Please grovel, bitch?

[anthrodisiac]

Exactly. It's a fucking forum, after all. And a fucking forum. As an author I wanted to get some feedback. I'm still a bit shy of one element though. Folks are pretty strong about saying that stories about abusing women are a turn on for some folks. Now in doing research for a story if I had said; "I was reading a story about a guy who has a foot fetish. It

What feedback do you want? Genuine question. Is it "why do people like this?" or do you have an actual question about writing your story? You're missing an element, what is it?

 

[LargoKitt]

No, there really isn't. That book and the hack who wrote it are a disgrace to anyone involved in that lifestyle.

People like to use the word misinformation often these days, that abomination is the definition of that term.

Ah, that series struck me as a 'romance set in a red room'; thus its popularity because romance is arguably the most popular publishing genre and making it 'trangressive' is a nice lure. But does it have any real obligation to 'present the true BDSM lifestyle'? A more intriguing question might be: "If it attracts people to the BDSM lifestyle with its 'gauzy' depictions and they find something else, is that a bad thing?

 

[LargoKitt]

What feedback do you want? Genuine question. Is it "why do people like this?" or do you have an actual question about writing your story? You're missing an element, what is it?

Exactly. It's a fucking forum, after all. And a fucking forum. As an author I wanted to get some feedback. I'm still a bit lacking one element though. Folks are pretty strong about saying that stories about abusing women are a turn on for some folks. Now in roaming Literotica I am browsing different categories I might happen on foot fetish stories. A good story for me would be more than something that had someone getting off on feet, it would explore what it was about feet that turned him (or her) on. It might show the first time that happened. And I'd get an idea of what it was about feet that were so sexy. So I got some useful feedback for character development from some female writers about how being powerless and to a degree, humiliated can be a turnon. Not so much from the male side, although I can see some scenarios. So, yeah, this has been useful.

 

[LargoKitt]

Grow up, what you described is not a fetish it's a crime.

You don't get it, and that's not a problem, but you're getting pushier-and less credible-as you go.

There's a lot of good discussion on this topic here and from some people who have some firsthand knowledge and skin in this game. You on the other hand are talking out of your ass at this point and you're insulting something you have no comprehension of or tolerance for

For someone against something you see as abuse, you're the one getting angrier and more irrational. Us mean abusive people are pretty calm here.

Things that make you go hmmm.

"Some people like snuff flix. Others like seeing kids. Who am I to judge? Lit took down all my artwork (and everyone else's) even though it is mild compared to my writing and pablum compared to many others. But...gone. Oh, and thank you for recognizing that what I have seen depicted in certain videos and a few stories is a crime. Guess a lot of us like crime 'fiction', especially these days if it's very realistic.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

"Some people like snuff flix. Others like seeing kids. Who am I to judge? Lit took down all my artwork (and everyone else's) even though it is mild compared to my writing and pablum compared to many others. But...gone. Oh, and thank you for recognizing that what I have seen depicted in certain videos and a few stories is a crime. Guess a lot of us like crime 'fiction', especially these days if it's very realistic.

That's fine. Judge all you want. Just don't pretend that you're not kink-shaming. You can't claim to separate the kink from the fetish (as you put it) and then judge anyone depicting their kink fantasy as abusive and say that you're not kink shaming. Just come out and say it, "Your abuse kink is wrong."

 

[anthrodisiac]

Exactly. It's a fucking forum, after all. And a fucking forum. As an author I wanted to get some feedback. I'm still a bit lacking one element though. Folks are pretty strong about saying that stories about abusing women are a turn on for some folks. Now in roaming Literotica I am browsing different categories I might happen on foot fetish stories. A good story for me would be more than something that had someone getting off on feet, it would explore what it was about feet that turned him (or her) on. It might show the first time that happened. And I'd get an idea of what it was about feet that were so sexy. So I got some useful feedback for character development from some female writers about how being powerless and to a degree, humiliated can be a turnon. Not so much from the male side, although I can see some scenarios. So, yeah, this has been useful.

So basically you want to write a kink story exploring the reasons behind why this person developed a particular kink, part psychological dissection piece, part erotica.

There are so many avenues for people to arrive at their kink, so it really gives you a lot of freedom to explore the ones you find most meaningful and befitting of your narrative and characters. What does the kink say about them, and making sure to write it in a way that doesn't shame someone for having this kink, showing the battle between conscious control and subconscious desire. A lot of the time these things aren't something you can just turn on/off, and some people struggle with shame around theirs and conflicted feelings. The key is not to demonize someone for something beyond their control, and I'd recommend against going into a super-dark kink so as to avoid potentially moralizing and casting aspersions on large groups of people. People's kinks are highly tailored to them, so even if people like the "same thing" there are plenty of differences that make them unique. Focus on that, and on the journey, and, most importantly, on the human aspect.

