What do you do if your sub is a coward?

[Singularity]

So the original question still stands.

Does the moderator of this forum believe in, and respect, safewords? Or does he live by what he said in his original post?

Playing with words and not understanding how incredibly powerful and damaging they can be is hugely dangerous. It doesn't really matter whether it was all a pose and a provocation for a witty post.

As I said earlier, REAL people get REALLY hurt, to the point of being injured, maimed and sometimes even dead, by those who treat safewords like a bargaining chip. So when you play with things like this - and especially as a leader and as someone who holds a great deal of influence over a wide group of people, including the hundreds who lurk here who you never know exist - you are playing with fire.

To act, or pretend otherwise, makes you a fool, as well as a very crass and shallow individual.

Witticisms and comedy and parody don't cut it, Marquis. So how about starting to act like a man instead of a little boy?

 

[jadefirefly]

Singularity, you obviously don't spend a lot of time 'round here, do ya?

If you did, you'd have realised after the very first 'voyeur' post that there was more going on here than your assumptions of an idiot being a... well, an idiot.

*pats you on the head*

You're cute. Have a nice day!

 

[im_a_voyeur]

Does the moderator of this forum believe in, and respect, safewords? Or does he live by what he said in his original post?

I thought I had made it clear that Marquis does respect my safeword but if it requires repeating so that there is no misunderstanding, I don't mind saying it again.

Playing with words and not understanding how incredibly powerful and damaging they can be is hugely dangerous. It doesn't really matter whether it was all a pose and a provocation for a witty post.

As I said earlier, REAL people get REALLY hurt, to the point of being injured, maimed and sometimes even dead, by those who treat safewords like a bargaining chip. So when you play with things like this - and especially as a leader and as someone who holds a great deal of influence over a wide group of people, including the hundreds who lurk here who you never know exist - you are playing with fire.

To act, or pretend otherwise, makes you a fool, as well as a very crass and shallow individual.

Witticisms and comedy and parody don't cut it, Marquis. So how about starting to act like a man instead of a little boy?

Everyone may not like Marquis' style of how he gets his point across but you have to admit that this thread sparked some great discussions and drew more attention then had it been done in a dry and boring manner. I think that this thread compelled a lot more people to share their thoughts on the subject.

I don't think anyone can deny the importance of respecting safe words. The people who you feel may have been influenced to not respect safewords are the type of people who would not respect safewords whether they read this thread or not. Unfortunately, there are bad people in this world and they are going to do as they wish regardless of all the preaching done. A lot of it falls on deaf ears.

I understand that you didn't appreciate the manner in how it was done but you can't please all the people all the time and you are more then entitled to your opinion. You brought up some excellent points and I appreciate you sharing the stories of the women you knew who were unfortunate to come across some very bad people.




Wow, this is a great thread. I have never been compelled to write so much in a post here EVER! (I think I shall be returning to lurk mode though. I'm much more comfortable watching then participating. )

 

[AngelicAssassin]

I thought I ...

and which "I" would this be?

Enough alts (among other things) ooze in here from the GB without a "defender" of the forum pulling the same stunt for whatever reason.

Sir Quam was funny; this was not.

Kindly confine this nonsense to the Cafe, or better yet, put it in the Playground where it belongs.

 

[Singularity]

Then let's hear HIM say that, that he respects safewords and retract his words.

Or is he too ashamed of himself to do it on his own? Speaking through you im-a-youeur, or using your ID like he did before - is pretty gutless.

And I'll tell him again, he's acting like an irresponsible little boy instead of a man.

You're right, too, jadedfirefly, that I don't spend a lot of time here. But that's not the point. There are a lot of those who lurk here and who listen - a lot. And when someone takes such serious license with what is truly important, the impact of their words can go much farther than they suspect. After all, it is because people DO listen, and respond, that we come here to interact.

Did those who raped or maimed the women I spoke of spend any lurker-time here? I have no idea. And neither do you. Did Marquis' words cause them to do what they did? No, it was already done. But there are other impressionable and easily swayed people out there who seek validation and support and an excuse for how they prey on others. They see BDSM as a game and a means of finding 'fresh meat' and of taking from the vulnerable what is not theirs to take.

