What I learned from publishing a Loving Wives story

[djrip]

You created a lot of unsavory, unlikeable characters. I could not cheer for anyone

Not even First Cathy!? It's hard to produce an, I mean a, son.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

My stories have romance, exhibitionistic tendencies, they have cheating, they potentially have some dominant forces...but ultimately they are fetish stories so that's where they go!

Fetish category is also a huge bag of everything. I don't see how it helps a reader to narrow down his search, when that category has everything from cuckold, breeding, sissy fetishes, through foot, nursing, food fetishes, all the way to the extreme pain or scat fetishes. Having a fetish or two doesn't make you automatically like every other fetish out there - it might actually be quite the opposite. Some fetishes directly oppose some other fetishes etc.
Categories were a necessary crutch in the early days, but now they are only a hinderance.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Another thing I've noticed. For the Geek Pride story I have some tags that have probably never been used on Lit. For one thing, some of them are not about sexual matters at all. But, they seem to fit the story.

Reasonably speaking, a story doesn't need that many tags really. Several tags to cover the sexual kinks present and some tags to let the reader know if its long or short, slow burn or not, romance, tragedy, high fantasy, SF, mystery, drama, crime, war etc.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Reasonably speaking, a story doesn't need that many tags really. Several tags to cover the sexual kinks present and some tags to let the reader know if its long or short, slow burn or not, romance, tragedy, high fantasy, SF, mystery, drama, crime, war etc.

If Lit only allows ten, I can live with that (I kind of have to, don't I?). Just let me write my own.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Surely, after 25 years of stories, the database now has all the tags that are needed.

I don't know that, actually. The earliest reference to the word "cuckquean" on the site showed up in 2005, for example, and its use as a tag is extremely rare until the 2010s. Fleshlight, and Realdoll both show up around the same time. Teledildonics shows up in 2013. I doubt, especially with the advent of all sorts of new technology, that we've found all the tags we're ever going to need, and even if we had, you're saying "we should only have one tag for each," but you're still talking about huge tag cloud, and then people are going to need to look for the exact thing they want. "Cock and ball torture" versus "CBT," for example, but as has been discussed elsewhere, "CBT" can refer to at least three or four other things that can show up as a story element. Maybe it could be like a wikipedia page (CBT can refer to..." and then a link to the "main" tag, but that's just going to get even messier.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

"Cock and ball torture" versus "CBT," for example, but as has been discussed elsewhere, "CBT" can refer to at least three or four other things that can show up as a story element. Maybe it could be like a wikipedia page (CBT can refer to..." and then a link to the "main" tag, but that's just going to get even messier.

Not sure what you mean there. Lit could always add more fixed tags periodically, if the need arises. Also there is no way to mix up CBT with something else if you don't use abbreviations at all. Just call the tag "cock and ball torture". It is exactly in the present tag system where the mix up could arise. One author's CBT might not be the same thing as the other author's CBT, while in fixed tag system Lit could even have a page with a small explanation for every tag.

but you're still talking about huge tag cloud, and then people are going to need to look for the exact thing they want.

That is the whole point kinda, isn't it - people being able to search for the exact thing they want? Searching for stories that have a certain tag or tags and even exclude stories that have those tags but also have some other tag that is a turn-off for them.

 

[EmilyMiller]

What percentage of AH threads reference categories vs tags. I think it must be asymptotically 100%.

Em

 

[AwkwardlySet]

If Lit only allows ten, I can live with that (I kind of have to, don't I?). Just let me write my own.

But it doesn't have to be ten, does it? Right now, the limit is ten, because there are still categories present, which are supposed to help narrow things down so ten tags could be good enough. By switching to tag-only system it would only make sense to allow the story to have a lot more tags, because there would be no more categories to (often wrongly )narrow things down.

 

[HordHolm]

That is the whole point kinda, isn't it - people being able to search for the exact thing they want? Searching for stories that have a certain tag or tags and even exclude stories that have those tags but also have some other tag that is a turn-off for them.

