girl if he wanted...but why should he put himself thru all that trouble, when he had me, who would do nothing? from that point onwards, i blamed myself directly for everything bad that ever happened to me. then i began to blame God (believed in God back then) for making me the way i was. i never blamed the abusers...even as i became an adult, and i was abused, i never saw the abuser as the one with the problem. i feel that abusers take advantage of the easiest opportunity...and i was always the easiest opportunity.

why i share all these thoughts with you here...i don't know. maybe to say that if i had had the power to do so, i would have wiped out any trace of a submissive nature within myself many years ago. before discovering the D/s lifestyle, i had seen this part of myself as nothing but ugly, nothing but pain. i just wanted to be like everyone else. i wanted to be like my childhood best friend, who could fight back. i wanted to be able to tell people to f*ck off, to leave me alone. i just wanted to be "normal". never in my wildest dreams did it occur to me for even a second that there would be any man on this planet who would actually want me his very own...who would KNOW how i am, would know how weird and messed up i was and could love me anyway. suicide was an option i had tried many times, but as i couldn't even manage to do that right, i then saw it as my "fate", to live on and on in pain...to be abused over and over again, and to never be loved.

when i began to explore the D/s lifestyle, i did not dream to think that i would find what i needed there...but at that point it was enough to just know a name for what i was. when i would meet Dominants, i never presumed to think any of them would ever actually care for me or want me, and before Daddy, none did. this is why i say there was no one to "hold back". no one wanted me, so there was no one to refuse. perhaps if some other Dominant had claimed he wished me to be his, before Daddy did, and had taken me to live with him, then i would still belong to that Dominant now and never would have met Daddy or grown close to him. something else you would probably not be able to relate to Catalina, is the process by which my relationship with Daddy evolved. i know from what you've shared before that you were actively seeking a Master when you found Francisco. i never sought a Master. wanted one desperately, yes, but never looked, and definitely never saw any of the Dominants in my life as a potential Master. Daddy became my friend, then my Mentor and guide, then my Father. throughout these evolutions, i continued to see other Dominants and vanilla men as well, as they wished to see me. i stopped seeing others when Daddy actually became my Master...and he put an end to all that himself. you seem to think that i was refusing others, that i was telling others "no" so that i could be with Daddy. that i chose Daddy out of the many who desired me...lol. Daddy was always the only one...the only one who wanted me for anything more than the things wiser and less submissive women are typically paid to provide. when he decided he wanted me, that is when i became his. and that is when everyone else disappeared, either because they had tired of me already or because Daddy actively got rid of them.


"And as you said in your reply to Cait, which seemed to be another contradiction...."i must state once again that submitting for me is not about doing something i wish to do. my Master actually fulfills my needs (my needs for survival and sanity) much more by restricting and limiting my submission in the ways he does. " ...you say you do not wish to submit, have said it is all for his pleasure and fulfillment, actually sound as if you are using him, then say he fulfils your needs..which I think Cait was trying to point out. Isn't that getting something out of your submission for you? The words of Dr. Phil keep playing in my head here right now..."Girl, be honest....what are you getting out of this?" As he says, no-one can convince him anyone does anything without expecting something in return..they don't do anything for nothing. And you have both verified and denied this in just 2 sentences!! I am getting really confused."


here again i was very much misunderstood. i stated, repeatedly, that i do not submit because i wish to submit. that does NOT mean that i never wish to submit. in fact, in this very thread i have stated that there are times that i very much wish to submit and enjoy submitting. the point i was attempting to make is that my submission does not come from a desire to submit...it comes from a DRIVE to submit. sometimes i wish to submit, sometimes i do not...but regardless i will submit. when it comes to my Master, of course i wish to submit to him. because i wish with all my heart to please him, make him happy and fulfilled. so i will always want to submit to him....it will not always be a joy, will not always be pleasant, but i always desire the end result...pleasing him. so yes i "get" very much from my union with my Master. i am loved unconditionally, valued, respected, wanted and needed. and i actually am able to make him happy. maybe some of the same things you get from your Master.


as for my lack of a desire to continue this life if something were to happen to Daddy....yes, i know that is not the proper mindset. i know my Master does not want me to follow him to the grave, that he wants me to continue on and make the most out of life. He sees life as beautiful and precious all on its own, and he finds me beautiful and precious and thinks that i have much to offer the world, even without him. He knows i do not agree with him, and that hurts him. it is my low self-esteem and poor feelings of self worth that hinder me from thinking as i should when it comes to that subject. Daddy knows this and understands this. i hope one day to have the strength to overcome this. of course my greater hope is that it will be a non-issue, that i will never lose him so never have to worry about it.


"I don't share your belief you live a life far removed from others on the forum, or you are the most extreme for what that is worth, but I do believe you like to portray that image. I am still confused and befuddled, but am really trying to keep an open mind. Maybe it is just one of those things which will never be resolved. "

i hardly feel that i am the "most extreme" by any means, on this board or in any other lifestyle community. to the contrary, when it comes to many many things, i feel that in comparison to most my Master and i are among the vanilla. our life together is very much ward and june cleaver (or what ward and june would have been in the typical household). we live very simple lives. in this way, i do feel the way we live is quite different from most on this forum. perhaps are ways are a bit too plain/no frills and old-fashioned for this community.

 

[sunfox]

Catalina, i do not know if it was/is your intention or not, but you have said many cruel, hurtful and moreso disrespectful things here towards me, and i am not really sure why. i hesitated to even admit that my feelings had been hurt by your words, but i felt the need to remind you that there is indeed a living, breathing, and feeling person here.

I doubt that was Catalina's intention, as I'm sure she'll state in her own words eventually. If someone disagreeing with your point of view is cruel, hurtful, and disrespectful, then I can't think this is the first time you've felt it, nor will it be the last. If one is going to post, then one must be prepared to realize that not everyone will worship their thoughts as the One True Way.

you see contradictions where there are none. why i seem to have such difficulties making things clear thru this medium, i don't know. perhaps if the two of us ever had the opportunity to speak one on one, there would be none of this confusion. but then perhaps it would be even worse, who knows.

you say that my descriptions reminded you of a former partner of your cousin's, who was very obviously manipulating him and playing the role of a damsel in distress, in order to get what she wanted. i took this to imply that you feel i am basically playing some game with my Master, acting helpless and lost, so that he can feel good about himself and treat me like a queen in the process. this is an insult to both me and my Master, as he is not one to fall for the juvenile little games and tricks of women, and would never have such a woman in his life in any capacity.

