Code of Conduct ?

[iwatchus]

I'm not saying that I think the rule encourages rape, of course

I don't think this is obviously true at all. And there is some fairly solid evidence to the contrary. I have no interest in rekindling an argument from months ago, but I think authors who refuse to accept some responsibility for what they write are either amoral or have their heads in the sand to a negligent degree.

I will walk away from this thread now and I apologize for disrupting your fantasy view of the world.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Specifically saying "unless they get enjoyment from it" just comes across as icky.

The concept that any woman (or man for that matter) could derive pleasure from being raped is factually inaccurate and morally bankrupt (and I don’t mean autonomic reactions, it’s BS to claim that equates to pleasure). I wish the site was more honest. If they are OK with hosting rape porn, then just do it, without the fig leaf.

Promoting the wholly erroneous idea that soemone might enjoy being raped is nauseating.

 

[SimonDoom]

I get the idea behind it and I'm not saying that I think the rule encourages rape, of course. Just that I feel it could be worded differently. I'm not entirely certain HOW I feel it should be worded. I just comes across to me as "there can't be any rape, unless the character dressed slutty in which case she was asking for it." Specifically saying "unless they get enjoyment from it" just comes across as icky.

It's disturbing. But it's a fact that rape/nonconsent fantasies are very powerful, and people want to read stories about them. People derive erotic pleasure from fantasizing about being the victim of nonconsent.

This is why "consensual nonconsent" is not a substitute, at least for many. Many don't want to read about consensual nonconsent -- that's just BDSM. They want to read about characters experiencing real nonconsent but getting sexual pleasure from it. This is a different sort of fantasy from that of the reader that gets pleasure from reading about a character who is experiencing pain. That's real sadism.

 

[cw5523729]

I don't think this is obviously true at all. And there is some fairly solid evidence to the contrary. I have no interest in rekindling an argument from months ago, but I think authors who refuse to accept some responsibility for what they write are either amoral or have their heads in the sand to a negligent degree.

I will walk away from this thread now and I apologize for disrupting your fantasy view of the world.

I wasn't debating the idea of whether there should be NC at all. I was merely addressing the wording in the TOS.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I wasn't debating the idea of whether there should be NC at all. I was merely addressing the wording in the TOS.

Me too. I think making the person being raped somehow enjoy it is in many ways worse than writing realistically and showing the lives destroyed by sexual assault.

If people want to write and read rape porn, their prerogative. If they want to discuss honing their rape porn craft, go for it. But I wish their convos could be hermetically sealed off from those who don’t share the kink.

 

[cw5523729]

The concept that any woman (or man for that matter) could derive pleasure from being raped is factually inaccurate and morally bankrupt (and I don’t mean autonomic reactions, it’s BS to claim that equates to pleasure). I wish the site was more honest. If they are OK with hosting rape porn, then just do it, without the fig leaf.

Thank you, that's my issue exactly. Either you are allowing sexual assault or you aren't - specifically adding wording to the TOS saying that it's kosher as long as she gets off is bothersome at the very least.

Promoting the wholly erroneous idea that soemone might enjoy being raped is nauseating.

I feel I should give them the benefit of the doubt that it's nothing more than a very poor choice of wording. The fact that they don't want to eroticize rape seems to imply that they take issue with it.

 

[cw5523729]

Me too. I think making the person being raped somehow enjoy it is in many ways worse than writing realistically and showing the lives destroyed by sexual assault.

Well said

 

[cw5523729]

It's disturbing. But it's a fact that rape/nonconsent fantasies are very powerful, and people want to read stories about them. People derive erotic pleasure from fantasizing about being the victim of nonconsent.

This is why "consensual nonconsent" is not a substitute, at least for many. Many don't want to read about consensual nonconsent -- that's just BDSM. They want to read about characters experiencing real nonconsent but getting sexual pleasure from it. This is a different sort of fantasy from that of the reader that gets pleasure from reading about a character who is experiencing pain. That's real sadism.

