Wives Loving Wives

[LargoKitt]

We do this. We each have things we can cook when in a hurry and signature dishes for the weekend. It’s nice to cook for someone and nice to be cooked for too. And we clean up our own kitchen messes.

However in one way we are uber-traditional, while I might cook on the BBQ, you need a man to do the fire stuff (or at least that’s what I let him think ). Boys and their toys .

These days girls got a lotta toys too. Finding ways to play together is the name of the game. (I mean I love those eyelash curlers.)

 

[EmilyMiller]

These days girls got a lotta toys too. Finding ways to play together is the name of the game. (I mean I love those eyelash curlers.)

Yeah this is my latest vibrator - look at all the sexy attachments

 

[Lifestyle66]

What utter bullshit.

Can you seriously not comprehend that not all women are the same? That maybe, just maybe it isn't "an act"?
That maybe that's genuinely who she is, and she is comfortable with herself.
You want to conform society to your own preferences and if other people fail at playing, "tough shit, you're a sissy. "


The whole problem with the philosophy you've espoused throughout this thread is that it proceeds from an assumption that the feminine way is correct and proper, and the masculine is flawed and bad. That we just need to force men to act like women and everything would be OK.

Men aren't broken women, boys aren't flawed girls.
You have this Lord of the Flies view of men, and male interactions that are nonsense.
Are you familiar with the actual incident? What really happened when a group of boys got shipwrecked on an island with no adults?
They did just fine. They built a functioning society, divided the work evenly, and worked together. When one of them broke his leg, the others pitched in to take up the slack.
Of course that doesn't fit the caricature of violent nasty boys who need controlling, so we don't talk about it much.

They can't comprehend WHY successful women don't help other weaker women like themselves "climb the ladder" of success.

Success requires a focused attitude of doing what needs to be done to get ahead. It takes personal sacrifice and single-minded focus on achieving your goal.

When running in a race, the winner must remain focused on crossing the finish line first. They can't be bothered by reaching out to drag the weak along with them.

My wife's attitudes were shaped by her childhood and all around her to look out for herself, and it's not an act or illusion. It's her fundamental personality! She readily tells me or anyone around her "I'm selfish! It's all about ME!" And that is what causes conflict in the minds of other nurturing women; They LIKE what my wife has and has achieved and her ability to enjoy life. But they cringe at the ruthless selfishness it took for her to get there.

They envy what she has and where she is in life, but not willing to take the personal risks it takes to get there. They don't like being judged as selfish.

EDIT: At the end of my story "The Maneater", she says:
"You may think I'm a scheming, selfish bitch, ... and you're damn right I am! I used to think I wanted to be like 'Barbie', that bitch has it all. But that was a little girl's fantasy. I see the world through my own shade of tinted glasses, and that real world made me who I am. ..."

 

[Kelliezgirl]

You just made my point beautifully. Men, and women can cover a range of behaviors from very assertive to remarkably submissive. Takes all kinds. Look at this website. What a marvelous range of sexuality. The problem isn't behaving tough or gently. The problem is judging people who behave differently. I certainly don't put down strong virile women. But if they, or men act like others are lesser because they are different, then we have a problem.

But you absolutely have been putting down strong women, and anyone else who doesn't conform to your wishes. You've claimed people who don't act the way you think they should are fake, just acting. You've claimed men who don't act the way you think they should are bad and need to change to accommodate your own views of how things should be.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I hadn't realized this thread had got so 'fun' so have been binge reading from page one. Difficult to know where to jump in but one line stood out to me...

Neither of the men I have had long-term relationships with are going to win any awards for their appearance.

Can you imagine the kick back I'd get if I dreamed to say this about my wife...

(I wouldnt because I dont believe it to be true except in the literal sense that she's never won Miss World)

 

[Lifestyle66]

I hadn't realized this thread had got so 'fun' so have been binge reading from page one. Difficult to know where to jump in but one line stood out to me...


Can you imagine the kick back I'd get if I dreamed to say this about my wife...

(I wouldnt because I dont believe it to be true except in the literal sense that she's never won Miss World)

Careful there! That's sounding like the toxic masculinity of the patriarchy placing appearance before substance.

 

[Lifestyle66]

You've claimed people who don't act the way you think they should are fake, just acting.

There are those who believe it's an obvious FACT that surely EVERYBODY must see that they are right. And if you disagree with them, then surely you MUST be acting or pretending that they are wrong, because you must really KNOW they are right!!!

The level of narcissism that attitude requires must take a lot of twisting in the wind to spin things like that.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There are those who believe it's an obvious FACT that surely EVERYBODY must see that they are right. And if you disagree with them, then surely you MUST be acting or pretending that they are wrong, because you must really KNOW they are right!!!

The level of narcissism that attitude requires must take a lot of twisting in the wind to spin things like that.

