catalina_francisco
Happily insatiable always
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2002
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Chicklet said:Originally Posted by Penalt
Chicklet, would you perhaps think then that certain people have built-in or genetic tendancies to aspects of BDSM?
No.
If you want to pull it from that line, I don't think it's genetic, but it could possibly be something built in by how you're raised. My roommate and I were discussing this last night, because I, for instance, was only spanked ONCE as a child. And I don't think that I would or could possibly like it in adult life if it'd ever happened in childhood. My roommate, on the other hand, was spanked OFTEN, and thinks that she associates her spankings in adult life as proof of love, like her parents gave her.
An example of what I'm talking about could be, I have been medicated for depression in the past. My mother also has depression. It can be caused by a shortage of enzymes in your brain or whatnot, and I thought for a long time that this was proof that it was a genetic disorder. HOWEVER, now I think that I had depression because my mother raised me to look at everything negatively. Negative thinking is something you learn from your parents, and it's very hard to break.
So, I used to think the depression I had was genetic, and now I think it was a learned behavior.
I don't think it's genetically built in to any of us to be any more submissive than any other animal might be.
Kat42 said:Well, I am probably a sub, and I am usually in trouble for being a rebel of some sort. Perhaps it is just that all of us, even subs, have a limit, even unconscious. My relationship with Goddess seems to reside at this line, where I am going to rebel any second, and where surrender is a task I must accomplish.
I have noticed that, for instance, beatings have three phases, the first is the blissful warmth of filling my desire to feel the lash. Then the struggle and revolt of the growing pain and warmth turned to incredible heat, then, finally, the collapse into surrender when I finally realize I can do nothing but accept it.
Goddess seeks out this experience in everything. Giving me what fills my needs to serve is easy to do, but asking me to serve in some way I don't *appreciate* is where She finds true surrender, constant and on going.
SteamyChik said:Cymbidia said about Gor: However, and i don't say this lightly, i respect SteamyChik as someone who doesn't seem to be some simpering little pretender subbie and so, for her sake, i'm giving this whole subject another (and open-minded) look.
R - E - S - P - E - C - T I got some! Yea!
I think it is easier to look at the similarities of Gor and BDSM than the differences, because really, there aren’t that many differences.
First though, a disclaimer – IRC Gor is not the same as real life Gor. Because IRC is cyber-based, necessarily the ability to write descriptively and entertainingly is a must for any would be Gorean IRC slave. For anyone interested or involved in real life submission, IRC Gor is beyond silly. I have done my share of taking 30 minutes to serve a glass of paga (beer) while laughing my head off. IRC Gor is not the best place to obtain a realistic view of Gor. End disclaimer.
In Gor and BDSM, both incorporate communication, trust, negotiation, and commitment. Just like in BDSM, Gorean lifestylers communicate. That ongoing communication begins to establish the trust that is necessary to take it further. Just like in BDSM, Gorean’s both Masters and slaves, must establish trust. Just like in BDSM, Gorean slave girls would never submit to just any so-called Master without that initial foundation of communication and trust being established. And just like in BDSM, there are girls that will throw themselves at anyone’s feet just to get what they want and need, usually to their own (and the poor dom/master/top’s) regret. However, once that trust is established, just like in BDSM relationships, a song-and-dance of negotiation takes place. Now here is where things might differ. Negotiation means different things to different people. Some people negotiate a written contract. Verbal negotiations work for some. With a few, the trust is so ingrained by the time the negotiation should take place, there are no verbal negotiations – but, they know each other so well, there is a trust that neither would knowingly or purposefully hurt the other. In my instance, I am married to my Master and have been for 21 years. The concept of him using his dominance over me to hurt me, just because we are Gorean, is as inconceivable to me as Creidhne hurting you would be to you. Moving along, just like in BDSM, there is a commitment between the dom/Master and sub/slave. And just like in BDSM, that commitment is there until either party decides to end it. Because for all its reputation, Gorean lifestylers are very aware that real slavery, the kind where one person completely controls everything about another person, including life, is not feasible or even wanted in today’s world. Just like in BDSM, we consider that type of control abuse and against the law. Communication, trust, negotiation, and commitment are major similarities between BDSM and Gorean.
There are some differences between Gor and BDSM, although if looked at it closely – not really. A few of the differences are the controversy over safe words, the “but-will-you-kill-steal-etc-if-your-Gorean-Master-tells-you-too” question, the “but-we-live-in-the-U.S.-not-some-fictitious-planet-created-by-a-nut” accusation, total power exchange is it real or memorex, and the favorite – “if-you-are-a-Gorean-slave-then-suck-my-dick” attempt. Can't forget the difference between "play" and "punishment".
