What do you do if your sub is a coward?

[leavessnailtrails]

I've learned from my mother that it is impossible to talk with a sock in my mouth.
Now I know they didn't invent ballgags for nothing!

 

[stirbird]

This is not a comedy show, bozo. So many others are in thrall to your post-count and your drop-dead good looks and your most-assuredly really big dick, but you are one seriously misguided little boy.



Real people get really, really hurt by those who live by the words and the philosophy you preach with your blithe, lighthearted and oh-so-dangerous words. Words have meaning and they can have consequences, often far beyond those you can imagine. So cut the crap and start acting like a man instead of a boy.

If you have any sense of decency and honor, you'd simply apologize and make amends. Making light of this is so very, very wrong.

I didn't vote on the poll about whether you should remain as moderator. But I'll tell you now, Marquis, that you should resign. Now. You are too immature to be in a position of such responsibility.

You have no business being in any way in charge of this place.

Nonsense, you over-serious little snit. I lived as a slave for 16 years with no fucking safeword becuase we both thought they sucked hot ass and wouldn't have anything to do with that incredibly stupid convention. There are plenty of relationships in which master and slave know each other more than well enough to know when a SW can be ignored. Safewords give all the power to the submissive and utterly ruin the sexual experience for some of us, subs and doms alike. Get off your damn high horse. SSC Is Not Writ into criminal law yet, sheesh! And if it were...I (as a submissive) would break that damn libido-killing law every chance I got.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Nonsense, you over-serious little snit. I lived as a slave for 16 years with no fucking safeword becuase we both thought they sucked hot ass and wouldn't have anything to do with that incredibly stupid convention. There are plenty of relationships in which master and slave know each other more than well enough to know when a SW can be ignored. Safewords give all the power to the submissive and utterly ruin the sexual experience for some of us, subs and doms alike. Get off your damn high horse. SSC Is Not Writ into criminal law yet, sheesh! And if it were...I (as a submissive) would break that damn libido-killing law every chance I got.

was wondering when the stirbird would hand out a spanking on this issue.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

As I said earlier, REAL people get REALLY hurt, to the point of being injured, maimed and sometimes even dead, by those who treat safewords like a bargaining chip.

Anyone who relies on a safeword to save their bacon is a fool. A safeword is nothing more than a tool to communicate an idea - "I want (or need) the scene to stop". The only "safety" a safeword can ever give someone using it is if, _IF_ the person hearing the safeword gives a rats ass about the person saying the safeword.

If a pyl is in trouble in a scene, they should be able to communicate the distress. There are valid reasons to stop a scene: physical distress, medical problems, an emotional landmine has been triggered... But if someone hasn't picked a partner who is concerned about them and their well-being, their pre-play vow of "Of course I respect safewords" doesn't mean didly. A responsible PYL will then evaluate, stop or make adjustments as needed. What determines the outcome is the integrity of the PYL. NOT the use of a "safeword".

So when you play with things like this - and especially as a leader and as someone who holds a great deal of influence over a wide group of people, including the hundreds who lurk here who you never know exist - you are playing with fire.

To act, or pretend otherwise, makes you a fool, as well as a very crass and shallow individual.

IF ANYONE looks to an internet "persona" for wisdom and guidance, they are taking a crap shoot. Particularly if they are looking to a persona they have never met or communicated with directly. Hello.... Dear Abby is nice but I don't always agree with her advice and I evaluate what advice she gives with an eye to what will work for me and what won't. It's called discernment, and judgement, and personal responsibility.

If Marquis gives advice I can use, great! If he doesn't, so what? He's not my BDSM instructor or mentor, he's just a guy I swap board messages with. If I get a case of hero worship because of his studly good looks, well then, that's my bad, isn't it? And I never, EVER confuse a list moderator with a lifestyle expert. Being a mod means someone has extra priviledges and a lot of responsiblity on a list. It doesn't make them a master with the single tail, or at training pyl's or serving frozen banana daquiri's or anything else. Take what they say that you can use, discard the rest, just like you should with any other source of free advice - you get what you pay for here on lit, just like you do anyplace else.

If someone ignores red flags, if they ignore warnings before they jump into a scene, if they ignore safe meeting procedures, if they don't have a back up plan to get their behind out of a bad situation, a safeword won't save them either. A rapist is a rapist, not because he or she ignores safewords, but because he or she is a rapist.

Witticisms and comedy and parody don't cut it, Marquis. So how about starting to act like a man instead of a little boy?