Satire and parody and provocative speech have their place. But, sadly, this is not one of them. This kind of 'style' is so very wrong, and misplaced. There is a great deal of nasty, and twisted misapplication and misuse of what can be wonderful about a D/s relationship. We all know that. There are a great many people who file in the door of this forum seeking advice and help and guidance, who are troubled or unsure of themselves or their partner. We have all seen the steady parade of them. Those are the ones you have to worry about. Not the "'its only Marquis being Marquis" in crowd.

So when someone pours gasoline on the floor and plays with matches, and that person is the MODERATOR, that's lousy judgment at best - and grossly negligent or simply uncaring at worst.

It is so much more fun, though; to 'pat me on the head' and say 'tsk, tsk' when it is revealed that it is all a huge joke? The 'in crowd' gets the joke, and that's what's really important here, isn't it?

 

[Miss Diva]

and which "I" would this be?

Enough alts (among other things) ooze in here from the GB without a "defender" of the forum pulling the same stunt for whatever reason.

Sir Quam was funny; this was not.

Kindly confine this nonsense to the Cafe, or better yet, put it in the Playground where it belongs.

Thank you AA.

 

[chris9]

Singularity, this thread might have caused some to think safe-words are optional/not really the big 'no'. But I don't remember a thread where many of the regulars, the 'in croud' as you call them, posted seriously on the topic of safe-words. All I have thought of them so far is 'have one, be safe'. All I heard from others here is wether they have or don't have one, if they use it often or never. There never was any discussion about them. About how they offer the opportunity for topping from the bottom. How a PYL can make sure they are only used when really needed instead of used to get out of situations not to the liking of the pyl.

And I really don't think that any of the men your friends happened to meet (or men like them) would be influenced by this. Either they are stupid, then they don't come here to learn, or they are evil, then they don't care what anyone says. The smart ones might even learn more from this thread than from others saying 'have a safe-word, always respect it, basta'.

 

[Caitlynne]

Everyone may not like Marquis' style of how he gets his point across but you have to admit that this thread sparked some great discussions and drew more attention then had it been done in a dry and boring manner. I think that this thread compelled a lot more people to share their thoughts on the subject.

If *you* would like to look at a great parody where a *point* was made go Here and see how it is done. We all had a great time and many points were made.

I have been around this forum a long time and I *do* know how Marquis operates. He wasn't making a point, he was playing with the subbies in the forum. He took the item we'd all have an opinion on and sat back and laughed his ass off at how funny we all were. Which ordinarily would be fine, subs should be a source of entertainment for Dominants, but we usually like to consent to fun and games.

C'est la vie, we all got used for his enjoyment. It happens. But don't kid yourself into believing [or try to convince me] that it was about making a point. It was to troll the forum; set off an alarm and watch everyone run around with their heads cut off.

As for taking your word for anything, I'm not entirely sure there even *is* a you at this point. That's the problem with alts and playing games, etc.. we now have no idea if you were ever real or just a figment of Marquis' imagination.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I dont understand why everyone gets in such an uproar when someone starts a thread intended to make people feel, and succeeds in doing that. I have seen this more then once here. He made you think...he made you feel... the thread is informative...so where exactly is the problem?

btw i dont think Marquis using the person he owns lit name to stir the thread a bit the same as someone using an alt. First thing i thought is how really D/s his relationship is. Second thing i though is what a good girl she is.

I think we need to start adding prozac to the water supply here.

 

[chris9]

I dont understand why everyone gets in such an uproar when someone starts a thread intended to make people feel, and succeeds in doing that. I have seen this more then once here. He made you think...he made you feel... the thread is informative...so where exactly is the problem?

btw i dont think Marquis using the person he owns lit name to stir the thread a bit the same as someone using an alt. First thing i thought is how really D/s his relationship is. Second thing i though is what a good girl she is.

I think we need to start adding prozac to the water supply here.

And I'm thinking that he only used her account for the first post. I could be wrong here, but usually reading him using other people still has a Marquis-style writing. The first post of im a voyeur has, the others don't.


And why is it a parody to make people feel and write pro safe-words passionatly?

 

[AngelicAssassin]

btw i dont think Marquis using the person he owns lit name to stir the thread a bit the same as someone using an alt.

i'd agree if dipshits like pandoravampire/Bytor didn't exist.

 

[Kajira Callista]

i'd agree if dipshits like pandoravampire/Bytor didn't exist.

well they dont exist when you put em on ignore. I understand what you are saying AA but we werent dealing with a troll. It was Marquis and his girls lit name.
Im still sticking with the thought of anyone reading this thread learning a lot of good things.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

well they dont exist when you put em on ignore.

