Can We Talk About Race?

[LAHomedog]

This is about writing. I promise.

I am a senior-citizen, white American. Can we talk about race?

I always say that "I don't notice race." That of course is total bullshit. Everybody notices race. The same way we all notice hair color, if the person is wearing a beard or not, their attitude and style, their clothes, their manner. We notice everything about everyone.

To me, "I don't notice race," means it doesn't factor into my feelings about you as a human being. I like or dislike you for who you are as a human being.

Our best friends are black. My best friend was the lead tenor of a world famous band with multiple Top Ten hits who spent 20 years touring the world. He is black. I am white. We both know it, obviously. Who cares.

I have a very close friend who is the daughter of an icon who actually sat on the lap of Martin Luther King as he wrote the "I've Got A Dream" speech. That is a true story. Who cares. We have been friends for 45 years. And after my wife, is the woman who I am closest to.. No sex, ever. Friends only. Deep loving, supportive friends.

Let's get real. Like every other tweak in the world, race is a kink. Mine is red hair. We can say for this discussion, that is a race. Let's call redheads a race.

There are many others, but I am writing my "Summer Love" story and running across "Big Black Cock," and I find myself bucking against that personally and socially.

I'm an aging jock.. OK, I'm an older than dirt, aging jock, and have spent my life in locker rooms and know that race does not decided penis size.

But is it racist to cowtow to the BBC myth of pornography?

Every ounce of me says it is. Yet, if writing for the entire universe, who knows what will trigger a kink.

Any thoughts? I respect you all so much as writers and thinkers, I'd love to hear you chipped in on this one. It is delicate, but I believe important.

Thanks.

 

[Jake_Raazor]

It's cliched, but a cliche that plays into people's fantasies. I had a character joke about it along the lines of 'I thought it was a stereotype' and the reply 'It is, but don't tell anyone, it works'.

The phrase 'Big Black Cock' I avoid. I also try and avoid referring to someones race beyond the initial description and I like a diverse mix of characters when it comes to race and ethnicity because that reflects the UK.

On the whole I would dial it down, it can be inferred rather than explicit. Some men have bigger dicks, some of these men may be black, that's the way it goes sort of thing.

Edit: Having said all that I do have a cuckold series which does play into the 'black, big cock', theme. The cuckold stories are intended to be more humorous than the main storyline so it has a more stereotypical element.

I guess, 'what the hell do I know' pretty much sums up my thoughts lol.

 

[Ilfen1]

What's your definition of "BBC"?

Anyone can have a big dick. Asian men can have big dicks. White men can have big dicks, and indeed I'm sure a very large portion of stories on this site involve a white male protagonist with a big dick and sexual partners who praise them for it(especially in the bedroom).

If we are to interpret the meaning of "BBC" figuratively, at face value, then the vast majority of english erotica would be "BWC".

So, that being said, why can't Black people be treated the same?

What I do have a problem with, is with the fetish for a stereotypical "other", someone who not only has freakishly big proportions, but also is presented as an adversary who the non-black protagonist has to protect his women from. Typically women are portrayed as being hopelessly, magnetically attracted to the black man on account of how virile he is. We may see special lingo being used, such as being "blacked".

Essentially the whole scenario is just playing out deep-seated fears and insecurities, ones that are unfounded.

If THAT is how BBC is supposed to be, then yea I'd imagine black people wouldn't be too cool with it either.

 

[Jada59]

I tend not to notice race unless a person is wearing unusual (for here) clothing or is extremely dark as in blue/black skin. Yes, I had a black BF and currently have two Latino BFs. Sometimes when our arms are touching, I will notice that our skin is different.

My gardener is mixed race. I only know this because he told me. I am as pale as can be. The parts of him that are not touched by sun are the exact same color as my skin. But the tanned parts get very dark.

I had a shocker a few years ago on FB. I found a guy named Craig. We went to school together. His daughter is the same age as mine. In looking at her with her friends, I noticed that she was Japanese. Wait! That meant that Craig was... Yep. Japanese. His last name is Japanese. And that would explain why his mom brought those yummy seaweed crackers on class field trips. I felt kind of stupid when I realized.

Worse still, I always thought my Jr. High cooking partner was French. Not a race, I know. Her husband got her a DNA test as a gift. She posted the results on FB. Said all this time she thought she was black and came from slavery. She is part black, but more Chinese than anything and came from royalty. When I told her I thought she was French, she laughed. I remember her speaking fluent French.