Witticisms and comedy and parody cut it just fine, thank you. Men and women both will use wit and humor and parody to get their points across at times. If you do not understand or agree with that, that's fine, but name calling doesn't exactly make you look to be "grown up" either. Stick to the issue, not the personality making the point.

Not using safewords does not make someone dangerous. Using a safeword does not make them, or you, safe. Choosing your partners wisely on the other hand, does rather improve the odds of finding someone who IS safe.

 

[RJMasters]

Ab-so-fucking-lute-ly well said...

This should have been the half time show at the super bowl...I would have enjoyed it alot more and been worth my time.

Anyone who relies on a safeword to save their bacon is a fool. A safeword is nothing more than a tool to communicate an idea - "I want (or need) the scene to stop". The only "safety" a safeword can ever give someone using it is if, _IF_ the person hearing the safeword gives a rats ass about the person saying the safeword.

If a pyl is in trouble in a scene, they should be able to communicate the distress. There are valid reasons to stop a scene: physical distress, medical problems, an emotional landmine has been triggered... But if someone hasn't picked a partner who is concerned about them and their well-being, their pre-play vow of "Of course I respect safewords" doesn't mean didly. A responsible PYL will then evaluate, stop or make adjustments as needed. What determines the outcome is the integrity of the PYL. NOT the use of a "safeword".


IF ANYONE looks to an internet "persona" for wisdom and guidance, they are taking a crap shoot. Particularly if they are looking to a persona they have never met or communicated with directly. Hello.... Dear Abby is nice but I don't always agree with her advice and I evaluate what advice she gives with an eye to what will work for me and what won't. It's called discernment, and judgement, and personal responsibility.

If Marquis gives advice I can use, great! If he doesn't, so what? He's not my BDSM instructor or mentor, he's just a guy I swap board messages with. If I get a case of hero worship because of his studly good looks, well then, that's my bad, isn't it? And I never, EVER confuse a list moderator with a lifestyle expert. Being a mod means someone has extra priviledges and a lot of responsiblity on a list. It doesn't make them a master with the single tail, or at training pyl's or serving frozen banana daquiri's or anything else. Take what they say that you can use, discard the rest, just like you should with any other source of free advice - you get what you pay for here on lit, just like you do anyplace else.

If someone ignores red flags, if they ignore warnings before they jump into a scene, if they ignore safe meeting procedures, if they don't have a back up plan to get their behind out of a bad situation, a safeword won't save them either. A rapist is a rapist, not because he or she ignores safewords, but because he or she is a rapist.



Witticisms and comedy and parody cut it just fine, thank you. Men and women both will use wit and humor and parody to get their points across at times. If you do not understand or agree with that, that's fine, but name calling doesn't exactly make you look to be "grown up" either. Stick to the issue, not the personality making the point.

Not using safewords does not make someone dangerous. Using a safeword does not make them, or you, safe. Choosing your partners wisely on the other hand, does rather improve the odds of finding someone who IS safe.

 

[*curious*]

*applaudes Geoff*

(RJ I like your new av. )

 

[Caitlynne]

**applauds ALL of Evil Geoff's post, but this part just broke my heart...

It doesn't make them a master with the single tail, or at training pyl's or serving frozen banana daquiri's or anything else.

What'd'ya mean no frozen banana daquiri's? *pouts*

 

[jadefirefly]

Thank you, Geoff, that summed up what I felt, but was unable to put into words, extremely well!

And Chris also said what I thought was glaringly obvious -- the fact that, to me and at least one or two other people on this thread, the original voyeur post was clearly Marquis' writing. The others were not.

Some of y'all may only be used to seeing alts with pathetic senses of humor and crappy writing styles, but as an admitted geek who's spent nearly 6 years playing online games, I've grown damned good at picking out alts of friends, and it's always, always, always the writing styles that are the dead giveaways.

All in all, still, a very good read from beginning to wherever the end ends up.

 

[naughtygirl69s]

Or is he too ashamed of himself to do it on his own? Speaking through you im-a-youeur, or using your ID like he did before - is pretty gutless.

And I'll tell him again, he's acting like an irresponsible little boy instead of a man.

You're right, too, jadedfirefly, that I don't spend a lot of time here. But that's not the point. There are a lot of those who lurk here and who listen - a lot. And when someone takes such serious license with what is truly important, the impact of their words can go much farther than they suspect. After all, it is because people DO listen, and respond, that we come here to interact.

Did those who raped or maimed the women I spoke of spend any lurker-time here? I have no idea. And neither do you. Did Marquis' words cause them to do what they did? No, it was already done. But there are other impressionable and easily swayed people out there who seek validation and support and an excuse for how they prey on others. They see BDSM as a game and a means of finding 'fresh meat' and of taking from the vulnerable what is not theirs to take.