 

[LargoKitt]

Yes. It's just a story.

Judge all that you like but you're not going to make any friends. That's okay. Damn us all. You are better than us.

You do see that I am not trashing kinks or fetishes out of hand. The majority of scenarios that turn people on don't bother my sensibilities. Most of the story topics and tags on this site don't disturb me. But because I am related to people who have been hurt sexually for someone else's 'pleasure', and they have had to recover from it, I am less objective. I do recognize that saying one sexual proclivity is okay and another is 'out of bounds' is a slippery slope that scares people with less than conventional sexual tastes. Hats off to all of us. To some evangelical Christians this whole site is an abomination and we are all going straight to hell. But if we are being tolerant, don't we have to respect their 'kink' too?

 

[LargoKitt]

So basically you want to write a kink story exploring the reasons behind why this person developed a particular kink, part psychological dissection piece, part erotica.

There are so many avenues for people to arrive at their kink, so it really gives you a lot of freedom to explore the ones you find most meaningful and befitting of your narrative and characters. What does the kink say about them, and making sure to write it in a way that doesn't shame someone for having this kink, showing the battle between conscious control and subconscious desire. A lot of the time these things aren't something you can just turn on/off, and some people struggle with shame around theirs and conflicted feelings. The key is not to demonize someone for something beyond their control, and I'd recommend against going into a super-dark kink so as to avoid potentially moralizing and casting aspersions on large groups of people. People's kinks are highly tailored to them, so even if people like the "same thing" there are plenty of differences that make them unique. Focus on that, and on the journey, and, most importantly, on the human aspect.

These are really good tips. There is a 'difficult bind' and that is if the fetish hurt someone and the protagonist needs to deal with that. If the 'background rule' on Literotica is that the sexual activity is harmless because we are all different, etc. then we should always steer away from a 'mommy sitting on my lap' story that might explore how I or mommy felt bad about doing that. That seems to be an editorial 'rule' that says, "Don't be an idiot and depict a kink or a fetish in a bad light. The idea here is to turn on the people who like that. Why would you piss on their playground? I guess my caveat is that then I'm not writing literotica, I'm just trotting out a different scenario of the same old smut.

 

[LargoKitt]

We get it, you're judging people. What's the upshot supposed to be here? Everyone else should judge people too? No thanks.

You're not judging people? So people who abhor your favorite kink are okay as long as they never say, 'eeew' in front of you.

 

[LargoKitt]

That's fine. Judge all you want. Just don't pretend that you're not kink-shaming. You can't claim to separate the kink from the fetish (as you put it) and then judge anyone depicting their kink fantasy as abusive and say that you're not kink shaming. Just come out and say it, "Your abuse kink is wrong."

Wait a second. I'm sorry but you just can't say, "Love one kink, love them all." 'Kinks' aren't a thing. Each kink is a thing. And again, I'm not talking about sex games that consenting adults play. All those are fine. I would add one caveat and that is to always ask: "Will I or my partner be permanently physically or psychologically scarred by doing this?" If it's 'just a story' or 'just a video', probably not. Does that spoil the fun?

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Wait a second. I'm sorry but you just can't say, "Love one kink, love them all." 'Kinks' aren't a thing. Each kink is a thing. And again, I'm not talking about sex games that consenting adults play. All those are fine. I would add one caveat and that is to always ask: "Will I or my partner be permanently physically or psychologically scarred by doing this?" If it's 'just a story' or 'just a video', probably not. Does that spoil the fun?

I didn't say that. No one said that. No one has claimed that you kink shame all kinks. The claim is that you are shaming the kink of sexualized abuse in any form.

You are against any sort of sexualized abuse. By now you have made this abundantly clear, and you are perfectly entitled to do so. You claim that it is okay as a kink but not a fetish. So in this thread, several people have explained their kink that may involve something abusive (mentally or physically) and in every case you have dismissed them as abusive fetishes. Even Erozetta who went to great detail to explain her kink and why she has it. Now if you can't accept her kink as a kink and dismiss it (you did label her a victim of abuse, don't claim that you didn't) then there really isn't anything remotely acceptable to you in the realm of sexualized abuse. Therefore you define all forms of sexualized abuse as a fetish, not as a kink. Therefore by technicality, you conveniently (attempt to) dodge the label of kink-shamer on the basis that abuse kink doesn't exist. Since nothing falls within your definition, then it just can't exist.