All I saw Catalina say was that the situation -reminds- her of the one with her cousin. Not that it was identical. And while the constant assertions that your Master is in every way perfect and omniscient do amuse me, I seriously doubt that he sees through everyone perfectly. I doubt it requires much work on his part to understand you, if you are as simple to comprehend as you make yourself out to be. But that doesn't mean he understands all womankind so absolutely as he understands you, and if he did, men would be flocking to his door to learn his secrets.

maybe this does come down to a difference in definitions, to how you and i define the word "submissive". personally, i go by the standard dictionary definition of a submissive as being one who either chooses to submit, or one who is naturally inclined to submit. i fall in the latter category.

Here I have to comment that I don't feel the way you describe yourself and your reactions to prove that you are a 'natural submissive' so much as naturally obedient. I am naturally submissive. I have been so all my life. And yet it is always a choice to offer submission, and I do not offer it lightly. I don't find your assertion that you cannot run your own life or say no to anyone to be submission so much as unthinking obedience. The two are not mutually exclusive.

"As to issues of abuse....they do not generally occur because a woman is so submissive in nature...they usually occur because a woman is afraid, embarrassed, forced, believes she deserves it, or is unworthy of being treated with respect.....that is not a submissive nature which is making her submit."

never would i say or imply that all or even most women who have been abused in life, were abused because they are submissive. rather, i believe that many submissive women who were abused at some point in their lives were abused in great part because of their submissive nature. i know this has been the case with me more times than i care to recall.

am not trying to get into a sob story here, but for most of my childhood i was physically and sexually abused by a relative. this relative and his wife had a foster child, who for a short time was my best friend, as we were next door neighbors. this girl was maybe two years older than i, 10 yrs old to my 8. by then, the abuse had already been occuring for years and it was nothing i would have ever dreamed of sharing with anyone, not even this best friend. but somehow, one day, she found out. maybe it was written in my eyes or something...and she just started crying, but not with sadness but with pure ANGER. she was far angrier than i. and she told me that i did not have to put up with it, that he had "gotten hold" of her one time, but when he tried again she scratched his face and kicked his groin, and that he hadn't bothered her since. i was shocked and saddened 1. that he had done this to someone else; and 2. that all it took to stop him was to fight back. it had never even occured to me to fight back. after all, what chance would a skinny frail little girl have against a 250 lb professional bodybuilder?? but here this other little girl had beaten him, and it wasn't even hard. i felt so stupid...yet at the same time i knew, that i would never be able to do what she had done. i wasn't as strong...i wasn't as mean. that's when it struck me...he actually CHOSE me. this wasn't some random mishap of fate...it wasn't just bad luck, or simply a matter of convenience because i was family and lived next door. it was because of who i was...a shy, compliant child who wouldn't fight back, who wouldn't complain and who wouldn't tell. a submissive child. he could have easily overpowered this other girl if he wanted...but why should he put himself thru all that trouble, when he had me, who would do nothing? from that point onwards, i blamed myself directly for everything bad that ever happened to me. then i began to blame God (believed in God back then) for making me the way i was. i never blamed the abusers...even as i became an adult, and i was abused, i never saw the abuser as the one with the problem. i feel that abusers take advantage of the easiest opportunity...and i was always the easiest opportunity.

All I can say to this is, while I am of course sorry to hear of the abuse you have suffered, at some point, you can either choose to live your life without allowing this abuse to color it, or you can spend your life viewing yourself as a victim. You are hardly the only person to have been abused, myself included, in some fashion or another... and if anything, the abuse I have suffered has only made me that much more certain to know that the person I submit to is worthy of the trust I place in him, and will see to my welfare in all ways, as I see to his. It is still a choice to let yourself be victimized once you reach an age where you can see that what is happening is not your fault... you can roll over and let an abuser win, or as Phoenix has said, you can do what is right for both the abuser and yourself, and do your part to end the situation, whether by fighting back, or simply telling someone who can help. A decision to do nothing is still a decision.

why i share all these thoughts with you here...i don't know. maybe to say that if i had had the power to do so, i would have wiped out any trace of a submissive nature within myself many years ago. before discovering the D/s lifestyle, i had seen this part of myself as nothing but ugly, nothing but pain. i just wanted to be like everyone else. i wanted to be like my childhood best friend, who could fight back. i wanted to be able to tell people to f*ck off, to leave me alone. i just wanted to be "normal". never in my wildest dreams did it occur to me for even a second that there would be any man on this planet who would actually want me his very own...who would KNOW how i am, would know how weird and messed up i was and could love me anyway. suicide was an option i had tried many times, but as i couldn't even manage to do that right, i then saw it as my "fate", to live on and on in pain...to be abused over and over again, and to never be loved.

Fate only gets you so far, as I said above. People who seriously seek suicide rarely fail. Suicidal gestures, on the other hand, are a cry for help/attention/love, which is something I see in most every post from you. A desire for acceptance, understanding, perhaps even pity or sympathy. You CAN say fuck off. You CAN say leave me alone. You CHOOSE not to do so. This doesn't make you a victim by chance, but by choice.

when i began to explore the D/s lifestyle, i did not dream to think that i would find what i needed there...but at that point it was enough to just know a name for what i was. when i would meet Dominants, i never presumed to think any of them would ever actually care for me or want me, and before Daddy, none did. this is why i say there was no one to "hold back". no one wanted me, so there was no one to refuse. perhaps if some other Dominant had claimed he wished me to be his, before Daddy did, and had taken me to live with him, then i would still belong to that Dominant now and never would have met Daddy or grown close to him. something else you would probably not be able to relate to Catalina, is the process by which my relationship with Daddy evolved. i know from what you've shared before that you were actively seeking a Master when you found Francisco. i never sought a Master. wanted one desperately, yes, but never looked, and definitely never saw any of the Dominants in my life as a potential Master. Daddy became my friend, then my Mentor and guide, then my Father. throughout these evolutions, i continued to see other Dominants and vanilla men as well, as they wished to see me. i stopped seeing others when Daddy actually became my Master...and he put an end to all that himself. you seem to think that i was refusing others, that i was telling others "no" so that i could be with Daddy. that i chose Daddy out of the many who desired me...lol. Daddy was always the only one...the only one who wanted me for anything more than the things wiser and less submissive women are typically paid to provide. when he decided he wanted me, that is when i became his. and that is when everyone else disappeared, either because they had tired of me already or because Daddy actively got rid of them.


