The Left Bank...a cafe and gallery for Lit artists and art lovers

[ariosto]

Liking both yours and HK's pieces Star and thinking mine a bit drab in comparison.
Hmmmm....

No no!, I'm not saying anyone is angry but as one who has experience with how easily things can be taken personaly in this very limiting medium in which we co-exist I become rather cautious when I see a clash of opinions.

I'm sure both you and Snork are having a good time with the dialogue.

I'll post another update later on today. To be honest I have a lot on my plate here and might not be finished by noon tomorrow.

 

[Snork Maiden]

Hi's and Hugs to EVERYONE!

Hey Mya good to see you here . It's not heated and open to all it is good to see other people expressing their ideas and passions whether it's films, or pictures or opera or what ever. I certainly am not experience in anyway to discuss the finer things of art but I do like films and music not all of it but I like to think I have a wide range of likes and dislikes so please feel free to join in thats is I think the idea of the thread, to talk about art and discuss it over a latte or expresso.


Starfire, absolutely I am not angry with you or anyone. I would be the first to admit sometimes I write aggressively and I think sometimes people mis-read my passion for a topic as being a personal attack. Absolutely not I try very hard not to get personal and yet discuss or push my own point of view probably too harshly. I very much enjoy such interchanges I think as Ari said so long as it is done with grace such things are healthy

You'll know If I get angry cause I'll probably sulk LOL. Gracefully as possible of course. And I admit I may have been a bit harsh on Blade Runner, it is a good film, but it certainly doesn't merit all the accolades it has slapped all over it. It was funny really because the night of the discussion I happened to catch Barbarella on the BBC I think it was, now, I know Dino De Laurentiis has done some pretty good movies in the sci fi genre, like Flash GOrdon, Dune etc and I have to say Barbarella has fabulously kitch feel about it, and yet it is enjoyable to watch and isn't Jane FOnda GOURGEOUS even if I do say so as a woman I am just so envious.

I guess I don't get worked up by art paintings as much as I should but I do love fantasy art, I don't know if that is a 'surreal' enjoyment of the works or the very nature of the pieces.

Ari, I am so out of touch with the music scene, (popular music) that is from States Side but the Brits have some real class acts I don't know I like all of it, certainly dislike some of it, but there is something for everyone. I do like instrumental works more than vocal, especially TD - keeps plugging Tangerine Dream, who have a phenomenal number of CD's and film soundtracks to their name.
And thanks for looking out for me <hugs> but I'm ok really


Snork

 

[mya]

Just a quick note today...

Thanks for the HK's scans Star. I am enjoying reading more into it than is probably intended and I'll be watching for the final piece. Your work also does that for me. So in terms of my own limited sense of art, both your pieces work well for me.

However, Ari, I do think your work is absolutely beautiful. I sincerely mean that. The beautiful fluid strokes of your pencil, charcoal, conte, pastels...whatever the medium are sensual and warm to me. Please don't stop.

And to Snork and Star...I have read no meanness in your debate at all. In fact I am enjoying from the sidelines. It is obvious to me that the two of you are well matched in this spirited parry of words and minds, and I have read nothing but the smiles you both have as you debate the issues in the truest sense of the form. You need not stop on my account that is for sure. I wish I had the confidence to join you on this, but I do not. So I sit by and enjoy it from the sidelines. Carry on!

 

[hornylady]

I think I shall be sitting on the sidelines too, but I wanted to say how much I've enjoyed reading the dialogue, and I'm definitely learning a lot from listening to your discussions. The pictures are good as well, and it's interesting seeing how you build up an idea in different stages. I just wish I was even a quarter as creative as you all seem to be!

 

[Starfire]

Let the battle continue then ...

Snork ... now that you have conceded that Blade Runner is actually a good film I am going to agree with you that it is probably overrated I was, however, using it as an example of a film that is more artistic than commercial in terms of its conceptual ideas, and it was certainly a film that helped us to define how the future looks - amazing how many sci-fi films have borrowed their "vision" of the future from Scott's work.

