"To keep the review thread clean..."

[MungoParkIII]

Would you like to see....

Here you go.

I'm sure she would appreciate you whoring her work in the face of being confronted over doing so.

I have her permission to post this poem. That is the point I am making, here you go accusing me of something you know nothing about, just like you did with Angeline. Perhaps an apology would be in order...

 

[annaswirls]

Most of what I have read pertains to classrooms -- I think it would be a very difficult argument to get literotica into an educational setting, although I have learned MUCH here including some invaluable massage techniques

I see the posting of poems here as a form of entertainment not education. Rarely is there any real discussion that follows the post. I know I have posted a poem because I like them and want to share in the enjoyment.

I think, ethically speaking, not legally (I have not figured that out and am not even sure if that is what is important) the practice should be:

~If at all possible, contact the writer first and ask permission. It is their work and they should have a say in where it shows up.

~Post a section of the poem along with a link to (if possible) the original source so people can click to see the rest if they are intersted. That would be more like a little ad.

~If you are typing it from a book, cite the book, and perhaps post a link to where the book can be sold?



Ange, I have no doubt that you have vast experience and knowledge in this subject and that there are grey areas. But bottom line, there is one law, right? Of course it is up for interpretation. I am just not so sure that posting a poem in its entirety by a current, living, breathing, writing poet without writing for their permission is the right thing to do.

If I were teaching a class and had a bulliten board set up for distance learning, then that is a different story. Whatever people say, this forum is mostly a social forum, a social forum centered around poetry. I think that is GREAT. I would not still be here if I didn't think so.

At any rate. What does Laurel say?

 

[annaswirls]

......... answered my own question

 

[MungoParkIII]

*************

 

[annaswirls]

deleted-- this was another link for educators

 

[Cub4ucme]

That's fine!

That doesn't change a thing.

You acted then asked.

If you don't get that then I can't help you.


I notice how you included her response but, not your
intital email to her as well. I'm not hear to play games with you.

Her poem was posted and then you reposted it as if to say,
"Fuck You" and you did so in violation of copyright law.

I provide you with the site and email and then you email the
author as if you haven't posted the poem yet and also offer
to provide the link to her poetry.

It's obvious she would say yes. Her site has the entire collection
on it for free. That wasn't my point. She expressed that prior
to posting her poetry elsewhere you email her for consent.

That was my point!

Now, you have consent which I could have told you would not
be a very difficult thing to get based on the fact that she offers
the poems for free on the net and the nature/content of the poems
themselves.

It's about respect for the artist and allowing the creator of the work
to make the call.

In this case her poetry fits the readership and it will only bring her more
exposure so she has agreed to it.

The thing is-------------------- YOU GAVE HER THE CHOICE!!

What about that is so fucking hard to comprehend!


So, save your "So There" attitude and follow that same procedure in
the future and I will be the very first person to tell you that you
are then promoting both the art and the artist.

best,
andy

 

[Guest]

Poof!
Twas' magically delicious.

 

[annaswirls]

I like this link because it is not written for educators.... which in this forum, we really are not.

Copyright Law of the United States of America

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

 

[annaswirls]

Thank you LeBroz for the mention of "Youchouli" in your review today and also much thanks to those who took the time to comment.

Hey, what do you think this is, the "New Poems Review comment thread or something?"

heheheh

just kidding.

really, this copyright stuff should be its own thread.

 

[TheRainMan]

Since you are here, I would like to hear your opinion on whether or not it is a good or bad idea to post other poet's work here without their permission. I know you regularly take down your work when it is published. How would you feel if one of us took a poem of yours that we read in your book, and posted it without permission? Or if another site did so, a perfectly sweet and kind person who genuinely just wanted to share your work because they thought you were good-- a place where the people did not know you-- lets say

smuterotica.com

You have had contact with many widely published, "legitimate" poets. What is the buzz?

the buzz is that having a poem posted by someone who wants to share it on a forum or blog is a-ok (provided it is a poem that has already appeared on the internet). it's been done to me, and to others i know, and from what i can tell it is generally viewed as flattering, and as free advertising. once a poem has used up its "first internet rights" at a journal, a poet can only submit it to journals that are willing to publish such poems anyway, so no rights are lost.

we're talking about stray poems, one here, one there. taking an entire book, or even a series of poems, would be another matter. especially if they came from a book that is presently for sale. so would any use that is intended to garner profit. simply putting up one poem to be read for enjoyment, i do not see as a problem or violation of any kind. i think that qualifies as "fair use."

others may feel differently, obviously. no one that i know personally does, though.

