Overly critical feedback from non-authors

[gordo12]

Keith you asked for evidence. I read here for free and showed you I purchased close to 500 books in the last 28 months.

To take a group of over 100k members and declare none of them are buyers is ludicrous. Especially when surveys have shown 72% of the general population reads books. It's not unreasonable to extrapolate. Absence of evidence is not absence of fact!

Edit: you write books to sell to the markeplace. Do you demand they show up and prepay before you'll write something? Give you evidence? Or do you extrapolate that someone will like your work and pay for it?

I stated I valued the feedback of readers over authors. Not because the authors are necessarily wrong, but readers see something else. That's what I want to tap into.

So would I support the OP's idea of only authors critiquing a story. Not a chance.

Edit: nobody said anything about ALL readers. Not sure where you got that?

 

[KeithD]

*Sigh*

 

[gordo12]

*Sigh*

Sighs back!

 

[GroverLang]

The topic of this thread is criticism and reading of stories posted to Literotica.

And I continue to point out that there is no evidence that all readers here are buying any books. They are reading here for free. "Readers are readers and will buy books" just is a non sequitur. If you want to satisfy paying readers you have to make sure the readers you are listening too are actually paying readers. there's no ipso facto connection between Literotica readers and paying readers.

You are correct in saying there is no evidence ALL readers here are buying books. There must be a percentage of Lit readers who never buy books (the ones who are here for self gratification?) but it will never be possible to quantify that percentage.

In the same way ALL readers of stories by “legitimate authors” (that’s tongue in cheek before anyone jumps on me) do not read stories on here. Once again unable to quantify.

I read Lit stories but generally only in two categories and I also buy books. The books I buy are not the same type of stories I read on here. Am I unique? I shouldn’t think so.

It is easier to comment on Lit stories and think the author will take in what I’ve written. A letter to a “legitimate writer” will just end up with their publisher.

 

[KeithD]

Reading here and buying books are not ipso facto connected (which they were in this discussion). This is a free-read site. It's a vast jump of faith to connect that to buying books. I stated my position up the line. The validity of a commenter as a critiquer for guiding a writer here to do anything that they don't see as valid themselves is worthless unless the critiquer has established some track record with the writer of giving good advice. This is essentially a blind-leading-the-blind comment site.

 

[EddieTheBastard]

Critical and overly critical

If I read a story and there's something that I want to communicate to the author that I think may be perceived as negative I use the contact the author option - and word my response VERY carefully. I generally reserve public comments to the positives.

If you get a number of responses that are negative and share a theme (there's a great post on this earlier in the thread - three is a good number then have a serious look.

Even contact from a troglodytic moron may include a grain of truth - or a good idea - or something worthy of consideration. For example - it's worth considering whether your writing is aimed at those with a poor understanding of anatomy or not.

 

[KeithD]

And so what? There's nothing posted at Literotica that says the writers are seeking writing help. This is a share site. Many stories are written by those who just want to share their stories and arousals. There is no inference by the Web site that they are grooming to be polished writers. If they want comment, they can expressly ask for it (and, no, just posting it with comments turned on isn't asking for writing instruction). If they haven't directly asked for it, just mind your own business. If you try to be their teacher (and puff yourself up) and they haven't directly asked for instruction in writing and lash back, you deserved it.

 

[SimonDoom]

You are correct in saying there is no evidence ALL readers here are buying books. There must be a percentage of Lit readers who never buy books (the ones who are here for self gratification?) but it will never be possible to quantify that percentage.

In the same way ALL readers of stories by “legitimate authors” (that’s tongue in cheek before anyone jumps on me) do not read stories on here. Once again unable to quantify.

I read Lit stories but generally only in two categories and I also buy books. The books I buy are not the same type of stories I read on here. Am I unique? I shouldn’t think so.

It is easier to comment on Lit stories and think the author will take in what I’ve written. A letter to a “legitimate writer” will just end up with their publisher.

Judging from some of the stories I've read, I suspect there are some authors on this site who never buy books, either.

The key point is that whether or not someone is an author is completely irrelevant to the validity of their comment. The comment stands or falls on its own merits rather than on the "authority" of the commenter as an author. I've read plenty of stories here that leave me with the opinion that the author is not an expert on any kind of writing. On the flipside, I'm sure there are erudite and attentive readers who choose not to write stories but who have worthwhile things to say.

