War on the "Trolls"

[Synthia]

I've noticed a number of authors have indicated they vote. I never do. Sometimes send positive and/or encouraging feedback only. I guess I have felt that my vote from the perspective of an author would not be appropriate.

I'm usually looking at the story from the standpoint of what ideas can I glean from it, writing style, use of language, etc. In other words, way too clinical.

Synthia

 

[BlackShanglan]

Then again, you're sane. Trust me, not all writers are.

I read a decent, far from great story a while ago, voted a 3 and sent a privarte feedback with my thoughts on it.

The reply was a long, sputtering profanity diatribe and a one-bomb raid.

This happened over and over, the complaints or retaliations not always as heads on. Most often just an angry email back. Never complaining about the feedback, always about the vote.

...until I gave up revealing who I was, and just voted instead.

Yes. I went that way as well. If I send feedback with a negative slant to it, I try to be polite, but I only sign it if the author is someone I know. Then again, I rarely trouble myself to leave feedback suggesting improvement specifically because it is such a thankless task. So few people really want it that in the end one assumes one is just annoying people. That serves no purpose, so generally I only give feedback to things posted on the SDC or feedback threads. Not, mind you, that those don't also provoke some bizarrely self-adoring reactions as well, but at least they seem to be less common.

I'm sure that there are authors who honestly mean it when saying that they are annoyed by anonymous low votes because they wish to learn how to change their writing. Most, however, seem simply to want a target at which to direct their envenomed dissapointment, or possibly a chance to "prove" that they deserved a different vote.

As an author, I'm with Cyn. I'm interested in PC's; I'm interested in feedback. I'm interested in the SDC, the feedback forum, and of course in what my friends and co-editors think. A fig for the random numbers hurled at the things by the masses; they could mean pretty much anything.

Shanglan

 

[Whisky7up]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boratus
Has anyone seen this? I read a story recently that had an H next to it but, in my opinion, fell well short of that score. However the author had turned both rating and feedback off. I believe that was just to maintain his position. How annoying is that?

The thing that always baffles me about manuevers like this is the question of who, precisely, they are meant to benefit. If the author thinks that the story is good, surely it's good whatever the score is. If the author thinks that the story is weak, isn't it rather confessing it to seek to artificially prop the score? I can't quite work out what this sort of thing is meant to accomplish. What's an 'H' worth if you know you had to fiddle the voting to get it?

Shanglan

I agree there is no satisfaction in something if one had to cheat or fiddle to get it. But we all know that bombing with low scores does happen unjustifiably. Turning off the voting prevents that happening. It doesn't mean the H was fiddled in the first place. It was probably achieved perfectly fairly. It is very tempting to lock it in place. I have been tempted myself. Certainly, it's possible that scores may flit back and forth between, say, 4.2 and 4.7. Locking it the moment it goes back to 4.5 is, perhaps, keeping it falsely. But people have noticed dropping scores for what appear to be vindictive reasons and I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to keep that badge of honour. Why?
Horsey...you and some others are highly thought of in these forums, and justifiably so. But there are plenty of good writers here that don't even come to the forums. Most readers do not give feedback. Some vote. For most writers here, the scores are the only thing we have to massage our egos. Is it so bad to want that?

 

[minsue]

For most writers here, the scores are the only thing we have to massage our egos. Is it so bad to want that?

But do you want an ego massage or an honest reflection of what the readers think of your story? I voted much more often before I came to the boards and much more honestly. After I started coming to the AH, I stopped most of my voting because now I knew these people and I didn't want to hurt any feelings, even anon. But part of me feels bad about that because it's not fair to those stories that do deserve a 5. Not when it's become the expected vote and all others are treated as an offense.

Really, what's the point of the lil red Hs when they seem so easy to get simply by being active on the boards? Case in point, I've got Hs all the way down the line. Not because my poetry is great, but because friends are kind and I'm not ashamed to ask people here to read and vote. There are amazing poets here who only get one or two votes on a piece. That's a terrible shame, but expected I suppose on a porn site. Do my silly lil Hs mean my work is better, not on your life. Not even close.