Barbarella is a cool film ... that opening weightless strip has stuck with me since my early teens, and yes, it does have a wonderfully kitsch feel to it.

Why should you get "worked up" by paintings? If they don't do it for you then they don't do it for you. However, one way I try to define art is that it should provoke a response in the viewer - whatever that response is. I was in the Tate recently (not The Tate Modern) and I found myself drifting quickly past the huge collection of Turner watercolours. I have seen them so many times, and there were so many of them that I hardly gave them a thought. Others seemed to be appreciating them simply because they were by Turner. There was also a dead horse (stuffed) hanging in the domed entrance area. I could appreciate this because it provoked a reaction in me. Amidst other comments such as "this is not art" I was able to stand beneath a horse, view it from a perspective I have never done before ... a similar experience to Damien Hirst's "Mother and Child" - walking inbetween two halves of a pregnant cow, looking at the intestines etc as some sort of surreal landscape.

We all know that da Vinci, Dali, Durer etc etc were highly skilled, but that is not all that art is about. I think about the pieces that do something inexplicable to me - in much the same way as music or poetry can - a Nolde storm scene, Munch's paintings of a sick girl, van Gogh's wicker chair with pipe, Rothko's sombre canvasses ... I have no idea why they do what they do and would not even atempt to use the pseudo psychobabble of art critics to try and convince others that they too should see such pieces in the same way as me. Mine is a personal and highly subjective reaction and as such it does not need justification.

In my own work, as with the current piece, there are often things that I agonise over, things with which I am not happy. Others may say they like it and that they see nothing wrong with it but ultimately it is down to the artist. I may change the angle of a line by a few degrees or deepen a one slightly - that may do the trick. Art criticism is a pretty futile occupation really - it can educate and inform to some degree but it will seldom change opinions: it is simply one person's subjective comments on someone else's highly subjective art work.

Nothing contentious there!

 

[Starfire]

Just a quick note today...

Thanks for the HK's scans Star. I am enjoying reading more into it than is probably intended and I'll be watching for the final piece. Your work also does that for me. So in terms of my own limited sense of art, both your pieces work well for me.


And to Snork and Star...I have read no meanness in your debate at all. In fact I am enjoying from the sidelines. It is obvious to me that the two of you are well matched in this spirited parry of words and minds, and I have read nothing but the smiles you both have as you debate the issues in the truest sense of the form. You need not stop on my account that is for sure. I wish I had the confidence to join you on this, but I do not. So I sit by and enjoy it from the sidelines. Carry on!

(praise for Ari cruelly edited by Starfire ... hehehe)

Mya - it would be interesting to hear what you "read into" the pieces ... (see previous post about subjective views on subjective creations!)

As to the debate ... you find us "well matched" ... nahhhh, I am much better than her! You have no confidence to voice your opinions and offer a view? Really? That surprises me: your posts come across as very lucid and confident. Please join in.

 

[Starfire]

I think I shall be sitting on the sidelines too, but I wanted to say how much I've enjoyed reading the dialogue, and I'm definitely learning a lot from listening to your discussions. The pictures are good as well, and it's interesting seeing how you build up an idea in different stages. I just wish I was even a quarter as creative as you all seem to be!

Welcome to the thread, HL ... good to see you here (can't remember if this is your first post and can't be arsed to check!) Please, as with Mya, feel free to join in. Snork won't bite ... but I may nibble a bit!

 

[ariosto]

Sipping coffee and debating a wild end run through the goldposts, madly finishing my piece on the fly...
Nahh...
Instead I'm going to submit six little drawings 2.5x3.5 inches. Which are all worked over photocopies of one of the three 'recycled' drawings that I submitted here when the project started.
Blame mya for this, since she introduced the idea of Artists Trading Cards and got me excited...something she does quite regularly

So here is a set of six variations, in addition to the image base, colored pencils, india ink, graphite pencil and richart tempera were used.

It's my answer to the 'recycled' project....