I get the point of this, but what about the casual browser who doesn't have an absolutely fixed idea of what they want to read? The current loose category system has a benefit for this reader because it narrows down the flood of new stories into something manageable whilst at the same time leaving something to chance. I've read more than one story by happening on it by chance, without having a fixed idea of a particular thing that I'm looking for, in the same way that I've found chance books in bookshops by just wandering amongst the shelves, as opposed to the Amazon experience which rather insists you have to know what your key words are before you begin.

There are 32 main categories at the moment, into which new stories are divided. That's already quite bulky, but it can keep new stories down to about a page daily in the most popular categories. With tags that could comfortably expand to something approaching 200 or more. How to browse that for something unless you already know what you want? Sure, it would lessen the number of new stories per (most) tags to a handful, but with so many tags it would be impossible to comfortably browse them.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Endless, clay-court, baseline rally…

Em

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I get the point of this, but what about the casual browser who doesn't have an absolutely fixed idea of what they want to read? The current loose category system has a benefit for this reader because it narrows down the flood of new stories into something manageable whilst at the same time leaving something to chance.

How is the system I proposed restricting in that sense? It is even better, I would say. A reader doesn't have to pick 10 tags in his search, he can pick only one if he wants, and he can get a huge variety of stories in his search results. Or he can search with 2 tags. Or he can just search for stories that don't have some specific tag or tags. Current system doesn't allow that. He needs to browse through a category, even though it is likely he would find satisfying stories in multiple categories. Or he can just search for story text or tags, but then he is once again fucked by the fact that there is 10 ways one can spell or write every kink, because every abbreviation or even a misspell is allowed when posting a story.

 

[Comshaw]

Tags - I've never used them. Maybe that's why my stories are kinda' on the low end in the reads department huh? I'll have to think on if I want to use them, or not.

While we are talking about LW burn the bitch/bastard stories, I do have a question. It's slightly off-topic but not far.

Your wife/husband cheats on you, what do you do? There is a plethora of options: work it out, walk away, take them back, make them pay just to name a few. Having been married for 50 plus years and having been through a few things I can't imagine trying anything but the first to begin with. As someone who considers an absolute (I would never...) as the only never, I think (and know from experience) that even cheating can be worked through. For me, it hinges on if you still love each other. I can't imagine walking away from my marriage when I still loved her. But that's me. If there was no love left, from one or the other or both sides, that's a different thing altogether. I'd probably just walk away. However different people see it differently.

A quote from the Delhi Lama, "People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they’re not on your road doesn’t mean they’ve gotten lost."


Comshaw

 

[NoTalentHack]

How is the system I proposed restricting in that sense? It is even better, I would say. A reader doesn't have to pick 10 tags in his search, he can pick only one if he wants, and he can get a huge variety of stories in his search results. Or he can search with 2 tags. Or he can just search for stories that don't have some specific tag or tags. Current system doesn't allow that. He needs to browse through a category, even though it is likely he would find satisfying stories in multiple categories. Or he can just search for story text or tags, but then he is once again fucked by the fact that there is 10 ways one can spell or write every kink, because every abbreviation or even a misspell is allowed when posting a story.

Because he does have to search. The fact that there are a handful of "metatags" (Anal, Audio, BDSM, etc.) that users can go to and have a reasonable chance of finding something they like is helpful. They can search within those categories for specific tags they want already. Having the ability to exempt stuff is fine, like if you want LW but no BTB and no cuck, but that's not a thing that needs to be part of a big "let's get rid of all the tags" push; it can just be another thing that gets added to the current system.

I don't hate the idea of having unified tags, although I'm not looking forward to the red tape that will be necessary to get a new one in if Manu and Laurel have to handle it; I expect it will be very chicken and egg. "I want X tag in." "There aren't enough stories that have X as a component." "That's because people can't search for X, so they don't have a good way to find it." "Then get more people to write so that we can have an X tag."