Maybe I'm just ignorant. I can notice details that others don't, but totally miss out on obvious things. Years ago, I worked at a place where we entered the side door and went to the security window to ask the security guard for our locker key. I knew the guy had curly red hair, green eyes and perfect teeth. But I did not notice that he was in a wheelchair until he left the break room. only then did I notice him wheeling himself out.

 

[XerXesXu]

Every ounce of me says it is. Yet, if writing for the entire universe, who knows what will trigger a kink.


Thanks.

Could you expand on that? You seem to say that you’re convinced the BBC trope is racist, but if it is a kink then it’s … What … excusable? Would you/do you use it? On what terms would you find it acceptable for others to use it?

It seems to have originated in that brand of racism peculiar to the USA, White Supremacy. Certain inter-racial relationships were considered taboo and outlawed. Can it be, like incest, simply a condiment on a fantasy, separable, like any other fantasy, from reality, real feelings and attitudes?

Would the sex or race of the fantasist be relevant?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Any thoughts? I respect you all so much as writers and thinkers, I'd love to hear you chipped in on this one. It is delicate, but I believe important.

Since I tend to write characters inspired by those around me or who are part of my life history, those who I'm attracted to, race might be a part of their persona, just as height or hair colour or body size are part of who that person is.

Does it get special mention in a story, a special place? Other than a very personal story about a relationship with a part aboriginal woman, a member of the stolen generation, no. Did I know she was part aboriginal at the time? No. It was only much later that I discovered her cultural legacy, and understood some of what defined her then (in the mid seventies). Did her race affect how much I loved her? Given I didn't know at the time, obviously not.

Thus far, I've got stories that mention a Chinese woman, a South American woman (Honduran, I think), an Indian girl, several Catholic characters, an atheist or two, several blondes, quite a few woman with long hair (pre-Raphaelite hair, coz long term girlfriend, so...), mostly brunettes, a couple of short cropped skulls, tall women, a couple of autistic characters, short women, a woman in a wheelchair, a trans woman. And so on.

Why race gets a special track of its own is beyond me. It doesn't get a special place in my erotic repertoire - it might get a mention, it might not. Depends who inspired the story.

 

[WinsomeWeb]

It is racist, but the racism always struck me as the appeal behind the kink of "big black cock", and I don't really think that's a problem anymore than non-con stories are a problem, or incest stories are a problem. What kinks people have are a complex arrangement of many factors, and if what a person likes is the idea of big black dicks putting to shame the dicks of all other races, then that shouldn't be a problem for anyone.

I think the danger in these fetishes is really only when a person starts participating in them in a way that would be irresponsible or unreasonable outside of fiction and fantasy, the same way it would be morally wrong to let incest or non-consensual fantasies become a part of one's real life relationships or practices.

Fiction is a wonderful tool to explore scenarios that are, in real life, just awful, and I don't think anyone should feel inherently bad for writing or reading things that are less than righteous.

 

[oggbashan]

I don't write about BBC or about interracial relationships as a taboo. To me whether someone is a different colour or race is irrelevant and not at all sexy.
There can be mileage in writing about the clash of cultures, parental attitudes etc as a source of conflict - but if two people fall in love across cultural divides? Why not?

 

[TadOverdon]

I don't believe there's a way for white folks to productively discuss racism in a larger sense that's entirely honest while being brief and reassuring. By which I mean, I think you can choose one or two of those but not all three.

Having opened with that unnecessary and self-important position statement, two cents worth of anecdotes.

As a consumer: all right then, IR is one of the kinks that flips my switch. If I happen to want to look at pictures of guys online I've got one go-to, the best known high-end IR niche site, and the rest of the Internet might as well not exist. Except for a couple of cartoon sites, but the ones that specialize in IR are too awful to bother with. I read some of the BBC fiction too, but most of it doesn't do much for me.

Look at Pornhub's search map to get an idea of just how popular IR is, in the U.S. at least.

As a writer: I can't really do it, not employing most of the cliche phrases and scenarios.

I write what RubenR referred to as stories for light entertainment, stroke fiction, and in a long story we try to hit a number of different kinks. I feel like a novel works if the reader finds at least two or three pages in it that revs their engine well enough to make them open the file more than once...just as long as it's a lot of different paragraphs for a lot of different people.