 

[gunhilltrain]

And so what? There's nothing posted at Literotica that says the writers are seeking writing help. This is a share site. Many stories are written by those who just want to share their stories and arousals. There is no inference by the Web site that they are grooming to be polished writers. If they want comment, they can expressly ask for it (and, no, just posting it with comments turned on isn't asking for writing instruction). If they haven't directly asked for it, just mind your own business. If you try to be their teacher (and puff yourself up) and they haven't directly asked for instruction in writing and lash back, you deserved it.

If I leave the comments option on, and I always do, then I'm open for whatever comes in. In fact I wish I got a few more comments, but in any case it is the "business" of the readers to respond if they wish to do so.

I usually reply (and maybe defend myself too) to most comments I get. On a few occasions I get a bit testy if the comment is in my opinion unfair or unreasonable. But it's part of the reality I accept here. Overall, I'm pleased to have my work accessible to readers and to get (most of the) feedback.

 

[KeithD]

If I leave the comments option on, and I always do, then I'm open for whatever comes in. In fact I wish I got a few more comments, but in any case it is the "business" of the readers to respond if they wish to do so.

I usually reply (and maybe defend myself too) to most comments I get. On a few occasions I get a bit testy if the comment is in my opinion unfair or unreasonable. But it's part of the reality I accept here. Overall, I'm pleased to have my work accessible to readers and to get (most of the) feedback.

The Web site isn't set up for just what YOU want to do. It's set up to accommodate those who just want to share their arousal too and aren't here asking to be shat upon by amateur critics wanting to puff themselves up. And this isn't about what authors want--if you want critique you can jolly well explicitly say so. It's about what you do as a commenter. I know, I know, this is now an "It's all about me" world.

 

[SimonDoom]

The Web site isn't set up for just what YOU want to do. It's set up to accommodate those who just want to share their arousal too and aren't here asking to be shat upon by amateur critics wanting to puff themselves up. And this isn't about what authors want--if you want critique you can jolly well explicitly say so. It's about what you do as a commenter. I know, I know, this is now an "It's all about me" world.

I'd be curious about what the majority of authors and readers think about this. You've stated your position on this issue before, and I understand it, but I don't agree with it, and I've disagreed with you before about it. I think it comes down to, what's a reasonable expectation for an author given the nature of this site and the tools that are available on it?

I think the reasonable expectation is that where a comment function exists people are going to use it, and it doesn't matter whether you, as an author, have signaled that you want comments. Tools exist to be used, and the comment function is a tool. It's reasonable for readers to see that tool and use it and criticize stories. Authors always have the ability to delete comments or to disable comments and votes altogether if they don't like them.

I personally want readers to feel as unrestrained as possible in giving comments. Some of them will be crap, but some of them won't be, and I want a system that maximizes the chance I'll get a comment that might yield something useful to me, even if it means I get more crap as well. More is better, as I see it.

You may disagree, because you are a more experienced author and don't derive much value from most Lit comments, but you are in a distinct and small minority. I think most of us profit by getting more comments rather than fewer.

I suspect most people agree with me, but I don't know for sure.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think it comes down to, what's a reasonable expectation for an author given the nature of this site and the tools that are available on it?

When you say "expectation", do you mean "what people believe will happen" or "what people believe ought to happen"?

I see a lot of arguments that come down to conflating those two different meanings of the word, and I'm not sure which way you're using it here.

 

[KeithD]

You may disagree, because you are a more experienced author and don't derive much value from most Lit comments, but you are in a distinct and small minority. I think most of us profit by getting more comments rather than fewer.

My position on this issue has nothing to do with my own participation at Literotica. Most of the stories I post here have been posted at the end of the line, long after they've had a run in the marketplace. There isn't a damn thing I'm going to do to "improve" them now, and my observation is that 93 percent of those giving critique here are halfbaked at best on how to write and present anyway.

The position I take here on this issue encompasses the guy and girl who just want to share an arousing story, not to learn how to write for the New Yorker (in some yahoo's self-proclaimed opinion in how that should be), and have comments open because they want to connect with like-minded readers (and/or because they don't have the foggiest notion that you can turn them off). The Web site is set up to cater to them, I'm willing to bet they represent a majority of those writing stories here, and I think that puffed-up wannabe "I can tell you how to write; look at me" commenters should just leave them the hell alone. I do not in the least believe that most writers here have comments on to get negative criticism of their writing expertise from some stranger.

