Please grovel, bitch?

[TheRedChamber]

This kind of reminds me of a discussion I had about a story (not mine) a few years ago where the controversy was 'if you do raceplay without explicitly writing the play bit, you're just writing racism'

Can I ask if there is a specific set of stories we're really discussing here and if it's a real problem on Lit or just an occassional horror story. I'm not dismissing concerns, just not sure what the scope here is.

The BDSM category tends to focus on sub PoV far more than dom (research I did a couple of years ago suggestd 80:20). Those stories typically have an inner narrative which explains the subs ( net positive) reactions to whatever is happening to them. Now this may be weak or ridiculous, but its usually there.

It's entirely possible that there are MaleDom stories which end with 'quivering mess' but which I bail on way earlier due to bad writing or arsehole MC issues. And of course NC/R is a whole other category.

For myself, I tend to like writing 'insecure dom' stories, that is to say someone with an inner voice that is amazed at what they are being asked to do, amazed at what they are being allowed to do, and desperately trying to stay in character while working out what the hell their next move. It tends to go hand in hand with the idea that organizing a good session is hard work.

 

[LargoKitt]

This kind of reminds me of a discussion I had about a story (not mine) a few years ago where the controversy was 'if you do raceplay without explicitly writing the play bit, you're just writing racism'

Can I ask if there is a specific set of stories we're really discussing here and if it's a real problem on Lit or just an occassional horror story. I'm not dismissing concerns, just not sure what the scope here is.

The BDSM category tends to focus on sub PoV far more than dom (research I did a couple of years ago suggestd 80:20). Those stories typically have an inner narrative which explains the subs ( net positive) reactions to whatever is happening to them. Now this may be weak or ridiculous, but its usually there.

It's entirely possible that there are MaleDom stories which end with 'quivering mess' but which I bail on way earlier due to bad writing or arsehole MC issues. And of course NC/R is a whole other category.

For myself, I tend to like writing 'insecure dom' stories, that is to say someone with an inner voice that is amazed at what they are being asked to do, amazed at what they are being allowed to do, and desperately trying to stay in character while working out what the hell their next move. It tends to go hand in hand with the idea that organizing a good session is hard work.

Sounds pretty much like 'Fifty Shades'; which one could characterizes as 'Nice woman finds out that nice man has 'dark side' which he 'takes her to' and he 'dominates her' and she 'gets into it' even to the point of 'dominating him' but then she discovers he does it "because he was hurt' and she leads him back to 'being a nice man' although they can still have fun 'taking trips to the dark side.'

 

[TheRedChamber]

Sounds pretty much like 'Fifty Shades'; which one could characterizes as 'Nice woman finds out that nice man has 'dark side' which he 'takes her to' and he 'dominates her' and she 'gets into it' even to the point of 'dominating him' but then she discovers he does it "because he was hurt' and she leads him back to 'being a nice man' although they can still have fun 'taking trips to the dark side.'

Is there a worse insult to a BDSM author than suggesting their work sounds like 50 Shades? Of course, I'm going to insist my work is the 180 degree complete opposite!(it really is.)

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Those talking about kinks. Because they are talking about a scene in which a woman is totally humiliated as a kink.

So ... then you are fine with the kink just not the abuse, yet talking about the kink = abuse, so then you're really not fine with the kink at all.

 

[LargoKitt]

Is there a worse insult to a BDSM author than suggesting their work sounds like 50 Shades? Of course, I'm going to insist my work is the 180 degree complete opposite!(it really is.)

Yuh, but would you really hate having the 50 Shades money and having your better smut made into a movie or three?

 

[OralAllOver]

I've done my best to be open minded since starting my journey here, and not be too judgemental of other's kinks.

But yeah, humiliation has never done it for me. Maybe because I have enough insecurities already without being berated sexually.

Just like my past experiences with physical abuse won't allow me to appreciate physical domination or violence as a sex kink. Not that I'm condemning anyone who write or enjoys these kinks. Far from. it.

And I have talked to some in depth about some of it and I have come to appreciate light BDSM stuff, but nothing too extreme.

How about withering looks of disappointment?

 

[LargoKitt]

So ... then you are fine with the kink just not the abuse, yet talking about the kink = abuse, so then you're really not fine with the kink at all.