"And as you said in your reply to Cait, which seemed to be another contradiction...."i must state once again that submitting for me is not about doing something i wish to do. my Master actually fulfills my needs (my needs for survival and sanity) much more by restricting and limiting my submission in the ways he does. " ...you say you do not wish to submit, have said it is all for his pleasure and fulfillment, actually sound as if you are using him, then say he fulfils your needs..which I think Cait was trying to point out. Isn't that getting something out of your submission for you? The words of Dr. Phil keep playing in my head here right now..."Girl, be honest....what are you getting out of this?" As he says, no-one can convince him anyone does anything without expecting something in return..they don't do anything for nothing. And you have both verified and denied this in just 2 sentences!! I am getting really confused."


here again i was very much misunderstood. i stated, repeatedly, that i do not submit because i wish to submit. that does NOT mean that i never wish to submit. in fact, in this very thread i have stated that there are times that i very much wish to submit and enjoy submitting. the point i was attempting to make is that my submission does not come from a desire to submit...it comes from a DRIVE to submit. sometimes i wish to submit, sometimes i do not...but regardless i will submit. when it comes to my Master, of course i wish to submit to him. because i wish with all my heart to please him, make him happy and fulfilled. so i will always want to submit to him....it will not always be a joy, will not always be pleasant, but i always desire the end result...pleasing him. so yes i "get" very much from my union with my Master. i am loved unconditionally, valued, respected, wanted and needed. and i actually am able to make him happy. maybe some of the same things you get from your Master.

Again, all I can say is that this sounds like a drive to obey, not submit, but I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. This will sound insulting, but honestly, anyone who knows me knows I deeply love and adore my pets, so I do swear I don't mean it to be insulting.

I can tell my three dogs to sit. One will sit because he is submissive to me, and it doesn't occur to him to want anything but to earn a smile from me. The puppy will sit or not sit, because she's young enough to not have place other than the indulged one offered to the very young. The oldest dog, my shepherd, will sit not because he is submitting to me, but because it is his instinct to obey. The command is given, he obeys it. It costs him nothing to do so. But he does not fear me, does not necessarily respect me, and in his eyes, holds a position outside of my control. He obeys. That is it.

What I see is you obeying not because you wish to submit, but because all you can do is obey. There is no choice involved in it. It is simply something you do. Which is fine.. that's how it works for you.. but I don't see that as submission. Again, I apologize for the potentially inflammatory example, but it was the best parallel I could think of right now, and with me, everything in the end comes back to dog training.

as for my lack of a desire to continue this life if something were to happen to Daddy....yes, i know that is not the proper mindset. i know my Master does not want me to follow him to the grave, that he wants me to continue on and make the most out of life. He sees life as beautiful and precious all on its own, and he finds me beautiful and precious and thinks that i have much to offer the world, even without him. He knows i do not agree with him, and that hurts him. it is my low self-esteem and poor feelings of self worth that hinder me from thinking as i should when it comes to that subject. Daddy knows this and understands this. i hope one day to have the strength to overcome this. of course my greater hope is that it will be a non-issue, that i will never lose him so never have to worry about it.

I agree with Catalina on this, that it sounds like a 'woe is me, if he were gone, I could not go on' ...*puts hand to forehead and looks faint*... kind of thing. If you are a slave, and his will is all that matters, then your will in this matter should mean nothing. You may not WISH to go on without him, but because it is his wish that you do, why would you disregard it? Boy, you kinda sound like me there for a second. Could this be a flash of unnatural autonomy rearing its ugly head?


"I don't share your belief you live a life far removed from others on the forum, or you are the most extreme for what that is worth, but I do believe you like to portray that image. I am still confused and befuddled, but am really trying to keep an open mind. Maybe it is just one of those things which will never be resolved. "

i hardly feel that i am the "most extreme" by any means, on this board or in any other lifestyle community. to the contrary, when it comes to many many things, i feel that in comparison to most my Master and i are among the vanilla. our life together is very much ward and june cleaver (or what ward and june would have been in the typical household). we live very simple lives. in this way, i do feel the way we live is quite different from most on this forum. perhaps are ways are a bit too plain/no frills and old-fashioned for this community.

Okay. Um. My parents are about the epitome of Ward and June Cleaver-esque behavior. Seriously. They are old fashioned. They are plain. They live simple lives. But my father doesn't sit above my mother, she doesn't need him to survive, and if he laid a hand on her, she'd probably clean his clock.

I would not term your description of your life plain, no frills, simple, or old-fashioned. Unless a return of 'Me man, me claim you woman... woman, you will do my will because me man, me strong like ox.' is old-fashioned. I guess for the Neanderthals it was cutting edge, but nowadays, I'd have to say that evolution put an end to that chest beating crap some time ago.

But whatever floats your boat.

I guess I'm on the shit list now as a meanie too. C'est la vie. This is my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Prof Bill]

Re: Re: slave/sub requests

[If the Dominant allows this kind communication, then the Dominant should not be insulted if the sub vocalizes their needs provided they are presented in a respectful manner. No, i don't believe verbalizing those needs (e.g., a spanking) usurps the Dominant's control unless the Dominant specifically sets out conditions wherein the sub is not allowed to express those needs without permission. Again, it really is contingent on rules set out by the Dominant and how He/She conducts their relationship with their sub.

Isn't this really negotiation before a scene? I always want my sub to let me know what she's interested in, what she's in the mood for, and so on. I like to do most things, and I know I'm going to do a number of them in the scene that's coming up. Why not pick those that will also be most fulfilling and pleasurable for the sub?

And sometimes she mentions things that I have absolutely no interest in and we don't do them. At least not that time.

The questions I ask before a scene are: "Do you give yourself to me totally? Are you mine to do with as I please? Is your purpose to give me pleasure?"

The correct answer to all of these is a humble, eyes-down, "yes, sir."

Until that point, it's all negotiation of one kind or another.

Bill

 

[shyly curious]

Catalina, i do not know if it was/is your intention or not, but you have said many cruel, hurtful and moreso disrespectful things here towards me, and i am not really sure why. i hesitated to even admit that my feelings had been hurt by your words, but i felt the need to remind you that there is indeed a living, breathing, and feeling person here.


........ i am baffled by your insistence that Catalina was disrespectful to you. All i saw was her disagreeing with you and explaining why she did disagree with you. Why do you think Catalina needs to be reminded you are alive? What do you seek from her? Absolution? Forgiveness? Comraderie?


you see contradictions where there are none. why i seem to have such difficulties making things clear thru this medium, i don't know. perhaps if the two of us ever had the opportunity to speak one on one, there would be none of this confusion. but then perhaps it would be even worse, who knows.


......... I have seen others offer their views that you contradict yourself. Why do you feel the confusion would not be if you spoke face to face, would you use different words? Why not use those different words here? Now?


you say that my descriptions reminded you of a former partner of your cousin's, who was very obviously manipulating him and playing the role of a damsel in distress, in order to get what she wanted. i took this to imply that you feel i am basically playing some game with my Master, acting helpless and lost, so that he can feel good about himself and treat me like a queen in the process. this is an insult to both me and my Master, as he is not one to fall for the juvenile little games and tricks of women, and would never have such a woman in his life in any capacity.


......... i have to wonder what your master would say here. Does he think you play the "damsel in distress"? Is he glad you do play that role?


maybe this does come down to a difference in definitions, to how you and i define the word "submissive". personally, i go by the standard dictionary definition of a submissive as being one who either chooses to submit, or one who is naturally inclined to submit. i fall in the latter category.

