"To keep the review thread clean..."

[Minervous]

.....

 

[Minervous]

.....

 

[JOnceTwo]

Thank you Angeline for your comments on "Ember" in your review today, and especially for the criticism as well. Though re-reading it now, I see how you arrived at the theme that you carried away from the poem, it was not the idea that I was trying to convey.

I'd like to ask if anyone else also got the theme of rebuilding passion that Angeline did, or something else?

Also, I feel a little odd asking for an editor for poetry since it is generally so short, but do many of you out there use it for poetry? In general I don't like wasting peoples time, but I do know an extra few eyes can help polish a piece.

Also thanks to swalloedscream, and champange1982

 

[Angeline]

Thank you Angeline for your comments on "Ember" in your review today, and especially for the criticism as well. Though re-reading it now, I see how you arrived at the theme that you carried away from the poem, it was not the idea that I was trying to convey.

I'd like to ask if anyone else also got the theme of rebuilding passion that Angeline did, or something else?

Also, I feel a little odd asking for an editor for poetry since it is generally so short, but do many of you out there use it for poetry? In general I don't like wasting peoples time, but I do know an extra few eyes can help polish a piece.

Also thanks to swalloedscream, and champange1982

I'm so glad you posted this comment because it proves (at least to me) how subjective a reader's take on a poem can be. I did see it as building toward the rekindling of passion, and thought it worked very well (in spite of my provisos) in that regard. I've experienced readers understanding my own poems differently than I intended when I wrote them, so I appreciate how gracious you are in accepting my interpretation. It also says alot about the new poems recommendations: they are simply the reviewer's opinion and may not even represent what another reader sees in the poem, let alone what the poet meant. I think that's important to remember, considering how much emphasis some people place on those reviews.

Once a poem is published it takes on a life of its own as each reader brings his or her own unique perspective to it.

As far as editing, please consider posting your poem in one of the "workshop" threads (like "Poetry in Progress"). We do a lot of editing here and the workshopping threads, as well as the Poetry Discussion Circle, are designed to help poets with editing. There's a lot of support here; all you need to do is get involved with the forum. Also, we're (mostly) very nice people.

Nice to meet you and thank you for helping me remember that poetry is a pretty subjective business.

 

[normal jean]

does anyone know how a person can have poems on the new poem list, yet when I go to their bio page, and click submissions, all I get is " this user has no submissions yet"?

just wondering... it is this poet- kitschx

and I didnt know where to wonder for a question like this,, so I wandered in here to wonder....

 

[LeBroz]

does anyone know how a person can have poems on the new poem list, yet when I go to their bio page, and click submissions, all I get is " this user has no submissions yet"?

just wondering... it is this poet- kitschx

and I didnt know where to wonder for a question like this,, so I wandered in here to wonder....

Send a note to Literotica describing the problem.

It may be related to another recent upgrade, especially with the new search function. I noticed this after foehn2 commented that he couldn't find his submissions page and started a new one. I assume he meant his log in page, but when doing a search for foehn, the only item found was foehn2. His bio/submissions page is still here but can only be found by clicking on his name next to one of his old poems. I've also noticed this happening from time to time with new poets; their bio page exist but no submissions are listed.

I know this process of notifying Lit works; I've followed this process on a number of occasions and have seen fixes made each time.

Good luck.

.
.

 

[KOLKORE]

Sexism is alive and kicking,even a recommended reading

[QUOTE="...... blakesilverman[/URL] is worth a read for the language....."

Wildsweetone, I love what you write when it comes to poetry. Not so when it comes to at least your recommendation to the rap poem I quoted from your review. When recognized rappers acknowledge the eroding effects of the barrage of beaches and hoes in reference to women in rap lyrics it’s disappointing to see that no one speak up and say: enough is enough! This is not only degrading and offensive to women but it has been used endlessly in similarly unoriginal lyrics. If this is OK why shouldn’t we re institute other inflammatory adjectives that are now ‘not ok’ to be uttered and/or written? So all that remains legit now is to degrade women? Not blacks not Jews Not Native Americans –but its ok with women. I find myself repulsed by this crap - as a man; no as a human being. I find myself bothered (not for the first time) by the apathy of others.

 

[WickedEve]

[QUOTE="...... blakesilverman[/URL] is worth a read for the language....."