Good suggestion.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Lot of spankings being handed out in this thread.

 

[Marquis]

There have been a lot of great responses to this thread, which I think said more and better than I ever could on the topic. After some of the initial responses I threw away any ideas of responding seriously myself, but perhaps I'll say a few words since my little one has decided to take down the 4th wall.

Before I respond to individuals though, let me explain my policy on engaging people. I think that in life if you let people pick your battles for you, you may end up fighting all day long and never have enough energy to win the battles that are important to you, against enemies that matter. The anectdote that will always come to mind in such scenarios was talking to a pretty young lady at a trendy South Beach bar once.

Her eyes had that opaque blue that was a giveaway for contacts. I mean, the bitch was wearing contacts, I know what contacts look like and I could see them. But why go out of your way to make people look like assholes when they're often so happy to do it for you:

"Wow, you have really striking eyes sweetie, what color are they."

"Blue."

"Amazing, those aren't contacts?"

"No, I get it from my Mother's side."

"Cool, did I tell you about the time I played in the World Cup?"

and which "I" would this be?

Enough alts (among other things) ooze in here from the GB without a "defender" of the forum pulling the same stunt for whatever reason.

Sir Quam was funny; this was not.

Kindly confine this nonsense to the Cafe, or better yet, put it in the Playground where it belongs.

Now, AA. Are you really trying to tell me that to a man of your considerable intelligence, that it was not obvious which post was either me or my words and which post was someone altogether different?

Perhaps you're just thinking about all the morons that everyone seems so concerned about in this thread.

If *you* would like to look at a great parody where a *point* was made go Here and see how it is done. We all had a great time and many points were made.

That was a populist thread about as subtle as daytime TV. If you want a great parody thread:

Go here!

I have been around this forum a long time and I *do* know how Marquis operates. He wasn't making a point, he was playing with the subbies in the forum. He took the item we'd all have an opinion on and sat back and laughed his ass off at how funny we all were. Which ordinarily would be fine, subs should be a source of entertainment for Dominants, but we usually like to consent to fun and games.

I was making a point, I was seeking information and I was having fun. I can't say any prong of my effort went unsatisfied.

I mentioned on another thread how I had gone to see John Warren give a demonstration on the mind fuck recently. One of his golden tips was how he'd get a rise out of subs not by lying, but letting them assume things and getting spooked by nothing but their own insecurities.

He describes a scenario where he dips his fingers in cinnamon oil and runs it along a sub's back. It starts to burn, but its bearable in such small quantities. Then he places an open bottle on her butt cheeks and proceeds to tickle her. She does her best to stay still, but eventually the bottle spills over and the oil inside spills all over her most sensitive areas while she wails in terror.

Of course, the bottle was filled with nothing but soothing baby oil, but it isn't his fault if she thought it was going to be the fiery stuff, is it?

C'est la vie, we all got used for his enjoyment. It happens. But don't kid yourself into believing [or try to convince me] that it was about making a point. It was to troll the forum; set off an alarm and watch everyone run around with their heads cut off.

Well, I do admit that it went better than I possibly could have imagined. Singularity has managed to demonize me more eloquently than I've ever been able to do for myself. However, since coming clean and bringing in sterile reality seems to be the order of the day, let me lay it flat out.

I think there is a lot of great ways to look at the safeword issue in real life terms.

The "if you don't quit, you ain't legit" mantra is all well and good, and important for people to know, like the Miranda rights. But nothing is ever that simple in real life and we'll never get to talk about these things if someone doesn't break the ice.

Unless it is my specific intention, I almost never bring a sub to the point where she needs to safeword mostly because I started BDSM very young and I'm moving very slowly. I don't bite off more than I can chew and the amount of trust I offer a submissive is not a joke. So safewording out of a session that is themed around play or experimentation is generally unnecessary, she can just say "stop" in a serious voice and it's over.

Punishment is a little different. There are times where I am trying to raise the bar and will beat pretty much as hard as I can for as long as I can, using a decent warm up and setting the scene properly. In these instances it becomes sort of a battle for my sub to see how much she can take and even though she is not a clasical masochist she does amazingly well. When she says "red" in those situations, the belt/cane/whatever gets dropped immediately and I embrace her for doing as well as she has, not get upset at her for ending my fun.