So, making notes for the last two books we started with IR scenes in each. One, in fact, was originally premised on an incestuous IR relationship. And boy do the tropes fall apart quick on that one. The stock phrases and situations don't even make sense as I'm typing the words. So I wind up kinda circumnavigating it all.

I don't use racial descriptive tags for the most part, though I usually know what the ethnicity and background of the characters are and sometimes communicate it through specific bits of physical description or narrative about their experiences.

So, I guess I'm trying to have it both ways, which I know that I really can't: I want to service the IR kink without writing things that make me feel too squicky and dumb.

I should just own up and either drop it or do it.

TL;DR: When every guy up to bat has a big dick, does it make sense to sort by color?

 

[Trionyx]

Expanding on this question a bit more would be the question of whether the Interracial Love category is inappropriate or not. Should we be fetishizing interracial relationships or is it nothing more than liking redheads, big breasts or tight asses?

 

[MelissaBaby]

I am white. My husband is black. Whenever I mention this fact, or it somehow comes up in conversation with a group of women, at least one of them will say "Oh, I've always loved Denzel" or "That Michael B. Jordan is so sexy." My usual response is to shrug and say "My husband looks kind of like Forest Whittaker."

The BBC cliche is not just a harmless trope.The first time we slept together, he was clearly very anxious. That is unusual for him, he is general a pretty confident, self assured guy. I managed to coax the reason out of him. He really wanted to please me, he said, but he was worried because "white girls have such high expectations of us."

This kind and tender, intelligent and thoughtful man was filled with anxiety because he thought I might be disappointed to find out the I wasn't in bed with some dude named Biggie Johnson or Willie Kingsnake.

So, yeah, I guess I'm not real fond of BBC porn.

In my own writing I have included people of various ethnicities in my casts of characters. I don't make an issue of their ethnicity unless it is vital to the story (French Canadian and Native American characters in Ranger Ramona, for example.)

In my Alvin and Mary series, which covers a span of about sixty years, I used an increasing number of ethnic names as time passed, as an indicator of the changing society. In early chapters people had surnames like Winslow and Pierce and Martin, as time passed more and more of them were named Lopez or Chau.

The one thing I am very reticent to do is to use a person of another ethnicity as a POV character. I have done so, but very cautiously. I can confidently describe the persona and the behaviors of a person. Describing the inner thoughts and feelings of someone from a very different background is much more difficult.

The one exception would be the character of Daniela Ortega in my Mary and Alvin series. She is a Sephardic Jew of Portuguese extraction. Where the story touched on matters where her family background was an issue, I consulted with a Jewish friend to make sure I was not in any way misrepresenting what a person such as Danni would think or might feel. In the one chapter when it really mattered, in which her mother died and the Jewish funeral customs were very important, I had my friend read the whole chapter to make sure that everything was....well, kosher.

It's called respect.

Whether or not the depiction in erotica of blacks or any other group is racism or just a, to my mind unsavory, kink, I am not sure. But I do think it is founded in othering the subject character, and, to paraphrase Tommy Lee Jones, if that ain't racism, it'll do until racism gets here.

 

[gordo12]

This is about writing. I promise.

I am a senior-citizen, white American. Can we talk about race?

I always say that "I don't notice race." That of course is total bullshit. Everybody notices race. The same way we all notice hair color, if the person is wearing a beard or not, their attitude and style, their clothes, their manner. We notice everything about everyone.

To me, "I don't notice race," means it doesn't factor into my feelings about you as a human being. I like or dislike you for who you are as a human being.

Our best friends are black. My best friend was the lead tenor of a world famous band with multiple Top Ten hits who spent 20 years touring the world. He is black. I am white. We both know it, obviously. Who cares.

I have a very close friend who is the daughter of an icon who actually sat on the lap of Martin Luther King as he wrote the "I've Got A Dream" speech. That is a true story. Who cares. We have been friends for 45 years. And after my wife, is the woman who I am closest to.. No sex, ever. Friends only. Deep loving, supportive friends.

Let's get real. Like every other tweak in the world, race is a kink. Mine is red hair. We can say for this discussion, that is a race. Let's call redheads a race.

There are many others, but I am writing my "Summer Love" story and running across "Big Black Cock," and I find myself bucking against that personally and socially.