Wildsweetone, I love what you write when it comes to poetry. Not so when it comes to at least your recommendation to the rap poem I quoted from your review. When recognized rappers acknowledge the eroding effects of the barrage of beaches and hoes in reference to women in rap lyrics it’s disappointing to see that no one speak up and say: enough is enough! This is not only degrading and offensive to women but it has been used endlessly in similarly unoriginal lyrics. If this is OK why shouldn’t we re institute other inflammatory adjectives that are now ‘not ok’ to be uttered and/or written? So all that remains legit now is to degrade women? Not blacks not Jews Not Native Americans –but its ok with women. I find myself repulsed by this crap - as a man; no as a human being. I find myself bothered (not for the first time) by the apathy of others.

Everything in life is degrading and offensive--to someone.
I don't know a thing about rap, but I agree with WSO. This poem is still worth a read.

But please, stop calling me at work
Because that shit's embarrassing,
When the telephone rings
And you're saying Billy needs braces,
But like Bowie I'm going through changes,
Of address, that is,
Cuz I gotz to keep my biz-
Ness on the DL
So I'll see you in hell
Before you get a dime from me

 

[normal jean]

Thanks, Leon

 

[wildsweetone]

[QUOTE="...... blakesilverman[/URL] is worth a read for the language....."

Wildsweetone, I love what you write when it comes to poetry. Not so when it comes to at least your recommendation to the rap poem I quoted from your review. When recognized rappers acknowledge the eroding effects of the barrage of beaches and hoes in reference to women in rap lyrics it’s disappointing to see that no one speak up and say: enough is enough! This is not only degrading and offensive to women but it has been used endlessly in similarly unoriginal lyrics. If this is OK why shouldn’t we re institute other inflammatory adjectives that are now ‘not ok’ to be uttered and/or written? So all that remains legit now is to degrade women? Not blacks not Jews Not Native Americans –but its ok with women. I find myself repulsed by this crap - as a man; no as a human being. I find myself bothered (not for the first time) by the apathy of others.

did you just call me sexist and apathetic too? i guess you don't know me very well.

i recommended the submission for the language, not for the theme, nor for the poet who wrote the submission. i purposely made no comment on the submission except to recommend that others read it for the language because i felt that the way words were used were different to the normal run of the mill writing we see here in the new poems on Literotica.

this website is based in a country that allows free speech. it is not up to me to decide who should be allowed to say what about any given subject. nor is it up to me to decide how they should say it, though i often give my own opinion on suggested improvements for a submission that has been accepted here and i leave it up to the poet themselves to decide whether they take my suggestions on board or not.

Laurel and Manu have allowed that submission to be published on their website. i'd say they were the ones you should take this up with, not me.

i note in your own personal comment on this submission, you write 'I liked a lot in there.' at the beginning of your comment. perhaps you saw some language usage that i saw and thought interesting, unique, different.

for further information, in this poem the lyrical subject's 'you' is the whore, not all women. perhaps it says more about the lyrical subject than anyone or anything else.

thank you for your comment on my own poetry. i also would like you to know i enjoy reading your comments on poetry. you often give a perspective that is different to my own and that's good for me.

 

[KOLKORE]

'No problems', but I couldn't find the expletives in your quote...

Everything in life is degrading and offensive--to someone.
I don't know a thing about rap, but I agree with WSO. This poem is still worth a read.

But please, stop calling me at work
Because that shit's embarrassing,
When the telephone rings
And you're saying Billy needs braces,
But like Bowie I'm going through changes,
Of address, that is,
Cuz I gotz to keep my biz-
Ness on the DL
So I'll see you in hell
Before you get a dime from me

What do you do with a poem in which parts sound good and others are offensive. You say so. In my comments to the poem I said that I liked parts of the poem but the offensive terms he used sour it
You are the first I am hearing from who implies that there could be any controversy about the implications of ‘Ho’ and ‘bitch’ sprayed in rap lyrics. Moreover, I find it difficult to believe you would not feel offended if someone called you a whore, or described you as a whore, or claimed that all women are whores, which is in fact what this poem does.
Would you still hold the same relativistic view if expletives such as: ‘Nigger’ or ‘dirty Jew’ were splashed in poems (in a non critical context)? Somehow I doubt it.
Elsewhere both the public and rappers have distanced themselves and similarly protest any such expletives as found in this poem. Not so in this forum.

