The Left Bank...a cafe and gallery for Lit artists and art lovers

[Angelofsex]

Re: Re: Is Art valued?

Hey there Hideous Kinky nice to see you and welcome

Well I was going to stay quiet but I wanted to reply to this comment. I think I can understand what you are saying but I have to be honest. I don't think I have seen many paintings that 'immortalize' acts of evil.

I would kind of answer your question with a question,

Why would any artist wish to use their creative talents to capture such destructive actions ?

I can understand painting a "victory" image in terms of warfare, or celebrating a great event or historical moment but personally I wouldn't find looking at a picture of the twin towers in flames a particularly enjoyable thing.

Fortunately I didn't know anyone affected directly by the hineous act but my Mom lives only 70 miles from NYC and my Sister was actually on the GW bridge when it happened.

I dare say though the extremists who perpetrated the disaster would find some perverse pleasure in such a picture.

Personally I think art generally is a celebration of Man and his achievements, not his tyranny or dark side.

What does anyone else thing about this - It is a very thought provoking question.

Snork

Well this is sometihing I can talk about. It is almost a year now, and remembering that day will always be with me. I only live 15 mins. from NY, that day I was in work when we heard about the first hit, then the other. My cousin works right there and I was so scare for her and her sisters, for that is tha area they work too. She knew how scare I would be so she call me to let me know she was okay. The people were going crazy trying to get out of there, and it took 15 hours for here to get out and home. She to live in NJ. Oh, also my work wanted us to leave earlier to get home to our families, to tell you that is where I wanted to be. The NJ Parkway was so dead....it is like the earth stood still.

We lost someone from work who works with us part time and he work at the World Trade Center full time. He left four kids behide. Not to see the towers anymore, leaves a image in our minds.

Sure an artist could do alot with it, but would it be right to make money off something so sad...3000 people gone......two buildings that was eye catching gone. But what is not gone is what we see in our minds and feel in our hearts.

You do have images of the twin towers with a eagle in the middle. But that is to say we are never to forget.

Sorry I could go on and on with this.

 

[Starfire]

Hey Snork, Angel ... and hi to all others who drop by.

HK's thoughts about art have made me think. She has a point. SM - there are valuable art pieces that depict all forms of human tragedy and misery - art is not just celebratory. HK cited Picasso's "Guernica" - a depiction of barbarism from the 1930s, and I have seen art in and around the nazi death camps in Poland. Art too was stimulated by the mass destruction and loss of life at Hiroshima. Music too - Shostakovitch's "Babi Yar" for example.

I'll come back to this one ...

 

[Starfire]

Re: By request

Starfire

I have put a page up on my website with a series of 10 images in black and white 3 back shots 3 front shots 3 looking down shots and 1 in black. I didn't want to clutter this thread up with them but the link is here

Portfolio in Black and White

Feel free to comment, I hope they will do.

I think I am posting too much in here so I am going to keep quiet and let some of the other people chat and discuss for a while.

Back to the SRP

see you all soon

Snork

I thank you, Snork ... the images are good ones, and I can certainly do something with them. However, they are not quite what I had in mind. Fussy git, aren't I? I'll get back to you ... but thanks once again.

 

[Angelofsex]

Hey Snork, Angel ... and hi to all others who drop by.

HK's thoughts about art have made me think. She has a point. SM - there are valuable art pieces that depict all forms of human tragedy and misery - art is not just celebratory. HK cited Picasso's "Guernica" - a depiction of barbarism from the 1930s, and I have seen art in and around the nazi death camps in Poland. Art too was stimulated by the mass destruction and loss of life at Hiroshima. Music too - Shostakovitch's "Babi Yar" for example.

I'll come back to this one ...

Since you say it like that, you are right there Starfire. There has been other mass destruction. Just that it has never hit so close to home for us in this time and age. There was Pearl Harbor destruction and the art that came from that. The ships being hit and people getting kill in Hawaii, also with no notice. Even though there was notice but no one could put it together.