 

[Starfire]

I like those, Ari ... and congratulations on being the first to post the completed "recycled" work. I am struggling with mine ... probably because that pesky Snork distracted me!

I'll attack it tonight and post tomorrow.

Oh ... that sketch was by Eric Gill btw.

 

[ariosto]

Boy not a good picture...taken with an old digital...I should have scanned these in and will later on today...look for a repost.

Welcome HL...glad your enjoying the thread, but Star is wrong...SNORK CAN BITE!...look at these stitches!...

As for our ongoing investigation into the nature of art, I say again that esthetics are not universal (they never were) and that value and appreciation for any art is relative to the small or large group of people that give it a 'raison d'etre'.

So in the end no matter how learned our dialogue, in the broader sense, we simply voice our opinions.

I can appreciate a lot of different work, though I don't hold it all of equal value just because a particular response is triggered within.
I can apreciate the tactile, intricate and somewhat mesmerizing surface of a Jackson Pollack painting but do I give it equal stature with DaVinci's Last Supper, or Picasso's Guernica?
No...most certainly not. In my opinion good art must provide more than a passing fascination. I believe the best art still is capable of reaching and being understood by the general public and not inbred groups of elitists...though I will defend their right to adore the silly stuff to the end, since there is some silly stuff that I have a taste for myself.

Star..shame on you for deleting mya's justifiable praise. I paid her well for that!
And....I give up! WHO was the author of that piece of smut!

Speaking of which, here's a couple of pieces I'd like you to see and a link to the man's website. These aparently are not doctored images inspired by internet porn, but real works in traditional materials from models.
I'd like some opinions...how does XXX rated, original paintings and drawings play for you?
Does the fact that artists materials are being used, put the images on a different level than photographic pornography?

First the link...
http://www.erotic-fine-arts.com/

then the pictures....

 

[ariosto]

and...

a quote by Mister Wilson...

Painting images of sex without any attempt to say that they are anything else seems to delight some viewers and appall others. I think the realistic style contributes to the strong reaction among viewers. I am pleased with appalling or delighting and much prefer it to being ignored. This also makes the pictures hard for most people to hang on their walls which I'm quite use to after 30 years as an erotic painter

 

[ariosto]

Recycled project...final image...

 

[Jaenelle]

Wanted to thank everyone for there posting of all the art. I have been enjoying it although I havent had the time to voice it.

Im a busy lady lately and dont get the chance to drop in on this thread often.

 

[Starfire]

Welcome to the thread, Jaenelle.

Ari ... they look pretty cool. Both myself and HK are running behind schedule I'm afraid. I'm not sure how much time I will have today as it is results day so I will be in school.

Catch you all later.

 

[Snork Maiden]

Hey everyone, Snork here checking in to see whats been happening, sorry I didn't respond yesterday although I did read the posts.

Starfire, what can I say, there wasn'yt anything I I could ppick up and chew on in your last post, I hope you aren't trying to lull me into a false sense of security LOL.

However Ari posed a question

I'd like some opinions...how does XXX rated, original paintings and drawings play for you?
Does the fact that artists materials are being used, put the images on a different level than photographic pornography?

So perhaps I can spoon it up by adding some comments,

The two examples posted were pretty dull, from my point of view anyway, once again the gratification of the artist was in the exposition of the female for a male audience, the angle in the first clearly indicates that the view point is from the Man watching himself fellated, the second a view which indicates a third party voyeur again in a male perspective.

There is nothing spontaeous about either pieces rather they represent a snapshot of an act which in my opionion would have been more erortic as photos.

For me it is not an image of the act that is erotic but the hint of an intention which leads to speculation and imagination of what is to come that is more erotic.

A picture providing a starting point from which one can allow hers or his imagination to carry forward. The two images posted here leave the viewer with no opportunity to 'play out' the possibilities. And would appear to be nothing more than pictures drawn from photos as opposed to drawn from live models.