They will happily take positive comment from strangers, of course, and in keeping with what you've said about what the Web site enables, it enables story writers to deep six negative comment. That doesn't prevent some "Hey look at me; I write better than you" commenter from peeing in the Cheerios of a writer who just wants to share sex act tales here on this sex act tale story site. But don't try to tell me that authors here love that being done to them. The complaints we see belie that.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I personally want readers to feel as unrestrained as possible in giving comments. Some of them will be crap, but some of them won't be, and I want a system that maximizes the chance I'll get a comment that might yield something useful to me, even if it means I get more crap as well. More is better, as I see it.

As I write competently enough (generally speaking, setting aside a tense shift or three when the smutty bits got too exciting) to avoid the grammar Nazis, 99% of my commentary experience is about the reader's reaction to my content, not my failings as a writer.

Sure, one person found an "it's" when it should have been "its", and three "lead" that should have been "led", but if that's the best they can do after 20,000 or 30,000 words, then I don't quite know why they're on the site at all. I think they pointed them out because they felt they must, and good for them. They're probably a frustrated teacher.

But I'm with Simon on this one - comments are what commentators want them to be, and if a reader can't get to the content because they're wading through grammatical sludge, they're as entitled as the next person to point that out. Whether they're an author or not is irrelevant, because let's face it (and as KeithD tirelessly and endlessly points out), the vast majority of writers aren't the best either. But the whole feedback system seems to work just fine as a great big sludge separator, cycling through acres of garbage, so that when something finally rises to the surface, odds are it's got a bit of a shine to it.

But for those who complain about "harsh" criticism - when I wander off and sample the goods, there's usually a direct relationship between the quality on offer and the comments being made. Put yourself out there in a shabby suit, people gonna point their finger, it's that simple. I don't think any writer here writes as well as they think they do, but some of us at least know how to line the buttons up with the button holes.

 

[KeithD]

(and as KeithD tirelessly and endlessly points out),

Always in response to some arrogant and self-centered so and so who refuses to leave others using the Web site as it allows the hell alone to enjoy the site as they wish. I don't express my view on this any more than you and SimonDoom and most every other regular does. So you can take that jab and stick it where the sun don't shine.

I continue to find this "you are obligated to take my piss in your Cheerios because I have determined you are only here to improve your writing and I'm just the one to teach you on that" attitude appalling.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

My position on this issue has nothing to do with my own participation at Literotica. Most of the stories I post here have been posted at the end of the line, long after they've had a run in the marketplace. There isn't a damn thing I'm going to do to "improve" them now, and my observation is that 93 percent of those giving critique here are halfbacked at best on how to write and present anyway.

The position I take here on this issue encompasses the guy and girl who just want to share an arousing story, not to learn how to write for the New Yorker (in some yahoo's self-proclaimed opinion in how that should be), and have comments open because they want to connect with like-minded readers (and/or because they don't have the foggiest notion that you can turn them off). The Web site is set up to cater to them, I'm willing to bet they represent a majority of those writing stories here, and I think that puffed-up wannabe "I can tell you how to write; look at me" commenters should just leave them the hell alone. I do not in the least believe that most writers here have comments on to get criticism of their stories from some stranger.

Just offering my two cents for another POV because I feel like KeithD described me spot on.

I don’t think I have any particular illusions about the quality of my amateur writing: I’m just a hobbyist with a lot of free time and a story that interests me. I made a lofty presumption that my story might also interest some other people too. Or, at the very least, my husband and some of my friends would get a kick out of reading it. Literotica is one of the easiest places online to self-publish as an amateur erotica writer, and that’s the reason I use it.

But although I want to share my story and am doing so online, I’m not interested in engaging amateur critique. I’m not trying to improve as a writer through unsolicited online assessment. I’ve never read a perfect story in my life, but I already know that mine is not the one; I can get the buttons through the hole but I’m not going up for the Man Booker.

I’m not on KeithD and other published authors’ levels and I don’t pretend to be. And posting my personal thoughts and ideas in story form is already ambitious and vulnerable enough for me personally, without any rough and tumble within the comments section. Some people enjoy that and find it valuable; I don’t. Readers who want to connect with me email or PM, which, for me, has been a good level of activity and more rewarding and personally developmental.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I continue to find this "you are obligated to take my piss in your Cheerios because I have determined you are only here to improve your writing and I'm just the one to teach you on that" attitude appalling.

Agreed.

 

[HeyAll]

The truth is, if society stopped criticizing, think of how many conversations would be eliminated?