 

[KOLKORE]

It was exactly the language I was talking about

did you just call me sexist and apathetic too? i guess you don't know me very well.

i recommended the submission for the language, not for the theme, nor for the poet who wrote the submission. i purposely made no comment on the submission except to recommend that others read it for the language because i felt that the way words were used were different to the normal run of the mill writing we see here in the new poems on Literotica.

this website is based in a country that allows free speech. it is not up to me to decide who should be allowed to say what about any given subject. nor is it up to me to decide how they should say it, though i often give my own opinion on suggested improvements for a submission that has been accepted here and i leave it up to the poet themselves to decide whether they take my suggestions on board or not.

Laurel and Manu have allowed that submission to be published on their website. i'd say they were the ones you should take this up with, not me.

i note in your own personal comment on this submission, you write 'I liked a lot in there.' at the beginning of your comment. perhaps you saw some language usage that i saw and thought interesting, unique, different.

for further information, in this poem the lyrical subject's 'you' is the whore, not all women. perhaps it says more about the lyrical subject than anyone or anything else.

thank you for your comment on my own poetry. i also would like you to know i enjoy reading your comments on poetry. you often give a perspective that is different to my own and that's good for me.

I was fully aware of the nature of your recommendation (language is culture and meaning and values it's all one; there is no language in the abstract). Recommending this poem or it’s language, without making any exception for the expletives included there is in my opinion, and even if unintentionally, an acceptance of a blatant sexist and offensive poem.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with freedom of speech! I never complained about the right of a hateful person to embarrass himself in writing this kind of poem. It is every one's civil duty though to protest against hate speech. Protesting against this kind of hate speech in rap is done everywhere but in this forum.
You are right; I don't know you (except from the poems). I was upset about the lack of any reservation on account of the expletives. You are allowed of course to the narrow interpretation of a single particular whore the poem is presumably alluding to, although in my opinion the text in this poem does not support it. You can read as an additional reference the other poem in the same venue with the same "whores"). This use of "whores" is generic to women in this context as it is with other rappers. Ignoring it is wrong. Look around you as to how women are being treated. Every thing is connected.

For all I know it could have been an omission on your part. Anyway, I don't judge people just specific actions.

 

[wildsweetone]

I was fully aware of the nature of your recommendation (language is culture and meaning and values it's all one; there is no language in the abstract). Recommending this poem or it’s language, without making any exception for the expletives included there is in my opinion, and even if unintentionally, an acceptance of a blatant sexist and offensive poem.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with freedom of speech! I never complained about the right of a hateful person to embarrass himself in writing this kind of poem. It is every one's civil duty though to protest against hate speech. Protesting against this kind of hate speech in rap is done everywhere but in this forum.
You are right; I don't know you (except from the poems). I was upset about the lack of any reservation on account of the expletives. You are allowed of course to the narrow interpretation of a single particular whore the poem is presumably alluding to, although in my opinion the text in this poem does not support it. You can read as an additional reference the other poem in the same venue with the same "whores"). This use of "whores" is generic to women in this context as it is with other rappers. Ignoring it is wrong. Look around you as to how women are being treated. Every thing is connected.

For all I know it could have been an omission on your part. Anyway, I don't judge people just specific actions.

i understand your meaning and believe you have every right to disagree with my recommendation.

i have no idea how i can recommend a poem for the way the words are used that will not include my agreement with the theme...

on further thinking, i could say, 'i disagree with the theme, but the use of language in this poem is interesting.' i feel however, that that would also not meet with your agreement. and suffice it to say, i don't believe any topic should be banned from being written about. all of life is the muscle for our messages. perhaps it is a good thing that somebody writes like this and somebody protests, loudly. it brings public awareness front and foremost and is that not something we are all easily able to achieve with our writing?

i am not here as a reviewer to make everyone agree with my reasoning or my intent. i am simply here to share my thoughts, or to help.

one other thing we might be able to agree upon, our emotions change when reading this submission. that's a sign of interesting writing.

I was fully aware of the nature of your recommendation (language is culture and meaning and values it's all one; there is no language in the abstract).

i should have said i recommended the submission for its 'use of language'.

that was my mistake and i apologise.