 

[Snork Maiden]

Hey Snork, Angel ... and hi to all others who drop by.

HK's thoughts about art have made me think. She has a point. SM - there are valuable art pieces that depict all forms of human tragedy and misery - art is not just celebratory. HK cited Picasso's "Guernica" - a depiction of barbarism from the 1930s, and I have seen art in and around the nazi death camps in Poland. Art too was stimulated by the mass destruction and loss of life at Hiroshima. Music too - Shostakovitch's "Babi Yar" for example.

I'll come back to this one ...

OH GOODY !!! Bounces up and down in delight as a new debate takes the floor

Indeed HK did mention Picasso's Guernica, but I think you would agree that his work is highly subjective, surrealist cubism is an expression of a feeling (I think) as opposed to a specific subject, so in that respect it would be possiblr to 'paint' a picture of say happiness or sadness, confusion as opposed to the Battle of trafalgar or Washington crossing the Delware.

You have to be very careful because Art is open to interpretation as opposed to documenting the facts, because Art is less objective, and able to distort reality to suit the artists mood and impression at the time.

A Painting of a nazi concentation camp holds less impact IMHO than the cold reality of a photograph, that doesn't diminish the fact but does reduce the perception. The painting serving no purpose other than to allow the artist to express his own feelings about such a incident and not recording a truth but an interpretation of the truth. Such things can be dangerous, sometimes exaggerating and sometime trivialising the events.

I am not that familiar with Shostokovich's 13th but I do have the Leningrad (5th) which is a very powerful piece of music, I'm not sure but I think he wrote it as Leningrad was being sieged.

Baba-Yaga as opposed to "Babi-Yar" by the way is an evil witch from Russian folklore and used by Mussorgsky in his "Pictures at an Exhibition", a piece I have for piano, orchestra, performed by Isao Tomita, and Emerson Lake and Palmer, you could say it is one of my favorite pieces of music and I suspect was Mussorgsky was a great influence in Shostakovich's work. But away from the music I don't want to side track the debate

over to you....


Oh I almost forgot...

You also have to be careful how you define tragedy and misery like the paintings of Christ suffering on a Cross or Joan of Arc or even Concentration camp victims with images of Evil intent.

 

[ariosto]

Lot's of food for thought this morning!
First Welcome HK! Your first post here was a real trigger for debate and that is always welcome. I hope you'll return often.

Angel I have wanted to ask you for a long time where you were on Sept.11, knowing that you live so close. Another good friend of mine Ticklish Girl was also in the area.

Here are a few examples of art dealing with atrocities...
Goya's Massacre of the 3rd of May and his entire suite of etchings on the Disasters of War, Max Beckmann's Departure of the Kings,
Jacques Callot...The Miseries of War, Picasso's Guernica has already been mentioned.
By the time WWII rolled around the art that celebrated Pearl Harbor and DDay was considered illustration rather than fine art (which is another arena for debate!) and now is considered anecdotal rather than relevant. That is the danger with nearly all extremely topical pieces, once the event is gone and fades away, so does the importance of the art that was driven by it.

Photography, video and film have usurped the documentary role of art...though one can argue that such works are merely a continuation of that role in a different medium.
I for one do not see how a painting or a drawing could even begin to approach the visual impact (no pun intended) of that plane crashing into the WTC, and to put some clever 'arty' twist to it would be to trivialise it to the point of obscenity.

Star..you ARE a harsh task master...Glad I'm not your model!
Snork I'm so glad you got those imagaes up...I hadn't seen them in B&W before...very, very, nice and I'm already sketching out the first one.

Busy day ahead not sure I'll be back till tonight..see ya'll.
s

 

[Arden]

OH GOODY !!!

A Painting of a nazi concentation camp holds less impact IMHO than the cold reality of a photograph, that doesn't diminish the fact but does reduce the perception. The painting serving no purpose other than to allow the artist to express his own feelings about such a incident and not recording a truth but an interpretation of the truth. Such things can be dangerous, sometimes exaggerating and sometime trivialising the events.


Oh I almost forgot...

