The Singer & the Song

[dr_mabeuse]

I'm not sure "static" is the right word here Wills. I'm thinking of the difference between Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" and "Fur Elise." They are two pieces of music that are anything but static, yet they convey two seperate moods, (at least to me.) I think Beethoven was feeling two seperate emotions while composing these pieces as well, otherwise, why the audible difference?

And yes, I think it IS the form of expression (writing) that turns the question back on the writer. Same can be said of the composer or painter.

I think any talk of emotionality in today's society is approached with fear and loathing, unfortunately. Why NOT ask the author how the work moved them emotionally? Is it any different than asking an erotica writer if the piece turned them on or not? It's almost like feelings are too personal, but a physiological reaction is not. What an odd dichotomy.

A clarification: I was originally asking whether the content of an author’s stories affects your opinions of him or her as a person. Asking whether the way a person writes affects your opinion of him as a writer is kind of silly.

As for emotionalism, I’ve written stories and I’ve written music and I think the part that emotion plays in their creation is very much overstated. The idea comes first. You ask any writer how he felt when he wrote a story and I’ll bet you anything that he’ll just tell you “busy”. You can talk about how he intended the story to make the reader feel, but writing is very cerebral and requires a pretty clear head. Emotion has very little to do with it.

Maybe poets write out of an attempt to capture emotion, but I think most writers and composers write things a certain way out of a sense of “rightness”, not because they were feeling sad or happy.

---dr.M.

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[shereads]

I read non-consent stories, but I would hope that someone who knows my reading habits wouldn't assume that I go around hoping to be raped. I know the difference between rape fantasies - great sex without guilt or responsibility - and the repugnant reality of rape.

By the same token, I don't make the assumption that writers who do the non-consent theme are rapists at heart. My only assumption about these writers as individuals is that their sex fantasies are nicely in alignment with mine.

In fact, I don't think I've ever walked away from an erotic story on any theme thinking, "That bastard (bitch) is dangerously twisted." But I've read a few stories in the non-consent and BDSM categories that were intended to be erotic and were too extreme for my taste - and in those cases, I'd have to say, yes, I assumed the stories were an expression of genuine contempt for, or even hatred of, women/men/sex partners of any sort.

To be fair, I don't read stories in categories that don't interest me to begin with. You authors do, because you're interested in each other's work and maybe a teeeeensy bit competitive sometimes too.

So I have no idea whether I'd be more judgemental about the character of a writer whose sexual fantasies don't mirror my own.

Except for the foot fetishists. They all clearly represent a danger to society and should be locked up before they kidnap Jimmy Choo.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Okay, let me get down to cases.

What would you think of a person who seems reasonably bright and articulate, well-adjusted and normal as far as you can tell through email, but who consistently writes stories involving some pretty elaborately sadistic acts agaiunst members of the opposite sex.

When you ask this person about the stories, they just say that they're only fantasies, that everyone has fantasies of power and revenge against the opposite sex, the only difference is that this person expresses them safely in writing.

Is this the kind of person you'd like to get to know better?

And it's not a trick question.

---dr.M.

 

[damppanties]

I think writing, like any other kind of art, reflects the author in some way, shape, or form. Sure they may not DO the things they write about in real life, but they entertain an IDEA about them, or they wouldn't be exploring them with their writing.

Does that mean that you think they endorse that idea or are in favour of it just because they have written about it?
And just because they entertain a (fictional) idea about something, is it enough to form an opinion about them based on that?

SO you had BETTER judge the artist by their work. ..or their work is pointless.

Do you mean if I write about something which you dislike, you will dislike me?
Or if you draw something which I hate, I would hate you?

it IS all personal.
it is one person judging another.
you judge ME as "stupid" because of something YOU personally perceive as stupid.....one does not have to be in anothers presence to make those assessments...though they may not be entirely accurate...they are indeed PERSONAL....they are part of how we look at people.


you MUST.

