"To keep the review thread clean..."

[twelveoone]

Wassup? Out of coffee?
Laziness and severe procrastination combined with lack of time. If I say something about a poem it better be something substatial and not just verbal masturbation. Which is, critique wise, all I seem to be able to lately. I can post little "I read this" blurbs if it makes you happy.
Don't be silly.

Just had coffee, feel much better, but yes comments would make me feel better - a line or two - as long as it's not those cookie cutter comments. Remember you are one of the better writers here, example, example, example.

My Ratio is 8 to 1, some lame, some required some thought, none the same except for the ones I left on WickedEve's 'cause she scared me.

"Better than ham in a can; a six amoung fives"

I think I did that 20X.

 

[Angeline]

...and THAT is what is known as a buddy fuck circle.

just weighing, this is not me
and surprisingly it is good

Tired of all I hear and see

if looked at ironicly. Poet walks a dangerous line, utilization of lists:
Grasses, sedges, ferns,
Meadowsweet, Queen Ann's lace, daisies,
Milkweed and forget-me-nots,
Blackberries where pasture to woodland turns,

packed with stuff - note- poetry 101

White around the neck,
White along the hem,
White above the waist
White where motion or breeze
flirts boldly with cliched images:
And scoops her cupped fingers
Through the crystal current.
and yet:
The world flattened again,
And lost its incandescent glow.

Despite the tedium, this poem is well worth the trip

Shame they had submitted in the middle of a such a strong line-up, because it would stand out in the usual pap.

so yes
read, vote and comment, please. Those poems are waiting for you. They're lonely without you.

one of the few poems, I WISHED I HAD THOUGHT about writing here.

I think I would have made it a little shorter

p.s. Change your name, you certainly don't want the usual assholes, thinking you are the one leaving those comments (take it from one who has been there - right Mods?) and you probably don't want people thinking you are me.

Excellent review, Angeline, as a matter of fact the reviews have gotten better and better
Oh where have all the pap pushers gone
Oh where have all the pap pushers gone
long time passing
(and some think I don't have nice things to say, tsk, tsk)

Thank you for the kind words about my review. I try to find a balance between saying what I can that's good about the poem and pointing out the main flaw(s) as I see them. I don't get into a full-scale critique unless the poet asks for it because a)it takes a lot of time to do that and I don't always have a lot of time and b) the new poems thread is supposed to be for recommendations, not all-out critiques. I've learned, over time, that most poets don't want that kind of feedback.

And I still don't get the buddy fuck circle thing. I am sorry I missed the poem you commented on, this is not me. It's very, very good. I skimmed past it and I know if I hadn't been focused on the other poems I really liked I would have caught it. But it wasn't intentional. I agree it would have stood out more if there had been fewer poems I liked that day.

I know you'll never agree with me about the circle thing, but there's not much I can do about that.

 

[champagne1982]

I'm sorry if I ignored you champagne1982. It was unintentional. If I'm not mistaken, I believe you reprimanded us and urged us to air our views elsewhere on the bulletin board. It took this to mean 'out in the main forum', not in the poetry section. Perhaps my word 'shameful' was a little strong, and maybe I did overreact to your words. My original post was very moderate in tone, so I was surprised by the strength of yours.

I've just noticed your edit and have adjusted your quote here. I wish you peace - and I do mean that sincerely.
<snip>

If you think I could reprimand you, then you obviously think you had done something to be reprimanded for. I agree. To come here and add a post calling someone a bigot and homophobe before you've had a reply from the party you're addressing is rude and unfair.

I merely asked you to think about what you were doing. That you took my tone as anything other than exasperation means I could have been justified in my replies to both posts in my original comment.

I don't think you need to patronize me through bolding my name when you reply to my posts, that's already done for you in the quote creditation.

 

[champagne1982]

... checked facts. My bad.

...and THAT is what is known as a buddy fuck circle.

just weighing, this is not me
and surprisingly it is good

Tired of all I hear and see

if looked at ironicly. Poet walks a dangerous line, utilization of lists:
Grasses, sedges, ferns,
Meadowsweet, Queen Ann's lace, daisies,
Milkweed and forget-me-nots,
Blackberries where pasture to woodland turns,

packed with stuff - note- poetry 101

White around the neck,
White along the hem,
White above the waist
White where motion or breeze
flirts boldly with cliched images:
And scoops her cupped fingers
Through the crystal current.
and yet:
The world flattened again,
And lost its incandescent glow.