 

[annaswirls]

Thanks! Good point on the first internet rights too. Very good point.

Would you prefer to be asked permission or simply let you know they were going to post it? I am not trying to be a bitch, or to obsess on this, just to see things from various points of view.

the buzz is that having a poem posted by someone who wants to share it on a forum or blog is a-ok (provided it is a poem that has already appeared on the internet). it's been done to me, and to others i know, and from what i can tell it is generally viewed as flattering, and as free advertising. once a poem has used up its "first internet rights" at a journal, a poet can only submit it to journals that are willing to publish such poems anyway, so no rights are lost.

we're talking about stray poems, one here, one there. taking an entire book, or even a series of poems, would be another matter. especially if they came from a book that is presently for sale. so would any use that is intended to garner profit. simply putting up one poem to be read for enjoyment, i do not see as a problem or violation of any kind. i think that qualifies as "fair use."

others may feel differently, obviously. no one that i know personally does, though.

 

[Guest]

Poof!
Twas' magically delicious.

 

[Cub4ucme]

the buzz is that having a poem posted by someone who wants to share it on a forum or blog is a-ok (provided it is a poem that has already appeared on the internet). it's been done to me, and to others i know, and from what i can tell it is generally viewed as flattering, and as free advertising. once a poem has used up its "first internet rights" at a journal, a poet can only submit it to journals that are willing to publish such poems anyway, so no rights are lost.

we're talking about stray poems, one here, one there. taking an entire book, or even a series of poems, would be another matter. especially if they came from a book that is presently for sale. so would any use that is intended to garner profit. simply putting up one poem to be read for enjoyment, i do not see as a problem or violation of any kind. i think that qualifies as "fair use."

others may feel differently, obviously. no one that i know personally does, though.

This is about as damaging as one can get.

You have done more damage to poets in one post here than I have seen in quite some time. I don't wish to start an argument with you but, who the hell are you to speak for what is generally accepted in the poetic arena?

It's offensive and absurd that you offer such an opinion as if you are speaking
for the community of poets at large.

You are dead wrong.

Dead wrong, and I don't stutter.

It's a shame that people like you rise to small hills in forums such as these; to the point that your voice expands and you have some influence.

You're they type of person that the world needs to kick in the head a few more times.

No honor, no fortitude, just an ego looking for a place where the sun shines all the time.

I concluded all of that based on one post.

If I'm wrong about any of it well, forgive me, but, I doubt that's the case.

best,
andy

 

[annaswirls]

Agreed, I was trying to be polite by directing it back to New Poems Review.

you wanna have sex?

 

[TheRainMan]

Thanks! Good point on the first internet rights too. Very good point.

Would you prefer to be asked permission or simply let you know they were going to post it? I am not trying to be a bitch, or to obsess on this, just to see things from various points of view.

you? a bitch? . . . never. you are so huggable sometimes i think i might break you.

given a choice, i would prefer to be asked, just to be sure it was a poem that has already appeared on the internet and not just in print -- though, someone posting a poem of mine that has only appeared in print would never be construed as having used up its 'first internet rights.' not by any editor i know, at any rate.

 

[annaswirls]

Andy,

Let me preface this by saying: I am not blindly defending a friend here or licking faces (well maybe Jamisons but I cannot help that) but I asked TRM for his opinion because I know he has his foot in that poetry circle you wrote about. He does have a feel for what is generally accepted. No, I am not a little fan sitting at the bottom of this hill you refer to...

Of course he does not speak for everyone, and did not claim to.

He has the right to express his opinion-- you cannot say someone's feelings about what happens to their own work is "dead wrong." You claimed to have insider information, apparently the people you hang with are different than the people Patrick has discussed this with. That is okay, you know?

This is about as damaging as one can get.

You have done more damage to poets in one post here than I have seen in quite some time. I don't wish to start an argument with you but, who the hell are you to speak for what is generally accepted in the poetic arena?

It's offensive and absurd that you offer such an opinion as if you are speaking
for the community of poets at large.

You are dead wrong.

Dead wrong, and I don't stutter.