The problem that you face is that it doesn't work that way. It is not up to you to define what is a kink and what is a fetish or what is anything else. Sure, you can define it for yourself but not for others. There is no way out of this for you. If you are looking down at people who have an abuse kink, you are kink shaming. And that's okay, you are allowed to do so, just don't fool yourself over it with your convenient definitions of what is and isn't a kink, and don't be surprised when (not if) you get backlash from the people that you are shaming. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt for several posts, but you just keep hammering away conveniently defining anything that you don;t accept as simply not a kink, so clearly at this point you are kink-shaming while trying to dodge the ugly label of kink shamer. Well, sorry to say, you can't have it both ways.

Hey, I have no stake in this. I do not have an abuse kink. I'm a neutral observer here and I can plainly see what's going on.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Ah, that series struck me as a 'romance set in a red room'; thus its popularity because romance is arguably the most popular publishing genre and making it 'trangressive' is a nice lure. But does it have any real obligation to 'present the true BDSM lifestyle'? A more intriguing question might be: "If it attracts people to the BDSM lifestyle with its 'gauzy' depictions and they find something else, is that a bad thing?

The 'obligations' that art has is a deep philosophical question. 50 Shades gives Christian Grey about a million red flags for abusive relationship behaviour and choosing the right and a caring dom(me) is the most important thing a sub can do. I think most women who read it would be able to seperate the 'hot arsehole' fantasy from what they'd actually want from a real-life partner. Still, when journalists went to actual BDSM practioners to ask if it was a reasonable depiction, they got the answer 'hell no'

For myself, I find it more interesting to write about a couple in a loving relationship exploring kinks together, and negotiating realistic tensions that arise.

 

[LargoKitt]

I didn't say that. No one said that. No one has claimed that you kink shame all kinks. The claim is that you are shaming the kink of sexualized abuse in any form.

You are against any sort of sexualized abuse. By now you have made this abundantly clear, and you are perfectly entitled to do so. You claim that it is okay as a kink but not a fetish. So in this thread, several people have explained their kink that may involve something abusive (mentally or physically) and in every case you have dismissed them as abusive fetishes. Even Erozetta who went to great detail to explain her kink and why she has it. Now if you can't accept her kink as a kink and dismiss it (you did label her a victim of abuse, don't claim that you didn't) then there really isn't anything remotely acceptable to you in the realm of sexualized abuse. Therefore you define all forms of sexualized abuse as a fetish, not as a kink. Therefore by technicality, you conveniently (attempt to) dodge the label of kink-shamer on the basis that abuse kink doesn't exist. Since nothing falls within your definition, then it just can't exist.

The problem that you face is that it doesn't work that way. It is not up to you to define what is a kink and what is a fetish or what is anything else. Sure, you can define it for yourself but not for others. There is no way out of this for you. If you are looking down at people who have an abuse kink, you are kink shaming. And that's okay, you are allowed to do so, just don't fool yourself over it with your convenient definitions of what is and isn't a kink, and don't be surprised when (not if) you get backlash from the people that you are shaming. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt for several posts, but you just keep hammering away conveniently defining anything that you don;t accept as simply not a kink, so clearly at this point you are kink-shaming while trying to dodge the ugly label of kink shamer. Well, sorry to say, you can't have it both ways.

Hey, I have no stake in this. I do not have an abuse kink. I'm a neutral observer here and I can plainly see what's going on.

If you don't have an abuse kink (fetish) why are you a more neutral observer than me? I have said in several ways that , personally, that fetish really bothers me. Okay, that's me. I think people should have their kinks. Some fetishes seem to hurt people who may not want to be hurt. Guess we'll have to ask them.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Some fetishes seem to hurt people who may not want to be hurt. Guess we'll have to ask them.

Those people aren't reading abuse stories that they're not into. Well, except the BtBers, haha! : P

 

[lovecraft68]

An explanation on why 50 Shades is problematic to many people and more so than the extreme games being discussed here.

What's mostly been discussed involves consent between two adults who know how to play the game and have trust and established rules and this often starts slowly, you don't go 0-60 on day one (generally) we've also discussed fantasy videos dealing with CNC and stories as well.

What they all have in common is consent and mutual satisfaction between the top and bottom.

Fifty Shades involved an extremely naive inexperienced virgin (sigh, this woman was mid forties when she wrote this and wrote like a tween) who caught the attention of a pure predator. She refused his advances and he proceeded to track her on her phone, follow her and stalk her, before ultimately taking her to his

Red room of pain...OH FFS.