If the kink is a game among consenting adults of equal power irl outside the game I have little problem with it; except that I personally really don't like to see women humiliated, or gay men, or straight men for that matter. I understand that that is a thrill or even a 'comfort zone' for some folks. My bias. I don't like it.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

If the kink is a game among consenting adults of equal power irl outside the game I have little problem with it; except that I personally really don't like to see women humiliated, or gay men, or straight men for that matter. I understand that that is a thrill or even a 'comfort zone' for some folks. My bias. I don't like it.

That's fine but you still haven't clarified how the kink is okay when anyone in this thread (your own words) who talks about being into the kink just comes off as abuse to you. So if there are no examples that fit into your narrow acceptance zone, it really sounds like you have no acceptance zone at all. That's fine. Acceptance is not required, but your claims of acceptance look darn flimsy at the moment. You do understand that, right?

 

[LargoKitt]

That's fine but you still haven't clarified how the kink is okay when anyone in this thread (your own words) who talks about being into the kink just comes off as abuse to you. So if there are no examples that fit into your narrow acceptance zone, it really sounds like you have no acceptance zone at all. That's fine. Acceptance is not required, but your claims of acceptance look darn flimsy at the moment. You do understand that, right?

What I said was that people in this forum started talking about what I had described as a kink. I wasn't talking about kinks in the original post. I was talking about what might be call an obsession or a fetish, that some people, I assume mostly men, seem to enjoy seeing other people, primarily women, 'reduced' to a sniveling mess with all their sexual body parts 'ruined.' These scenes aren't depicted as being any fun for the 'victim'.(Yes, victim because the person is deliberately portrayed as a victim) (BTW, I am setting this off from scenes where someone is bound in some way and might have clips or vibes, or riding crops applied. Tough stuff, not my 'fun' but I understand that 'pain as pleasure' thing.) I'm talking about crowing about taking away someone's humanity. This site is judgmental and prohibits sexual stories about children or animal partners, or certain, but not all body excretions. I assume it would reject racism as a fetish, especially if it involved 'destroying' the person largely because they were a particular ethnicity. If I have a fetish that I favor, it is one that is still quite rare in a large part of human society, and that is seeing women having a lot of enthusiastic fun enjoying sex where they are as much in charge as their partners, where their partner is really enabling their happy orgasm. I am personally well-aquainted with women who, understandably in this patriarchal society, sadly (yes, sadly) have 'played the victim' and acheived a kind of freedom in that experience. I am also happy that those I know enjoy more fulfilling sex with equal partners that empower them.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I was talking about what might be call an obsession or a fetish, that some people, I assume mostly men, seem to enjoy seeing other people, primarily women, 'reduced' to a sniveling mess with all their sexual body parts 'ruined.

That's fine. I get that, but it doesn't answer my question. You say that there is a certain acceptability with an abuse kink, yet anyone in this thread who has expressed interest in the kink you have deemed as justifying abuse. I might hesitate to include Erozetta, except that you did say 'all'.

I'm not confusing 'kinks' with abuse, the people on this thread are.

Those talking about kinks. Because they are talking about a scene in which a woman is totally humiliated as a kink.

I certainly hope that you are not tying t o get out of kink shaming by saying that their kink is disqualifiied as a kink.

sadly (yes, sadly) have 'played the victim' and acheived a kind of freedom in that experience

Why would that be sadly if they got something positive out of the experience? Remember, it's their experience, not yours.

it is one that is still quite rare in a large part of human society, and that is seeing women having a lot of enthusiastic fun enjoying sex where they are as much in charge as their partners, where their partner is really enabling their happy orgasm

That's not rare at all. That's the # 1 dynamic in lit stories by a mile.

 

[Erozetta]

If I have a fetish that I favor, it is one that is still quite rare in a large part of human society, and that is seeing women having a lot of enthusiastic fun enjoying sex where they are as much in charge as their partners, where their partner is really enabling their happy orgasm. I am personally well-aquainted with women who, understandably in this patriarchal society, sadly (yes, sadly) have 'played the victim' and acheived a kind of freedom in that experience. I am also happy that those I know enjoy more fulfilling sex with equal partners that empower them.