......... My Websters lists submissive as 1) submitting or surrendering, 2) obedience or resignation. Which are you in your eyes?


"As to issues of abuse....they do not generally occur because a woman is so submissive in nature...they usually occur because a woman is afraid, embarrassed, forced, believes she deserves it, or is unworthy of being treated with respect.....that is not a submissive nature which is making her submit."

never would i say or imply that all or even most women who have been abused in life, were abused because they are submissive. rather, i believe that many submissive women who were abused at some point in their lives were abused in great part because of their submissive nature. i know this has been the case with me more times than i care to recall.


......... The only abuse i have suffered was mental abuse from several sources, and the wife who plotted to kill me. It was / is a choice to remain in contact with relatives who did / do abuse me. It is a choice i make to remain in contact knowing there are repercussions. i remain in contact not because i am submissive, but because good or bad they are my family and i am strong enough to recognise the abuse and not embrace it as me.


i'm not trying to get into a sob story here, but for most of my childhood i was physically and sexually abused by a relative. this relative and his wife had a foster child, who for a short time was my best friend, as we were next door neighbors. this girl was maybe two years older than i, 10 yrs old to my 8. by then, the abuse had already been occuring for years and it was nothing i would have ever dreamed of sharing with anyone, not even this best friend. but somehow, one day, she found out. maybe it was written in my eyes or something...and she just started crying, but not with sadness but with pure ANGER. she was far angrier than i. and she told me that i did not have to put up with it, that he had "gotten hold" of her one time, but when he tried again she scratched his face and kicked his groin, and that he hadn't bothered her since. i was shocked and saddened 1. that he had done this to someone else; and 2. that all it took to stop him was to fight back. it had never even occured to me to fight back. after all, what chance would a skinny frail little girl have against a 250 lb professional bodybuilder?? but here this other little girl had beaten him, and it wasn't even hard. i felt so stupid...yet at the same time i knew, that i would never be able to do what she had done. i wasn't as strong...i wasn't as mean. that's when it struck me...he actually CHOSE me. this wasn't some random mishap of fate...it wasn't just bad luck, or simply a matter of convenience because i was family and lived next door. it was because of who i was...a shy, compliant child who wouldn't fight back, who wouldn't complain and who wouldn't tell. a submissive child. he could have easily overpowered this other girl if he wanted...but why should he put himself thru all that trouble, when he had me, who would do nothing? from that point onwards, i blamed myself directly for everything bad that ever happened to me. then i began to blame God (believed in God back then) for making me the way i was. i never blamed the abusers...even as i became an adult, and i was abused, i never saw the abuser as the one with the problem. i feel that abusers take advantage of the easiest opportunity...and i was always the easiest opportunity.


......... For someone who claimed not to want to get into a sob story you sure went into an awful lot of details for us. Why?


why i share all these thoughts with you here...i don't know. maybe to say that if i had had the power to do so, i would have wiped out any trace of a submissive nature within myself many years ago. before discovering the D/s lifestyle, i had seen this part of myself as nothing but ugly, nothing but pain. i just wanted to be like everyone else. i wanted to be like my childhood best friend, who could fight back. i wanted to be able to tell people to f*ck off, to leave me alone. i just wanted to be "normal". never in my wildest dreams did it occur to me for even a second that there would be any man on this planet who would actually want me his very own...who would KNOW how i am, would know how weird and messed up i was and could love me anyway. suicide was an option i had tried many times, but as i couldn't even manage to do that right, i then saw it as my "fate", to live on and on in pain...to be abused over and over again, and to never be loved.


......... Gosh, who doesn't wish they fit in, had the strength that others seem to have, etc., etc.. And the suicide tale, sorry, sounds like another plea for absolution / forgiveness / from Catalina. And the whole "woe is me" thing is tiring too.


when i began to explore the D/s lifestyle, i did not dream to think that i would find what i needed there...but at that point it was enough to just know a name for what i was. when i would meet Dominants, i never presumed to think any of them would ever actually care for me or want me, and before Daddy, none did. this is why i say there was no one to "hold back". no one wanted me, so there was no one to refuse. perhaps if some other Dominant had claimed he wished me to be his, before Daddy did, and had taken me to live with him, then i would still belong to that Dominant now and never would have met Daddy or grown close to him. something else you would probably not be able to relate to Catalina, is the process by which my relationship with Daddy evolved. i know from what you've shared before that you were actively seeking a Master when you found Francisco. i never sought a Master. wanted one desperately, yes, but never looked, and definitely never saw any of the Dominants in my life as a potential Master. Daddy became my friend, then my Mentor and guide, then my Father. throughout these evolutions, i continued to see other Dominants and vanilla men as well, as they wished to see me. i stopped seeing others when Daddy actually became my Master...and he put an end to all that himself. you seem to think that i was refusing others, that i was telling others "no" so that i could be with Daddy. that i chose Daddy out of the many who desired me...lol. Daddy was always the only one...the only one who wanted me for anything more than the things wiser and less submissive women are typically paid to provide. when he decided he wanted me, that is when i became his. and that is when everyone else disappeared, either because they had tired of me already or because Daddy actively got rid of them.


......... So Daddy got you cause the others had tired of you? You saw others as long as they wanted to see you? And this is a good thing????


"And as you said in your reply to Cait, which seemed to be another contradiction...."i must state once again that submitting for me is not about doing something i wish to do. my Master actually fulfills my needs (my needs for survival and sanity) much more by restricting and limiting my submission in the ways he does. " ...you say you do not wish to submit, have said it is all for his pleasure and fulfillment, actually sound as if you are using him, then say he fulfils your needs..which I think Cait was trying to point out. Isn't that getting something out of your submission for you? The words of Dr. Phil keep playing in my head here right now..."Girl, be honest....what are you getting out of this?" As he says, no-one can convince him anyone does anything without expecting something in return..they don't do anything for nothing. And you have both verified and denied this in just 2 sentences!! I am getting really confused."


here again i was very much misunderstood. i stated, repeatedly, that i do not submit because i wish to submit. that does NOT mean that i never wish to submit. in fact, in this very thread i have stated that there are times that i very much wish to submit and enjoy submitting. the point i was attempting to make is that my submission does not come from a desire to submit...it comes from a DRIVE to submit. sometimes i wish to submit, sometimes i do not...but regardless i will submit. when it comes to my Master, of course i wish to submit to him. because i wish with all my heart to please him, make him happy and fulfilled. so i will always want to submit to him....it will not always be a joy, will not always be pleasant, but i always desire the end result...pleasing him. so yes i "get" very much from my union with my Master. i am loved unconditionally, valued, respected, wanted and needed. and i actually am able to make him happy. maybe some of the same things you get from your Master.