Despite the tedium, this poem is well worth the trip

Shame they had submitted in the middle of a such a strong line-up, because it would stand out in the usual pap.

so yes
read, vote and comment, please. Those poems are waiting for you. They're lonely without you.

one of the few poems, I WISHED I HAD THOUGHT about writing here.

I think I would have made it a little shorter

p.s. Change your name, you certainly don't want the usual assholes, thinking you are the one leaving those comments (take it from one who has been there - right Mods?) and you probably don't want people thinking you are me.

Excellent review, Angeline, as a matter of fact the reviews have gotten better and better
Oh where have all the pap pushers gone
Oh where have all the pap pushers gone
long time passing
(and some think I don't have nice things to say, tsk, tsk)

This poem was posted Monday, November 12, a day without a regular reviewer. Thanks for reading back and finding this to point out to those of us who missed it.

 

[DeepAsleep]

If Mondays need a regular reviewer, I'll take them. Someone PM me and let me know.

Whizz-bang.

~R

 

[Angeline]

If Mondays need a regular reviewer, I'll take them. Someone PM me and let me know.

Whizz-bang.

~R

You're on! I'll add you to the list. Thank you, R.

 

[twelveoone]

Yo, Ange, Champ
You guys do fine reviews. I almost missed it - it did kind of go on.
Shame they had submitted in the middle of a such a strong line-up, because it would stand out in the usual pap.

Now if I have limited time, which I do, who am I going to look at first? My buddy fuck circle, which no longer posts, and then people like foehn, liar, who are good writers.

As far as the pap droppers, they would do well to suck it up and READ others and comment; share the pain, THEY might learn something about how boring writing can be.

 

[Tathagata]

Now if I have limited time, which I do, who am I going to look at first? My buddy fuck circle, which no longer posts, and then people like foehn, liar, who are good writers.
.

I bet if you bypassed the homily section of your Sunday Mass you could do both





just sayin


have a pint

 

[DeepAsleep]

Lol

"Pointing fingers and name calling is the shiz-nit."

AWE-SOME.

~R

 

[twelveoone]

I bet if you bypassed the homily section of your Sunday Mass you could do both





just sayin


have a pint

hommity?
humility?
humidity?

we don't have any of that in my religion

I'll have a pint though. You buying?

 

[Tathagata]

hommity?
humility?
humidity?

we don't have any of that in my religion

I'll have a pint though. You buying?

I'd have guessed the humility one

We have pints in my church...Bass Ale or the Blood of Christ?
( I suppose I could have said " Bloody Mary" as well)

 

[twelveoone]

I'd have guessed the humility one

We have pints in my church...Bass Ale or the Blood of Christ?
( I suppose I could have said " Bloody Mary" as well)

Bass Ale Rocks

I'm not going anywhere near that blood of christ thing.

Damn, I'm getting pissy again, that awkard time between coffee and beer.

 

[DeepAsleep]

I'd have guessed the humility one

We have pints in my church...Bass Ale or the Blood of Christ?
( I suppose I could have said " Bloody Mary" as well)

Ah, shit. Same thing.

 

[Tathagata]

Bass Ale Rocks

I'm not going anywhere near that blood of christ thing.

Damn, I'm getting pissy again, that awkard time between coffee and beer.

there's a time between coffee and beer?

we need to have a long talk son

 

[Tathagata]

Ah, shit. Same thing.

I've been equally impressed and inspired by both
( though the Bass goes better with bar food)

 

[DeepAsleep]

I've been equally impressed and inspired by both
( though the Bass goes better with bar food)

I've been drinking a lot of Smithwick's, lately, when I drink at all. It's a nice median between Bass and Guinness, to me - A buddy calls it "The construction worker's Guinness," which... Guinness sort of IS the construction worker's Guinness, but around here, only snobby art-fuckers (Like.. well, me, I guess) drink Guinness, so I know where he's coming from.