Personally, I'd much prefer real and honest votes over an ego massage. I've gotten low votes, but I've only been "trolled" twice both times being when someone hit every single poem with a 1 all at once after a disagreement on the threads. As far as I'm concerned, all other low votes were simply honest votes and, while it may hurt sometimes because what I post is usually very close to my heart, I appreciate the honesty.

 

[Boratus]

I agree there is no satisfaction in something if one had to cheat or fiddle to get it. But we all know that bombing with low scores does happen unjustifiably. Turning off the voting prevents that happening. It doesn't mean the H was fiddled in the first place. It was probably achieved perfectly fairly. It is very tempting to lock it in place. I have been tempted myself. Certainly, it's possible that scores may flit back and forth between, say, 4.2 and 4.7. Locking it the moment it goes back to 4.5 is, perhaps, keeping it falsely. But people have noticed dropping scores for what appear to be vindictive reasons and I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to keep that badge of honour. Why?
Horsey...you and some others are highly thought of in these forums, and justifiably so. But there are plenty of good writers here that don't even come to the forums. Most readers do not give feedback. Some vote. For most writers here, the scores are the only thing we have to massage our egos. Is it so bad to want that?

No, but I think that if someone locks their score then they shouldn't appear in the top lists because you can easily claim top spots with minimal votes.

 

[minsue]

No, but I think that if someone locks their score then they shouldn't appear in the top lists because you can easily claim top spots with minimal votes.

Oh, I can certainly agree with that. I think once votes are turned off, any Hs should be removed as well. Ya shouldn't be able to win if'n ya don't play.

 

[elsol]

*burp*

Without trolls, we'd have no excuse for our scores being that low.

I could have a 4.99 after 1000 votes and I'd still think... 4.99!!! Who gave me a four! What could I have done to have gotten that five from that numb-nutt! 4.99!!!

The trolls make it easier... if the scores don't agree with my perception of the stories...

BAH! Fucking Trolls!

See, they provide a service to us.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[cantdog]

Actually, you can't "lock in" a score. If you turn off voting, you turn off the H as well. The system was specifically designed to prevent people "locking in" a score.

Other then that, it was a wonderful exchange of ideas...

 

[Whisky7up]

But do you want an ego massage or an honest reflection of what the readers think of your story?

Really, what's the point of the lil red Hs when they seem so easy to get simply by being active on the boards?

But that is the point I made isn't it? Most writers aren't on the forums and most readers don't make comments. Some will vote. So, for most writers, the scores are the nearest thing to a guide on what people thought.

As for turning off votes....aren't they then excluded from competitions? Also, I was talking of people who lock them at the 4.5 level to keep the H. The last time I looked at top ranked stories, 4.5 doesn't get you there.

 

[cantdog]

I'm going to enter competitons and turn off voting. I think it'll be a lark.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Horsey...you and some others are highly thought of in these forums, and justifiably so. But there are plenty of good writers here that don't even come to the forums. Most readers do not give feedback. Some vote. For most writers here, the scores are the only thing we have to massage our egos. Is it so bad to want that?

Truly, Whiskey, I don't begrudge anyone comfort, reassurance, and encouragement. Honestly. Everyone needs it. But I do think that that's what the forums are for - or one's friends, relatives, and others whose goals in life are congruent with encouraging us and cheering us up and on. Those are fine and wonderful things. We all need them, and it's good to have them.

The votes, however, are also there to guide readers, to determine contest winners, and to provide ranking. Any real system for ranking is, to my thoughts, antithetical to the goal of simply encouraging people and bucking them up. After all, to rank in order from high to low places someone at the low end. However we vote, some will be higher, and some lower, and the lower will never feel especially good. It's not a good method for offering massages to egos, inherently and by its nature. Why try to make it do something it's not good at, especially when the process of forcing it to that goal robs of it any shreds of validity it might ever have had?