......... My my, now you are splitting hairs, desire to submit vs. drive to submit vs. wish to submit vs. will submit.


as for my lack of a desire to continue this life if something were to happen to Daddy....yes, i know that is not the proper mindset. i know my Master does not want me to follow him to the grave, that he wants me to continue on and make the most out of life. He sees life as beautiful and precious all on its own, and he finds me beautiful and precious and thinks that i have much to offer the world, even without him. He knows i do not agree with him, and that hurts him. it is my low self-esteem and poor feelings of self worth that hinder me from thinking as i should when it comes to that subject. Daddy knows this and understands this. i hope one day to have the strength to overcome this. of course my greater hope is that it will be a non-issue, that i will never lose him so never have to worry about it.


"I don't share your belief you live a life far removed from others on the forum, or you are the most extreme for what that is worth, but I do believe you like to portray that image. I am still confused and befuddled, but am really trying to keep an open mind. Maybe it is just one of those things which will never be resolved. "

i hardly feel that i am the "most extreme" by any means, on this board or in any other lifestyle community. to the contrary, when it comes to many many things, i feel that in comparison to most my Master and i are among the vanilla. our life together is very much ward and june cleaver (or what ward and june would have been in the typical household). we live very simple lives. in this way, i do feel the way we live is quite different from most on this forum. perhaps are ways are a bit too plain/no frills and old-fashioned for this community.

......... If you and master lead such vanilla lives, why are you here on Lit?? And why do you so need Catalina and others to approve your choices on how you live your life?

......... i hope you find what you seek, for your health and happiness. i just get befuddled in all the contradictions i see sentence after sentence, paragraph after paragraph, post after post.

be well all, shy

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, i do not know if it was/is your intention or not, but you have said many cruel, hurtful and moreso disrespectful things here towards me, and i am not really sure why. i hesitated to even admit that my feelings had been hurt by your words, but i felt the need to remind you that there is indeed a living, breathing, and feeling person here. (snipped to save the space of quoting in full)

OSG, it was not my intention to do anything but try and get to the truth. See I admit, I have a terrible habit of needing authenticity in my life, and though I know people online misrepresent themselves every minute in one form or another, I do not understand why anyone would want to....I try to ignore it but as I pointed out contradictions in conversations, books, anything, are one thing which niggle at my brain until I can solve them. If people choose to say they are one thing and appear another, it is their right if that is what they want, but it is also my right to try and understand and believe and question that which when I add 2+2 does not equal 4, IMHO of course. It seems from what I read here I am far from the only one who has questions and is puzzled to the max.

As sunfox said, when posting public, one doesn't have any right to post and expect no-one to respond except in purely positive or supportive tones. Most here who are in the lifestyle or interested do draw on the experiences of others, and as such question often. Sheeesh, I myself have been upset on more than one occasion because I felt misunderstood, disbelieved, etc., but I know as long as I communicate with people anywhere in any medium, I am not going to make everyone happy all the time, some never. My desire to learn and experience far outweigh any slight which might be thrown my way. It might surprise you at one time I was probably your greatest champion when others were quite the opposite.

As to your abusive past, I know of it from your previous postings on various thread. As sunfox says, you do not own the monopoly on this. I daresay many might have experienced far more, you and I don't know. My search for a Master was in part true, but as I have said before, it was instigated by my mentor....so if we want to go into exact points here, I was obeying, though over time and reflection I saw the sense of what he ordered and have never regretted it.

Now as to a one on one talk one day....I would love that. From what I gather through various discussions here and elsewhere, no-one has ever seen or heard you in any context except for words on a computer screen....and as I am Gemini, I must confess, my curiousity is more than a little out of control. I was so disappointed when you didn't come to the Lit East Coast get together last year. I am sure we would find more than enough to discuss which would likely keep us out of mischief for a considerable time....and I even think our Masters might find much to talk about and confer on.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

sunfox, you and i have not agreed on many things. but that is a good thing...i have no desire to have everyone in agreement with my or my Master's opinions, ways and beliefs. so my hurt feelings were not due to any disagreements. there were due to being outright insulted, abeit (possibly) unintentionally. saying that i am not a submissive, but more a damsel in distress, or damsel in distress wannabe, is an insult. as is your own sentiment that i am not submissive but merely "unthinkingly" obedient. it took me a long time to find myself, to know myself, and then to be accept and be happy with that self. so when someone else tries to take away that new self, by saying "oh that's not what you really are, you're more like this"...it's hurtful to me. and yes i know i have an overly sensitive nature and words said by strangers really shouldn't make a difference to me one way or the other. but they do and i felt i should be honest and admit it.

"All I saw Catalina say was that the situation -reminds- her of the one with her cousin. Not that it was identical. And while the constant assertions that your Master is in every way perfect and omniscient do amuse me, I seriously doubt that he sees through everyone perfectly. I doubt it requires much work on his part to understand you, if you are as simple to comprehend as you make yourself out to be. But that doesn't mean he understands all womankind so absolutely as he understands you, and if he did, men would be flocking to his door to learn his secrets."

first, i have never said that my Master is perfect or perfect in all ways. simply that he is perfect for me. He has flaws, he makes mistakes, he is human and that is the case with humans. i would never imply anything different. moreover, it does not take much to see through a manipulator, such as the damsel in distress type of Catalina's cousin's former partner. my Master has more than enough wisdom and intelligence to see through such a game and would not tolerate such a person in his life. as for your belief that it does not take much to understand me, well you do not know me so you're entitled to your false perceptions.

"Here I have to comment that I don't feel the way you describe yourself and your reactions to prove that you are a 'natural submissive' so much as naturally obedient. I am naturally submissive. I have been so all my life. And yet it is always a choice to offer submission, and I do not offer it lightly. I don't find your assertion that you cannot run your own life or say no to anyone to be submission so much as unthinking obedience. The two are not mutually exclusive."

now you say you are a natural submissive and have been so all your life...yet you always consciously choose to offer your submission, and do not "offer it lightly". so then, in what way are you naturally submissive? this is not meant to be an insult to you in any way, just that i don't understand how the two concepts fit together, just as you and others here obviously do not understand me. in the end, again, it just comes down to a difference in belief as to what a submissive is and what a submissive is not (btw, i am never "unthinking"...i do not unthinkingly obey...i instinctively submit...and there is a great difference between the two).


