Present Tense and story ratings

[crookedletter]

I guess my question is why does one fit a story better than another?

I understand that 1P is more intimate than 3P. What does present change versus past?

The differences are subtle. It's a similar degree of intimacy I would say, a more immediate connection to the events of the story. And some approaches make it feel a little more or less awkward to step outside of the "present" course of the story, to provide backstory or look forward.

If the distinction feels arbitrary to you in what you're working on, then there's no reason to deviate from your initial instinct.

First of all: Not for everybody.

Okay. I never claimed to speak for everybody.

Second: read what you wrote again about "if you do it well." Not-being-done-well IS the objection.

Is it? Seems like a blanket objection over one particular point of view/tense combination has little/nothing to do with its execution.

 

[Britva415]

I've been seeing you make the argument for "framing" POVs for the past two years

Just the 1p one. But especially the 1p present.

Can't wait to read it!

 

[PennyThompson]

Personally, I don’t really enjoy reading present tense

 

[Britva415]

Is it? Seems like a blanket objection over one particular point of view/tense combination has little/nothing to do with its execution.

If it's me who gave the impression of blanket objection, that must have been from a thread about 2p, not this one

Beyond that, I have been saying all along that there are ways to do this well. It isn't a blanket.

I never claimed to speak for everybody.

"It will work" is a blanket statement. But I'm glad we're on the same page about how stylistic choices still won't "work" for everyone no matter how well one does it, as if it really were just a matter of execution and there were no allowance for taste. That's what I was pushing back on.

 

[StillStunned]

Just the 1p one.

I recall you having issues with 2P as well, but maybe that's just my general state of confusion.

Can't wait to read it!

Don't hold your breath. My productiveness and focus are at a low ebb, and this would be quite a lengthy tale.

 

[Britva415]

I recall you having issues with 2P as well, but maybe that's just my general state of confusion.

Not with regard to "framing," though.

My objection to 2p is so vigorous as a matter of taste that I will never lift a finger to make technical arguments on the subject.

 

[crookedletter]

"It will work" is a blanket statement. But I'm glad we're on the same page about how stylistic choices still won't "work" for everyone no matter how well one does it, as if it really were just a matter of execution and there were no allowance for taste. That's what I was pushing back on.

Fair. Just for clarity what I meant by "work" is more from a craft perspective than reception. Nothing works for everyone. But if a story is well executed, its pieces all fit together, etc. etc., then I would say that's a story that "works," on its own merits, even if it's not to everyone's taste.

 

[MillieDynamite]

No, I don't do Inception references on anything. Didn't like the movie. I started writing stories last year in first person present tense. She-Wolf 750-Word Story is one of them.

Super confusing! Are you in @TheRedLantern 's story universe or are they in yours?

I swear they said in Inception "nobody has ever gone this deep" but now I can't find it as an attributable quote. And I'll be damned if I'm gonna re-watch it

 

[TheLobster]

I think I shared it before in the coffee shop thread, but it definitely bears repeating here. If you are puzzled by the narrative effect created by different combinations of tense and person, watch this:

She makes especially salient points about present tense in both 1P and 3P, and how they are both different from each other and from their past tense analogues.

 

[TheLobster]

I swear they said in Inception "nobody has ever gone this deep" but now I can't find it as an attributable quote. And I'll be damned if I'm gonna re-watch it

Pro tip (or maybe just the tip): IMDB has a quote pages for movies. The more memetic the movie is, the more likely it is that basically everything characters said that’s even slightly usable out of context will be there; I’d expect Inception to be thoroughly transcribed, so you can just Ctrl+F to find whatever you need

 

[Britva415]

Pro tip (or maybe just the tip): IMDB has a quote pages for movies. The more memetic the movie is, the more likely it is that basically everything characters said that’s even slightly usable out of context will be there; I’d expect Inception to be thoroughly transcribed, so you can just Ctrl+F to find whatever you need

If it's there.

 

[Actingup]

View attachment 2583820

“… unless I’m secretly in love with the author.” Isn’t that what I wrote?

 

[old_prof]

If the distinction feels arbitrary to you in what you're working on, then there's no reason to deviate from your initial instinct.

Or I'm simply naive enough in my writing to not know better.

 

[PennyThompson]

“… unless I’m secretly in love with the author.” Isn’t that what I wrote?

Don't do this to me on a Monday

 

[crookedletter]

Or I'm simply naive enough in my writing to not know better.

Well you don't know until you do. Maybe someday you'll be writing something, you'll decide on a whim to make a tense switch, and you'll say "Huh. That's what that does." Until then just do what feels right.

If you don't keep learning as you go then what's the point, anyway?

 

[MillieDynamite]

Interesting.

I think I shared it before in the coffee shop thread, but it definitely bears repeating here. If you are puzzled by the narrative effect created by different combinations of tense and person, watch this:

She makes especially salient points about present tense in both 1P and 3P, and how they are both different from each other and from their past tense analogues.

 

[Britva415]

I'm puzzled by the narrative effect of using a voice from a POV which would have been impossible to know the events described.

Or - even more puzzling - one which couldn't possibly actually convey the narrative, given in-universe constraints.