See my other comments - I was neither condoning NC stories nor advocating for their ban. I'm firmly in the "if someone wants to write it/read it, then so be it" category - so long as they are correctly categorized and tagged, of course.

 

[cw5523729]

Me too. I think making the person being raped somehow enjoy it is in many ways worse than writing realistically and showing the lives destroyed by sexual assault.

Full disclosure - my own story currently being posted (the last 3 parts all got the green light today! woohoo!) does contain 1 part (out of 129 chapters) with a scene involving sexual assault. It's not erotic, not glorified. And the character involved sure AF does not "enjoy" it because not only do I find that disturbing, but more practically it would undermine the plot point.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't read nonconsent stories much, but I don't think most of them are about "rape" in the usual sense.

For instance, blackmail stories. The old one about the student who finds out is teacher used to be a porn model, and blackmails her into doing sexual things. She's humiliated but ends up enjoying the control and humiliation.

Or another example, a woman who gets kidnapped and becomes the slave of a rich powerful man, but ends up enjoying her enslavement.

I just scanned the list of the 10 most popular reluctance/nonconsent stories at Lit of all time. They pretty much fit the description I gave above--fantasy situations, enslavement, alien kidnapping, bimboification, blackmail, borderline "consensual nonconsent," and borderline BDSM activity. In these stories a victim is shown to be subject to some form of nonconsensual sex, and they typically enjoy it. But they're a far cry from what we think of as "rape" in the real world.

It would be silly to suppose that a story about a woman being kidnapped by aliens and subjected to sexual tests against her will, and then enjoying them, is going to have a harmful impact on society. Anything is possible, but it seems unlikely.

 

[SimonDoom]

Full disclosure - my own story currently being posted (the last 3 parts all got the green light today! woohoo!) does contain 1 part (out of 129 chapters) with a scene involving sexual assault. It's not erotic, not glorified. And the character involved sure AF does not "enjoy" it because not only do I find that disturbing, but more practically it would undermine the plot point.

For purposes of passing muster at Literotica, it depends on what you mean by "scene involving sexual assault." If you have a scene in which you narrate a rape in detail in a story at an erotic story site, then while you may not view it as an erotic depiction, some may derive erotic pleasure from reading it, and that's what the site is trying to avoid.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Full disclosure - my own story currently being posted (the last 3 parts all got the green light today! woohoo!) does contain 1 part (out of 129 chapters) with a scene involving sexual assault. It's not erotic, not glorified. And the character involved sure AF does not "enjoy" it because not only do I find that disturbing, but more practically it would undermine the plot point.

Rape has been part of literature since we started writing stuff down. I have rapes in my work.

Murder has been parts of literature since we started writing stuff down. I have murders in my work.

But murder specifically written to arouse (snuff) is banned here. Rape specifically written to arouse is allowed, as long as the woman or man being raped ‘enjoys it eventually.’

To be consistent, we should allow snuff, so long as the person being killed ‘enjoys it eventually.’

The problem is that some people can accept the canard that a person might eventually enjoy being raped, but not that they might eventually enjoy being murdered. I don’t see the difference.

People should be allowed to write what they want, I don’t have to read rape porn. But convos on the subject keep coming up here. Maybe there should be a dedicated forum for it, which just rape afficianadoes can read .

 

[cw5523729]

For purposes of passing muster at Literotica, it depends on what you mean by "scene involving sexual assault." If you have a scene in which you narrate a rape in detail in a story at an erotic story site, then while you may not view it as an erotic depiction, some may derive erotic pleasure from reading it, and that's what the site is trying to avoid.

The chapter did get approved, about a month ago now, but frankly I don't know if it's because an actual human read and decided it was ok, or because they DIDN'T read it and I just passed whatever automated checks they throw at it.

 

[SimonDoom]

The chapter did get approved, about a month ago now, but frankly I don't know if it's because an actual human read and decided it was ok, or because they DIDN'T read it and I just passed whatever automated checks they throw at it.