That my opinion anyway
Snork .

editted / added
I would just like to say in qualification of what I just posted, that Starfires AV for me is more Erotic than the BJ or DF pic .

 

[Starfire]

... to get back to my original point ...

... nice tits, Snork ...

 

[Starfire]

What the fuck is going on? ....

... I find myself agreeing with Snork again ... bring back the good old days!

The Wilson images I find neither arousing nor aesthetically pleasing. I must admit that I have produced similar material but that has been for a shared experience between myself and a partner and was never really intended for public consumption ... though I did have one as my AV for a while.

Does the fact that a drawing is inspired by a photograph make any real difference? For figure drawing I have relied heavily on photographs for the want of a model. I understand your point though ... an artist should add something rather than simply attempt to reproduce what is seen. It is no coincidence that the birth of modern art - the exhibition at the Paris Salon in 1870 - coincided with the development of the camera as a commercial tool. Photographic "realism" was no longer the preserve of the painter and artists were effectively "freed" to interpret the world around them in ways that the camera could not.

 

[ariosto]

Sta, your only agreeing with her because she has nice tits I bet.
But actually that's my consensus as well.
Whether done from live models or photo's they are trite porno shots with nothing very original added. The only new consideration is the traditional technique itself, disregarding the subject matter. Another words how well does he handle materials.

It might be nice if we all looked for something artwise that we do find personaly arousing.
Any takers?

Okay here are three of mine...all were inspired by erotic/porno photo's, but were cropped and altered then rendered in charcoal and pastel.
yea or nay?
I'm not looking for praise here by the way...I taught art for decades and I know the value of constructive criticism.

They are all in the 30-50 inch range sizewise...

 

[Snork Maiden]

<Blush>

Well what can a girl say when her Mammaries are the subject of such wonderful adulation.

Oh sorry Ari I thought you meant my breasts not my comments LOL

Eh bien, une critique pour la petite collection de trois peintures

Now you know I am not in any way biased Ari, and I shall be impartial as I may even knowing that you may reek revenge on me with the merest of pencil strokes <giggle> How can I not say you are a talented artist - well if I had my fingers crossed I could of course 'cause then it wouldn't count.

Your pictures give me a feeling that you have adopted a style reminiscent of the middle ages and renaisance. The use of browns and reds in most of your work I think gives this impression. I may be totally of beam of course because I am no way trained to recognise good style or bad. But certainly your 4 picyutes posted here are much more interesting than those 2 posted the other day.

The first picture is difficult to make out, I think it is a womans head tilted away and fellating her lover although the viewers attention is drawn straight way to the womans nipple, framed almost perfectly mid center of the painting and the penis takes a while to spot there

The top right picture I love, there is something which make you wonder, is this a woman carressing her man in a sarong after he has showered or... is it from a time long before. I love the colors and shadows which gives a feeling of soft lighting, mood setting.

Ok and the last one now again I had to think about this
At first I thought it was a woman straddling her lover bending forward to kiss him, but then I thought to my self hey no those are feeble thighs for a guy and then I realized its a soixant-neuf

As an overall critism My favorite was the second, simply because of the colors. Then the last or bottom one and the top one least because there is a lot of imagery but it seems crowded maybe if the view was expanded it would look better.

I have decided that you don't like blues and greens is there a reason for that?



Starfire, would you like to paint my breasts ?


Snork

 

[hornylady]

I agree with what's just been said regarding the Wilson drawings - nothing wrong with the way they've been drawn, but there's no subtlety at all. With Ariosto's 3 images, as Snork says you have to use your mind to consider what they might represent, so straight away they engage the viewer. Having said that, though, while I appreciate the skill that created them, and the tones and shading, they don't reach out and grab me, but then not everything sends that thrill down your spine.

 

[Starfire]

Sta, your only agreeing with her because she has nice tits I bet.
But actually that's my consensus as well.
Whether done from live models or photo's they are trite porno shots with nothing very original added. The only new consideration is the traditional technique itself, disregarding the subject matter. Another words how well does he handle materials.