 

[MillieDynamite]

It's the most intimate way of telling stories. As you read it, it's happening, it hasn't happened, it's happening in that moment.

I'm puzzled by the narrative effect of using a voice from a POV which would have been impossible to know the events described.

Or - even more puzzling - one which couldn't possibly actually convey the narrative, given in-universe constraints.

 

[Britva415]

It's the most intimate way of telling stories. As you read it, it's happening, it hasn't happened, it's happening in that moment.

Oh, I wasn't even talking about present vs past. But yeah, that does multiply the difficulty.

 

[old_prof]

I'm puzzled by the narrative effect of using a voice from a POV which would have been impossible to know the events described.

Or - even more puzzling - one which couldn't possibly actually convey the narrative, given in-universe constraints.

I think I don't understand this comment. Are you saying 1P is a POV which would not know the events that are unfolding. Or are you saying that it should be impossible to be inside the narrator's head? Isn't the point of 1P to make the reader feel like they are being the MC. Or at least living inside their head?

Is your point that you can buy into the level of telepathy needed by the narrator in a third close or third omniscient, but you can't buy "being" the main character?

 

[Britva415]

I think I don't understand this comment. Are you saying 1P is a POV which would not know the events that are unfolding

No. More that, sometimes writers narrate stuff which their 1p protag narrator couldn't narrate.

I'm also not saying this is a flaw inherent to all 1p. Just a somewhat common one, and a very poor one when it happens.

So, any author who isn't doing this, rest easy, I'm not talking about you

Or are you saying that it should be impossible to be inside the narrator's head? Isn't the point of 1P to make the reader feel like they are being the MC. Or at least living inside their head?

Speaking for myself, I usually don't take it that way. I take it as a story being told.

The fact that authors often appear to assume that this is how the reader will take it mitigates things somewhat. But I still feel that there should be something in the written story which conveys to the reader the idea that they are not an audience, as far as the "POV character" is concerned.

Not to say "the narrator," since we seem to be talking about a case where calling them a narrator is somehow not... well, the case.

Is your point that you can buy into the level of telepathy needed by the narrator in a third close or third omniscient, but you can't buy "being" the main character?

A 3p narration from the POV of an actual in-universe character can, and sometimes does, run into telepathy pitfalls. And, no, I don't buy it!

But I don't consider narration from a disembodied and omniscient POV, even if it's close, to be telepathic at all. That "person" is 100% capable of telling a story to an audience without telepathizing the storytelling. They are also capable of knowing the protag's experience without telepathy either. I don't consider omniscient knowing from a privileged POV to be telepathy.

And if it's telepathy we're talking about, then, a story where the 1p narrator narrates telepathically (yes, you have identified one of my peeves) is not a story where the audience is supposed to "be" the POV character. Those are two different things.

I get that making the reader "be" the POV MC is one possible valid intention behind 1p narration, and that thhere are many stories which apparently proceed from that intention. I just don't like it - and that's purely a matter of taste. As a matter of technique, see above where I say I still would like for this intention to be indicated somehow. I can't name a good way how to do that.

I will say this: Having had this conversation, maybe in the future I'll be a little more cognizant of that possible intention, and look for it, so that if the author doesn't fill in that blank, it will be a little easier for me to do it myself, and get over the whole thing I go through about "who am I to them, how/why are they telling me this, what is the in-universe justification for this in-universe act of storytelling I'm perceiving." So, for that, thanks.

As far as understanding the comment goes - really, I was poking fun at bad implementations of 1p where the specific flaws I named exist. Not tarring and feathering all 1p with the same brush.

 

[Britva415]

I actually don't like the idea of the conceit behind a given 1p story being that the reader IS the POV character.

I don't like it, but I respect it. And I recognize that it can be done well.

This concept seems to be unassailable from some hypothetical "well, it can also be done poorly and usually is" angle. But it certainly can be done "more well" sometimes. Where, what "sometimes" means is that this particular detail probably isn't the only, or the biggest, thing in the story which cold be done more well.

I almost never dislike a story's technical execution because of just one thing.

Almost. (Looking at you, 2p)

 

[old_prof]

I get that making the reader "be" the POV MC is one possible valid intention behind 1p narration, and that thhere are many stories which apparently proceed from that intention. I just don't like it - and that's purely a matter of taste. As a matter of technique, see above where I say I still would like for this intention to be indicated somehow. I can't name a good way how to do that.

To me, that is the presumption of 1P. I think the expectation should be to explain what is intended if not this.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

could present tense be holding me back when a few 5-star votes could mean the difference between placing and not placing?

A consideration I haven't seen mentioned yet: some people will dock a star for grammatical errors and you might be more error-prone in present tense.

That was my experience in the one first-person present story I've written so far (Vampires Don't Wait Tables). I kept slipping back into past. Or sometimes I would use past perfect ("I had eaten") where I should have used simple past ("I ate") for actions completed before the present moment.

 

[Britva415]

To me, that is the presumption of 1P

To me, I hope that I have helped you examine that presumption.

You certainly have helped me examine my own presumption of "nuh uh"