Please, feel free to tell me exactly how I need to have sex in order for it to be more fulfilling to you. I'd like to be "enthusiastic" about how much fun it is to adhere to someone else's ideals of healthy enjoyable sex instead of my own.

 

[nice90sguy]

Please, feel free to tell me exactly how I need to have sex in order for it to be more fulfilling to you

I assume your PM inbox is now full

 

[OddLove]

What I said was that people in this forum started talking about what I had described as a kink. I wasn't talking about kinks in the original post. I was talking about what might be call an obsession or a fetish, that some people, I assume mostly men, seem to enjoy seeing other people, primarily women, 'reduced' to a sniveling mess with all their sexual body parts 'ruined.' These scenes aren't depicted as being any fun for the 'victim'.(Yes, victim because the person is deliberately portrayed as a victim) (BTW, I am setting this off from scenes where someone is bound in some way and might have clips or vibes, or riding crops applied. Tough stuff, not my 'fun' but I understand that 'pain as pleasure' thing.) I'm talking about crowing about taking away someone's humanity. This site is judgmental and prohibits sexual stories about children or animal partners, or certain, but not all body excretions. I assume it would reject racism as a fetish, especially if it involved 'destroying' the person largely because they were a particular ethnicity. If I have a fetish that I favor, it is one that is still quite rare in a large part of human society, and that is seeing women having a lot of enthusiastic fun enjoying sex where they are as much in charge as their partners, where their partner is really enabling their happy orgasm. I am personally well-aquainted with women who, understandably in this patriarchal society, sadly (yes, sadly) have 'played the victim' and acheived a kind of freedom in that experience. I am also happy that those I know enjoy more fulfilling sex with equal partners that empower them.

To the first point I bolded there, I think that is where the clear boundary is between abuse-kink (consenting people all enjoying it together) and real abusive(there's a real victim it's being done too). Because kink is literally all about consent. Just because one person is turned on by emotionally and/or physically abusing and destroying another, doesn't make their abusive behaviors 'kink'. But lots of abusive people have tried to hide their abuse in 'kink' so they can call anyone out for 'kink shaming' them. That's nothing new, unfortunately. And it's always something responsible kink enjoyers will have to take strong stances against in order to separate themselves from real abusers.

To the second point I bolded there. There are obviously people who might not have any secret subconscious racism behind their fantasy. They might just fantasize about seeing black men plow white women because they think it's sexy. There is also race-play, which is extremely controversial. But again, it all comes back to, is it just kink? (consenting people all enjoying it together)? or flat out abusive? (there's a real victim being harmed) And in erotica, I think it's pretty obvious whether the story is portraying real racist or misogynistic fueled abuse.

My main issue with rapey/abusive/hate-fueled erotica stories isn't that I find them disgusting and want them poofed away. I would need solid data based evidence showing that enjoying those kinds of stories leads to real life abused. Kind of like I'm still waiting on evidence that Marylin Manson music corrupts the youth, or violent video games leads to real word violence.

My actual issue with the rapey/abusive/hate-fueled erotica stories that contain non-consensual abuse and unwilling victims who don't want or enjoy the abuse is this... it's clearly stated in the content guidelines as not okay. So I wish that rule was either enforced better, especially in the Loving Wives category, or they just ditched the rule completely and started funneling all abuse/victim stories to Relunctant/Non-Consent so people who don't want to run into rapey/abusive/hate-fueled content don't have to stumble onto it by mistake. That would improve experiences for the majority of readers who don't like that type of controversial content.

 

[WriterSableFox]

Some people may view a kink, turn-on, fetish, or such in a negative light because it isn't one of theirs and may see it as repugnant and thus kink-shame those individuals. Just because some people don't derive pleasure from a certain activity doesn't mean those who enjoy it are wrong or doing harm. So long as the play is safe, sane, and consensual for all involved, there's nothing wrong with it. I will not pass judgment on those who receive pleasure from something I don't enjoy.

As for writing a story that includes controversial themes and kinks, no one forces anyone to read a story with those elements on Lit. As long as the story complies with the site rules, I think it should be posted and available to readers. As well, just because a story has certain kinks, themes, or acts that might be questionable in real life doesn't necessarily mean someone will act on them. It's not like most writers on here create stories with subtle, dog-whistle-triggering phrases that might encourage an individual to carry out in real life what they read here.