I "judge" everyone here...and so do you...you LIE if you do not.

you like some and not others..you think some are clever some less so....

personal schmershonal.

rhino,

I think we have to separate posts on the boards and stories here. Do you think the same way about both?

I would judge a person by the content of his posts, not by the content of his stories.

Do the contents of an author's stories affect how you view that author on a personal level?

No. The way they write does.

The words may arouse certain feelings in me - disgust, arousal, anger, sympathy, whatever... but they are definitely the words on a page. I do not have the same feelings for/against the writer for making me feel a particular way about what he has written.

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[damppanties]

I think they are curious about it. I think they are exploring their own feelings and ideas about it if they are writing about it. If what they are writing about is personally disturbing to me, that's enough to give me pause, yes.

I agree with your first sentence. I disagree with the second - particularly about feelings. To use myself as an example, I have a vague vomity feeling when I think about incest. I am actually thinking about writing an incest story and have a kind of outline about it too. It is not about my feelings, I know exactly where I stand. It is basically to see whether I have it in me to write about it ccinvincingly and even though I do not feel for the subject.

My WRITING is different from 'ME'.

If that's all I have to go on? Yes. It might be 1/10th of the opinion I will eventually have of this person, but it's still a part of the opinion I hold about them. The trick is being open to the possibility your opinion could change or grow over time.


No. I just won't feel as inclined to get to know you any better.

Fair enough.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I still believe that an author's writing DOES affect our opinion of the author. If it does not..then the writing is so much "wallpaper". If it does not come from YOU...then it has no business being.

I also say that we are lying to ourselves and others if we say that we can TOTALLY disassociate the creation from the creator.

This is different than saying that an author's work is a mirror of them.

rhino-passion shows

I think that a person is reflected in what they write, but not necessarily by the *plot* of the story. Within the story its self you can often see certain assumptions (racist assumptions often show up in inter-racial for example. It's not when the character is written as racist it's when certain attitudes are obviously so ingrained in the person writing them that they assume that the truth of there thinking is obvious to all and doesn't need to be explained)

Another example that I can think of is my bf, used to write stories just for me that were often rough, dirty, and full of S&M, humiliation ect. *Yet* I could always see in them love and affection. The plot of the story doesn't tell you that much about a person. Anne Rule writes true murder mysteries, I don't think it means she wants to kill, kill kill. But I'm sure that much of her personality and beliefs are reflected within her work.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Okay, let me get down to cases.

What would you think of a person who seems reasonably bright and articulate, well-adjusted and normal as far as you can tell through email, but who consistently writes stories involving some pretty elaborately sadistic acts agaiunst members of the opposite sex.

When you ask this person about the stories, they just say that they're only fantasies, that everyone has fantasies of power and revenge against the opposite sex, the only difference is that this person expresses them safely in writing.

Is this the kind of person you'd like to get to know better?

And it's not a trick question.

---dr.M.

I think it's a great question.

And the answer is... it depends.

as I said in my other post, I would be looking for other things in the story- other hints to their personality beyond the mere plot. I would have to say that I would be cautious- as I think you need to be cautious with anybody online. I wouldn't fly out to meet them in a strange city just like in their story about the kidnapped girl turned love slave thinking- after all it's just a story In other words I wouldn't bend over backwards trying to prove that the story did *not* prejudice me. I would have to take each case individually and see what kind of general feel I got about it.

 

[sweetnpetite]

For instance does their writing/character seem cold and devoid of emotion? Does the character seem to resemble them in other ways (from what I know about the person?) Are the stories campy, sci-fi, realistic, ect.? When they post do they seem to be holding something back? does it seem like it could be related? I"m a firm beiliever that you have to trust your instincts, sometimes your subconscience picks up on these details that you conscience mind may miss,

And keep in mind- criminals and other 'baddies' are just as likely to be articulate and intellegent as anybody. (Trust me I know- I'm a lunatic)

 

[A7inchPhildo]

For the record, I don't recall ever having written an incest story. I'm not philosophically opposed to writing one, it's just that the subject has no appeal for me. So unless my memory fails me (which is entirely possible), you have me mixed up with someone else.

