Rating and Raters

[yukonnights]

Lesbian is a pretty friendly category. I've been posting there for years, I've had a few stories that were sitting in the category top-ten for a bit, and I can't recall ever being seriously bombed. Even the comments are pretty gentle there - I can only recall receiving one hostile comment from a reader on Lesbian.

The main way to go wrong there is by surprising the readers with prominent male-female content. That will get a low rating, though I wouldn't call that "trolling" so much as "natural reaction to author disrespecting the category".

Heavy male-gaze stories are unlikely to do well and may draw some "this was obviously written by a guy" comments. But nothing remotely approaching the graphic murder-fantasies of LW commenters.

Sort of off topic, but you're here and maybe you'll see this; I'm sort of perplexed about a new story I outlined today off a story idea from that forum. It's a bisexual FFM theme. I asked over there about where to put it, noting that anything MM is best put in the Gay Category. It seems logical to me to put a FFM bi story in the Lesbian Category. But the male being in there concerns me. One suggestion was Group Sex, but to me it should be in the LGBTQ family of categories. Anyone have some experience with this theme and where to put it?

I had a very popular Lesbian story that included a male...but he was the a-hole antagonist and it didn't end well for him. I don't think that counts as a man in a lesbian story in the sense that he's actually involved in a positive way.

 

[Voboy]

Sort of off topic, but you're here and maybe you'll see this; I'm sort of perplexed about a new story I outlined today off a story idea from that forum. It's a bisexual FFM theme. I asked over there about where to put it, noting that anything MM is best put in the Gay Category. It seems logical to me to put a FFM bi story in the Lesbian Category. But the male being in there concerns me. One suggestion was Group Sex, but to me it should be in the LGBTQ family of categories. Anyone have some experience with this theme and where to put it?

I had a very popular Lesbian story that included a male...but he was the a-hole antagonist and it didn't end well for him. I don't think that counts as a man in a lesbian story in the sense that he's actually involved in a positive way.

I wouldn’t put a penis in the lesbian category unless it was WELL signposted. Like, in the title or description. Like Bramblethorn says above, you gotta respect the category. If I’m a reader looking for what I think is an FF story, I am NOT going to want to read about graphic straight sex.

Me, I’d put that in Group. Especially if the MF content is just as prominent as the FF content.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I wouldn’t put a penis in the lesbian category unless it was WELL signposted. Like, in the title or description. Like Bramblethorn says above, you gotta respect the category. If I’m a reader looking for what I think is an FF story, I am NOT going to want to read about graphic straight sex.

Me, I’d put that in Group. Especially if the MF content is just as prominent as the FF content.

Or Erotic Couplings. Group seems to be a very low response category, from what I've found. I'm not sure I'd post there again.

 

[TxRad]

FFM works well in group and they are a friendly crowd for the most part.

 

[RejectReality]

At a bare minimum an FFM story in Group will do at least as will as it would in EC, and it certainly makes more sense going into group. I suspect Laurel would move it there if you put it in EC anyway.

There's a massive double standard when it comes to FF as opposed to MM. FF really isn't a problem anywhere, while MM is viciously attacked everywhere except in the GM category.

 

[SimonDoom]

That sounds like a Group story to me. Always keep readers in mind. Generally speaking, readers aren't squicked by the "FF" element in "FFM" the way they are about the "MM" element in "MMF." That's just the way it is. Having two women going at it in a three way doesn't really make it a bisexual story necessarily from the point of view of the reader, which is what matters if you are interested in connecting with the largest, most appropriate readership.

I wouldn't put it in Erotic Coupling. After all, if there are three it's not really coupling, is it?

 

[tomlitilia]

Or Erotic Couplings. Group seems to be a very low response category, from what I've found. I'm not sure I'd post there again.

I haven't seen a lower than average activity in Group

 

[tomlitilia]

That sounds like a Group story to me. Always keep readers in mind. Generally speaking, readers aren't squicked by the "FF" element in "FFM" the way they are about the "MM" element in "MMF." That's just the way it is. Having two women going at it in a three way doesn't really make it a bisexual story necessarily from the point of view of the reader, which is what matters if you are interested in connecting with the largest, most appropriate readership.

