Can We Talk About Race?

[CyranoJ]

But is it racist to cowtow to the BBC myth of pornography?

Strictly speaking: yeah, kinda. The BBC myth is a kink that explicitly exploits racist fear of contamination by the reproducing Other, and derives its attraction from the sense of "interracial" relationships as taboo. It's a guilty pleasure for Black people sometimes, too, but the more so the more one is aware that these kinds of stereotypes actually motivate a lot of real-life racist violence and murder.

(There are other variants of "interracial" too, of course: especially exoticized Asian women, Latina women -- "border patrol" porn vids are their own subgenre at this point -- or the weird and conflicted Western kink for hijabi Muslim women that seems to have become a thing post-9/11 and that Mia Khalifa made a whole porn career out of working. The undercurrent of conflictedness and violence accompanying the stereotypes is always there whatever the specifics might be: Khalifa's career, while lucrative, was also short because she was at the focus of such a whirlwind of racist hate and vitriol that she finally had to bail. A lot of that, I suspect, came from her own "fans": exploiting the Other, resenting the Other and hating the Other all go hand in hand.)

That said, there are lots of kinks with roots in dark impulses. "Interracial" as a category is no different in this regard from Incest or NC/R. I've written "interracial" work, and there's a lot that can be done in approaching it to subvert or parody or just straight-up acknowledge the underlying background of racism in the kink. It's even perfectly possible to make the characters themselves aware of it and to play with those dynamics as part of the story.

All of this doesn't necessarily make it a guilt-free indulgence -- and let's be real, we'll know when racism is truly on the run when "interracial romance" is more common than "interracial porn," and particularly when nobody thinks to call either of them "interracial" -- but it does make the prospect of putting that kind of fiction into circulation more agreeable. Every writer has to make their own determinations about that.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I don't think racism will ever be GONE! I don't know when there will be a time when a man is a man and not a black man. I think it was Morgan Freeman who said I consider myself a man who happens to be black, not a black man. There is a difference.

Perhaps it is prejudice that will never disappear. There will always be misogynist, misandrist, homophobics, people who hate a particular group based on religion, lack of religion, and host of other things.

Hopefully, things will get better as time goes by. I think things are better now than when my dad was my age in the 80's, better then that when his father was my age in the 20's, and so on backward in time. If things aren't getting better, then they are going the other way.

Everything changes, my father has always said, "The only constant in the universe is change."

I know, for a segment of the population, things can't change fast enough. Even so, not all change is beneficial. Change for the sake of change only makes new and unforeseen problems.

 

[KeithD]

Big black cock and black bulls feature a lot in my stories as they did in my active life. Gay life and stories do give attention to cock size--unapologetically. None of my black sex partners complained about having big cocks (and most of them were above the average) and size and ethnicity are turn-ons in the gay world, so I unapologetically use them to enhance arousal in my stories. It has nothing to do with either politics or race relations in this context. Those who want to make that connection should just read elsewhere.

And I advise that for readers who object to race being used in any other context too. Read something else. Mind your own business. If the story violates universal norms, it won't get many readers. There are a lot of contexts I wouldn't/won't read here, with the answer for me is to go on to something else and ignore them. In any case, it's none of your business as long as what you like to write/read is tolerated by the Web site.

 

[lovecraft68]

The big problem I see today is people think racism is only a thing when its a case of someone hating or fearing someone for being a different race.

But pandering and tokenism is also racism and its all I see and hear on the news, in Hollywood, here, and anywhere else the preachy "I'm not racist" crowd gathers to score woke points.

Malcolm X warned beware the white liberal, adding there are good and bad white men and you'll knows which they are very quickly, but the white liberal shakes your hand while holding the chains behind his back.

That's the true racism going on today, using a cause the way an evangelist preaches to his base, with no sincerity, no desire to fix anything, and all about using hate as a vehicle to hate but their hate is okay, of course.

And what happens when the insincere preachy hate filled self righteous beat a cause into the ground? People tune out...what happens when the ambulance chasers scream racism when there is none? Claim an entire country(that had a two term black president, current black VP) is racist? People tune out.

I saw the title of this thread and my first reaction was an eyeroll because I'm sick of hearing about it. I don't need to be told who is racist or what is racist. If you don't know by now, no one is going to change that.