You also have to be careful how you define tragedy and misery like the paintings of Christ suffering on a Cross or Joan of Arc or even Concentration camp victims with images of Evil intent.

Good Afternoon, All...

No time for debates, but todays thoughts gave me an idea for the recycled theme... something I could find easily in the tangled web of my house...

I scanned an image that is quite large, about the size of a computer screen... I can't seem to upload it to this page, I get an error saying it is too large. Any ideas of how I can place it here? I don't have any server based storage to link to. Would anyone with storage be willing to receive this as an attachment via e-mail and post it for all to view?

To reduce the size would lose the impact of the images...

My entry is titled:

"Christmas Greetings From Nordhausen 1944"

Arden

 

[Snork Maiden]

Arden's Recycled Pic

The link below is to Arden's "Recycled" entry

Christmas Greetings From Nordhausen 1944

 

[Arden]

Re: Arden's Recycled Pic

The link below is to Arden's "Recycled" entry

Christmas Greetings From Nordhausen 1944

Many thanks, Snork!

Yes, the composition left much to be desired...

These photos, and Christmas card are from my father's collection. He was in the US Army's 329th Timberwolf Division during WW2, and they went to Nordhausen to render whatever aid they could after a tour through France, Belgium and Germany. The card and the photos may not have been from exactly the same moment in time, but what irony exists... the young GI's, sending Christmas greetings home alongside photos from the Nordhausen Concentration Camp...

A painting would lose effectiveness, but pictures speak a thousand words...

 

[Snork Maiden]

Recycled

Well I debated on what I could do not being at all artistically orientated and yes I know it is cliche but art can be like that cant it so here is my effort

 

[Starfire]

OH GOODY !!! Bounces up and down in delight as a new debate takes the floor

Indeed HK did mention Picasso's Guernica, but I think you would agree that his work is highly subjective, surrealist cubism is an expression of a feeling (I think) as opposed to a specific subject, so in that respect it would be possiblr to 'paint' a picture of say happiness or sadness, confusion as opposed to the Battle of trafalgar or Washington crossing the Delware.

You have to be very careful because Art is open to interpretation as opposed to documenting the facts, because Art is less objective, and able to distort reality to suit the artists mood and impression at the time.

A Painting of a nazi concentation camp holds less impact IMHO than the cold reality of a photograph, that doesn't diminish the fact but does reduce the perception. The painting serving no purpose other than to allow the artist to express his own feelings about such a incident and not recording a truth but an interpretation of the truth. Such things can be dangerous, sometimes exaggerating and sometime trivialising the events.

I am not that familiar with Shostokovich's 13th but I do have the Leningrad (5th) which is a very powerful piece of music, I'm not sure but I think he wrote it as Leningrad was being sieged.

Baba-Yaga as opposed to "Babi-Yar" by the way is an evil witch from Russian folklore and used by Mussorgsky in his "Pictures at an Exhibition", a piece I have for piano, orchestra, performed by Isao Tomita, and Emerson Lake and Palmer, you could say it is one of my favorite pieces of music and I suspect was Mussorgsky was a great influence in Shostakovich's work. But away from the music I don't want to side track the debate

over to you....


Oh I almost forgot...

You also have to be careful how you define tragedy and misery like the paintings of Christ suffering on a Cross or Joan of Arc or even Concentration camp victims with images of Evil intent.

nope ... I do not agree that "Guernica" is surrealist cubism ... it is VERY real.


www.aestheticrealism.org/GUERNICA_dk.htm

... and Mussorgsky's piece is entirely different to Shostakovich's "Babi Yar" - which was a jewish killing field close to Kiev. Yevtushenko's poem is worth a look too.

Ari ... yes, I am a harsh task master ....

Arden ... the link didn't work for me. Pity. I will try again later.

SM ... is that a glass of what I think it is????

 

[Angelofsex]

Angel I have wanted to ask you for a long time where you were on Sept.11, knowing that you live so close. Another good friend of mine Ticklish Girl was also in the area.