There you go. You speak from more experience than I. I have not published a nonconsent story yet. I'm in the early stages of a fantasy harem story, but it's a long way from being done.

 

[cw5523729]

To be consistent, we should allow snuff, so long as the person being killed ‘enjoys it eventually.’

I was inclined to ask how you'd verify the character enjoyed it but then I remembered there's that whole Erotic Horror category, so I guess with a seance being involved, it would be easy to write in.

Do any of the episodes of Casper the Friendly Ghost address his feelings about dying? If anyone enjoyed it, I feel like it would have been him.

 

[cw5523729]

There you go. You speak from more experience than I. I have not published a nonconsent story yet. I'm in the early stages of a fantasy harem story, but it's a long way from being done.

Also to be clear, the story is categorized under BDSM, not NC. Out of 169k words, only a couple thousand are devoted to the 2 chapters with that scene.

 

[Bamagan]

Types of readers attracted to NC/R and MC stories (not intended as an exhaustive list):

1. People who fantasize about being so desirable that the other party (or parties) are willing to do illegal or immoral things in order to be with them; the characters they identify with may or may not enjoy individual acts so much as the 'inverse power' of compelling coercive or even violent behavior in others.
2. People (submissives, mostly) who fetishize loss of control or agency over their actions, such as (a) from a dominant partner assuming total responsibility or (b) from some kind of situation (chemicals or supernatural means) that lowers or removes their inhibitions; in both cases, the fantasy provides a rationale for absolution of any guilt for indulging in passions that they would like to experience but feel social or moral pressure to abstain from.
3. People who fetishize having sexual authority over others, especially in the context of relationships that would be highly improbable or immoral in 'real life', such as unpopular-over-popular, subordinate-over-boss, or various types of incest; they are willing to overlook illegal and immoral means to an end in the context of the story, if not in reality, but they essentially want a 'happy' ending for all parties.
4. People who fetishize using violence, coercion, or other similar means to compel sexual favors from others, or to cause the humiliation of others for their own gratification. They probably enjoy fantasies of revenge, some of which may be prompted by a perception (or misperception) of being victimized or ridiculed in real life, with the 'payoff' for them being reversal of that situation and a sense of 'justice served' from their perspective.

I ordered those roughly in terms of how 'problematic' the readers probably seem to people who consider themselves well-adjusted. I think folks in bucket 4 probably do cause some angst around here, since the internet in general seems to embolden people to mouth off at each other a bit more than face-to-face. Bucket three is, arguably, where the site is trying to define the 'soft limit' for what they allow in NC/R. Since the MC category is by nature unrealistic, stories there can often get away with sliding closer to what bucket 4 is hoping to find.

 

[SimonDoom]

Also to be clear, the story is categorized under BDSM, not NC. Out of 169k words, only a couple thousand are devoted to the 2 chapters with that scene.

That also diminishes the problem the site is trying to avoid, because unlikely that that reading "element" will go looking for the stories in that category.

 

[SimonDoom]

Types of readers attracted to NC/R and MC stories (not intended as an exhaustive list):

1. People who fantasize about being so desirable that the other party (or parties) are willing to do illegal or immoral things in order to be with them; the characters they identify with may or may not enjoy individual acts so much as the 'inverse power' of compelling coercive or even violent behavior in others.
2. People (submissives, mostly) who fetishize loss of control or agency over their actions, such as (a) from a dominant partner assuming total responsibility or (b) from some kind of situation (chemicals or supernatural means) that lowers or removes their inhibitions; in both case, the fantasy provides a rationale for absolution of any guilt for indulging in passions that they would like to experience but feel social or moral pressure to abstain from.
3. People who fetishize having sexual authority over others, especially in the context of relationships that would be highly improbable or immoral in 'real life', such as unpopular-over-popular, subordinate-over-boss, or various types of incest; they are willing to overlook illegal and immoral means to an end in the context of the story, if not in reality, but they essentially are looking for a 'happy' ending for all parties.
4. People who fetishize using violence, coercion, or other similar means to compel sexual favors from others, or to cause the humiliation of others for their own gratification. They probably enjoy fantasies of revenge, some of which may be prompted by a perception (or misperception) of being victimized or ridiculed in real life, with the 'payoff' for them being reversal of that situation and a sense of 'justice served' from their perspective.