It's a shame that people like you rise to small hills in forums such as these; to the point that your voice expands and you have some influence.

You're they type of person that the world needs to kick in the head a few more times.

No honor, no fortitude, just an ego looking for a place where the sun shines all the time.

I concluded all of that based on one post.

If I'm wrong about any of it well, forgive me, but, I doubt that's the case.

best,
andy

 

[TheRainMan]

. . . It's offensive and absurd that you offer such an opinion as if you are speaking
for the community of poets at large . . .

i speak only for myself. that should have been clear when i said "others may feel differently, obviously."

as far as your insults, they will go unanswered.

i'm not into that sort of thing.

carry on.

 

[annaswirls]

you? a bitch? . . . never. you are so huggable sometimes i think i might break you.

oh no chance of breaking me, I am far too padded besides these hormones have turned my joints to jelly. The other day I was walking, lost my footing (yes while walking) and felt myself fall to the ground without any control. Jelly I tell you.

given a choice, i would prefer to be asked, just to be sure it was a poem that has already appeared on the internet and not just in print -- though, someone posting a poem of mine that has only appeared in print would never be construed as having used up its 'first internet rights.' not by any editor i know, at any rate.

 

[Cub4ucme]

you? a bitch? . . . never. you are so huggable 'first internet rights.' not by any editor i know, at any rate.

This is quite revealing.

"First Internet Rights" is a contractual phrase used by small ezines and sites like poetry.com.

It's not a common phrase in agreements with credible publishers.
When a poet receives payment for a poem many times the
publisher will share future rights.

Once again, we are off on semantics.

All smoke and mirrors!!!!!!!

I reiterate: The posting (which is publishing) of poems copied and pasted in their entirety without permission from the owner or author is both immoral and illegal.


It's really frustrating, the politics you play here.

I wonder if some of you are so caught up in what rung you might
be on, in the perceived social ladder of this environment, that you
can't see the bugs upon your cheeks.

best,
andy

 

[MungoParkIII]

If you follow the link on my post, you will see I had the poet's email address prior to you "providing" it for me. As for my email to her, had you read the entire post you would have seen her response to me as well as my original email to her. After posting the emails I decided to remove them since, while I did receive permission to post her poem, I did not discuss posting her email.

As I said, sadly this is the internet and some people feel perfectly free to make unsubstantiated accusations.

 

[annaswirls]

Is "electronic rights" more familiar? I have read both terms many times, small ezines and big. It would not make sense for print publishers to use the term, would it? I thought we were mainly talking about copying poems from ezines, and pasting them here, no?

This is quite revealing.

"First Internet Rights" is a contractual phrase used by small ezines and sites like poetry.com.

It's not a common phrase in agreements with credible publishers.
When a poet receives payment for a poem many times the
publisher will share future rights.

Once again, we are off on semantics.

All smoke and mirrors!!!!!!!

I reiterate: The posting (which is publishing) of poems copied and pasted in their entirety without permission from the owner or author is both immoral and illegal.


It's really frustrating, the politics you play here.

I wonder if some of you are so caught up in what rung you might
be on, in the perceived social ladder of this environment, that you
can't see the bugs upon your cheeks.

best,
andy

 

[Cub4ucme]

Rainman,

You seem to miss the way of your own voice.

You started your reply (after receiving emails) with, "The Buzz is".

What buzz is that?

That's what I found offensive.

The buzz according to you?

Yes, I conclude that, later on in your post, after you made your
point.

There is no valid argument here.

Any real artist would defend my point without contention.

Is there gray areas?

Yes!.

Is there published poets that would be honored to have
their poetry posted her?

Yes!


That said, the poet should have the choice!


..........and what is that buzz you are talking about?

What is it based on and how can you support it?

I'd love to know, in the real sense of a worthwhile conversation.


I mean that sincerely.

All I am saying is; it isn't right to copy and paste poetry off the net without permission.


As a poet who I happen to think writes good poetry, you of all people should protect that right.

............and that is just MY OPINION!

best,
andy

 

[Angeline]

Most of what I have read pertains to classrooms -- I think it would be a very difficult argument to get literotica into an educational setting, although I have learned MUCH here including some invaluable massage techniques

I see the posting of poems here as a form of entertainment not education. Rarely is there any real discussion that follows the post. I know I have posted a poem because I like them and want to share in the enjoyment.