PC's are a good place for support and affection, I think. So is feedback. So is the AH, or any group of friends or fans who offer comments on what they liked best. And yes, that is absolutely vital to every author. Believe me, I do know this. I've been rescued by it myself. I just don't think that the voting system is the place for it. It's not what it's designed for, and it's really not what it's good at. Human contact is much better.

Shanglan


When my strangely wrought fancy conceived
A tale that could scare be achieved,
My struggle with doubt
Had broke me without
The gosling - the one who believed.

 

[cantdog]

I do the support and affection thing, the pure compliments on a job well done, on PCs where all the world can read 'em. If I have constructive criticism to offer instead of unmitigated praise, I take it to feedback, unless they have feedback turned off. At that point, I'll just do a PM. But there's no need to criticize in public, I figure.

If they're one of those people who resent criticism, then the exchange takes place off the public boards. But really, Shang, no one has ever reacted to my criticism in the way you describe, the way liar describes. Lashing out and bitching. Of course, I don't also vote them a three. I ONLY send criticism. Maybe that makes the difference? I don't know.

 

[Whisky7up]

Truly, Whiskey, I don't begrudge anyone comfort, reassurance, and encouragement. Honestly. Everyone needs it. But I do think that that's what the forums are for - or one's friends, relatives, and others whose goals in life are congruent with encouraging us and cheering us up and on. Those are fine and wonderful things. We all need them, and it's good to have them.

The votes, however, are also there to guide readers, to determine contest winners, and to provide ranking. Any real system for ranking is, to my thoughts, antithetical to the goal of simply encouraging people and bucking them up. After all, to rank in order from high to low places someone at the low end. However we vote, some will be higher, and some lower, and the lower will never feel especially good. It's not a good method for offering massages to egos, inherently and by its nature. Why try to make it do something it's not good at, especially when the process of forcing it to that goal robs of it any shreds of validity it might ever have had?

PC's are a good place for support and affection, I think. So is feedback. So is the AH, or any group of friends or fans who offer comments on what they liked best. And yes, that is absolutely vital to every author. Believe me, I do know this. I've been rescued by it myself. I just don't think that the voting system is the place for it. It's not what it's designed for, and it's really not what it's good at. Human contact is much better.

Shanglan

I understand what you say and I don't disagree. But I'm not one of the top writers so often discussed here.
I do encourage feedback, public or private, and I do get some, but not much. Only a small minority of those reading my stuff take the time to vote. But it's a lot more than make comments. It's the best guide I have. The few comments I do receive actually reflect my scores. So, while not ideal, it's all I have.

 

[Recidiva]

But do you want an ego massage or an honest reflection of what the readers think of your story? I voted much more often before I came to the boards and much more honestly. After I started coming to the AH, I stopped most of my voting because now I knew these people and I didn't want to hurt any feelings, even anon. But part of me feels bad about that because it's not fair to those stories that do deserve a 5. Not when it's become the expected vote and all others are treated as an offense.

Really, what's the point of the lil red Hs when they seem so easy to get simply by being active on the boards? Case in point, I've got Hs all the way down the line. Not because my poetry is great, but because friends are kind and I'm not ashamed to ask people here to read and vote. There are amazing poets here who only get one or two votes on a piece. That's a terrible shame, but expected I suppose on a porn site. Do my silly lil Hs mean my work is better, not on your life. Not even close.

Personally, I'd much prefer real and honest votes over an ego massage. I've gotten low votes, but I've only been "trolled" twice both times being when someone hit every single poem with a 1 all at once after a disagreement on the threads. As far as I'm concerned, all other low votes were simply honest votes and, while it may hurt sometimes because what I post is usually very close to my heart, I appreciate the honesty.

I'll take the ego massage. Please.

 

[Guest]

There is a difference between someone voting an honest to goodness 1 vote and someone and a few of their friends going through and tanking all of a person's stories....