I'm an aging jock.. OK, I'm an older than dirt, aging jock, and have spent my life in locker rooms and know that race does not decided penis size.

But is it racist to cowtow to the BBC myth of pornography?

Every ounce of me says it is. Yet, if writing for the entire universe, who knows what will trigger a kink.

Any thoughts? I respect you all so much as writers and thinkers, I'd love to hear you chipped in on this one. It is delicate, but I believe important.

Thanks.

This site isn't about social redemption. It's about sex. If I were writing a Ph.D. paper, then maybe I'd be concerned. But the pervs want their taboo BBC kink. I have no problem writing it.

And, I'm pretty sure it ISN'T the white guys spreading the BBC myth.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Expanding on this question a bit more would be the question of whether the Interracial Love category is inappropriate or not. Should we be fetishizing interracial relationships or is it nothing more than liking redheads, big breasts or tight asses?

I think the category needs to exist as a safe haven for stories involving relationships between people of different ethnicities. Interracial doesn't have to equate to cliched crap.

From my own experience, I can tell you that when I have included scenes of interracial sex in other categories, the 1-bombs started dropping at a much higher than usual rate.

 

[MelissaBaby]

And, I'm pretty sure it ISN'T the white guys spreading the BBC myth.

I'm no so sure about that. There seem to be a lot of men into the cuckolding thing.

And I think that many men like to see or read about girls getting fucked by guys with huge dicks but don't want to feel inferior to the well endowed males, so they feel more comfortable if they can tell themselves, "Well, of course his dick is bigger than mine, he's black."

 

[SimonDoom]

My general view is that people should feel free to have whatever fantasies they want to, and to write about whatever fantasies they want to, but this is an uncomfortable one to talk about.

Overwhelmingly, the most common and popular form of interracial erotica, at least in the USA, involves white women and black men. It's extremely popular in porn, in written erotica, and on fetish sites like Fetlife. Thousands, maybe millions of white women fantasize about having sex with black men, often with big cocks. White husbands fantasize about being cuckolded by black men. Black men fantasize about being "black bulls" with and dominating white women and taking them away from their white men.

Is it racist? I think that's complicated. There's no question it plays on stereotypes -- usually a stereotype that the black man is stronger, more dominant, and more masculine than the white man, and of course, has a bigger dick. From what I have seen of this fantasy as it's commonly played out, in stories, porn, and online profiles, the black man usually is NOT portrayed as inferior, but often is nevertheless to some degree or another treated in stereotypical ways.

It seems to me that one ought to be free to write stories about this fantasy, because people in the real world do in fact have this fantasy. The question is how to handle it.

I've been working for a while on an interracial story of this kind, still in its early stages, and I find it tricky. It's about a white woman and black man who work in an office together. She considers herself to be sophisticated and liberal-minded. She nevertheless has a fetishistic attraction to her colleague because of his blackness, and she fantasizes about him, although he in no way conforms to any of the stereotypes. He is every bit as urbane and polished and sophisticated as she is. The trick of the story is in getting them together and in indulging the fantasy while, from my point of view as narrator, not lapsing into troubling cliches. It's tricky, but I'm going to give it a try.

 

[rackofdawn]

BBC and racism

I think that the topic of BBC in porn promotes racial stereotypes. Also, it promotes the myth that all women want giant cocks pounding them. Furthermore, when a white woman enjoying a BBC is seen as taboo then that too promotes a very sick social concept. Why should race be any factor in sex or in what is "taboo."

I have no particular desire to have sex with a black guy nor would I have any problem having sex with a black guy. But it would not be because of his color or his cock size. Those are very base defining factors and society would be a lot better off if those factors were not constantly the focus.

Remember, stirring up racial hate has been a political trick for thousands of years. Hitler used it to gain power and in varying degrees many have done that over the years. Take away this trick from the hand of these sick political swamp pigs. Love people for who they are and ignore all this race based thinking.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Is it racist? I think that's complicated. There's no question it plays on stereotypes -- usually a stereotype that the black man is stronger, more dominant, and more masculine than the white man, and of course, has a bigger dick. From what I have seen of this fantasy as it's commonly played out, in stories, porn, and online profiles, the black man usually is NOT portrayed as inferior, but often is nevertheless to some degree or another treated in stereotypical ways.