"All I can say to this is, while I am of course sorry to hear of the abuse you have suffered, at some point, you can either choose to live your life without allowing this abuse to color it, or you can spend your life viewing yourself as a victim. You are hardly the only person to have been abused, myself included, in some fashion or another... and if anything, the abuse I have suffered has only made me that much more certain to know that the person I submit to is worthy of the trust I place in him, and will see to my welfare in all ways, as I see to his. It is still a choice to let yourself be victimized once you reach an age where you can see that what is happening is not your fault... you can roll over and let an abuser win, or as Phoenix has said, you can do what is right for both the abuser and yourself, and do your part to end the situation, whether by fighting back, or simply telling someone who can help. A decision to do nothing is still a decision."

one point where i agree with you in this paragraph, is that the vast majority of the abuse that's occured in my life is indeed my fault. HOW it is my fault, is where we differ. i feel it is my fault because of who i am. you feel it is my fault because i just sat back and allowed these things to happen. i made the choice to do nothing. all i can say is, that was never a choice i made. because of who i am, because of my nature, it is beyond me to respond in certain ways...i.e. by fighting back. as for telling someone, in the past i just never saw what good could possibly come from that. as a child i was just far too ashamed and felt too much guilt for my own part in it...and as a teen, there was just no one who would have cared. now of course there is my Master who cares and who can do something, and i tell him everything, good and bad. anyone harming me is now a direct insult to him in his eyes, and he has fought those battles.

"Fate only gets you so far, as I said above. People who seriously seek suicide rarely fail. Suicidal gestures, on the other hand, are a cry for help/attention/love, which is something I see in most every post from you. A desire for acceptance, understanding, perhaps even pity or sympathy. You CAN say fuck off. You CAN say leave me alone. You CHOOSE not to do so. This doesn't make you a victim by chance, but by choice."

first i think you misunderstood here that i was describing the way i USED to think, beliefs that i previously held. things are different now. i don't blame everything on fate any longer. as for the implication that i was not serious in my previous suicide attempts, because of the fact that i failed....all i can say to that is that i was deadly serious, but also either not knowledgeable enough at those times to bring about the desired effect (not uncommon for an 8 yr old without a gun in the house), or was not "fortunate" enough to be alone for the required amount of time...as happened twice when someone else unexpectedly came in, found me near dead, and got "help".

but, it is true that i do seek acceptance and understanding in places where i should not, like from strangers on a message board. but pity and sympathy? i detest the idea of anyone feelings such things toward me as i do not think there is any reason for anyone with my life (with a wonderful loving Master) to be pitied.

and i take no offense to the analogy of your training of your dogs, but i definitely take offense to your continued assertion that i am not submissive but simply obedient. you mentioned your dog who sits when you say sit because he is submissive to you and wishes to maybe see a smile on your face aimed in his direction. likewise, it is always my desire to please my Master, to put some joy in his heart or some gratification in his soul, by doing as he wishes. but no, that is not WHY i submit to him. rather, that is why i belong to him, why i gave myself to him. i doubt this is something i could ever explain here so that is my last attempt at trying.

as to your description of your parents, if indeed your mother would "clean his clock", if your father were to lay a hand on her, i would not describe their relationship as ward and june cleaver-esque, except perhaps in the superficial, outside appearance of it. i'm referring to a way of life that was the norm in most of the world including the western world since the dawn of humankind (neanderthal days included), and has only in the last 50+ yrs or so become un-politically correct. even in my Master's generation, such relationships were still commonplace and accepted as "the way it is" by most, though not necessarily appreciated as much as in the past. there is great beauty imo in a Man and woman living and loving true to their deepest instincts and purest natures.

 

[Caitlynne]

Catalina, i do not know if it was/is your intention or not, but you have said many cruel, hurtful and moreso disrespectful things here towards me, and i am not really sure why. i hesitated to even admit that my feelings had been hurt by your words, but i felt the need to remind you that there is indeed a living, breathing, and feeling person here.

you see contradictions where there are none. why i seem to have such difficulties making things clear thru this medium, i don't know. perhaps if the two of us ever had the opportunity to speak one on one, there would be none of this confusion. but then perhaps it would be even worse, who knows.

OK, I'm going to give it one last shot to try and understand, and then I will leave it alone.

Here is my confusion...... You say you can do nothing but submit, you do this, not because you want to, but because you must. It is innate within you.

But you seem to be able to point out when you are upset and hurt by the words of others. I don't think Catalina intended any insult, but she can answer for herself. BUT what I do see is that you were quite capable of pointing out your distress over her words and how YOU saw them.

This says to me that you are not as helpless as you claim to be. It indicates a choice was made, a choice to stick up for yourself. And As Catalina rightly pointed out, this is the center of our confusion.

We, none of make a judgment on the life you lead, if it makes you happy and your are fulfilled, then it is fine. But osg we are trying to understand the contradictions, not attack you. It might have been a better approach to state your POV without comparing it to other 'self-proclaimed D/s submissives'. There was a hint of 'my submission is better than yours' in it..... BUT we are way past that now. Now we are in the middle of trying to understand.

I have to agree with others in this thread, you appear to be able to make 'selective' choices. Those selections are indicative of a 'will' being present. And if there is a 'will' present and it appears to be capable of making some self-defensive decisions, then others can be learned. Yet you claim you cannot.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and tell you as a fellow community member that in fact you can make other self-defensive choices. It might not be easy, but it can be done. You may choose not to do it, but you have already demonstrated that you can do it. You may choose to live believing that you have no choice, but you do have one. We see it; it is there; you just make choices selectively. And I don't think any of it has to do with submission per se.

Just as you choose to defend yourself against the alleged cruel words, you can make the choice to say 'no' in other areas of life. When you say "you were cruel" to someone, you are saying, no, you cannot talk to me this way. It doesn't matter for purposes of my post whether the words were in fact cruel, you perceived them that way and you spoke up. This is a self-motivated choice to defend yourself. It demonstrates a "will".

You do have a choice, and you have exercised it several times in this thread alone. So, when one, or two, or three of us make this observation and compare it with you assertions that you 'have no choice'; we of course come to different conclusions about your alleged inability to do anything but submit.

The 'damsel in distress' is an apt image. I get it too. And I will be honest I do see this as a means to be exactly where you wish to be.. on the bottom. But you fail to see that we all think this is fine if it is what you want. You say you do not wish it, but you know, if you didn't want it, it wouldn't be that way.

Ultimately in this life we are all responsible for the choices we make, even if those choices are passive. Every time you allow someone else to make a decision for you, you passively choose to do so. You do it because this is what you want. There is no crime in that, there is no failure in that ... but it is still a choice.

And to continue to claim that you have no choice, well, it begins to sound like an illness... An addict who claims he cannot help it, the Alcoholic who cannot stop drinking, the child who cannot stop hitting their younger sibling, the killer who blamed his deeds on eating twinkies. The list goes on and on with people who claim they have no choice for their behavior....... and as such claim the right to not be responsible for their actions and so not suffer the consequences.

While some see your statements as a question of obedience or submission, I am wondering now if it is not just a lack of responsibility for your own life. You may indeed not wish to submit, and I'm beginning to believe you, but perhaps the reason you *do* submit, is because you fear being responsible for your own life. So compared to that fear, submission looks to be the lesser of two evils.