It might be nice if we all looked for something artwise that we do find personaly arousing.
Any takers?

Okay here are three of mine...all were inspired by erotic/porno photo's, but were cropped and altered then rendered in charcoal and pastel.
yea or nay?
I'm not looking for praise here by the way...I taught art for decades and I know the value of constructive criticism.

They are all in the 30-50 inch range sizewise...

Naturally, Ari, you would not expect praise from me ... What yours have that the Wilsons didn't is originality, composition and an awareness of form. I particularly like the bottom left image and immediately began to get an idea for a series of 26 images - close-ups of human forms - each one depicting a letter of the alphabet!

Thanks for those.

 

[Starfire]

<Blush>

Well what can a girl say when her Mammaries are the subject of such wonderful adulation.

Oh sorry Ari I thought you meant my breasts not my comments LOL

Starfire, would you like to paint my breasts ?


Snork

<gulp>

 

[Snork Maiden]

By request

Starfire

I have put a page up on my website with a series of 10 images in black and white 3 back shots 3 front shots 3 looking down shots and 1 in black. I didn't want to clutter this thread up with them but the link is here

Portfolio in Black and White

Feel free to comment, I hope they will do.

I think I am posting too much in here so I am going to keep quiet and let some of the other people chat and discuss for a while.

Back to the SRP

see you all soon

Snork

 

[Hideous Kinky]

Is Art valued?

Crisis once inspired great artists to produce monumental works. Moments of crisis create a deep seated need for explanation and for the kind of defining statement that, tradionally, people have come to expect from art.

Take the collapse of the World Trade Center almost a year ago. But has the art world responded to this shocking form of murderous fanaticism?

Just about everyone else, I remember where I was when the Twin Towers fell. I just returned from the school run, and my daughter switched on the television. I remember feeling very disturbed by the horror of the images. The power of modern communication, media and television. The balance of power, when it comes to communication of large scale historical events, has shifted decisively away from fine art to the big media of television and newspapers. The making of a work of visual art is no longer an act of record, in the sense that it was in say Picasso's time, (Guernica).

Which takes me back to my original question, is art valued? The shocking truth of the image, in which lay much of it's power - nowadays anyone with a camera can see on the behalf of others. Has the artist role as a witness been well and truly surped by the camera?

How would you represent the horror of September 11th 2001 visually, in painted form? Has any artist portrayed the catastrophe?

I forgot to say "Hi!" - I have enjoyed reading this thread. Snork, you have fired up Star not only with your debate but your black and white photographs. Who took the photographs? You can certainly see the person behind the lens loves you and makes you happy.

I will not be online for sometime now and will not see the response to my post. Just a little piece of writing to make you think where does art stand in our modern culture.

Good bye folks - happy posting

Rachel

 

[Snork Maiden]

Re: Is Art valued?

Crisis once inspired great artists to produce monumental works. Moments of crisis create a deep seated need for explanation and for the kind of defining statement that, tradionally, people have come to expect from art.

Take the collapse of the World Trade Center almost a year ago. But has the art world responded to this shocking form of murderous fanaticism?.....

Hey there Hideous Kinky nice to see you and welcome

Well I was going to stay quiet but I wanted to reply to this comment. I think I can understand what you are saying but I have to be honest. I don't think I have seen many paintings that 'immortalize' acts of evil.

I would kind of answer your question with a question,

Why would any artist wish to use their creative talents to capture such destructive actions ?

I can understand painting a "victory" image in terms of warfare, or celebrating a great event or historical moment but personally I wouldn't find looking at a picture of the twin towers in flames a particularly enjoyable thing.

Fortunately I didn't know anyone affected directly by the hineous act but my Mom lives only 70 miles from NYC and my Sister was actually on the GW bridge when it happened.

I dare say though the extremists who perpetrated the disaster would find some perverse pleasure in such a picture.

Personally I think art generally is a celebration of Man and his achievements, not his tyranny or dark side.

What does anyone else thing about this - It is a very thought provoking question.

Snork