We're not responsible for what someone does after they read our stories. We don't write them to create instruction manuals for acting them out in real life. They're fiction, perhaps based on personal experiences in some aspects, but still fiction. We write erotic scenes to give enjoyment and pleasure to our readers with a wide range of kinks. There's room for all kinds of kinks here.

 

[LargoKitt]

Some people may view a kink, turn-on, fetish, or such in a negative light because it isn't one of theirs and may see it as repugnant and thus kink-shame those individuals. Just because some people don't derive pleasure from a certain activity doesn't mean those who enjoy it are wrong or doing harm. So long as the play is safe, sane, and consensual for all involved, there's nothing wrong with it. I will not pass judgment on those who receive pleasure from something I don't enjoy.

As for writing a story that includes controversial themes and kinks, no one forces anyone to read a story with those elements on Lit. As long as the story complies with the site rules, I think it should be posted and available to readers. As well, just because a story has certain kinks, themes, or acts that might be questionable in real life doesn't necessarily mean someone will act on them. It's not like most writers on here create stories with subtle, dog-whistle-triggering phrases that might encourage an individual to carry out in real life what they read here.

We're not responsible for what someone does after they read our stories. We don't write them to create instruction manuals for acting them out in real life. They're fiction, perhaps based on personal experiences in some aspects, but still fiction. We write erotic scenes to give enjoyment and pleasure to our readers with a wide range of kinks. There's room for all kinds of kinks here.

"I didn't rob the bank but I was driving the car that the robbers came in. In the car I told them what a cool idea robbing the bank was. I recounted a couple of stories about other robberies. Somebody else picked them up after the robbery, if there was a robbery. That was fun, exciting." Endorsement, fuel, 'normalizing'.

 

[crookedletter]

We get it, you're judging people. What's the upshot supposed to be here? Everyone else should judge people too? No thanks.

 

[LargoKitt]

Please, feel free to tell me exactly how I need to have sex in order for it to be more fulfilling to you. I'd like to be "enthusiastic" about how much fun it is to adhere to someone else's ideals of healthy enjoyable sex instead of my own.

Should I say, "Always wear a black burqa so you won't unduly tempt poor vulnerable men. When your legally designated, male partner decides he wants sex you will be available day or night, on your back, only in the missionary position. And please don't make too much noise or gross him out with any hint of your desire. Oh, and if he wants to beat you because you raised an eyebrow wrong, that's his legal right. Oh, and he and his brothers have a legal right to kill you if another man touches and 'spoils' you." That's the scenario for millions of women. But hey, if that's their 'kink' they should go for it. But yeah, as a woman who has full freedom to choose your own flavor of pleasure you want to 'play' with any aspect of that scenario, it's your druthers.

 

[LargoKitt]

We get it, you're judging people. What's the upshot supposed to be here? Everyone else should judge people too? No thanks.

You're judging me for saying that certain human behavior grosses me out. Emphasis on the word 'behavior'.

 

[crookedletter]

You're judging me for saying that certain human behavior grosses me out. Emphasis on the word 'behavior'.

Well, call it even then. You find certain sexual interests gross, I think loudly moralizing about what other people are into is a little rude. Judge and judge alike, I guess.

 

[LargoKitt]

That's fine. I get that, but it doesn't answer my question. You say that there is a certain acceptability with an abuse kink, yet anyone in this thread who has expressed interest in the kink you have deemed as justifying abuse. I might hesitate to include Erozetta, except that you did say 'all'.





I certainly hope that you are not tying t o get out of kink shaming by saying that their kink is disqualifiied as a kink.



Why would that be sadly if they got something positive out of the experience? Remember, it's their experience, not yours.



That's not rare at all. That's the # 1 dynamic in lit stories by a mile.