Criticizing is part of everyone's thoughts and discussions. Everyone does it. Just look at music, movies, and food. Dissecting and criticizing is fun.

As for Lit, if I get the impression that it's negative, I don't even read it. Why bother? Just delete.

I already know what I've made, and people like it, and that's all that matters. Can't please everyone.

 

[MelissaBaby]

The only reader comments I have ever deleted were spam or contained insulting remarks about other commenters.

 

[Gamina]

i think it is on us as authors to know when critisim is fair and when to just ignore it.

That being said I have posted positive feedback on stories that i would usually not comment on, because i felt the annonymous users were being very unfair. So maybe instead of censoring idiots, we should focus on building each other up

 

[SimonDoom]

When you say "expectation", do you mean "what people believe will happen" or "what people believe ought to happen"?

I see a lot of arguments that come down to conflating those two different meanings of the word, and I'm not sure which way you're using it here.

I mean "is" rather than "ought", because I'm not sure "ought" has any place in the discussion apart from what people actually think and expect. This isn't a matter of right and wrong. It's a matter of people's expectations based on the way the site is set up. If the site were set up so readers were given fair warning that they should give negative comments only when authors manifest a desire to get them, that would be the reasonable way to do things in the "ought" sense. In the absence of any such warning, I'm inclined to think readers should be free to give whatever comments they want without feeling like they're somehow treading on the author's toes.

I don't see this as a "me me" thing the way KeithD does. It cuts both ways. One could equally well say an author has a "me me" attitude if he somehow believes he should be insulated from criticism.

My gut impulse is always to favor more. That's why I oppose any attempt to limit anonymous commenters. It's why I think readers should feel free to leave whatever comments they want. As an author that's what I want. I don't like seeing idiotic, nasty comments any more than anyone else does, but as I see it any attempt to limit comments will end up throwing out the baby with the bath water.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I mean "is" rather than "ought", because I'm not sure "ought" has any place in the discussion apart from what people actually think and expect. This isn't a matter of right and wrong. It's a matter of people's expectations based on the way the site is set up. If the site were set up so readers were given fair warning that they should give negative comments only when authors manifest a desire to get them, that would be the reasonable way to do things in the "ought" sense. In the absence of any such warning, I'm inclined to think readers should be free to give whatever comments they want without feeling like they're somehow treading on the author's toes.

I don't see this as a "me me" thing the way KeithD does. It cuts both ways. One could equally well say an author has a "me me" attitude if he somehow believes he should be insulated from criticism.

My gut impulse is always to favor more. That's why I oppose any attempt to limit anonymous commenters. It's why I think readers should feel free to leave whatever comments they want. As an author that's what I want. I don't like seeing idiotic, nasty comments any more than anyone else does, but as I see it any attempt to limit comments will end up throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I'm in general agreement with you. I really don't care for the moderation of comments. Let the author's tend our own gardens. It's particularly ridiculous that authors have to submit any comments they make on their own work to moderation.

 

[CuteSlaveLisa]

I'm in general agreement with you. I really don't care for the moderation of comments. Let the author's tend our own gardens. It's particularly ridiculous that authors have to submit any comments they make on their own work to moderation.

I agree and as a funny aside. I had a rather nasty comment that I made what I believed to be a witty comeback to addressing Mr. A. N. Onymous by name. It never made it through moderation but the comment I was reacting to was 'disappeared.'

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'm in general agreement with you. I really don't care for the moderation of comments. Let the author's tend our own gardens. It's particularly ridiculous that authors have to submit any comments they make on their own work to moderation.

A simple spam detection system for all, is what the moderation system really is. It's not ideal, but fixed a problem. Besides, if your reply went straight through, it might preceed the comment you're responding to, which could be a bit of a head-scratcher.

Comments are what they are, and if the system changes anytime soon, it'll take about five minutes to get used to. Meanwhile, authors have the site tools available to block, keep, or delete comments; just as the site allows people to comment in the first place. Seems balanced to me.

 

[MelissaBaby]

A simple spam detection system for all, is what the moderation system really is. It's not ideal, but fixed a problem. Besides, if your reply went straight through, it might preceed the comment you're responding to, which could be a bit of a head-scratcher.

Comments are what they are, and if the system changes anytime soon, it'll take about five minutes to get used to. Meanwhile, authors have the site tools available to block, keep, or delete comments; just as the site allows people to comment in the first place. Seems balanced to me.

I's just like to see comments as they come in, not have them posted in batches.