---dr.M.

Sorry dr.M.,

Edited my post on this thread.

In fact I did have you confused. I found it rather odd when scanning the new stories to see an incest story by you. This came shortly after the big incest wars on the AH So I read it. By the way I did send you feedback. Just not to you [laughing]

Spent the last half hour looking for this story. I was certain it was you. In fact it was "dr mabuse SOI " Seems that is all this person writes. Honest mistake.


Well at least I did not think of you differently because of some other authors story. If that is any consolation.

My appologies, Phildo

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[Madame Manga]

Okay, let me get down to cases.

What would you think of a person who seems reasonably bright and articulate, well-adjusted and normal as far as you can tell through email, but who consistently writes stories involving some pretty elaborately sadistic acts agaiunst members of the opposite sex.

When you ask this person about the stories, they just say that they're only fantasies, that everyone has fantasies of power and revenge against the opposite sex, the only difference is that this person expresses them safely in writing.

Is this the kind of person you'd like to get to know better?

And it's not a trick question.

---dr.M.

I'd be disturbed by the disconnect alone. That is, if the stories truly betrayed a sexually sadistic bent on the part of the writer--I've read things that were obviously meant to be scary but didn't get there because of the author's lack of real imagination in that area. No, not everyone has detailed fantasies of sexual torture. Tarring the whole human race as self-justification sends up a red flag all on its own. Your theoretical author is even acknowledging that he is not just trying to get into the head of a sadist as an exercise--the fantasies are his own. Sorry: end of the line. But this is academic, since I would not have read the stories in the first place, nor would I have spoken to the author.

As for seemingly well-adjusted: I have no reason to trust the way people sound in their postings. Hell, I don't trust people in person until I have good reason to do so. True psychopaths are the most charming people you will ever meet. That's how they get things done.

MM

 

[Quasimodem]

To go back, you cannot compare a jam session to writing, nor creative writing to even a structured performance. It is apples and oranges.

One is a performance, the other is a record.

If you must compare the two, try comparing a written to an oral speech.

When you give a speech, you might come prepared, every word written down, rehearsed, even to some voice inflection, and dramatic pauses. Alternately, you may come with only your main points outlined, and wing it.

In a speech, you can do that, and if you are a good public speaker, you may get away with it. If you come with a fully-written speech, you may find that your audience does not respond as expected. In that case, granting glibness, you may be able to tailor your script to your audience, as you go. In that case, the speech, in the mouth of a agile speaker, can become better than the original script from which it is being "performed."

A written speech (or editorial, or essay) can be composed to appeal to the kind of reader who is expected to be exposed to the speech. It can be written so as to anticipate the opinions of the readers, and the responses they may have to the arguments set forth. If those expectations are erroneous, however, there is nothing that can be done, to adapt the written communication. It is a record, not a performance, and by the time of its being "published," can no longer be changed.

To compare the strengths and weaknesses of the two, will only confuse the issue.

A speech writer will polish his script, until each point and ever phrase is in the proper place, using the most arresting, clear, convincing terms of which he can conceive. Then, the person who is to make the speech practises his delivery, until he can deliver it smoothly and persuasively. If he runs into an unanticipated audience, the speaker may make changes extemporarily, but at that point, he is long past any writing function, and into the performance phase.

Also, he is more liable to run afoul of misunderstanding if the speech is at all contentious. Just one or two misspoken words, can alter the meaning enough to – if you will pardon the expression – queer his pitch.


Another point was being made though the use of the old professorial question was: "What did the author mean by that?" Which is a good method of trying to engage students in the literature they are studying. Unfortunately, that question is often an academic misinterpretation.

Quite frequently, what the author "meant" outside of the plot or character driven needs of his story, is to place his story as close as possible to what is currently successful, matching trends in the market, as well as many other forces.

A commercial writer, usually "means" what the person paying his salary wishes him to convey.

Even here in Literotica, market demands are felt.