However, we are human and there has maybe been a few times (as Chicklet was alluding to) where we have both misused our safeword in an attempt to heat things up. She will safeword during some mild rough sex in the sort of coy fear that just begs for a girl to be raped. With the amount of people I play with, I'd be in jail already if I wasn't on safe side, but after a year of being with this woman, I know when it's time to stop and ask whats wrong and I know when its time to be the bad man her aching little pussy is begging for.

This is reality and it may not be as neat or pretty or simple as the threads that are started around here to be pamphlets for all the morons, but it's truth has value too because it IS the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

As for taking your word for anything, I'm not entirely sure there even *is* a you at this point. That's the problem with alts and playing games, etc.. we now have no idea if you were ever real or just a figment of Marquis' imagination.

Caitlynne, you have no idea if any of these people are real. Although I'm sure you have some compelling evidence to believe some of us are, you could just about be talking to a single person, very interested in you, when you come to the lit forum. I've always treated the online world like a movie. Think not of the actors, but the characters, for they are all you see.

I think I've always been blatantly obvious with any fooling around I've done of this nature, but if you're going to start second guessing over here, you've got a LOT of second guessing to do elsewhere.

 

[Marquis]

Oh, one more thing.

Not to take anything away from my drop dead gorgeous, massively hung, modly self....

but why is my jestingly presented opinion any more valid than the vastly outnumbering, older and more experienced dissenters in this thread?

To say that I'm causing rapes is like saying Marilyn Manson caused Columbine. In the end, all you're doing is giving us free publicity.

 

[Caitlynne]

Caitlynne, you have no idea if any of these people are real. Although I'm sure you have some compelling evidence to believe some of us are, you could just about be talking to a single person, very interested in you, when you come to the lit forum. I've always treated the online world like a movie. Think not of the actors, but the characters, for they are all you see.

Ah, a point well taken.

And I never said or thought that all your expectations weren't met. LOL, I think we all did our level best to speak from our own POV and entertain you.

 

[Marquis]

Ah, a point well taken.

And I never said or thought that all your expectations weren't met. LOL, I think we all did our level best to speak from our own POV and entertain you.

And it was much appreciated, as always.

 

[Caitlynne]

And it was much appreciated, as always.

LOL

 

[serijules]

He describes a scenario where he dips his fingers in cinnamon oil and runs it along a sub's back. It starts to burn, but its bearable in such small quantities. Then he places an open bottle on her butt cheeks and proceeds to tickle her. She does her best to stay still, but eventually the bottle spills over and the oil inside spills all over her most sensitive areas while she wails in terror.

Of course, the bottle was filled with nothing but soothing baby oil, but it isn't his fault if she thought it was going to be the fiery stuff, is it?

Dawnie did this to me once. One punishment she uses that is very effective for me is some stuff called Screaming Toast. It's a muscle cream, but it's much much stronger than icy hot or ben gay. I touched without permission once and my punishment was screaming toast on my cunt. She suggested I put a pad on my panties before she applied the cream (we were on our way out for a drive), and I had no idea why. I found out soon enough. I haven't touched her property without her permission since.

Anyhow...one of my requirements is to keep my asshole lubed whenever we are together. It isn't her job to remind me, and it's something I tend to forget to do. One such time we were together, I admitted to having forgotten to lube a few times in the weekend. She nodded and didn't say much else, but she never forgets anything. The next morning she decided to use me as entertainment for two of our other friends that were in the hotel room with us and had me naked on the bed, filled, quirt out, etc. At one point when I was on my hands and knees with my ass in the air, I saw her get out the bag that the Screaming Toast was in, get out a bottle I couldn't see, and lube my ass. I was SO convinced that she was punishing me for not lubing by using the screaming toast on me before putting the plug in, that I was sobbing and begging, sure my ass was on fire.

It was KY warming gel...which has very very little, if any, sensation to it.

I wish I could say I haven't forgotten to lube since...drats.

Just thought I would share that. I'm in a sharing mood today.

 

[serijules]

I was going to reply with these comments earlier in the thread, but the "Im fucking with you" thing was kind of making me feel stupid, so I didn't. I got over it.

Anyhow...

I used to be a huge fan of safewords and lecture on how they were always necessary, even in the most secure and long-lived relationships. The thought of someone not having a safeword or pushing beyound that safeword was ridiculous to me. People that said they didn't have one or didn't need one would have me shaking my head in disbelief.