Satire and parody and provocative speech have their place. But, sadly, this is not one of them. This kind of 'style' is so very wrong, and misplaced. There is a great deal of nasty, and twisted misapplication and misuse of what can be wonderful about a D/s relationship. We all know that. There are a great many people who file in the door of this forum seeking advice and help and guidance, who are troubled or unsure of themselves or their partner. We have all seen the steady parade of them. Those are the ones you have to worry about. Not the "'its only Marquis being Marquis" in crowd.

So when someone pours gasoline on the floor and plays with matches, and that person is the MODERATOR, that's lousy judgment at best - and grossly negligent or simply uncaring at worst.

It is so much more fun, though; to 'pat me on the head' and say 'tsk, tsk' when it is revealed that it is all a huge joke? The 'in crowd' gets the joke, and that's what's really important here, isn't it?

haven't you seen "Saw" lighten the fuck up

(I have to admit, I was 2 minutes away from sending Marquis and "im_a_voyer" a PM bitching him out and telling her to run for her life )

 

[Guest]

Anyone who relies on a safeword to save their bacon is a fool. A safeword is nothing more than a tool to communicate an idea - "I want (or need) the scene to stop". The only "safety" a safeword can ever give someone using it is if, _IF_ the person hearing the safeword gives a rats ass about the person saying the safeword.

If a pyl is in trouble in a scene, they should be able to communicate the distress. There are valid reasons to stop a scene: physical distress, medical problems, an emotional landmine has been triggered... But if someone hasn't picked a partner who is concerned about them and their well-being, their pre-play vow of "Of course I respect safewords" doesn't mean didly. A responsible PYL will then evaluate, stop or make adjustments as needed. What determines the outcome is the integrity of the PYL. NOT the use of a "safeword".


IF ANYONE looks to an internet "persona" for wisdom and guidance, they are taking a crap shoot. Particularly if they are looking to a persona they have never met or communicated with directly. Hello.... Dear Abby is nice but I don't always agree with her advice and I evaluate what advice she gives with an eye to what will work for me and what won't. It's called discernment, and judgement, and personal responsibility.

If Marquis gives advice I can use, great! If he doesn't, so what? He's not my BDSM instructor or mentor, he's just a guy I swap board messages with. If I get a case of hero worship because of his studly good looks, well then, that's my bad, isn't it? And I never, EVER confuse a list moderator with a lifestyle expert. Being a mod means someone has extra priviledges and a lot of responsiblity on a list. It doesn't make them a master with the single tail, or at training pyl's or serving frozen banana daquiri's or anything else. Take what they say that you can use, discard the rest, just like you should with any other source of free advice - you get what you pay for here on lit, just like you do anyplace else.

If someone ignores red flags, if they ignore warnings before they jump into a scene, if they ignore safe meeting procedures, if they don't have a back up plan to get their behind out of a bad situation, a safeword won't save them either. A rapist is a rapist, not because he or she ignores safewords, but because he or she is a rapist.



Witticisms and comedy and parody cut it just fine, thank you. Men and women both will use wit and humor and parody to get their points across at times. If you do not understand or agree with that, that's fine, but name calling doesn't exactly make you look to be "grown up" either. Stick to the issue, not the personality making the point.

Not using safewords does not make someone dangerous. Using a safeword does not make them, or you, safe. Choosing your partners wisely on the other hand, does rather improve the odds of finding someone who IS safe.

I would be "Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off" Or some other dumb ass internet convention...
If I weren't, as usual, applauding EG's sensibility.

I suffer from the deplorable habit of occaisionally giving advice... I have no illusions about it though... People will tend to do, what agrees with what they wanted to do anyway.
That's also what they generally hear.
What they want to.
In the end, free advice is worth exactly what it cost. (trite but true)
Sometime's it's good...Sometimes it sucks...
Ever notice how often "good advice" boils down to telling people what they don't want to hear?

As for the whole "safeword" issue....
I have done this stuff for a while, and I use the safeword system... But then I have always made it clear, right up front, that I am NOT A FUCKING MIND READER...And if I was I wouldn't admit it.(..Hmmm Though I'd be a lot richer by now.).
Some folks protest that the idea of a safeword is mutually exclusive to the idea of being a "slave".
*shrug*
Perhaps it is...In the end, that has to be up to them and their partner.

Disclaimer: What follows is personal opinion. (Duh, what else could it be?)