This has been a somewhat disturbing discussion, because I am now drawn into a kind of protective stance where you are concerned, and at the same time I feel manipulated by it.

As I said, I will now leave this alone, I think I understand as much as I can and no more can be learned. I wish you well osg.

~ Cait

 

[shyly curious]

i believe some people wish to be seen as "VICTIMS" so as to be released from any responsibility for their actions or inactions.

be well all, shy

 

[sunfox]

My name is sunfox, and I'm a glutton for punishment.

sunfox, you and i have not agreed on many things. but that is a good thing...i have no desire to have everyone in agreement with my or my Master's opinions, ways and beliefs. so my hurt feelings were not due to any disagreements. there were due to being outright insulted, abeit (possibly) unintentionally. saying that i am not a submissive, but more a damsel in distress, or damsel in distress wannabe, is an insult. as is your own sentiment that i am not submissive but merely "unthinkingly" obedient. it took me a long time to find myself, to know myself, and then to be accept and be happy with that self. so when someone else tries to take away that new self, by saying "oh that's not what you really are, you're more like this"...it's hurtful to me. and yes i know i have an overly sensitive nature and words said by strangers really shouldn't make a difference to me one way or the other. but they do and i felt i should be honest and admit it.

My sentiments are my own opinions, as I said.. it is my OPINION that you are obedient, unthinking or otherwise. If I wished to insult you, I'd say you're a silly little twit who whines about her pathetic mistreatment while looking for validation from those around her. But I didn't say that, so don't put words in my mouth. Of course, now that I've said that as an example, no doubt you'll assume that's what I meant. But it's your right to infer, just as it's my right to opine. I don't think you're overly sensitive. I just think you pick and choose what to draw insult from.

first, i have never said that my Master is perfect or perfect in all ways. simply that he is perfect for me. He has flaws, he makes mistakes, he is human and that is the case with humans. i would never imply anything different. moreover, it does not take much to see through a manipulator, such as the damsel in distress type of Catalina's cousin's former partner. my Master has more than enough wisdom and intelligence to see through such a game and would not tolerate such a person in his life. as for your belief that it does not take much to understand me, well you do not know me so you're entitled to your false perceptions.

If he makes mistakes like the rest of us, then it's entirely possible and feasible that he would not have the omniscience to see through every person he meets so instantly, any more than it is possible for anyone else to always make the proper first impression of someone's character. Manipulative people are often so skilled at representing themselves as something innocent and trustworthy that even they don't know the depth of their deceits. I doubt your Master's wisdom is so complete that he is utterly incapable of misjudging someone, ever.

now you say you are a natural submissive and have been so all your life...yet you always consciously choose to offer your submission, and do not "offer it lightly". so then, in what way are you naturally submissive? this is not meant to be an insult to you in any way, just that i don't understand how the two concepts fit together, just as you and others here obviously do not understand me. in the end, again, it just comes down to a difference in belief as to what a submissive is and what a submissive is not (btw, i am never "unthinking"...i do not unthinkingly obey...i instinctively submit...and there is a great difference between the two).

I am also naturally black haired, yet I can choose to alter this part of my nature if I choose to. I am naturally quick tempered, and yet I can control that trait to a degree. Submission is no different. It does not own me, it is just a part of me. Instinct may tell me to get angry when someone wrongs me, but I am not mindless, and can choose not to let anger take over. I am submissive by nature, but I am not mindless, and can choose not to submit where it is not safe to do so.

Notice I don't take it as an insult that you asked the question. I'm secure that way. Or is that egotistical? Whatever.


one point where i agree with you in this paragraph, is that the vast majority of the abuse that's occured in my life is indeed my fault. HOW it is my fault, is where we differ. i feel it is my fault because of who i am. you feel it is my fault because i just sat back and allowed these things to happen. i made the choice to do nothing. all i can say is, that was never a choice i made. because of who i am, because of my nature, it is beyond me to respond in certain ways...i.e. by fighting back. as for telling someone, in the past i just never saw what good could possibly come from that. as a child i was just far too ashamed and felt too much guilt for my own part in it...and as a teen, there was just no one who would have cared. now of course there is my Master who cares and who can do something, and i tell him everything, good and bad. anyone harming me is now a direct insult to him in his eyes, and he has fought those battles.

I didn't say that it was your fault you were abused. I said it is your fault to choose to make that a defining factor in your life. Those are two very different distinctions. As Cait so ably pointed out, a passive decision is still a decision, and one must be accountable for their choices, even if the choice is to make no choice at all.

first i think you misunderstood here that i was describing the way i USED to think, beliefs that i previously held. things are different now. i don't blame everything on fate any longer. as for the implication that i was not serious in my previous suicide attempts, because of the fact that i failed....all i can say to that is that i was deadly serious, but also either not knowledgeable enough at those times to bring about the desired effect (not uncommon for an 8 yr old without a gun in the house), or was not "fortunate" enough to be alone for the required amount of time...as happened twice when someone else unexpectedly came in, found me near dead, and got "help".

but, it is true that i do seek acceptance and understanding in places where i should not, like from strangers on a message board. but pity and sympathy? i detest the idea of anyone feelings such things toward me as i do not think there is any reason for anyone with my life (with a wonderful loving Master) to be pitied.

So which is it? Life is wonderful and rosy and perfect, or you submit because you can't help yourself and you don't always want the things that happen to you.. which directly implies unhappiness? Just clarifying.

and i take no offense to the analogy of your training of your dogs, but i definitely take offense to your continued assertion that i am not submissive but simply obedient. you mentioned your dog who sits when you say sit because he is submissive to you and wishes to maybe see a smile on your face aimed in his direction. likewise, it is always my desire to please my Master, to put some joy in his heart or some gratification in his soul, by doing as he wishes. but no, that is not WHY i submit to him. rather, that is why i belong to him, why i gave myself to him. i doubt this is something i could ever explain here so that is my last attempt at trying.

I don't recall saying 'you're not submissive'. What I recall saying was that I don't see natural submission as a driving force so much as I see natural obedience as a driving force, and the two are not mutually exclusive. Can you be obedient and submissive? Of course. Can you be just obedient? Yes. Can you be submissive but not necessarily obedient? Ask my partner. I'm sure he'd tell you 'hell yes.' Luckily he loves me despite all my quirks. And as an unrelated side note to prevent further comparisons, my description of him as a partner and not a Master/Dominant/whatever is due to my rabid desire for privacy.. so don't assume we have a bedroom only sort of D/s relationship without asking me. I may or may not tell you more, but I will say that it is not nearly so simple and easily defined as that, as I'm sure most of our relationships are not.

as to your description of your parents, if indeed your mother would "clean his clock", if your father were to lay a hand on her, i would not describe their relationship as ward and june cleaver-esque, except perhaps in the superficial, outside appearance of it. i'm referring to a way of life that was the norm in most of the world including the western world since the dawn of humankind (neanderthal days included), and has only in the last 50+ yrs or so become un-politically correct. even in my Master's generation, such relationships were still commonplace and accepted as "the way it is" by most, though not necessarily appreciated as much as in the past. there is great beauty imo in a Man and woman living and loving true to their deepest instincts and purest natures.