----------------------

Thank you Ari......A day that will always be there......The tears went a long time......Massacre, destruction, war or any killings, always innocent people gets killed.

World War 2 with the Jews playing for nothing, only because they were. What did they did they ever do to the Germans at that time......Just picturing is turning my stomack.

Pearl Habor......the picture of the men, running to react to the Japanese.....and not having a chance.

Then the war that never should of happen...Vietnam.....picturing a war for nothing......again innocent men and women.

Then 9-11.......what do we call that....it wasn't a war....became one.......again the innocent.

Now can you picture a painting of all.....it would show so much pain.......and the innocent crying out.

I am sorry if I am not making sence.........just that 9-11 really gets to me........not seeing the two towers anymore.......and all the people gone.

 

[tryingsumtinnew]

I think it has touched us all in many different ways. Unfortunately this is something we will never be able to completely prevent. To me though it makes me ever so proud to know that no matter what some other countrie does we will stand tall and never back down from the face of darkness. I served my country prouldy and know that if faced with it, I would have gladly given my life to protect our way of life. Patriots are something this country will never lack! While our thoughts and prayers go out to those families that lost loved ones in such a cowardly act, we should remember that this country would not even be independent if it weren't for so many men and woman giving their lives for our way of living.





*watching OLD Glory fly higher than ever*

 

[Arden]

Arden ... the link didn't work for me. Pity. I will try again later.

Click on the link, then click on guests.snorkmaiden.com, then click on Arden, then click of Christmas Greetings From Nordhausen 1944...

 

[Snork Maiden]

nope ... I do not agree that "Guernica" is surrealist cubism ... it is VERY real.

www.aestheticrealism.org/GUERNICA_dk.htm

Well your quite entitled to disagree that doesn't change my opinion that it IS cubism or at least a prelude into it.

Well of course it's not real, its an abstraction of images anthropomoohized into the shapes and forms of people and animals.

As to your link, well I never regard the rantings of a student about a teacher without suspecting a degree of psychophantic adoration.

sic:It is one of the great purposes of art, I am so grateful to have learned from Eli Siegel, to make the ugliness of things bearable, and through the "indissoluble presence of relation" to show those things as continuous with what we see as beautiful. Picasso's Guernica has done that with an impact that has affected the world.

So what is this aesthetic Realism then!! Oh sorry it's a concept thought up by this Eli Siegel to double talk and psycho babble (and of course sell books and courses) damn the 80's were a time of enterprise and it took 50 years to come up with this dussie

So no I don't swallow it any more than I swallow the Papal controlled version of the new or old testament.

Hmmmmm seems very reminiscent of Freud, and we all know how that turned out. Watch out people there is a whole new band of Siegelians on the rise.

Sorry if this sounds sarcastic is really isn't supposed to be, but it does highlight the very thing that turns me off art, the psychology and proported self appointed expertism that people are suppose to bow down and agree to.

<--- Added because I forgot
I wasn't comparing Shostakovich to Mussorgsky BTW I was commenting on the fact that Shostakovich's work was inspired in many ways from the work of Modest. My reference to Baba Yaga was aside, I was reminded of it from the similarity in titles and the Russian Folklore snippit is because I have a separate passion for Folklore which inspires much of the Music and Literature from Europe and Asia.
---->

chew on that

Snork

Arden's pic link again

Sorry I messed up and used Arden instead of arden in the url

So I'm not perfect after all LOL

 

[Snork Maiden]

Recycled - Step through

OK I know I rushed my pic up LOL it only took me 30 minutes you can tell can't you

Why because I wanted to prove anyone can do this sort of thing, to me art isn'r about producing anatomically correct perspective, its about creating a visual representation of an idea.