And pretty much putting it to her. This is abuse pure and simple, abuse of power, of age, of experience, of privilege. The twat also blamed his awful behavior on being abused which to her gave him the right to be an abuser.

Nothing about this followed the rules and sure as hell was not some type of romance which morons touted it as. This book was a stalkers handbook designed to tell women creeps are hot.

So, there is a difference for those educated enough-or that care enough-to see it.

 

[SimonDoom]

An explanation on why 50 Shades is problematic to many people and more so than the extreme games being discussed here.

What's mostly been discussed involves consent between two adults who know how to play the game and have trust and established rules and this often starts slowly, you don't go 0-60 on day one (generally) we've also discussed fantasy videos dealing with CNC and stories as well.

What they all have in common is consent and mutual satisfaction between the top and bottom.

Fifty Shades involved an extremely naive inexperienced virgin (sigh, this woman was mid forties when she wrote this and wrote like a tween) who caught the attention of a pure predator. She refused his advances and he proceeded to track her on her phone, follow her and stalk her, before ultimately taking her to his

Red room of pain...OH FFS.

And pretty much putting it to her. This is abuse pure and simple, abuse of power, of age, of experience, of privilege. The twat also blamed his awful behavior on being abused which to her gave him the right to be an abuser.

Nothing about this followed the rules and sure as hell was not some type of romance which morons touted it as. This book was a stalkers handbook designed to tell women creeps are hot.

So, there is a difference for those educated enough-or that care enough-to see it.

"Rules?"

A BDSM story has no obligation whatsoever to observe the so-called "rules" of the field as established by experienced BDSM practitioners. Its purpose is to entertain readers who like the subject. My guess is that the vast majority of those readers have never actually participated in BDSM to a significant degree and don't know about, or care about, its rules. They just want to be entertained.

One of the problems with categories, long term, is that people get too wrapped up in whether this belongs in box A or box B. Readers don't really care. They just want to be entertained, and that's the point of the whole thing. Obviously, many were entertained by 50 Shades. It was written by someone who obviously wasn't an expert, but so what?

I suppose one could complain that it might lead people into hurtful practices. Maybe. That's the risk that transgressive or violent art takes. Are people more likely to engage in irresponsible sword play after watching Game of Thrones? Maybe.

There are many criticisms to make of that book, but I don't think this is one of the stronger ones. The book is pure, ridiculous fantasy.

 

[lovecraft68]

"Rules?"

A BDSM story has no obligation whatsoever to observe the so-called "rules" of the field as established by experienced BDSM practitioners. Its purpose is to entertain readers who like the subject. My guess is that the vast majority of those readers have never actually participated in BDSM to a significant degree and don't know about, or care about, its rules. They just want to be entertained.

One of the problems with categories, long term, is that people get too wrapped up in whether this belongs in box A or box B. Readers don't really care. They just want to be entertained, and that's the point of the whole thing. Obviously, many were entertained by 50 Shades. It was written by someone who obviously wasn't an expert, but so what?

I suppose one could complain that it might lead people into hurtful practices. Maybe. That's the risk that transgressive or violent art takes. Are people more likely to engage in irresponsible sword play after watching Game of Thrones? Maybe.

There are many criticisms to make of that book, but I don't think this is one of the stronger ones. The book is pure, ridiculous fantasy.

Forty years in this lifestyle for me, none for you, but you know how it is. Sounds about right for you.

Thank you though, I feel like I now know what it feels like to be mansplained too.

Your willful ignorance on a topic you refuse to admit you have no understanding of has been duly noted and filed under look at the source.

 

[SimonDoom]

Forty years in this lifestyle for me, none for you, but you know how it is. Sounds about right for you.

Thank you though, I feel like I now know what it feels like to be mansplained too.

Your willful ignorance on a topic you refuse to admit you have no understanding of has been duly noted and filed under look at the source.

I don't claim to know the field. I don't. And your superior knowledge about it means nothing at all. This is erotic fantasy, and nobody is required to follow your rules about what that fantasy means to them. This is a point you never seem to understand, although you claim you don't kink-shame. Fantasy is not reality, and the characters in fantasy stories need not abide by the rules people require in reality. What matters is if people like it. Obviously, in the case of 50 Shades, many did. That matters far more than your experience.

 

[LargoKitt]

Those people aren't reading abuse stories that they're not into. Well, except the BtBers, haha! : P

Bing!