Look at the metoo movement, legit cause ruined by preachy POS's like Meryl Streep screeching things have to change and all the ape culture...and oh, look, there she is on tape giving Polanski a standing O

Weinstein became the poster boy for metoo...yet Tarantino who admitted to knowing everything he was doing and not caring and letting it happen? Oh, they all love his movies, his rape enabling? That's cool.

Metoo believe survivors until the survivor is accusing a politician on your side of coin, or the football player on your fav team...

Listen to black voices! Until that black voice calls out BLM bullshit and woke white frauds and has the audacity to say not everyone is a racist, well that guy must be an uncle Tom., right?

Hypocrisy ruins a cause, better than ruins a cause, preachy 100% beating a dead horse ruins a cause.

Everyone is the same...yet the people who say that can't refer to a person without their color, gender or sexual identity...so I guess you don't see them the same? Also everyone needs to be 'educated" yet if someone says something 'bigoted" because they don't understand, does someone explain it to them? Nope, just name calling and hatred. Saw that happen to a long time member here on a thread a few months ago...no effort to have a 'conversation" just raw hatred from the "tolerant."

The pendulum effect is already swinging the other way as more and more people get fed up with racism-and everything else-being radicalized and politicized-and the end result? Nothing will be fixed, no one will learn and things most likely will get worse.

That is the truth, whether anyone here wants to admit that or not.

 

[LAHomedog]

From my own experience, I can tell you that when I have included scenes of interracial sex in other categories, the 1-bombs started dropping at a much higher than usual rate.

In your experience does that also include a group sex story? I'm writing about an RV rally on the beach that becomes a group sex evening. The thing about being in an RV is you never know who you will be camping next to and with. So hi-jinks ensue.

Do you think the 1-bombs will drop in group sex also?

 

[LAHomedog]

If I catch him fucking another woman, I might take him back. But if he makes her breakfast in bed, he is out on his ass.

Well, I am the cook too. My wife doesn't cook at all. When we met the only thing in her fridge was a can of cat food and a can of Coke. I make dinner nearly every night. I love to cook. I find it relaxing and therapeutic.

When I was working in a very high stress profession, I'd come home and make dinner. It was quiet, alone, and creative.

I have been monogamous for 38 years. I'm not sure what would have happened if either of us cheated, but most certainly my attorney wife would have taken everything and cleaned my clock if I had cheated and then cooked for the other woman

 

[FD_23]

"As I alluded in my reply to Gordo, I think may be that the fantasy only works if the reader/viewer can comfort himself in a belief that while the black man may be his superior in sexual matters, while he, the white man, is superior in every other way."

I don't think the BBC idea HAS to be racist, it is just a fantasy held by a lot of people. When the lazy stereotypes about black people in general start entering the equation, the it's different. I do not agree with the comment that people are ok with BBC and black men being better in bed, because white people believe they are better in everything else, that is just lazy stereotyping. Of course some people are like this, but it is unfair to generalise.

As others have said, people have kinks, things that turn them on, it doesn't mean they are racist, unless they actually treat people that way in real life.

I haven't looked it up, but I believe there have been many studies that found black people generally had the largest penis size, followed by white people, indians then east asian. How accurate these studies are, I don't know, but they can lead credence to the idea. Of course this does not mean every black guy has a huge cock, that is not what i'm saying, just this maybe why the idea exists.

 

[MelissaBaby]

In your experience does that also include a group sex story? I'm writing about an RV rally on the beach that becomes a group sex evening. The thing about being in an RV is you never know who you will be camping next to and with. So hi-jinks ensue.

Do you think the 1-bombs will drop in group sex also?

I've not written anything like that, so I can't say. I expect there are some people who will 1-bomb interracial content in any context.

 

[MelissaBaby]

"As I alluded in my reply to Gordo, I think may be that the fantasy only works if the reader/viewer can comfort himself in a belief that while the black man may be his superior in sexual matters, while he, the white man, is superior in every other way."

I don't think the BBC idea HAS to be racist, it is just a fantasy held by a lot of people. When the lazy stereotypes about black people in general start entering the equation, the it's different. I do not agree with the comment that people are ok with BBC and black men being better in bed, because white people believe they are better in everything else, that is just lazy stereotyping. Of course some people are like this, but it is unfair to generalise.