Initially I was going to use the recycled symbol as a centerpoint but the idea was too complicated so I went simple

What is recycling ?
Making use of disgarded material for new products
Manufacturer -> Consumer -> Disposal -> Manufacturer

Water
Nature recycles water from evaoration to precipitation to collection in the sea

The body recycles water from ingestion to metabolism to excretion

Society recycles water from sewer to treatment plant to consumer

Glass well glass is one of the most recycle able products man has
made, plus its environmentally friendly

So I ended up with an image of a glass of water

A quick Internet search provided me with the raw image
In effect I recycled an old image

the attached picture shows the steps involved in my simple creation but I hope it is effective in its simplicity.

Snork

 

[ariosto]

Snork dear...I've taught Art History for nearly thirty years...Good God!...that long...
So I feel adequate to make a few observations about Guernica.
First it is not a prelude to cubism. Picasso and Braque had cooked up cubism nearly thirty tears before and the 'Old Man' had discarded it as anything but a decorative affectation by this time.
Picasso was moved to paint this because of what the world viewed as a hideous atrocity..ie the carpet bombing of a defensless city. WW2 Hadn't happened yet to accustom us to Dresdens and Hiroshimas.
Picasso was a staunch supporter of the Republican system in Spain and an enemy of Franco and his fascist supporters.
He saw in this terrible event a possible means of presenting Spain's plight to the western democracies in the hope of some sort of intervention before it was to late.
The paintingwas intended for the Spanish Pavillion at the NY worlds fair where the world could view it...(and remember Picasso's reputation at this time was firmly set)..people paid attention to wha he said and what he did.
But it was a race against time that he lost...in spite of painting furiously, and marks of his haste can be seen everywhere in the painting, the Republican government had fallen by the time the fair opened and Franco would determine what went into the Spanish Pavillion. Not only was Guernica excluded but Picasso himself was exiled from the his own country and not allowed to return until he was a very very old man.
The painting was loaned to MOMA under the stipulation that it be returned to Spain when a government came to power that wanted it back.
That happened in the late 70s but even today the work is heavily guarded to make sure old fascists do not destroy it.
This was in many ways the most serious work in his life and a great deal more than a subjective exercise in Cubist/surrealism.
Picasso by the way never liked surrealism at all.

Love ya Snork but here I do disagree.

Now about the glass of water...(thank goodness it's not what Star thought!)
It's a very clever idea and using the web and software it is amazingly quick to put a flashy image together fast.
That does not however make all things equal.
I know that I spent about 6 hours or more on mine.
Nor do I think the visual arts need be singled out as the home of quick solutions...I daresay I can write a poem in a few minutes, but will the world pay any attention?

HK...Im so glad you presented that piece to us in a large format. One of the terrible limitations of digital images is the size of our monitors.
The collage was extremely powerful even though assembled in quickly.

Time I don't think is terribly relevant in the value of a work.
I've seen things done in a few minutes that can blow away a piece labored long and hard over and Im sure the same is true in most other creative arts.

GOD...this thread is getting involved!

Pernod anyone?

Angel love thanks for your personal insights on September 11th.
I meant to ask you about them long ago.

No time to edit!..pardon my English Star!

 

[Snork Maiden]

Ari, OMG , I feel like I just defiled a holy grail, and yes I was aware that it was a portrayal of the Spanish Civil War and German bombing under the command of Franco.

For sure Europe was entering a period of Fascism, Racial Intolerance and Nationalism. Added to this the role of the Catholic Church which was trying to re-estabilish itself in Portugal and Spain with the help of Franco and the conversion of Croatian Churches in Yugoslavia, Hungary and the other Balkan states with the aid of Mussulini.

Returning to Guenica, infact it was the Papal banner which was the first foreign flag to wave over Franco's diplomatic headquarters at Salamanca, and the horrific massacres of which the one at Guernica carried out by German Bombers under Franco's command was one, did not even receive a word of disapproval from the Vatican. Indeed Catholic Portugal was encouraged to act as a feeding ground for Franco's armies in these activities.

So in terms of subjectivity and objectivity the painting by Picasso may well have been a piece of work designed to provoke support for the liberals and anti-fasicist leagues in Spain at the time. It was clear that Spain would not have recieved much if any help from Europe or its neighbours because each of these countries in themselves were striving to adjust to their own internal problems. The Church was sitting on the fence waiting to claim converts and re-estabilish it own ecclesiastical domination with eyes focused firmly on the Orthodox Church in Russia which it regarded as a threat to itself.