Also popular hereabouts: Stella Artois. It's a typical green-bottle beer, but it's crisp and I like it more than Heineken. Also, it's fun to order - "I'd Like a Stella Artoiiiiiiiis." "I'll have a STEEEEELLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAA" etc.

 

[Tathagata]

I've been drinking a lot of Smithwick's, lately, when I drink at all. It's a nice median between Bass and Guinness, to me - A buddy calls it "The construction worker's Guinness," which... Guinness sort of IS the construction worker's Guinness, but around here, only snobby art-fuckers (Like.. well, me, I guess) drink Guinness, so I know where he's coming from.

Also popular hereabouts: Stella Artois. It's a typical green-bottle beer, but it's crisp and I like it more than Heineken. Also, it's fun to order - "I'd Like a Stella Artoiiiiiiiis." "I'll have a STEEEEELLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAA" etc.

You need to come to Boston, there are places where the Guinness is implied when you walk through the door.
Some great bar talk in those places.
( and here he goes off with one of his oft told tales as the elderly and habitually attention craving folk will do)

I remember being in a small bar where each day the waitress would write the myriad beers available on a chalkboard
A guy sitting next to me watched her for a bit, sippin his Guinness, and said ( with a very Irish accent) when she was done " Wouldn't it be easier to write the ones you don't have?

I like Stella and you are right, much better than Heineken and Amstel Light too

There's the whole Sam Adams line, Harpoon Ale, and a brewery out in western mass called Wachusett Brewery that makes a great nut brown ale as well

Nut Brown is fun to order after a while...especially when the barmaid just asks " Another nut brown?"

 

[ramonathompson]

Ramona:

As the originator of this controversy over your parody, I regret the pain you have obviously felt as a consequence of my perceiving your intentions as the opposite of what you intended. It seems like it was a lot of work that just came out a little wrong and your intentions were not clear to me. I think it is very big of you to come here and deal with the problem so courageously.

I also think it was very generous and thoughtful of Whitewave 48 to alert you to what was going on.

I do thank those that brought this matter to my attention and must say once again how sorry I am that in any way this poem/song came across wrong or rubbed anyone in the wrong way.

God bless and sorry again about the mess,

All the best,

Ramona T

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

RIP yet another stormy teacup.

 

[Liar]

Just had coffee, feel much better, but yes comments would make me feel better - a line or two - as long as it's not those cookie cutter comments. Remember you are one of the better writers here, example, example, example.

Genre genre genre.

Do I have the ability to write....

Nonsensical yap on a porn board? Check.

Poems? Check. (or at least what some would call poems)

Feedback, even the most basic one? I try from time to time, and feel mentally handicapped. I don't react with anything I have words for to poems I read. Occasional flashes of functioning brain strikes me while browsing this board, but when I deliberately try? Nada.

But sure, I'll make a cut n paste comment that means nothing, and employ it for your peace of mind.

 

[lorencino]

I couln't have put it better myself

WARNING
This post contains a great deal of politics. Reader discretion is advised

Most excellent discussion going on in here. I thought I'd just weigh in with my take.

My thought is this: I despise bigotry just as much as the next guy. I'm downright bigoted about bigots. But I do think we have to be very careful about censorship, most particularly in a board like this. jthserra's questions above are excellent ones, and unfortunately there are no easy answers to them. Our emotional response to the idea of a poem is of course an integral part of our evaluation of the piece, and cannot possibly be completely separated.

But oh golly, even bigotry, even the most vile sentiments, do we dare take it upon ourselves to say that they should not be spoken? Speaking them makes them available for dialogue and teaching and ideally the response and correction of the community, while declaring them subversive and censoring them does not cure them but merely sends them underground.

And where does one draw the line? Discussions like this end up moving toward a question of legislation of thought and idea, and that is terribly dangerous.

Better, as is obviously demonstrated in this particular case, to leave the ideas up, talk about them, let them lead us to a better understanding of one another. Even in those unfortunate cases in which a writer is actually some sort of bigoted asshole, I believe it's better to allow the whole village address it with candor, as this village often does.