As others have said, people have kinks, things that turn them on, it doesn't mean they are racist, unless they actually treat people that way in real life.

I haven't looked it up, but I believe there have been many studies that found black people generally had the largest penis size, followed by white people, indians then east asian. How accurate these studies are, I don't know, but they can lead credence to the idea. Of course this does not mean every black guy has a huge cock, that is not what i'm saying, just this maybe why the idea exists.

The BBC "idea" is a lazy stereotype: that black men are sexually superior. That is not a compliment. It is regarding them as if they are livestock.

I did not generalize about all white people. I was specifically talking about those who believe and spread that stereotype.

 

[Bramblethorn]

In my opinion, race is an issue for those who chose to make it an issue.

...and for anybody else around them.

I had a Saudi Arabian colleague who happened to be in the USA on business at the time of 9/11. There were revenge attacks happening and it was obviously unsafe for a young Arabic man with a Saudi passport to be travelling alone in the USA, so we modified schedules to have him travelling with a white co-worker. None of us wanted his race to be an issue, but us saying "I don't see colour" would not have made him safe from those who do.

 

[FD_23]

The BBC "idea" is a lazy stereotype: that black men are sexually superior. That is not a compliment. It is regarding them as if they are livestock.

I did not generalize about all white people. I was specifically talking about those who believe and spread that stereotype.

Ok, we agree on that, and yes, the BBC idea is a lazy stereotype that should not be perpetuated, but take away colour, and you find lazy stereotypes in abundance in porn, and also in day to day life. Does colour make one more important than another? I'm not trying to defend it, but we all stereotype in our day to day life, maybe thats a bad thing, but it will never go away. All i'm saying is that this is a fictional kink that some people enjoy, such as blondes are dumb and up for anything ( i'm blonde by the way) or ginger people are odd ( i have 2 brother and my mum who are redheads).

 

[MillieDynamite]

...and for anybody else around them.

I had a Saudi Arabian colleague who happened to be in the USA on business at the time of 9/11. There were revenge attacks happening and it was obviously unsafe for a young Arabic man with a Saudi passport to be travelling alone in the USA, so we modified schedules to have him travelling with a white co-worker. None of us wanted his race to be an issue, but us saying "I don't see colour" would not have made him safe from those who do.

Of course, when people act on their prejudices there are issues. I wasn't talking about specifics in the real world, I was talking about on here as writers. But anytime a person acts on anger or hatred there are real world consequences. I wasn't addressing violence in society, and was speaking about things being better than were in the past. More specifically to black and white relations.

In point of fact, your friend had the double whammy of race and perceived religious affiliation. There were, and still are, over the top reactions to Arabs, Muslims, and now because of Orange Man, Asians have to worry about physical abuse because of the suspected origins of COVID 19.

People of the Jewish faith have been attacked this year in greater numbers in NYC. This shit doesn't go away, it lessens over time.

For the record, we never don't see color, we can chose to not judge a person based on color. Or we can be small minded and emptied souled and decide that it is the most important thing.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Ok, we agree on that, and yes, the BBC idea is a lazy stereotype that should not be perpetuated, but take away colour, and you find lazy stereotypes in abundance in porn, and also in day to day life. Does colour make one more important than another? I'm not trying to defend it, but we all stereotype in our day to day life, maybe thats a bad thing, but it will never go away. All i'm saying is that this is a fictional kink that some people enjoy, such as blondes are dumb and up for anything ( i'm blonde by the way) or ginger people are odd ( i have 2 brother and my mum who are redheads).

We have limited control over what happens in real life, but we have total control in the worlds we create with our writing.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The BBC "idea" is a lazy stereotype: that black men are sexually superior. That is not a compliment. It is regarding them as if they are livestock.

And "sexually superior" in a very specific way.

If the stereotype was that black guys are great at foot rubs, cunnilingus, treating women with respect and cooking romantic dinners, it'd be quite different, but that's not how it goes. The stereotype is about a guy who has power over women because his primal, sexually aggressive nature brings out the beast in them. There's more than a whiff of degradation fantasy: Mrs. Lilywhite was a respectable housewife until a Big Black Cock awakened her primal urges, and now she can never go back to the respectable life she had.