One author complained that his story was rejected for too much violence, Either he had "meant" violence, or had overlooked the violence in his story. Now, either he must remove it, or take his story elsewhere. Another author complains that he can't do a realistic "First Time" story, because few people experience their first time when both are over eighteen? Still, that is all the market will accept, and they must write their story to that reflect that market force.

Finally, someone plans to write an incest story, not because they are drawn to incest but to see if they are capable of writing one successfully. Why would this writer work on something he does not "mean?" For one thing, that is where the high rated story may most readily be found. Since ratings and feedback are all one gets in lieu of payment, the reason why is obvious.

In the case of "Survivor Contestants" this situation becomes almost mandatory. The writer is being paid neither for successful work, nor penalized for unsuccessful writing. Can you blame him for trying to extend himself into other fields?

These are the "market forces" which drive the creative writers, even here at Literotica. Draw conclusions at your peril, about what compels one writer to enter a particular category of story, unless he tells you. Then, you may, but only if you believe him.

And you still could be wrong.

 

[shereads]

When you ask this person about the stories, they just say that they're only fantasies, that everyone has fantasies of power and revenge against the opposite sex, the only difference is that this person expresses them safely in writing.

First, I'd have to question that assumption.

I've never had a sexual fantasy about revenge against the opposite sex (sure, the usual fantasies about seeing some asshole at the office get screwed like he'd screwed everyone else, but those were not sexual fantasies). So I'd already be in an argument, and without even knowing the details of these elaborately sadistic fantasies.

And I'd wonder - If this is his "safe outlet" for genuine sadism, what happens if he gets writer's block? Is he dangerous?

But I'd also have to know what you're defining as sadistic. I've learned from my own experience at Literotica that the line between what is sadistic and what is erotic doesn't just vary from one person to the next; it varies for me, over time, as I begin to accept that certain things are "normal," and to look for something edgier the next time.

I think it very much depends on how characters in these stories are developed and portrayed. In the hands of two different authors, the same act can seem sadistic or simply dominant. The writers I enjoy are those whose writing makes it clear that they see some humanity in both participants - both the "victim" and the perpetrator. These writers demonstrate a degree of empathy - not sympathy, but empathy - for all of the participants, whether it's the one holding the whip or the one feeling it.

The writers I consider sadists, and simply don't enjoy reading, are those who consistently dehumanize the "bottom" characters in their stories. Unless I had a reason to befriend people like that, I'd rather not. It doesn't mean they really are cold-hearted perverts who harbor a secret desire to torture women and are safe to be around as long as they have this "safe" outlet for their need - It just means that there's an indicator.

If I had to invite a screenwriter to come over for dinner and tell my nephew a bedtime story, and my choices included Quinten Tarentino, I'd scroll down the list for somebody whose creative choices don't make me want to throw up. It doesn't mean that I don't appreciate his talent, or that I think he really does fantasize about locking Bruce Willis up in the basement of his Nazi memorabilia shop and turning him into his captive bitch - but he's thought about it.

 

[Wills]

Congrats

Congrats. Dr M

Readers Choice Award Winner for November.

 

[Guest]

 

[damppanties]

rhino-does that clarify?

Yep. A lot. I took the doc's question slightly different than you did. I did not think he asked about a 'simple and slight' judgement. I thought he asked about prejudice and actual avoidance of the person on the boards and/or dislike based on what they wrote. And my views are slightly different than yours on the topic.

On another note, you look quite cute in your AV.

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

DOCTOR M

 

[raphy]

I judge people intellectually on the mechanical content of their stories. I don't think I make any character judgements based on the plots of those stories.

 

[Guest]

Raff, you just reminded me. I judge all Lit. people by their AVs. Simple. (Ah, recalling your boots now...)

Perdita

 

[raphy]

Raff, you just reminded me. I judge all Lit. people by their AVs. Simple. (Ah, recalling your boots now...)

Perdita

Repost for 'dita

 

[Guest]

Repost for 'dita

Muwaaahh!

saving and printing,

'dita