Of course, that's the opinion of a goddamned leftist commie fag-loving liberal weenie, so just keep that in mind. (grin)

bj

Some time ago I got involved in posting on a political thread started by a virulently anti Islamic person on the MySpace Forum There were a large number of threads that attcked Palestinians, Arabs, and the Islamic religion and it struck me that some very hateful messages where ouit there unchallenged and being read by a lot of impressionable people judging from some of the responses.

I began to respond to the basic assumptions of s few of these threads and spent a great deal of time on a particularly bad one. It was not just a question of a different opinion. It was mythologized history, inadequate references to the scriptures of all three monotheistic religions and all the usual assumptions of racist ideologies.

It very soon became obvious that nothing could change the minds of a certain hardcore group no matter what the facts suggested. It was a case of not letting facts bog you down when preaching the cause. However, I felt that the bigotry could not be left in the public forum on its own and that it was worth simply providing an alternate viewpoint for the undecided to see at the same time that they saw the other stuff.

Over a two week period more poeple began to join in to challenge the thrust of these threads and a certain balance developed. Then the moderator of that particular section woke up from the trance he had been in for a few weeks and deleted the threads with the most egregious titles.

Poof! Some of the best essays I had ever written disappeared forever. I was pissed. So we had a discussion about that on the forum and the consensus of the people opposed to the Islamophobic sentiments of some of the threads felt that these threads should not have been deleted because they brought bigoted views and hate propaganda out into the open where they could be discussed and the hatred robbed, to some degree, of the magic power that animates hateful ideas in secret societies and amongst the ill-educated and the uneducated.

Refusing to allow the bigot a public forum of expression leaves the bigotry to fester unchallenged until it does eventually gather enough steam to motivate acts of violence. When the bigots clarify their motives in public it provides an opportunity to engage in debate.

Even when the numbers of a group of bigots becomes large enough to embolden them to go public on the internet or in rallies in the streets, their ideas still need to be challenged because bigotry is not simply a matter of differences of opinion.

If I say that I am a human being and you say that I am part of a sub-human species then I don't think we are dealing with different opinions. One of us is clearly telling the truth and the other has entered some kind of delusional state. If someone says "all Jews are inherently evil and seek to undermine whatever society they live in," they are not expressing a valid opinion and it can be scientifically shown to be the crap it is, in spite of the fact that a great many people believe it to be an indisputable given. Opinions are about things that are open to different interpretations and in welcoming a diversity of opinion we are acknowledging that on certain issues no-one can be absolutely certain

Sometimes bigotry completely overtakes a society. The KKK operated for many years unchallenged in certain regions of North America because their bigotry enjoyed wide currency in the areas they operated in and because people were intimidated into silence if they did find them objectionable. The KKK appeared briefly, (and brazenly) in Vancouver, BC in the late 70's and early 80s. Vigorously confronted whenever they appeared in public, they soon disappeared.

We hear a great deal about the need to fight to preserve freedom and democracy in the context of troops fighting in foreign countries and yet we are all to often afraid of having "political" arguments in our immediate circles or on our favorite discussion boards. How often have you heard the rather trite, "we don't discuss politics or religion in polite society."

The tragedy is that we have become afraid to discuss politics except in carefully defines situations were it is appropriately controlled by the hegemonic forces who don't want substantive discussion of issues under any circumstances. The sex-life and religious sentiments of a politician are far more important than what a palitician intends to do in public life. How she looks and comes across on TV has a powerful effect on how many votes she is going to get, because no one discusses the issues any more. Elections are now decided by who wins the advertizing and spin war rather than on the political issues.

If Hilary Clinton emerged as the only candidate who had a clear and concrete plan to end US involvement in Iraq and have all the troops home within 6 months of taking office (and the overwhelming majority of her electorate agreed with this aim), and if the polls showed a landslide victory in the offing leading up to the election, she would not have a hope in hell of being elected if ten days before election day every newspaper, TV station, and radio station across the nation reported that she had become pregnant with her bi hairdresser (in a moment of weakness at a high-society orgy one weekend in Reno) and had subsequently aborted the six-week-old fetus.