I see a difference between a kink and a fetish. When I looked it up a 'kink' is described as a consenting game people play that brings them (sexual) pleasure. A fetish is something a person (feels they) must do in order to become fully aroused. Kink: "Honey, let's play that thing where I spank you and call you a dirty slut and you kind of say 'no, no, I'm a virgin. You'll get me pregnant.But I take you anyway" Fetish: "I can't get off unless she's an untouched virgin, screaming as I cram my dick down her throat until she gags, rip open her virgin asshole and then break her hymen with my shit covered cock and breed her like that again and again until she swells up with my little bastard." Here's where you say, "It's just a story. (Or a very real video where the 'actress' 'seems to be' getting abused because her body is all messed up at the end of it. But of course she's being paid to do it, right? And it's okay because she's a whore.)

 

[pink_silk_glove]

We get it, you're judging people. What's the upshot supposed to be here? Everyone else should judge people too? No thanks.

I gave all benefit of doubt, really and truly hoping that this wasn't the case but I think that it's quite obvious now that you are correct.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I see a difference between a kink and a fetish. When I looked it up a 'kink' is described as a consenting game people play that brings them (sexual) pleasure. A fetish is something a person (feels they) must do in order to become fully aroused. Kink: "Honey, let's play that thing where I spank you and call you a dirty slut and you kind of say 'no, no, I'm a virgin. You'll get me pregnant.But I take you anyway" Fetish: "I can't get off unless she's an untouched virgin, screaming as I cram my dick down her throat until she gags, rip open her virgin asshole and then break her hymen with my shit covered cock and breed her like that again and again until she swells up with my little bastard." Here's where you say, "It's just a story. (Or a very real video where the 'actress' 'seems to be' getting abused because her body is all messed up at the end of it. But of course she's being paid to do it, right? And it's okay because she's a whore.)

Yes. It's just a story.

Judge all that you like but you're not going to make any friends. That's okay. Damn us all. You are better than us.

 

[lovecraft68]

Is there a worse insult to a BDSM author than suggesting their work sounds like 50 Shades? Of course, I'm going to insist my work is the 180 degree complete opposite!(it really is.)

No, there really isn't. That book and the hack who wrote it are a disgrace to anyone involved in that lifestyle.

People like to use the word misinformation often these days, that abomination is the definition of that term.

 

[lovecraft68]

I see a difference between a kink and a fetish. When I looked it up a 'kink' is described as a consenting game people play that brings them (sexual) pleasure. A fetish is something a person (feels they) must do in order to become fully aroused. Kink: "Honey, let's play that thing where I spank you and call you a dirty slut and you kind of say 'no, no, I'm a virgin. You'll get me pregnant.But I take you anyway" Fetish: "I can't get off unless she's an untouched virgin, screaming as I cram my dick down her throat until she gags, rip open her virgin asshole and then break her hymen with my shit covered cock and breed her like that again and again until she swells up with my little bastard." Here's where you say, "It's just a story. (Or a very real video where the 'actress' 'seems to be' getting abused because her body is all messed up at the end of it. But of course she's being paid to do it, right? And it's okay because she's a whore.)

Grow up, what you described is not a fetish it's a crime.

You don't get it, and that's not a problem, but you're getting pushier-and less credible-as you go.

There's a lot of good discussion on this topic here and from some people who have some firsthand knowledge and skin in this game. You on the other hand are talking out of your ass at this point and you're insulting something you have no comprehension of or tolerance for

For someone against something you see as abuse, you're the one getting angrier and more irrational. Us mean abusive people are pretty calm here.

Things that make you go hmmm.

 

[LargoKitt]

Well, call it even then. You find certain sexual interests gross, I think loudly moralizing about what other people are into is a little rude. Judge and judge alike, I guess.

Exactly. It's a fucking forum, after all. And a fucking forum. As an author I wanted to get some feedback. I'm still a bit shy of one element though. Folks are pretty strong about saying that stories about abusing women are a turn on for some folks. Now in doing research for a story if I had said; "I was reading a story about a guy who has a foot fetish. It

Grow up, what you described is not a fetish it's a crime.

You don't get it, and that's not a problem, but you're getting pushier-and less credible-as you go.

There's a lot of good discussion on this topic here and from some people who have some firsthand knowledge and skin in this game. You on the other hand are talking out of your ass at this point and you're insulting something you have no comprehension of or tolerance for

For someone against something you see as abuse, you're the one getting angrier and more irrational. Us mean abusive people are pretty calm here.

Things that make you go hmmm.

What is that 'something'?