The venue of the NY Trade fair was probably then designed to raise American support.

I am ashamed to say America did not respond as quickly as she could have to the activities occuring in Europe although she knew much about what was happening. Even Einstein had written to the president expressing his concerns. In a telephone call between Chamberlain and Roosevelt the only help offered was a verbal one of "Good Luck"

Roosevelt quickly signed the Act of Neutrality in November 1939 to protect US interests and yet allowed the US to trade and sell supplies to either side of a foreign national conflictit was very profitable and helped a flagging economy and it wasn't until 1941 when Pearl Harbor was bombed that suddenly it was realised the War in Europe was swinging towards a German Victory. Japan had allied with Germany and it wasn't until America felt vunerable that any action to fight the fascism of nearly 10 years was considered.

So with all this in mind would a subjective painting, and I remain certain the painting was subjective because it's aim was to provoke reaction. Would it actually have made any difference to the outcome. Everyone knew what was happening and still sat on the sidelines waiting to pick up the spoils and profits save one small protestant island.

Snork

 

[Starfire]

Chewing ...

I thought the words in the link would fire you up, Snork I only wanted to post a link to the image but couldn't resist ...

Well, that's Guernica done ... next?

Also ... conceptual art at its finest - the recycled water and glass - without the words and justification it is simply a glass of water. Now, how about three glasses ... one with clear rain water, one with tap water, and one with clear(ish) urine, all side by side on a bed of sand with an intense flame in the background

Oh ... hiya SM, Ari, Arden, HL, Mya ... et al.

 

[Jaenelle]

Starfire, Thanks for the welcome. I do drop in from time to time.

 

[ariosto]

Snork darlin' there are no Holy Grails in art, at least not to my mind....just wait till we cross pawns again!

Hi Jaenelle!



And I agree Star, we've 'done' Guernica.

So how about another Mystery Flesh entry to lighten the day...

 

[Snork Maiden]

I guess there aren't but I can understand people have a passion about certain things they like and I didn't mean to trivailize anything in that respect.

Well with a new week I 'd like to share another midi creation and this is one from my absolutely favorite group who have an absolutely massive fan base world wide and have just launced thier new web site and being a loyal fan I have to plug it shamelessly here

Tangerine Dream - Official Web Site

They have done so many atmospheric soundtracks for a lot of films and you probably didn't even know it was them and have numerous (we're talking 70 plus) albums to there credit and no I only have about 40 of them.

This peice I have sequenced here is an excerpt from a live album 'Encore' called 'Monolight' which was performed in the States when I was less than a year old LOL.

I hope you like it it's pretty close (considering I don't have all the synths they have at their disposal)

Snork

 

[ariosto]

Anybody still around?

 

[Snork Maiden]

Hey Ari, I'm still about.

I don't know much about Art but I do like fantasy and erotic art, I tink it's called 'Cheesecake' LOL which is good because I love cheesecake.

SO... I have hundreds of links to fabulous sites for now here is one to one of my heroes of 'dark' erotica Luis Royo.

Plenty of copyright violations going on I am afraid but still a very nice site and well presented.

The Dark One's Royo Gallery

Big hugs to everyone, I hope you are all well.

Snork

 

[Artemesia]

It is with delight to discover this thread - and I want to throw in my 2 cents.

We do a Day of the Dead show each here - for those of you unfamiliar with Dia de los Muertos - it is a Mexican holiday on November 1st and 2nd honoring the dead. Last year my piece centered around 9-11. It had to - there was too much that needed to be processed, too many images that I needed to get out. That was also my way of honoring the dead.

Artists respond to their world - you bet your bottom dollar you're going to see a lot of art come out that deals with that tragedy. And it will deal with evil, pain, loss, and lots of the "negative" things. Art is there to speak about all of that. It ain't all just purty pictures.

Ok... done for now...