I think, ethically speaking, not legally (I have not figured that out and am not even sure if that is what is important) the practice should be:

~If at all possible, contact the writer first and ask permission. It is their work and they should have a say in where it shows up.

~Post a section of the poem along with a link to (if possible) the original source so people can click to see the rest if they are intersted. That would be more like a little ad.

~If you are typing it from a book, cite the book, and perhaps post a link to where the book can be sold?



Ange, I have no doubt that you have vast experience and knowledge in this subject and that there are grey areas. But bottom line, there is one law, right? Of course it is up for interpretation. I am just not so sure that posting a poem in its entirety by a current, living, breathing, writing poet without writing for their permission is the right thing to do.

If I were teaching a class and had a bulliten board set up for distance learning, then that is a different story. Whatever people say, this forum is mostly a social forum, a social forum centered around poetry. I think that is GREAT. I would not still be here if I didn't think so.

At any rate. What does Laurel say?

There are laws in the United States pertaining to print and digital publishing, of course. Like any laws, they are interpreted variously when court cases that pertain to them come up. Other countries have their own copyright laws, which may or may not agree (in whole or in part) with the USA. So legally there are gray areas. Ethically, it has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis, in my opinion.

So I'm not saying there aren't clear guidelines. And I am certainly not trying to suggest that I have "vast" knowledge and experience in this area. I don't. But I did work with the fair use guideline a lot. I even testified at a deposition on a fair use case once. In my experience, the single most important way to not violate copyright law is to credit the author.

And I guess we have a difference of opinion about education and entertainment. When I share a poem here, I hope the people who read it will not only be entertained but maybe think and try to learn from it. That's how I approach reading poetry. Maybe it's wrong of me to expect other people to see it the same way. I know what Lit is, and yet I think very highly of this forum--there are people here, like you among others--who stick around not only for entertainment, but to try to learn and grow with like-minded people. I think this forum is unique (maybe the Author's Hangout and the Discussion Circle are similar; I don't know) in that people here work together to try to improve their writing. It's why I have stayed and kept coming back all these years.

As for Laurel she does not try to micromanage this site as you probably know, not anymore. Her policy on photos and copyright is pretty clear and I know she wouldn't want people to do anything illegal. Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine. If people wanted to support a policy that follows steps like you suggested doing yourself, I expect she'd support it. But given that it isn't illegal, I am not sure I'd want a policy in place that would require Lauren, Eve and me (or whoever the forum mods are) to police the forum every time someone posts a poem. I have lots of esoteric fantasies, but being a cop isn't one of them.

 

[Cub4ucme]

So I'm not saying there aren't clear guidelines. And I am certainly not trying to suggest that I have "vast" knowledge and experience in this area. I don't. But I did work with the fair use guideline a lot. I even testified at a deposition on a fair use case once. In my experience, the single most important way to not violate copyright law is to credit the author.

This is another post based on defense and blantant ignorance.

It's almost as if you just won't (no matter the face you lose)
give in to something so simple and obvious.


Fair use, mostly, relates to the polices that were agreed upon
by representatives of the Literary community, attached to
Universities, for the sole intent of defending the need to
share copyrighted material, in the spirit of education.


If you read a bit more instead of coming across like you know
what you are talking about because you are in the industy,
you might gain more creaability.

Copying and pasting poetry here would never stand up in
court under the "Fair Use" guidlines. A sixth grader could
read the case history and the guidlines and conclude that
in a couple of hours.

So, with all your experience and your background, you still
try and hang on to some fruitless position.

What's worse? Well, you back it up based on your career
and exposure. That's the most disheartening side of it all.

best,
andy

 

[TheRainMan]

Rainman,

You seem to miss the way of your own voice.

You started your reply (after receiving emails) with, "The Buzz is".

What buzz is that?

That's what I found offensive . . .

no, my voice is fine. the thoroughness of your reading is not, however.

"the buzz" was referring to the question from annaswirls that i was answering. she asked "what is the buzz?" meaning what do the other published poets that i know and talk to think about the matter in question.

if you read back, you should understand that now, i would think.

and that kind of answers the rest of your post -- i was relating the general feeling of the published poets that i have spoken to, which certainly does not encompass the entire poetry world, and not the poetry circles you travel in, i would guess.