 

[KOLKORE]

i understand your meaning and believe you have every right to disagree with my recommendation.

i have no idea how i can recommend a poem for the way the words are used that will not include my agreement with the theme...

on further thinking, i could say, 'i disagree with the theme, but the use of language in this poem is interesting.' i feel however, that that would also not meet with your agreement. and suffice it to say, i don't believe any topic should be banned from being written about. all of life is the muscle for our messages. perhaps it is a good thing that somebody writes like this and somebody protests, loudly. it brings public awareness front and foremost and is that not something we are all easily able to achieve with our writing?

i am not here as a reviewer to make everyone agree with my reasoning or my intent. i am simply here to share my thoughts, or to help.

one other thing we might be able to agree upon, our emotions change when reading this submission. that's a sign of interesting writing.


i should have said i recommended the submission for its 'use of language'.

that was my mistake and i apologise.

Actually, making a distinction would have made the whole difference. The problem with the use of this jargon is that it claims to have entered the lexicon and gaining a new and neutral meaning. Asking women - they deny it of course. Any ways -good exchange, and thanks for being open minded!

 

[champagne1982]

This isn't about the poems anymore...

 

[wildsweetone]

This isn't about the poems anymore...

no, and i apologise for that too. also to the Mods who will have to move the discussion out to the chit chat thread.

but it was something that needed clearing up. and i am glad to have learnt from the discussion.

 

[Tathagata]

no, and i apologise for that too. also to the Mods who will have to move the discussion out to the chit chat thread.

but it was something that needed clearing up. and i am glad to have learnt from the discussion.

word.

 

[Angeline]

no, and i apologise for that too. also to the Mods who will have to move the discussion out to the chit chat thread.

but it was something that needed clearing up. and i am glad to have learnt from the discussion.

I think we'll let it stand as a monument to your (all of you) unruliness.

 

[wildsweetone]

I think we'll let it stand as a monument to your (all of you) unruliness.

well really, it was Tath that messed up with his 'w' comment.



wow, unruly. i'm turning to the bad side fast!

 

[WickedEve]

Moreover, I find it difficult to believe you would not feel offended if someone called you a whore, or described you as a whore,

Oh, boy, are you talking to the wrong woman.

 

[Tathagata]

Oh, boy, are you talking to the wrong woman.

show him your chest

better yet show me your chest

 

[bogusbrig]

Thanks for the mention o my poem leBroz.

Kolklore, first, don't take this the wrong way, I have absolutely no problem with someone harshly criticizing any of my poems but I was somewhat bemused by your comment as there was no criticism of the poem it self and I can see there is plenty to criticize about it, you criticized the subject and my take on the subject. However, I'm not going to defend the structure and poetic value of the poem, as I said, I can see it is flawed and defending my poems doen't provoke enough energy in me to care but let me answer your comment which is...

It is with a lot of respect that I disagree with you LeBroz. BTW, anything wrong with allowing everyone reading your positive review of the poem? Why not post it here as well?
Back to the poem. I got it I got it. It's this that and the other from our beloved Seinfeld. Only there it was about Ellaine and Seinfeld intimate relationships, not about Democracy. I was actually saddened to read that this is how you see it. In my naivite I thought it's all about people going out participating asking about what bother them about what they know bugging the politicians. Seeing it the way you do it's all about some dellusional meeting some morons. No wonder no one votes at the end. I wonder which political rally have you actually attended which inspired you to write this poem. The way I read it most people are quite heated up on what bugs them and know how to say it. Are you sure it was in this country?

The first little paragraph speaks for itself so let me go back to your comments, though in many ways I know it is futile as people bring their own meaning and experience to a poem.