How many people in the US are actually capable of having a rational discussion on the merits of their fundamental assumptions about the innate normalcy of capitalism and yet the only elections in the world that matter are those that occur in the US. Any country that votes for something that is against US policy, like Chile voting in Allende, is sooner or later brought into line with US policy. What the US wants in the world is, by and large, what becomes implemented, and the elections that decide the nature of that policy are decided by who has the larger advertising budget.

It is within the realm of possibility that if the nascent Nazi group led by little corporal Adolf had been called on their bigotry vigorously and consistently from the very beginning, i.e., if they had been confronted by Germans in Germany from the early 1920s on, it would not have been necessary for most of the rest of the world to go in and clean them out 20 years later.

So while I agree with those on this thread who have expressed reservations about censorship, I believe firmly that bigotry must be confronted to avoid holocausts, slavery, the murdering of homosexuals because they are homosexuals (which has occurred in both Canada and the US in the last 20 years) and the victimization of Moslems which is occurring right now in North America.

All of the above notwithstanding, I can't help but wonder what the effect will be on the state of mind of a 14-year-old black kid who, standing in front of a bookstore window, reads a title something like: Why God Wants Us to Send all N--g-rs back to Africa before He ends the Aids Crisis in America.

I know it represents the thin edge of the wedge, but I have a hard time resisting the urge to be censorial about a book like that. The only way to protect that kid from the sting of bigotry directed against his or her group is to provide children with a first class education that includes an habituation to critical thinking, sufficient healthy food to provide good health (Mens sana in corpore sana) and a supportive community experience. In my opinion these are important components of the human rights package and it is not enough to merely champion freedom of speech while ignoring the rest of the human rights package.

So while I agree with Freedom of Speech as a fundamental requirement for a democratic society to be possible, it degenerates into a mere fetish if a host of other important factors that make for a true democracy are missing.

(extract from a longer post)

If anyone disagrees with the content of any poem anywhere, the perfect response is to write a poem expressing your viewpoint. Write the poem better than the original and people may take you serious enough to look into their heart and minds about their own personal views. I think that is the best response you can take, there are other ways to respond such as discussing it with the author, expressing your own views or simply ignoring the poem, but absolute worst response is to try block or remove the poem from public view.

While fully acknowledging the kindly tone of jthserra's suggestion, I have to own that I am incapable of writing a good poem expressing what I have written above and have thus been forced to rely on prose of questionable quality and belabored style that I hope makes my point.

 

[champagne1982]

Any country that votes for something that is against US policy, like Chile voting in Allende, is sooner or later brought into line with US policy. What the US wants in the world is, by and large, what becomes implemented, and the elections that decide the nature of that policy are decided by who has the larger advertising budget.

Canada is still not in bed with the United States of America in Iraq.

eta:

If Hilary Clinton emerged as the only candidate who had a clear and concrete plan to end US involvement in Iraq and have all the troops home within 6 months of taking office (and the overwhelming majority of her electorate agreed with this aim), and if the polls showed a landslide victory in the offing leading up to the election, she would not have a hope in hell of being elected if ten days before election day every newspaper, TV station, and radio station across the nation reported that she had become pregnant with her bi hairdresser (in a moment of weakness at a high-society orgy one weekend in Reno) and had subsequently aborted the six-week-old fetus.

Are you saying that everyone who is pro-life is also pro-involvement in Iraq?

You're speaking with your gut. That's okay, it shows your poet's soul. You're also not allowing yourself a cool down period between thought and pen in order to present an inarguable view.

I am not attacking you or your politics, I'm just saying that in order to communicate effectively in a public forum, we should do so in an environment where respect for all views can be kept to the fore.

Signed, Carrie... just another devil's advocate.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

I usually come here for the poetry - of any kind - not to spout my views, political or otherwise, unless in poetic prose. I come from Canada, like Carrie, a tolerant and multi-faceted community and will not tolerate bigotry in any form. Unfortunately the internet forums have become a soap box for bigots of all stripes (go spend a few minutes in the general board for an e.g.) and those opposing are impotent to stop them unless it is by ignoring their rants. Make them take a stand in the open where they can be challenged instead of taking a cowardly shelter in cyber space.

This forum should - could - be a haven from this kind of discussion. Spout over.

 

[The_Fool]

I like to spout nonsense...

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

I like to spout nonsense...

I think I just did.