I seriously doubt Ward would have smacked around June to get his rocks off, but hey, you're inclined to believe whatever you like about the Cleaver's kinky offscreen life. Their relationship is comfortable, traditional, long lasting, stable... all the things common in an 'old-fashioned' relationship. IE, June and Ward.

You're referring to your view of life.. which if you live the way you say you do, is probably quite unequal. If you've never defended yourself, can you recognize it in others as a fact of life? If you grew up abused, can you understand an abuse free upbringing?

Life is colored by our expectations and upbringing... I don't doubt that's the case for you as much as it is for me and anyone else. The way you see traditional isn't the way I see it.. so again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Understand that I'm not attacking you here. But I agree, your inconsistencies are confusing, and make it well-nigh impossible to comprehend what it is you're trying to get across.

Pick a horse, as they say, and stick with him.. don't switch mounts midstream.

 

[catalina_francisco]

This is a very interesting thread to read and full of very intelligent and eloquent postings, especially Caitlynne’s ‘warrior” post is one I found very to be spot on. By now we have been able to read several submissive’s postings. I think it is beneficial to get a Dominant POV on natural submission or unnaturalness for that matter. I would like to clarify what I as a Dominant look for in a submissive, which are the qualities I personally am searching for.

Often it is said that sexual submissives are not true submissives and that the natural submissiveness is of much greater value, to those I say humbug. BDSM, submission, Domination, PYL (thanks Angelic Assassin for the great term) is what the parties involved make of it, there is no truer or better path to follow nor is there a hierarchical tree where trueness or naturalness puts a person higher up on the scale.

Each and every single person on this planet is different in their needs and desires, but there is one trait that all submissives have in common and that is the need to submit to some degree, in some area of their life, to a Dominant. To be a submissive there is no need to have a complete and total power exchange. Every person chooses their own degree of ‘submission’ and on which areas to submit. Some will only sexually submit, some will need pain to be able to submit and some need other factors and apparently as I have just learned from reading this thread some need nothing to submit, they submit to everyone.

To me a natural submissive is one that has a need, desire or compulsion to submit to another person, this submission goes farther than only sexually but the limits are set by the involved parties. This submissive is most content when they are making their Dominant happy. They fulfil their need to submit by fulfilling the needs of their Dominant. A natural submissive may or may not be into bondage, pain or sexual domination however that is not the main purpose of the relationship; it mostly is just a pleasant side effect.

The submission my partner has is one out of strength, she submits to me and only me, to have it any other way would be to dilute the submission she gives me. To refuse me control over a part of her would be to diminish the power she has given over her. In our relationship there is only one way, my way (and I do not mean the highway).

I have said this before but I think it can’t hurt to repeat wise words (if I say so myself). When I am in the mood and when I want to have a ‘scene’ (for lack of a better word) I want to control everything, however if you have a 24/7 relationship it becomes impossible to control every single minute of the day. So I have rules which I expect to be followed and I will control my partner in this way if she is following them. I have standard disciplinary actions for disobedience and for breaking the rules.

I expect my partner to be honest enough to tell me when she breaks a rule, I am normally quite lenient and quite reasonable as long as I have been informed and there is a good reason for not following my orders. Our relationship is not about obedience and disobedience but about submitting willingly to me and wanting to, and desire to fulfil my needs.

I also enjoy a good mind and a good discussion. If there is something I find boring it is a robot, I want to have a relationship in which my partner enriches my life by enriching not only my body but also my mind. The standard brain-dead robot is not the type of slave I am looking for. I do not enjoy disobedience and I do not accept disobedience but that does not mean I can never be wrong, it does not mean that simply because I am the Dominant I have to ignore one of my best resources which is my partner's brain.

Francisco.
Some facts about submission source http://www.bankhead.net/BlackRoseCastle/WhatIsSubmission.htm

Here are just a few facts about submission that might give you some more insight.
Submission occurs in both males and females in about equal proportions. Although men and women may express it differently, they share this trait.

Submission is not a sign of weakness or inferiority. Some of the strongest, most successful people in our society are submissive in their personal relationships.

Submission does not indicate lack of intelligence or motivation. Most submissives are very intelligent, creative and highly motivated people.

Submission is not a hidden desire for pain or humiliation. Some masochistic people may turn to the D/s or BDSM lifestyle in order to fulfil their needs for these things but there are many more gentle, loving individuals who are quite happy not to receive either humiliation or pain.

Submission is not the same as passivity. Submissives are not passive. They participate actively and are thinking individuals.

Submission is not something that can be demanded or forced. The definition of the word means it is a willing act. A submissive submits because they have chosen to do so, not because someone forced them.

Submission is not a miserable state of existence. Most submissives are happy, well balanced people who are simply fulfilling their nature.

Submission is not slavery. All slaves are submissive but not all submissives are slaves. A submissive has not given up their right to choose but has given some of those choices to another to make for them. They have input into their relationship and maintain their identity.

Submission does not indicate sexual promiscuity. Submissives are not sex crazed nymphomaniacs who cannot control their drives. Most are husbands or wives, mothers or fathers, friends, neighbors, workers, or family members who have a need to relinquish control of some aspects of their lives to someone they trust. It isn't a sex thing...it's a condition of the heart.

 

[Etoile]

Bandit...one thing we have in common...i too hate thinking about the "what if?"...what if something happens to Daddy? what will i do? what will become of me? if i thought about such things too much i wouldn't be able to function, wouldn't be able to enjoy what we have or see the beauty in us, because i would have so much dread of the potential future. to answer the question, i just don't know. don't know what i would do, don't know how i would go on or why. i truly would see no reason, no purpose in my existence anymore. after all, my life's purpose now is serving him. if he is gone...there is no more need for me. so no, i do not see myself surviving without my Master. primarily because i would lack the will to survive without him. as for the resources of life...working, driving, money...i do have secretarial-type job skills...beyond those, no. i do not know how to drive. and i do not have money of my own obviously, as i am a slave. but i do know that my Master has taken measures to have me well provided for should something happen to him. i view this as a waste of his time, energy and money as i don't see myself sticking around without him here to love and serve. but he is far more practical than i and makes arrangements for such things.

osg, have you read the Delia Day thread? Take a peek in if you haven't. You make some statements that I can easily imagine her making, too.