I don't know who Seinfield and his side kick Ellaine is. I'm making the assumption they are TV characters. When you say am I sure it is about 'this country' I assume you mean America. The British government was in my mind but I'm sure it does apply to America as well as other democracies from my own personal observations. Certainly since both countries are in a war based on duplicity and lies with significant amounts of each population supporting the war for different reasdons than what each government said they were fighting it for. The US administration appears to be the same as the British government here, changing the reasons why we are at war after the fact to defend their own immoral position and significant amounts of each population appear to be willing to swing behind their leadership even if they said the war was fought in defense of Micky Mouse. Having taken an active interest in debates (though there is largely a lack of them due to each government having morally bankrupt positions), the quality of their defense of the war by both governments and the lack of guts in attacking the war by oppositions when opposition would have meant something, does lead me to believe both countries are governed by morons. Worse still, both governments got voted in for a second term which leads me to believe there are substantial amount of people in both countries happy with the immoral policy set in motion by the said bunch of morons. However, being politically partizan in a poem is futile, which is why I wrote the poem like I did. Though in reality I guess I'm not partizan, both governments and their oppositions appear clueless, moronic, dangerously imbecilic and don't have a public that hold them to account.

They are my views which I suppose influenced my writing of the poem, that said, it in no way makes the poem a good poem, the poem lives and dies by the value and quality put upon it by the reader and as I have said, I can see flaws in it but sometimes a poem needs flaws to hit harder. Maybe not this one, I don't know, polemic is always difficult to judge and I so think it needs some serious editing.

Your comment is appreciated Kolklore, I hope you don't see this in anyway as a personal attack, it isn't and I don't want it to be taken as such. Judging by reader response, the consensus is that the poem is not up to much. Hmmm, maybe they just don't like the polemic.


EDIT The first two lines should be enough for Brits to understand who I was talking about.

The lunatics sit on green leather
the senile sit on red.

The Members of Parliament sit on green leather benches and they are for the most part lunatics. The Lords sit on red leather and they are for the most part senile.

 

[KOLKORE]

I am sure you are the right woman!

Oh, boy, are you talking to the wrong woman.

Meaning? A. of course you would mind OR B. I am talking to the wrong woman because you will not mind. If you do care about hate speech against women (or any group of people for that matter) more power to you. If you don't let it bother you - it's fine too. I was not assumig any personal knowledge.
Regardless, it's not any persons's particular level of sensitivity or style that I was bothered by. My default assumption is that when someone is writing in open forum, insulting by expletives a whole group of people for what they are - AKA engaging in HATE speech, I feel that it is MY JOB to say: hey, this is NOT OK and I am still bothered by the fact that more people apparantly don't feel that they should do so here, as they do in other fora.

 

[TheRainMan]

Meaning? A. of course you would mind OR B. I am talking to the wrong woman because you will not mind . . .

or C. - she takes it as a compliment.

it was a joke.

i suspect you may have had too many ants in your pants over the whole thing to recognize the humor. that happens sometimes, when a person gets riled up over small potatoes.

. . . it's not any persons's particular level of sensitivity or style that I was bothered by. . .

other than your own, you mean.

. . My default assumption is that when someone is writing in open forum, insulting by expletives a whole group of people for what they are - AKA engaging in HATE speech, I feel that it is MY JOB to say: hey, this is NOT OK and I am still bothered by the fact that more people apparantly don't feel that they should do so here, as they do in other fora.

it was a poem. how do you presume advocacy?

try saying this: "This Is The Internet."

lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[champagne1982]

Meaning? A. of course you would mind OR B. I am talking to the wrong woman because you will not mind. If you do care about hate speech against women (or any group of people for that matter) more power to you. If you don't let it bother you - it's fine too. I was not assumig any personal knowledge.
Regardless, it's not any persons's particular level of sensitivity or style that I was bothered by. My default assumption is that when someone is writing in open forum, insulting by expletives a whole group of people for what they are - AKA engaging in HATE speech, I feel that it is MY JOB to say: hey, this is NOT OK and I am still bothered by the fact that more people apparantly don't feel that they should do so here, as they do in other fora.

Maybe because there is enough political commentary elsewhere on other boards, that everyone (not just poets) can post views on. I don't think you'd see this (whatever it is) in the Story Discussion Circle forum and I don't think you need that kind of statement about content, unless you're analyzing the poetry, on the PF&D. It's all personal opinion and sometimes, in a review, personal feeling should stay out of it.

This is just a thought to explain why it doesn't get done here; whatever that is that's not getting done. I didn't read the poem, I likely won't now that I have an inkling of what it's about. I don't feel need to voice concerns about someone using the words slut and whore in a poem posted to a site that provides access to incest and non-consent stories. I just choose not to showcase or read them. It's all about liberty, really. As the site owners allow free speech we have the opportunity to exercise the other half of the equation and have free choice.