But that also means they have to go back and tag/retag everything that's come before, and people don't just use the tags for the intended use; sometimes it's metacommentary, such as the "cuck shit" tag that a bunch of writers put on LW to get a rise out of trolls.

You're basically talking about a huge overhaul for a relatively minimal gain on a site that has only a handful of people helping to run it. Could the category system use some improvements? Sure. Loving Spouses instead of Loving Wives, etc. But a big overhaul just isn't worth the effort, especially given the readership Literotica already has. Hell, I'd like to see some stats on how many people use the original format of the site versus the new one.

 

[EmilyMiller]

How do you lock down a thread again?

Em

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Of course it is worth the effort, because if anything, this website is centered on readers and this change would improve their search for stories by a lot. You are also making a big deal out of fixed tags, just because it can't cover every miniscule new tag someone comes up with. There was an argument in one of the previous posts about readers maybe not wanting to search for too specific kinds of stories, but now somehow, the problem is because in a huge amount of fixed tags, some possible new niche tag wouldn't be present. You can't have it both ways.
Yes, it would require a decent amount of work to implement these changes, that is true, but as I said already, Lit has shown time and again that readers are the most important thing by far, so making it easier for readers to get to the kind of stories they prefer makes sense by their own philosophy. It would probably be possible to keep the old system together with the new one and see how things go.
Also, I know everyone keeps perpetuating this thing how two people are doing everything, but it is really starting to sound like a religion or a cult even. No one knows fuck all about how the website is really being run.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

How do you lock down a thread again?

Em

Sorry for hijacking your thread, but people keep picking on what was basically a post with two sentences about categories being obsolete.

 

[Rob_Royale]

I'm now very interested in how my current WIP will do in LW. It's about a young man who goes to work for and ends up living with, a mature couple (45-ish) with an open marriage. Very shortly, he finds himself as the wife's plus one. Time will tell I suppose.

Well, it's done and submitted. We'll see how it goes. I'm happy with the story and that's what matters.
On to my story for the AI challenge, my first Sci-Fi/Fantasy attempt.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I don't hate the idea of having unified tags, although I'm not looking forward to the red tape that will be necessary to get a new one in if Manu and Laurel have to handle it; I expect it will be very chicken and egg. "I want X tag in." "There aren't enough stories that have X as a component." "That's because people can't search for X, so they don't have a good way to find it." "Then get more people to write so that we can have an X tag."

Just harking back to this - tags are writer generated, not site generated. You don't have to "apply" for a new tag - you just add it to your tag list. Although, you'd be well advised to check the category tag lists first, to use an existing one if it exists.

The site collates tag lists by category, and identifies the amount of usage by different font sizes, so you can see the most commonly used ones.

Laurel will, at her discretion, add tags to your story - she's done it often enough on mine.

 

[SimonDoom]

How do you lock down a thread again?

Em

LOL. Another hijacked thread.

Back to your topic: I added to my experiment by publishing a sequel story to my Loving Wives story, only this time I published it in the Mature category. The results are:

Insatiable Mrs. Pillsbury (Loving Wives) (5/1/2023): 30,543 views, 418 votes, 47 favorites, 24 comments, score 3.81.

Mrs. Pillsbury at the Grocery Store (Mature) (5/22/2023): 27,224 views, 362 votes, 31 favorites, 10 comments, score 4.57.

The view and vote numbers are pretty similar, considering the second story was published three weeks after the first. There's a higher level of engagement with the Loving Wives story -- more comments and more favorites per view. The scores are far apart. Since my first story focuses in particular on an older married woman and a younger man, just like the second story, I probably could have published it in mature as well and received similar numbers but a higher score.

I'm mildly surprised there's not a greater disparity in the views, because I thought Loving Wives would attract more views relative to Mature, despite some of the hostility.

My takeaway is that I found Loving Wives was not quite the hostile snake pit I thought it might be, and the two stories, which are comparable in content and tone, did about equally well, if one overlooks the score difference.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I'm mildly surprised there's not a greater disparity in the views, because I thought Loving Wives would attract more views relative to Mature, despite some of the hostility.