As I alluded in my reply to Gordo, I think may be that the fantasy only works if the reader/viewer can comfort himself in a belief that while the black man may be his superior in sexual matters, while he, the white man, is superior in every other way.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I have no particular desire to have sex with a black guy nor would I have any problem having sex with a black guy. But it would not be because of his color or his cock size.

I fell in love with mine mostly because he's such a good cook.

 

[gordo12]

I'm no so sure about that. There seem to be a lot of men into the cuckolding thing.

And I think that many men like to see or read about girls getting fucked by guys with huge dicks but don't want to feel inferior to the well endowed males, so they feel more comfortable if they can tell themselves, "Well, of course his dick is bigger than mine, he's black."

I think it's vocal because we talk about it so much here. Out in real life, there is only one guy I ever suspected of having that desire. I called him a cuck to his face at a party but he denied it. (He had a surly attitude and I was pissed at him)

Myself, I think it's the curiosity factor. My wife and her X had a black friend and she has admitted to being curious. So a data pool of one!

So I go with curiosity and increasing social acceptance for interracial relationships.

Edit: And I should point out I have absolutely no problem with that.

 

[SimonDoom]

I fell in love with mine mostly because he's such a good cook.

I'm convinced food is an outstanding basis for a good relationship. I love cooking for others, and I love it when others cook for me. If he's good at cooking, and he likes cooking for you, you're halfway to a successful relationship right there.

Not to mention the food porn possibilities.

 

[gordo12]

LOL, went and asked wifey about her curiosity about black guys. The first words out of her mouth...

"Well, you know that 'when you go black you never go back.' So yes, it makes me curious."

Somebody is winning the advertising war!

 

[MelissaBaby]

I'm convinced food is an outstanding basis for a good relationship. I love cooking for others, and I love it when others cook for me. If he's good at cooking, and he likes cooking for you, you're halfway to a successful relationship right there.

Not to mention the food porn possibilities.

If I catch him fucking another woman, I might take him back. But if he makes her breakfast in bed, he is out on his ass.

 

[TadOverdon]

If I catch him fucking another woman, I might take him back. But if he makes her breakfast in bed, he is out on his ass.

If they're really set on improving the site, literotica needs to get busy on that "Like" button.

 

[MillieDynamite]

First, this race, thing, is a sensitive issue. For me, as a black woman raised by white parents, originally as foster parents then as adoptive parents, I’m acutely aware of race and racism. Generally, race is only an issue in the cuckold stories I write, these types of narratives as requested by a fan. As a fan request, I write it the way they want.

I can’t tell you if the person is racist, simply feels inferior to black people, or harbors beliefs that every stereotype is accurate. I make bulls, whether white or black aggressive, as bulls are supposed to be bold. Most of the husbands are modeled after the person making the request description of themselves. It is, after all, their fantasy.

In the real world, blacks’ and whites’ cocks fall into the same range of sizes. The BBC and the BWC, as do the TWC TBC (Tiny, insert color here, Cock), appear in the exact percentages. But in the writing world, it seems that BBC’s the only big cocks that exist. Is that racist?

In other stories, where race is used or designated, it isn’t about race per se. It’s just about people and their differences. Some blacks are criminals, preachers who are negros, plenty of black people use drugs, and blacks and whites have the same strengths and weaknesses. As do all races and groups. In other words, we are not so different as some people tend to believe.

I’m writing a story inspired by something from my father’s past. It’s interracial. It takes place at a time when interracial wasn’t well excepted. It doesn’t cover the issues that they faced in great detail but does hit on them. It isn’t dripping with sex at this point.

My personal view on the taboo and appeal of interracial is all about the differences. As stated above, the contrast between light and dark has lovely contrast. Which, of course, is also the taboo of it all for those that want a taboo.

In my opinion, race is an issue for those who chose to make it an issue.

What do you guys and gals, transgenders, he’s she’s, its, them’s, they’s, and all the others think?

 

[8letters]

I'm convinced food is an outstanding basis for a good relationship. I love cooking for others, and I love it when others cook for me. If he's good at cooking, and he likes cooking for you, you're halfway to a successful relationship right there.

I mention cooking a lot in my stories. It's a challenge a new couple faces right away several times a day - how are we going to feed ourselves? If they can't solve that challenge satisfactorily, then their relationship doesn't stand a chance.