I wouldn't put it in Erotic Coupling. After all, if there are three it's not really coupling, is it?

Erotic Thropling, the next on the list of sugested categories?

 

[SimonDoom]

I haven't seen a lower than average activity in Group

According to 8Letters' threads on Statistical Analysis about a year ago, Group Sex was a middle of the pack category in terms of views, higher than Erotic Couplings, which was low-middle.

 

[Javahead]

Can you get from the first few paragraphs whether it's a BTB story or not?

I think it’s usually of “skim till offended” - but often, yes.

Based on the comments from others from the AH, I'm not the only one getting several beatings, every time I post a new story, regardless of the category. It may be personal, but it's more likely that some people just go through all of the new stories, bombing everything on their way.

To get an idea, look at the new stories under each story heading. LW starts LOW - usually below a 2 - for every story that doesn’t flag it’s BTB in the title or blurb. Then, over the next few days the scores gradually climb.

Occasionally, thanks to sweeps and being both a good and well known writer, a non BTB story can climb higher - I think ChloeTzang’s “White Wedding” has a red H now - but they all start low and need to overcome a dozen or more reflexive one bombs to do so.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

YN, I’d put in in Group if it were mine but, ya know, it’s your story and you can submit it anywhere you want. I’ve only had the site try to change where one of mine was posted and I was able to go back to them and get it put where I had originally wanted it.

I do agree that putting it into Lesbian without an up-front willie-warning is asking for a solid napalming. Beyond that, explaining why you think a two-vag’s-and-a-dick story belongs in the all-girls section might help, but I suspect you would still find it an uphill slog. Lesbian does not always equate to bi and some Lesbian readers feel strongly about it.

 

[yukonnights]

Mucho thanks to all you folks. It looks like the collective wisdom dictates Group...so Group it will be!

 

[Bramblethorn]

Sort of off topic, but you're here and maybe you'll see this; I'm sort of perplexed about a new story I outlined today off a story idea from that forum. It's a bisexual FFM theme. I asked over there about where to put it, noting that anything MM is best put in the Gay Category. It seems logical to me to put a FFM bi story in the Lesbian Category. But the male being in there concerns me. One suggestion was Group Sex, but to me it should be in the LGBTQ family of categories. Anyone have some experience with this theme and where to put it?

Yeah, handling of MM and FF is not symmetric.

I suspect part of the reason is - very often IRL and in fiction, F-F sex and relationships are treated as just a hot extra for the benefit of the guy in a M-F couple. "Last week we tried whipped cream, this week my girlfriend's going to make out with another guy just to get me hot." Readers in Lesbian aren't very keen on seeing F-F relationships treated as ancillary to F-M. M-M doesn't have quite the same history.

If the MF and FF parts have roughly equal weight, I'd put it in Group, assuming there are in fact group scenes in it and no other category seems appropriate. (My MFF threesome story ended up in Ex/Voy, but if it hadn't, I'd probably have gone to Group. Or maybe Mind Control or NC/Reluc, I dunno.)

If the FF aspect is primary but the MF content is important to the story, I'd put it in Lesbian but with a note up front to let readers know the score - "this is a romance between two women but there's some hetero content".

I had a very popular Lesbian story that included a male...but he was the a-hole antagonist and it didn't end well for him. I don't think that counts as a man in a lesbian story in the sense that he's actually involved in a positive way.

Lesbian doesn't mean man-hating. (A lot of the readers and authors in that category are male!) Most of what I've written in Lesbian has sympathetic male characters. It's more about not wanting to see the F-F elements treated as subordinate to the M-F ones.

I do agree that putting it into Lesbian without an up-front willie-warning is asking for a solid napalming. Beyond that, explaining why you think a two-vag’s-and-a-dick story belongs in the all-girls section might help, but I suspect you would still find it an uphill slog. Lesbian does not always equate to bi and some Lesbian readers feel strongly about it.

Clarification - bi activity can raise hackles, but bi characters aren't likely to be a problem. Of the four main characters in my two Lesbian stories: one is "straight but making an exception", one is bi/pan, one is "lesbian but not Gold Star", and one is "lifelong lesbian but stayed in a long-term relationship with partner after he transitioned to male".