It has to do with the content and the rating; I’ve noticed it over the last few postings I’ve made there.

Assuming decent writing, fun, sexy romps typically get between 3-4 stars; cuckold stories 2-3; “serious” stories” between 3.5 and 4.5 depending on the ending. This is just speaking in broad strokes, of course. Those ratings are usually baked in within a 12-18 hours; what you’ve got by the end of the first day is what you’ll have for the next month, within .1-2 score up or down. And the folks reading there know that; therefore, if they’re browsing for a “serious” story, which tend to be the most popular/highest rated, they know the range to look at. Views follow ratings after the first day or so, and it pretty much stays that way.

 

[SimonDoom]

It has to do with the content and the rating; I’ve noticed it over the last few postings I’ve made there.

Assuming decent writing, fun, sexy romps typically get between 3-4 stars; cuckold stories 2-3; “serious” stories” between 3.5 and 4.5 depending on the ending. This is just speaking in broad strokes, of course. Those ratings are usually baked in within a 12-18 hours; what you’ve got by the end of the first day is what you’ll have for the next month, within .1-2 score up or down. And the folks reading there know that; therefore, if they’re browsing for a “serious” story, which tend to be the most popular/highest rated, they know the range to look at. Views follow ratings after the first day or so, and it pretty much stays that way.

That makes sense, and it fits pretty well with my observations of the LW story in its first month.

 

[EmilyMiller]

LOL. Another hijacked thread.

Back to your topic: I added to my experiment by publishing a sequel story to my Loving Wives story, only this time I published it in the Mature category. The results are:

Insatiable Mrs. Pillsbury (Loving Wives) (5/1/2023): 30,543 views, 418 votes, 47 favorites, 24 comments, score 3.81.

Mrs. Pillsbury at the Grocery Store (Mature) (5/22/2023): 27,224 views, 362 votes, 31 favorites, 10 comments, score 4.57.

The view and vote numbers are pretty similar, considering the second story was published three weeks after the first. There's a higher level of engagement with the Loving Wives story -- more comments and more favorites per view. The scores are far apart. Since my first story focuses in particular on an older married woman and a younger man, just like the second story, I probably could have published it in mature as well and received similar numbers but a higher score.

I'm mildly surprised there's not a greater disparity in the views, because I thought Loving Wives would attract more views relative to Mature, despite some of the hostility.

My takeaway is that I found Loving Wives was not quite the hostile snake pit I thought it might be, and the two stories, which are comparable in content and tone, did about equally well, if one overlooks the score difference.

We’ll shortly see how a totally cisnormative EmilyMiler LW tale goes. Then I suspect there is a pack of hyenas who won’t be too interested in the contents.

I personally think it’s my best story to date, but am resigned to it being dragged through the village behind a cart so that people can throw dung at it.

If a few like it, I’m good. Have given up on the rest.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

It has to do with the content and the rating; I’ve noticed it over the last few postings I’ve made there.

Assuming decent writing, fun, sexy romps typically get between 3-4 stars; cuckold stories 2-3; “serious” stories” between 3.5 and 4.5 depending on the ending. This is just speaking in broad strokes, of course. Those ratings are usually baked in within a 12-18 hours; what you’ve got by the end of the first day is what you’ll have for the next month, within .1-2 score up or down. And the folks reading there know that; therefore, if they’re browsing for a “serious” story, which tend to be the most popular/highest rated, they know the range to look at. Views follow ratings after the first day or so, and it pretty much stays that way.

My second LW attempt - just submitted - is serious and heterosexual. Then maybe I should have published it under a pseudonym.

Em

 

[HordHolm]

I personally think it’s my best story to date, but am resigned to it being dragged through the village behind a cart so that people can throw dung at it.

As long as they don't appear outside your castle with pitchforks and burning torches it probably counts as a win

 

[EmilyMiller]

As long as they don't appear outside your castle with pitchforks and burning torches it probably counts as a win

No bitches were burned in the making of this story, which was supervised by the American Humane Society.

Em