I find that a safeword is a part of "sceneing" with all it's physical and psychological demands.. Some of which "may" exceed the tolerance or ability of the submissive partner.
And it is a part that "I" insist on. Nice thing about being Dom, I can do that.
To me it's just another part of the safety system, like having a quick release on a suspension rig, or keeping a pair of EMT shears handy.
If someone doesn't want to use the safeword/signal system, then that is their choice...
But..
If you make that choice, make sure you are SURE thats what you want ... Then if something goes wrong...Take your lumps. Go to the ER if necessary..And then shut the fuck up about it. You will have fucked up..If you live, learn from it.
If nothing goes wrong then congrats..
Either way, the Dom/me/Pyl whatever the fuck is not an "evil. abusive, etc etc etc "...Pick your fave. Because they didn't realize that in some particular they exceeded your tolerance. Whith the exception of of a previously set, and understood, limit.
But then I've noticed that the idea of "scene negotiation" seems to bug some people even more than a safeword.
(And yes, "negotiation" may not be needed in a long term ongoing play partnership or relationship... Where the partners KNOW each others limits)

My advice (caveat emptor) however would be... Unless you actually have enough RT experience to have a good idea about RT things..Then this is not a good choice for you.
Hell, sometimes even if you DO have experience this isn't a good choice..
Remember, both parties involved are (theoreticly at least) human...Mistakes happen... And people with loads of experience will tell you that things change on a day to day basis.
Never forget...(To quote Mr. Jones) "Blind, Stinking, Do-Da Luck".
*shrug*
Shit Happens.

More opinion:

As for the relative seriousness of this thread, the subject matter thereof, and the assorted fights...
*shrug*
It's getting to the point around here where you can't seem to have a damned conversation of any sort without it devolving into a host of random hijacks, or a nasty brawl, or both.
Which is....getting old.

 

[Guest]

Singularity, this thread might have caused some to think safe-words are optional/not really the big 'no'. But I don't remember a thread where many of the regulars, the 'in croud' as you call them, posted seriously on the topic of safe-words. All I have thought of them so far is 'have one, be safe'. All I heard from others here is wether they have or don't have one, if they use it often or never. There never was any discussion about them. About how they offer the opportunity for topping from the bottom. How a PYL can make sure they are only used when really needed instead of used to get out of situations not to the liking of the pyl.

And I really don't think that any of the men your friends happened to meet (or men like them) would be influenced by this. Either they are stupid, then they don't come here to learn, or they are evil, then they don't care what anyone says. The smart ones might even learn more from this thread than from others saying 'have a safe-word, always respect it, basta'.

While I would protest vigorously(as would many others), any possibility of being part of something so grotesque as an "in crowd".
Please see post #110.
I think it's pretty consistant with the opinions that I have expressed over the years regarding the idea of "safewords".

I would put forth that the bad situations/assorted horror stories I have heard the most of, have been those "Meeting the online partner for the first time" ones.
And I am wondering how many of the aforementioned cases fall into that category.

Yes, I have been through the "I'm sorry the online dom you decided to meet without a safety net, and with no realistic precautions, and without giving it enough time to have even a clue as to what he/she really was, was an abusive asshole" conversation..
More than once...
*sigh*
Which usually devolves into advice (if things weren't too severe, and they think they want to continue) to go to the local munch/plarty group. Theoreticly to allow them to ease into things in a safe venue.. Or if the circumstances are too bad, to seek counciling.
Which advice is worth approximately jack shit.... Because once the damage is done...It's done.
Once someone has chosen to ignore the copius information available on first meetings...
*shrug*
What do you tell em?
The same with safewords...

 

[*curious*]

More opinion:

As for the relative seriousness of this thread, the subject matter thereof, and the assorted fights...
*shrug*
It's getting to the point around here where you can't seem to have a damned conversation of any sort without it devolving into a host of random hijacks, or a nasty brawl, or both.
Which is....getting old.

Yup.

 

[DVS]

Think of a newbie sub, first playing with a Dom. Isn't she going to require every one of her limits be respected? Isn't she going to require the Dom stop when she says the safe word? Isn't any trust between these two going to be damaged, if the Dom doesn't adhere to the SS&C conditions they decided on when they first met?

What if you were a newbie sub and your Dom didn't listen to you and stop with the flogger when you mentioned the safe word? What if he was also a newbie and he got so wrapped up in his experience, that he didn't want to stop when you said stop.

Would you feel good about going back with this guy again? Would you trust him to stop the next time you said the safe word? Would you allow him to tie you up and even gag you after even a couple of times of not respecting your wishes or your limits?