First, the safe word thing. Gorean’s are very fond of saying we do not use safe words. The slave is totally at the mercy of her Master. In my experience, I have never been around a Gorean slave girl that was not able to beg, plead, or scream her way out of any type of activity if she was really upset. Just like in BDSM, a Master (like a dom) would not purposely break his toy. He is concerned and loving and willing to stop any activity that seems to be upsetting his girl. Just like in BDSM, there are Master’s that will abuse their sub, but then, just like in BDSM, we see that as abuse and illegal as much as the next person. So, Gorean slave girls may not have a safe-word per se, but believe me – they do have a safe-look, safe-moan, or safe-expression that works just the same. It’s a semantics thing.
The “but-will-you-kill-steal-gossip-etc-if-your-Gorean-Master-tells-you-too” question is really not valid either. cymbidia, you just recently went through this same type of accusation because of your lifestyle. The same answers of why this is not so works for Gor also. First off, Gorean Master’s would never require anything illegal of their slaves. This would break the trust and therefore the bond, and therefore the relationship. Gorean slave girls may appear to put up with a lot, but in the end, they have the final say as to when it ends. And just like in BDSM, if a woman doesn’t know when something has gone from consensual to abuse, she needs help.
The “but-we-live-in-the-U.S.-not-some-fictitious-planet-created-by-a-nut” accusation is amusing as well. Gorean lifestylers incorporate what works for them out of the Gorean books. The Gorean books are really good at showing a loving Man/woman domination – yes, most of the time the Master was quite in love with his slave. And they treated them with loving sternness, patience and appropriate punishment when necessary – just like the dom/sub power exchange in BDSM. Just like in BDSM though, they throw out the ridiculous and keep the stuff that works for them, turns them on and fulfills their fantasies, all within the bounds of normal laws.
Total power exchange, living the life 24/7, has long been a controversy. I’m not sure I can answer it! However, I know that in a married Gorean relationship, there are times that he does the dishes and the laundry, and I handle the finances. There are many times that the weekends are the only chance we get to immerse ourselves in the Gorean lifestyle. The rest of the time it’s a tickle at the edge of our conscience, an anticipation of the night and closed bedroom doors, a knowing smile at an office party, a subtle expression that elicits an equally subtle reaction when among “vanilla” people. Just like BDSMr’s that live 24/7, it doesn’t mean that every move and breath is commanded as much as it is a mindset, the awareness that the domination is always there, even if hidden out of necessity.
My favorite is “if-you-are-a-Gorean-slave-then-suck-my-dick”. As a Gorean slave, I give my trust to my Master. He is the only one I am responsible for pleasing. He is the only one I need to obey. He would never put me at risk for disease and would never share me sexually with another. This is evident in the Gor books also; the Master’s rarely shared their slaves sexually with other men. Along those same lines, unless my Master commands me too, I do not even have to acknowledge other Masters/doms in any other way than basic politeness. If anything, Gorean Master’s would never ask a slave to do anything unless it was his own slave, or he had permission from the slave’s Master. This is much stricter in real life Gorean than anything I have seen in the BDSM real life world.
My Master wanted me to insert here that there is a big difference in the way punishment is used between Gor and BDSM. Gorean’s use punishment as a deterrent to disobedience. It is not fun, it is not “playing or scening” or a way to get into headspace – it is mentally and physically painful. For Goreans, the mental D/s aspect takes precedence over the S/m aspects of BDSM. It is not possible to be a SAM (smart-ass-masochist) Gorean slave. Gorean slaves try to be pleasing because that is what they enjoy. If they didn’t enjoy it, they would not try to be Gorean slaves. Master says that doesn’t mean that slaves don’t have their rebellious moments, (now why did he say that? ) just that the majority of the time, a slave enjoys her slavery. Along the same lines, this doesn’t mean that Gorean Master’s won’t “play” with their slaves. A Gorean Master enjoys making his slave dance for him under the whip, enjoys watching her body respond to the pleasure of the pain. It is often used as a reward for being found very pleasing. Many Gorean Master's and slave girls would leave the Gorean lifestyle if the infliction of pain (which is a large part of BDSM) was the main part of the Gorean lifestyle also.
So to sum up this really lengthy Gorean explanation, there is not that many differences between the Gorean lifestyle and the BDSM lifestyle except the way we describe things and the jargon. Gor is yet another way to practice BDSM with the emphasis on the D/s. If there is a difference that anyone thinks is glaring between BDSM and Gor, please ask and I'll see if I can address it - or undress it
Steamy