Now I'm in a relationship where I not only don't have one, I'm not allowed one. I'm just fine with that.

Dawnie and I have been together and played together for such a period of time where we know and read each other well enough that a safeword is redundant. Our relationship and our play is based on common sense and communication. We don't need a safeword to establish or ensure trust and safety. Safewords make me feel uncomfortable because I don't need to feel any sort of power withen a scene, and I'd rather rely on good old communication if something does go seriously wrong. She is a good top; she will not ignore signs of distress from me. I am a good bottom; I will communicate to her plainly if something is going wrong or something needs to change for my safety. I'm not allowed to hurt or harm her property.

Miscommunications can, will and have happened, but we learn from them and move on. Nothing is foolproof, not even safewords. I'd rather depend on my ability to communicate than my ability to remember and not feel silly using some random word. Sometimes we scene in such a way where I know she is going to push me beyound my limits. She always reminds me that I don't have/am not allowed to safeword, and the space this comment takes me to is incredible. My ability to take the pain goes up quite a notch when she speaks to me that way. I can understand the desire to safeword even though one knows it won't be respected, just to enhance the scene and refresh that "I have no limits, I belong to her completely" feeling, although I wouldn't do that without discussing it with her first. So we do "fuck" with safewords in a sense.

I did use safewords when I played with other people though. I no longer am allowed to play with others so it isn't an issue anymore, but when I was allowed, safewords were simple and required.

Just my experiences...I don't have much of a point here, just input.

 

[Marquis]

I was going to reply with these comments earlier in the thread, but the "Im fucking with you" thing was kind of making me feel stupid, so I didn't. I got over it.

Anyhow...

I used to be a huge fan of safewords and lecture on how they were always necessary, even in the most secure and long-lived relationships. The thought of someone not having a safeword or pushing beyound that safeword was ridiculous to me. People that said they didn't have one or didn't need one would have me shaking my head in disbelief.

Now I'm in a relationship where I not only don't have one, I'm not allowed one. I'm just fine with that.

Dawnie and I have been together and played together for such a period of time where we know and read each other well enough that a safeword is redundant. Our relationship and our play is based on common sense and communication. We don't need a safeword to establish or ensure trust and safety. Safewords make me feel uncomfortable because I don't need to feel any sort of power withen a scene, and I'd rather rely on good old communication if something does go seriously wrong. She is a good top; she will not ignore signs of distress from me. I am a good bottom; I will communicate to her plainly if something is going wrong or something needs to change for my safety. I'm not allowed to hurt or harm her property.

Miscommunications can, will and have happened, but we learn from them and move on. Nothing is foolproof, not even safewords. I'd rather depend on my ability to communicate than my ability to remember and not feel silly using some random word. Sometimes we scene in such a way where I know she is going to push me beyound my limits. She always reminds me that I don't have/am not allowed to safeword, and the space this comment takes me to is incredible. My ability to take the pain goes up quite a notch when she speaks to me that way. I can understand the desire to safeword even though one knows it won't be respected, just to enhance the scene and refresh that "I have no limits, I belong to her completely" feeling, although I wouldn't do that without discussing it with her first. So we do "fuck" with safewords in a sense.

I did use safewords when I played with other people though. I no longer am allowed to play with others so it isn't an issue anymore, but when I was allowed, safewords were simple and required.

Just my experiences...I don't have much of a point here, just input.

Thank you for your input. While I'm not yet at a point where I feel like discarding the safeword entirely is a good idea, I do know of others that don't wish to add that artificial restriction on their play, for the reasons you've described.

Obviously this attitude is not for the beginners, but they tend to figure that out one way or the other. Was it Mark Twain who said a child who touches a hot stove learns three times what a child told not to touch a hot stove is taught?

 

[serijules]

Thank you for your input. While I'm not yet at a point where I feel like discarding the safeword entirely is a good idea, I do know of others that don't wish to add that artificial restriction on their play, for the reasons you've described.

Obviously this attitude is not for the beginners, but they tend to figure that out one way or the other. Was it Mark Twain who said a child who touches a hot stove learns three times what a child told not to touch a hot stove is taught?

Exactly.

 

[Kajira Callista]

You are always right, KC!!

I am reminded that one of the traits of a good moderator is the ability to stimulate interesting conversation ....

<smile>

 

[Kajira Callista]

Good suggestion.

now i dont know if he thought it was a good idea to ignore bytor or if im on ignore *sigh*