Sure, any seasoned player has played without a safe word. I have, too. In any relationship, after a period of time, you get to know your partner well enough that a safe word probably isn't necessary. They both know that neither of them will deviate from their "normal" mannerisms. And, the longer this couple stays together, the less a safe word is ever going to be necessary.

And, there are couples who enjoy living on the edge and feel secure without a safe word from the beginning. That's up to them, but I always require a safe word in the beginning, just so I'm always within the set limits we've agreed upon.

I enjoy playing with newbies. And because I always stay within any set limits, they seem to enjoy me, too. Trust is a very large part of any BDSM relationship and developing that trust is the only way you're going to be able to advance into bondage and gags and the finer aspects of mental and physical control.

If the sub is always wondering if what I'm going to do is safe for her instead of letting go and experiencing the scene, that limits her enjoyment, my enjoyment and it damages any trust development between us.

So, sure, there are couples who can stay together, even if the Dom fails to stop when the sub says the safe word. There are some that don't even have a safe word. But, there are also those who require a safe word for normal SS&C relations and for developing a trust between them. Suffice it to say, the more she trusts you, the more you are going to be allowed to do to her. It's as simple as that.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Suffice it to say, the more she trusts you, the more you are going to be allowed to do to her. It's as simple as that.

You have said many wise things here but this statement does suffice quite nicely.

 

[raven2]

Think of a newbie sub, first playing with a Dom. Isn't she going to require every one of her limits be respected? Isn't she going to require the Dom stop when she says the safe word? Isn't any trust between these two going to be damaged, if the Dom doesn't adhere to the SS&C conditions they decided on when they first met?

What if you were a newbie sub and your Dom didn't listen to you and stop with the flogger when you mentioned the safe word? What if he was also a newbie and he got so wrapped up in his experience, that he didn't want to stop when you said stop.

Would you feel good about going back with this guy again? Would you trust him to stop the next time you said the safe word? Would you allow him to tie you up and even gag you after even a couple of times of not respecting your wishes or your limits?

Sure, any seasoned player has played without a safe word. I have, too. In any relationship, after a period of time, you get to know your partner well enough that a safe word probably isn't necessary. They both know that neither of them will deviate from their "normal" mannerisms. And, the longer this couple stays together, the less a safe word is ever going to be necessary.

And, there are couples who enjoy living on the edge and feel secure without a safe word from the beginning. That's up to them, but I always require a safe word in the beginning, just so I'm always within the set limits we've agreed upon.

I enjoy playing with newbies. And because I always stay within any set limits, they seem to enjoy me, too. Trust is a very large part of any BDSM relationship and developing that trust is the only way you're going to be able to advance into bondage and gags and the finer aspects of mental and physical control.

If the sub is always wondering if what I'm going to do is safe for her instead of letting go and experiencing the scene, that limits her enjoyment, my enjoyment and it damages any trust development between us.

So, sure, there are couples who can stay together, even if the Dom fails to stop when the sub says the safe word. There are some that don't even have a safe word. But, there are also those who require a safe word for normal SS&C relations and for developing a trust between them. Suffice it to say, the more she trusts you, the more you are going to be allowed to do to her. It's as simple as that.

Very nicely stated.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

What'd'ya mean no frozen banana daquiri's? *pouts*

*smiles sweetly* I didn't say no frozen daquiri's, sweet Caitlynne (thank you for the props BTW!). I said being a mod doesn't make you an expert at serving them....

*evil grin*
Since I am not a moderator I can claim to be an expert at serving frozen banana daquiris... poured slowly on a well bound sub... scraped into freezing little puddles with a knife... torturously, slowy licked off....

 

[BeachGurl2]

Go away for a couple of days, and I miss all the fun.

Several of the people on this thread always have such a great way of delivering sane advice in a calm manner. Geoff, I often find myself on the same page with you. Thanks for the things you say that make me think.

Ultimately, everyone has to develop their own way of doing things within their own relationship. We have a safeword and my Dom wishes I would use it more often so that he could better judge just where my edge is. But since I also like testing my own edge/limit, I tend not to use it until the very last second, if at all. We're working on a happy medium at the moment. He's learning to listen more to my tone - and of course, those moans and screams - to determine when he's getting close to my limit.

That said, the bottom line is the level of trust, respect, and caring you have in your relationship. I can allow him to go way beyond because I trust him implicitly. He's willing to push the limits, even without me using the safeword, because he trusts me implicitly. And the evil grin he gets on his face when he hits me a little harder than last time with the flogger makes me smile.