Sadly it happens often enough...
Until there is some accountablity to the actual voting then people will continue to wander through and tear apart people's stories when they get a wild hair acrss their asses

I haven't done that..... the lowballing someone.... for any reason even if they made me want to kick their teeth down their throat.... heck I would even say sure... go ahead and show all the votes that I have given to anyone for any stories since I have been on Lit in Dec of 2003.....

I may not leave comments, but if I vote I don't have any problem at all standing by what I did vote

Always, E

 

[minsue]

When my strangely wrought fancy conceived
A tale that could scare be achieved,
My struggle with doubt
Had broke me without
The gosling - the one who believed.

 

[Boratus]

Shanglan

I understand what you say and I don't disagree. But I'm not one of the top writers so often discussed here.
I do encourage feedback, public or private, and I do get some, but not much. Only a small minority of those reading my stuff take the time to vote. But it's a lot more than make comments. It's the best guide I have. The few comments I do receive actually reflect my scores. So, while not ideal, it's all I have.

Yes, that's the general thing with feedback. More often than not I get comments like "I loved it!" and "keep writing more!" which, while being a great ego boost, doesn't tell Me why they liked the story or what part of it touched them (or made them touch themselves). It just reinforces the score. Sometime I prefer to get a bad message that complains that a character wouldn't have done what I made them do. Then I know they really got involved in the story and they're definitely not trolling. I'm more than happy to accept a low score from those people.

 

[elsol]

JIHAD ON TROLLS!!!

EXTERMINATE THE INFIDELS!!!

BLOOD ON THE STREETS!!!

BLOOD DOWN THE LAMPOSTS!!!

BLOOD!!!

BLOOD!!!

--- Ooooh, a vampire story that would be nice.


Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[elfin_odalisque]

You got 1s and 2s? I'm jealous.

Whatever you do, don't be an editor's choice.

Pisses people off royally.

Is it really that? Always thought that only the thoughtful pieces get an 'E'. Never saw any downside - perhaps I'm simple.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Shanglan

I understand what you say and I don't disagree. But I'm not one of the top writers so often discussed here.
I do encourage feedback, public or private, and I do get some, but not much. Only a small minority of those reading my stuff take the time to vote. But it's a lot more than make comments. It's the best guide I have. The few comments I do receive actually reflect my scores. So, while not ideal, it's all I have.

Talk to us more. I promise not to bite. And once I'm done with the Halloween entries, I promise to try to leave some feedback as well.

At one point there was a thread going (I believe I started it) for the echange of feedback and comments. The bargain was that each person added his/her name to the list and did a read/feedback/vote on the person above. It was good fun, and I enjoyed both the feedback and getting to know other writers. If you'd care to start another such thread, I'm sure that the response would be good; it's a nice way to get circulated.

Have you tried the SDC, by the way? It's for stories posted as well as those in development, and it's never dissapointed me with the quality and depth of feedback one gets.

Shanglan

 

[oggbashan]

...

Without trolls, we'd have no excuse for our scores being that low.

...Sincerely,
ElSol

I don't need excuses for my low scores.

I try different things. Sometimes I fail.

I challenge the definition of a story category. That annoys people.

I satirise fetishes. That annoys people.

I write erotica with implicit and NOT explicit sex. That annoys people.

Sometimes I forget to put any sex in and don't put the story in the Non-erotic category. That annoys people.

I make the readers wait for page after page before I get to the sex.

Why do I have any Hs?

Og

 

[Liar]

Why do I have any Hs?

Og

Beekoz ju rite guud?

 

[Recidiva]

Is it really that? Always thought that only the thoughtful pieces get an 'E'. Never saw any downside - perhaps I'm simple.

Well, this is of course a joke not directed toward the Editors, but toward the readers. For confirmation you can just check my comments. Lowest ever on an Editor's choice, with comments saying "Why did this get an E?" and "Who made this an editor's choice?"

 

[cantdog]

You'll have a thousand posts here, before you know it, Recidiva. Given it any thought?

 

[Recidiva]

You'll have a thousand posts here, before you know it, Recidiva. Given it any thought?

Some, but none of them fit so far.

I'll have to send all my thoughts to an editor.