I haven't had any flak from readers about that, and indeed the "straight woman falls for gay" is a pretty popular trope in that category - plenty of HoF stories fit that description.

From forum discussions I know there are a few readers who prefer their lesbians strictly lesbian, but AFAICT that just translates into "I stop reading when one of the characters is identified as bi", not "I will flame it". Bless people who are smart enough to seek out what they enjoy instead of hate-reading what they don't.

(I am unsure how readers in that category would respond to a non-op trans woman. If anybody has explored that, I'd be curious to hear experiences.)

 

[Heartsongs]

I wrote a couple FFM stories that did well in Group. I then wrote a couple more and put them in other categories thinking I might find new readers. It was a mistake, views went down significantly. I think what I learned, though, was that appropriate tags may find readers across multiple category subjects. After ten stories, I'm finally figuring out the importance of tags. Use other categories for tags if your story crosses into the boundaries of other categories, especially if it's hard to choose into which category the story fits. ie Lesbian Anal, Group Gay, First Time Humor.
Good Luck

 

[yukonnights]

Yeah, handling of MM and FF is not symmetric.

I suspect part of the reason is - very often IRL and in fiction, F-F sex and relationships are treated as just a hot extra for the benefit of the guy in a M-F couple. "Last week we tried whipped cream, this week my girlfriend's going to make out with another guy just to get me hot." Readers in Lesbian aren't very keen on seeing F-F relationships treated as ancillary to F-M. M-M doesn't have quite the same history.

If the MF and FF parts have roughly equal weight, I'd put it in Group, assuming there are in fact group scenes in it and no other category seems appropriate. (My MFF threesome story ended up in Ex/Voy, but if it hadn't, I'd probably have gone to Group. Or maybe Mind Control or NC/Reluc, I dunno.)

If the FF aspect is primary but the MF content is important to the story, I'd put it in Lesbian but with a note up front to let readers know the score - "this is a romance between two women but there's some hetero content".



Lesbian doesn't mean man-hating. (A lot of the readers and authors in that category are male!) Most of what I've written in Lesbian has sympathetic male characters. It's more about not wanting to see the F-F elements treated as subordinate to the M-F ones.



Clarification - bi activity can raise hackles, but bi characters aren't likely to be a problem. Of the four main characters in my two Lesbian stories: one is "straight but making an exception", one is bi/pan, one is "lesbian but not Gold Star", and one is "lifelong lesbian but stayed in a long-term relationship with partner after he transitioned to male".

I haven't had any flak from readers about that, and indeed the "straight woman falls for gay" is a pretty popular trope in that category - plenty of HoF stories fit that description.

From forum discussions I know there are a few readers who prefer their lesbians strictly lesbian, but AFAICT that just translates into "I stop reading when one of the characters is identified as bi", not "I will flame it". Bless people who are smart enough to seek out what they enjoy instead of hate-reading what they don't.

(I am unsure how readers in that category would respond to a non-op trans woman. If anybody has explored that, I'd be curious to hear experiences.)

Thank you Bt. This is all relevant and useful information.

If I stay true to my outline (yeah, right ), the primary pleasure is by far on the side of two females. The male is a device to bring a bit of tension in between the two females. In addition, I will have to include some FFM sexual scenes in order to use this device. Currently, the ending I have outlined has the sub-male finding, not a part of the FF's relationship so much as a trusted third party in sexual romps. I can see where this might tip the scale to the more neutral choice of Group Sex.

Your input, on top of everyone else's has been very helpful and much appreciated.

I wrote a couple FFM stories that did well in Group. I then wrote a couple more and put them in other categories thinking I might find new readers. It was a mistake, views went down significantly. I think what I learned, though, was that appropriate tags may find readers across multiple category subjects. After ten stories, I'm finally figuring out the importance of tags. Use other categories for tags if your story crosses into the boundaries of other categories, especially if it's hard to choose into which category the story fits. ie Lesbian Anal, Group Gay, First Time Humor.
Good Luck

Heartsongs, I'll take a peek at your stories. Thanks for bringing them to my attention. Also, I like that trick you're doing with the Tags & Categories — quite clever, and so much easier than straining my limited brain power to come up with good Tags