Contrasts are fascinating. Probably all of my stories involve contrasts between the lovers I write about. But when the contrast is "civilisation vs. The Beast", and the people cast as The Beast are from the same racial group who historically have been treated like livestock and treated as a threat to the purity of White womanhood... yeah.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I haven't looked it up, but I believe there have been many studies that found black people generally had the largest penis size, followed by white people, indians then east asian. How accurate these studies are, I don't know, but they can lead credence to the idea. Of course this does not mean every black guy has a huge cock, that is not what i'm saying, just this maybe why the idea exists.

It's called pseudo science and isn't true research. It is the same type of study that concluded that Afro Americans excelled in sports because more elastic muscles back in the 1950s. these mutations enabled black men to run faster and jump higher than white men. Bullshit is bullshit and that study was bullshit, just as one attributing any constant deviations in the norm to any specific group is bullshit. Always in the studies the whites make up for their physical inadequacies with superior mental abilities. It just isn't real.

If some blacks are better at sports than some whites, it is because they worked on the sport harder and longer than whites. It is a way out of where they are.

Consider Tom Brady, why is he so successful so long. Simple, his life is football first, he spends more time and energy on football than his relationship with his wife or children.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Ok, we agree on that, and yes, the BBC idea is a lazy stereotype that should not be perpetuated, but take away colour, and you find lazy stereotypes in abundance in porn, and also in day to day life. Does colour make one more important than another? I'm not trying to defend it, but we all stereotype in our day to day life, maybe thats a bad thing, but it will never go away. All i'm saying is that this is a fictional kink that some people enjoy, such as blondes are dumb and up for anything ( i'm blonde by the way) or ginger people are odd ( i have 2 brother and my mum who are redheads).

I'm a redhead. We get typecast as hot-headed, sometimes as sexually adventurous. ("How do you know when a redhead's done having sex? She unties you.") I could point to a number of authors who have a weird thing going on about redheads; I'm kinda used to it in fiction, but I wasn't expecting the time I found it in a textbook! It's not something I particularly appreciate, and I suspect the "hot-headed" part has connections to historical stereotypes about Irish people.

But it's not at all the same as BBC stereotyping.

Nobody is writing stories where people are irrevocably corrupted by the power of ginger pubes. Nobody is using AND THEN SHE HAD A REDHEADED BABY as the shock twist ending. We might be good fucks but we're not "you will never hold your head up in decent society again" material. We're marriage material, in a way that BBCs aren't, and if we ever get associated with animals it's an animal symbolic of cleverness and mischief, not one symbolic of brute strength and impregnation.

 

[FD_23]

It's called pseudo science and isn't true research. It is the same type of study that concluded that Afro Americans excelled in sports because more elastic muscles back in the 1950s. these mutations enabled black men to run faster and jump higher than white men. Bullshit is bullshit and that study was bullshit, just as one attributing any constant deviations in the norm to any specific group is bullshit. Always in the studies the whites make up for their physical inadequacies with superior mental abilities. It just isn't real.

If some blacks are better at sports than some whites, it is because they worked on the sport harder and longer than whites. It is way out of where they are.

Consider Tom Brady, why is he so successful so long. Simple, his life is football first, he spends more time and energy on football than his relationship with his wife or children.

whilst I am not disagreeing with you, there are differences in the body when it comes to race, at least for prevelance to disease. I believe there are skinny 'fat' indians, where they have a genetic predisposition for fatty liver and diabetes even if they are skinny. I think also i saw something about, maybe Ghanaians,or ethiopians being better long distance runners due to a long history of walking****nning in their culture thoughout time. PLEASE don't hold me to any of this, it is just things I vaguely remember seeing and have not had time to do my research.

Whilst you may be right about those studies, I don't find the idea of different races having different features wildly crazy, such as tall norwegians, or some australian aboriginies to have bright blonde hair when most people from such climates do not have this. Again, I need to read up on these things.

 

[TadOverdon]

Nobody is writing stories where people are irrevocably corrupted by the power of ginger pubes.

Not even Harry Potter fanfic?