 

[Britva415]

nobody is required to follow your rules about what that fantasy means to them

That wasn't what the rules described were about. The point was just that the story doesn't represent real-life BDSM practices.

I think you're both on the same page about that: One of you says "it doesn't," the other says "it doesn't have to."

It doesn't have to, but, that does make it a problematic story. Real-life BDSM practices do generally have rules, which are there to keep people safe.

Fantasy is allowed to break rules, or have no rules. Nobody is saying rules are about what fantasy you can have, much less what it has to mean.

 

[LargoKitt]

I just woke up to the fact that I have been gaslighted here. Yes, it is gaslighting. I basically started out saying that I didn't understand the idea of hurting women as a turnon. In general, hurting and humilating women is a Bad Thing. Lots of useful talk about why people might choose pain as a turnon. But I have no reason to back off or apologize for suggesting that women being hurt and humilated for someone else's sexual pleasure sincerely bothers me.

 

[LargoKitt]

The 'obligations' that art has is a deep philosophical question. 50 Shades gives Christian Grey about a million red flags for abusive relationship behaviour and choosing the right and a caring dom(me) is the most important thing a sub can do. I think most women who read it would be able to seperate the 'hot arsehole' fantasy from what they'd actually want from a real-life partner. Still, when journalists went to actual BDSM practioners to ask if it was a reasonable depiction, they got the answer 'hell no'

For myself, I find it more interesting to write about a couple in a loving relationship exploring kinks together, and negotiating realistic tensions that arise.

Dunno if you read the whole series. I only read the first book and skipped the movies. The one I remember is the female protagonist going all "poor little whippy boy, maybe with my love I can save him from his obsession". The stalking and BDSM stuff was icky but 'meh'.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

"Rules?"

A BDSM story has no obligation whatsoever to observe the so-called "rules" of the field as established by experienced BDSM practitioners. Its purpose is to entertain readers who like the subject. My guess is that the vast majority of those readers have never actually participated in BDSM to a significant degree and don't know about, or care about, its rules. They just want to be entertained.

Absolutely true, but I think his point is that if you are going to write an authentic BDSM story, you really ought to research it. The writer it seems did not and wrote an inauthentic piece. Now, the author has no obligation to write an authentic piece. This also does not mean that the author wrote well. Your point stands, because the story was obviously very popular, but the BDSM crowd hates it because it is so staggeringly inaccurate.

I hate to sound kindergarten, I cringe at the sound of the idiom, but in this instance it really is true: you're both right. This is one time when both of your opinions can easily coexist here and it's not worth mudslinging.

 

[SimonDoom]

Absolutely true, but I think his point is that if you are going to write an authentic BDSM story, you really ought to research it. The writer it seems did not and wrote an inauthentic piece. Now, the author has no obligation to write an authentic piece. This also does not mean that the author wrote well. Your point stands, because the story was obviously very popular, but the BDSM crowd hates it because it is so staggeringly inaccurate.

I hate to sound kindergarten, I cringe at the sound of the idiom, but in this instance it really is true: you're both right. This is one time when both of your opinions can easily coexist here and it's not worth mudslinging.

I agree with you. It's certainly fair to fault 50 Shades for moral confusion and incoherence, among other things. What I chafe at is the idea that there's a small group of people who feel they are the gatekeepers for what's "appropriate" BDSM erotica. It's the READERS who determine what's the appropriate scope of entertainment, and most of them have no clue about BDSM rules. They just want fun stories that "feel" to them like BDSM stories, and nobody can tell them that their feelings are wrong.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I agree with you. It's certainly fair to fault 50 Shades for moral confusion and incoherence, among other things. What I chafe at is the idea that there's a small group of people who feel they are the gatekeepers for what's "appropriate" BDSM erotica. It's the READERS who determine what's the appropriate scope of entertainment, and most of them have no clue about BDSM rules. They just want fun stories that "feel" to them like BDSM stories, and nobody can tell them that their feelings are wrong.

I saw the Phantom of the Opera stage show recently. Brilliant, and having been performed constantly for 40+ years (bar covid), clearly has something going for it. It's got me musing on Gothic romance - obsessive, violent men chasing and controlling (usually) pure, innocent girls. There's clearly a market for it and no-one is going around saying 'this phantom chap sure is raising a lot of red flags'

We've been over this ground before and I've suggested the terms Dark BDSM and Community BDSM here: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/the-biology-of-bsdm.1643015/post-101753380

I'm pondering making a thread on the word 'gatekeeping' because I've long thought much abused. Maybe later, once I've got my thoughts together...