I ordered those roughly in terms of how 'problematic' the readers probably seem to people who consider themselves well-adjusted. I think folks in bucket 4 probably do cause some angst around here, since the internet in general seems to embolden people to mouth off at each other a bit more than face-to-face. Bucket three is, arguably, where the site is trying to define the 'soft limit' for what they allow in NC/R. Since the MC category is by nature unrealistic, stories there can often get away with sliding closer to what bucket 4 is hoping to find.

I think this is very well stated and described.

And I heartily endorse your enumeration.

 

[cw5523729]

That also diminishes the problem the site is trying to avoid, because unlikely that that reading "element" will go looking for the stories in that category.

Oh great. And just like that, a whole bunch of rape porn authors are reading "yes! loophole!!"

 

[Bamagan]

I think this is very well stated and described.

And I heartily endorse your enumeration.

 

[cw5523729]

It would be silly to suppose that a story about a woman being kidnapped by aliens and subjected to sexual tests against her will, and then enjoying them, is going to have a harmful impact on society. Anything is possible, but it seems unlikely.

That's exactly what the anal-probe aliens want you to think

 

[cw5523729]

View attachment 2575194

I can hear this gif

ah ha ha ha ha ha

 

[EmilyMiller]

Types of readers attracted to NC/R and MC stories (not intended as an exhaustive list):

1. People who fantasize about being so desirable that the other party (or parties) are willing to do illegal or immoral things in order to be with them; the characters they identify with may or may not enjoy individual acts so much as the 'inverse power' of compelling coercive or even violent behavior in others.
2. People (submissives, mostly) who fetishize loss of control or agency over their actions, such as (a) from a dominant partner assuming total responsibility or (b) from some kind of situation (chemicals or supernatural means) that lowers or removes their inhibitions; in both cases, the fantasy provides a rationale for absolution of any guilt for indulging in passions that they would like to experience but feel social or moral pressure to abstain from.
3. People who fetishize having sexual authority over others, especially in the context of relationships that would be highly improbable or immoral in 'real life', such as unpopular-over-popular, subordinate-over-boss, or various types of incest; they are willing to overlook illegal and immoral means to an end in the context of the story, if not in reality, but they essentially want a 'happy' ending for all parties.
4. People who fetishize using violence, coercion, or other similar means to compel sexual favors from others, or to cause the humiliation of others for their own gratification. They probably enjoy fantasies of revenge, some of which may be prompted by a perception (or misperception) of being victimized or ridiculed in real life, with the 'payoff' for them being reversal of that situation and a sense of 'justice served' from their perspective.

I ordered those roughly in terms of how 'problematic' the readers probably seem to people who consider themselves well-adjusted. I think folks in bucket 4 probably do cause some angst around here, since the internet in general seems to embolden people to mouth off at each other a bit more than face-to-face. Bucket three is, arguably, where the site is trying to define the 'soft limit' for what they allow in NC/R. Since the MC category is by nature unrealistic, stories there can often get away with sliding closer to what bucket 4 is hoping to find.

I find 3 problematic, 4 is aberrant.

1 is insecurity being manifest and so ridiculous it’s probably harmless. On 2 I was never that sort of sub (or ever really a sub at all), but I know some think of it that way. Consensually giving up agency (presumably within parameters) is not rape-adjacent (unless the situation is then taken advantage of in ways not agreed).

 

[TheLobster]

Whenever the topic of NC content rules gets brought up, it always eventually circles back to 'but snuff!' non-argument. It's really tiring.

And yes, it is a non-argument, because it appeals to some foolish notion of consistency rather than standing on the side of more freedom for authors. It ultimately advocates for more censorship, but with the added "bonus" of the advocate getting to act as the censor and having their morality imposed upon everyone.