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'm a redhead. We get typecast as hot-headed, sometimes as sexually adventurous. ("How do you know when a redhead's done having sex? She unties you.") I could point to a number of authors who have a weird thing going on about redheads; I'm kinda used to it in fiction, but I wasn't expecting the time I found it in a textbook! It's not something I particularly appreciate, and I suspect the "hot-headed" part has connections to historical stereotypes about Irish people.

But it's not at all the same as BBC stereotyping.

Nobody is writing stories where people are irrevocably corrupted by the power of ginger pubes. Nobody is using AND THEN SHE HAD A REDHEADED BABY as the shock twist ending. We might be good fucks but we're not "you will never hold your head up in decent society again" material. We're marriage material, in a way that BBCs aren't, and if we ever get associated with animals it's an animal symbolic of cleverness and mischief, not one symbolic of brute strength and impregnation.

In point of fact, if the fake science and bullshit irrational fears of BBC in society were correct, it wouldn't mean that the black man was less evolved than the white man. But the other way around.

The following is from an article title Penis size: An evolutionary perspective.

"Today, the average erect gorilla penis is 3cm (1.25 inches) long, the average chimp or bonobo penis comes in at around 8cm and the average human penis stands at around 13cm." So by those standards, whites are closer to apes than blacks.

Not saying this to you, but to others siting studies. Just saying, be careful of the studies when real science is there, it usually shows bullshit as bullshit.

 

[FD_23]

Size and race
The belief that penis size varies according to race is not supported by scientific evidence.[6][30] A 2005 study reported that "there is no scientific background to support the alleged 'oversized' penis in black people".[31]

 

[8letters]

When it comes to race, my rule is "How is what I'm saying different than what a white supremacist would say?" If you write a BBC story, I think you have to ask yourself, "How would someone who hates black people write this story differently?" If you can't think of any changes, then you shouldn't publish the story (and spend some time in front of a mirror).

 

[FD_23]

I'm a redhead. We get typecast as hot-headed, sometimes as sexually adventurous. ("How do you know when a redhead's done having sex? She unties you.") I could point to a number of authors who have a weird thing going on about redheads; I'm kinda used to it in fiction, but I wasn't expecting the time I found it in a textbook! It's not something I particularly appreciate, and I suspect the "hot-headed" part has connections to historical stereotypes about Irish people.

But it's not at all the same as BBC stereotyping.

Nobody is writing stories where people are irrevocably corrupted by the power of ginger pubes. Nobody is using AND THEN SHE HAD A REDHEADED BABY as the shock twist ending. We might be good fucks but we're not "you will never hold your head up in decent society again" material. We're marriage material, in a way that BBCs aren't, and if we ever get associated with animals it's an animal symbolic of cleverness and mischief, not one symbolic of brute strength and impregnation.

I know there is a difference, but I am not talking about porn only. We all have biases that we justify in life, tht is not to say I am defending this stereotype/

 

[MillieDynamite]

American blacks are prone to health issues.

Norwegian isn't a race, neither is Arian, the average height would have many things as an aggregate which affect it. Like French men being shorter after Napoleon's reign because all the tall ones were in the front of the battle lines. That issue has now past into history, but pre WWII was a basic thing. In general the French were shorter than the rest of Europe.

As humans we have norms, and we have outliers.

 

[CyranoJ]

Like French men being shorter after Napoleon's reign because all the tall ones were in the front of the battle lines. That issue has now past into history, but pre WWII was a basic thing.

Wait... wow, really? This is not something I've heard before.

 

[FD_23]

When it comes to race, my rule is "How is what I'm saying different than what a white supremacist would say?" If you write a BBC story, I think you have to ask yourself, "How would someone who hates black people write this story differently?" If you can't think of any changes, then you shouldn't publish the story (and spend some time in front of a mirror).

To be fair, I would never write such anyway, Ignorance should be pointed out and corrected, but it is not always malice. White people, though dominant in media and society do not have a monopoly on racism.

I also do not have anything against black people, i have 2 black cousins and 2 ex girlfriends, I know that doesnt prove anything, but sometimes people (nobody in particular here before anyone starts) can jump to conclusions about people meaning when it was not meant that way. Education is the key.