You're right, it's an insane level of narcissism.
It also shows up in their cries about these supposed double standards. The whole "women are damned if they do and dammed if they don't" nonsense.
What they don't want to recognize is that leadership is hard.
Women can absolutely be successful assertive leaders.
Guess what? If they push to far, they will get called out for being a bitch.
But here's the thing, men who push that assertiveness to far... they get called out for being assholes, toxic, etc... that's how accountability works in the real world.

Great example from Star Wars, Admiral Holdo.
Utterly toxic leadership, terrible communication. If Admiral Ackbar had behaved the same way, I'd say the same thing. People don't hate the character because she was a strong woman. They hate her because she was a terrible leader. But modern feminism can't handle women being held accountable so any criticism must be rooted in misogyny or something. Makes their whole world neat and clean.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I hadn't realized this thread had got so 'fun' so have been binge reading from page one. Difficult to know where to jump in but one line stood out to me...


Can you imagine the kick back I'd get if I dreamed to say this about my wife...

(I wouldnt because I dont believe it to be true except in the literal sense that she's never won Miss World)

She was too busy to enter. Perfectly understandable. Priorities and all.

 

[Lifestyle66]

You're right, it's an insane level of narcissism.
It also shows up in their cries about these supposed double standards. The whole "women are damned if they do and dammed if they don't" nonsense.
What they don't want to recognize is that leadership is hard.
Women can absolutely be successful assertive leaders.
Guess what? If they push to far, they will get called out for being a bitch.
But here's the thing, men who push that assertiveness to far... they get called out for being assholes, toxic, etc... that's how accountability works in the real world.

Great example from Star Wars, Admiral Holdo.
Utterly toxic leadership, terrible communication. If Admiral Ackbar had behaved the same way, I'd say the same thing. People don't hate the character because she was a strong woman. They hate her because she was a terrible leader. But modern feminism can't handle women being held accountable so any criticism must be rooted in misogyny or something. Makes their whole world neat and clean.

Success at the top requires a ruthless selfish drive to WIN!

And that goes against the grain of those who have a nurturing nature, asking everyone to cooperate and get along. Boys in school in the past were taught to WANT to win competitions. If you didn't WIN, you were a LOSER!

It began in the 1980's when professional educators pushed their "expert" advice on new parenting methods that "every child is a winner, and everyone deserves a trophy!" That led to today's excess permissive environment where we have insane people roaming the streets, because "They DESERVE a chance!" and "You can't deny them THEIR RIGHTS!" Then when the insane do insane things, ... as I like to say: "Who didn't see THAT coming?"

It takes a true narcissist to spin the narrative and hide the root cause of the problem they created: Some people ARE the cause of their own problems! And we shouldn't protect them from the consequences. The more they are protected, the more consequences we all face later.

 

[liliput1]

Women often have a 'damned if you do' situation where they can't perform well in an environment unless they play the guy game, and when they do they get trashed for being a bitch. I think men may get the flip where they open up and are more vocal and emotional and simpatico and others, even women, go 'This guy makes me uncomfortable.'

I was hearing about the bitch/doormat problem from practically before I entered the workforce and it seems to be mostly true except for one important exception. If you are terrifyingly competent at your job, male, female, or other, you can show vulnerability and warmth. This typically goes along with (or leads to) leadership, because you’re leveraging it to make an entire team better. eg, “I have trouble with this, does anyone else? <heads nod> Okay then let’s change it.”

Edit to add: the book Good to Great suggests that we repeat a lot of patterns at mediocre companies that great ones eschew. Great ones look for problems to fix instead of just ignoring or exploiting them for personal gain.

 

[liliput1]

These days girls got a lotta toys too. Finding ways to play together is the name of the game. (I mean I love those eyelash curlers.)

These days girls have way more toys than boys, unless they’re into butt stuff. Oh wait you weren’t talking about sex.

 

[liliput1]

You're right, it's an insane level of narcissism.
It also shows up in their cries about these supposed double standards. The whole "women are damned if they do and dammed if they don't" nonsense.
What they don't want to recognize is that leadership is hard.
Women can absolutely be successful assertive leaders.
Guess what? If they push to far, they will get called out for being a bitch.
But here's the thing, men who push that assertiveness to far... they get called out for being assholes, toxic, etc... that's how accountability works in the real world.

Great example from Star Wars, Admiral Holdo.
Utterly toxic leadership, terrible communication. If Admiral Ackbar had behaved the same way, I'd say the same thing. People don't hate the character because she was a strong woman. They hate her because she was a terrible leader. But modern feminism can't handle women being held accountable so any criticism must be rooted in misogyny or something. Makes their whole world neat and clean.

Another: I love Kate Mulgrew, I couldn’t stand the writing on Star Trek Voyager. And in particular Janeway. She expressed her brilliant mind by undermining all of her officers telling them how to do their jobs. Kirk was a terrible human but a decent leader. Picard was good at both. Janeway just reminded me of my shittiest jobs and made me tense. I stopped in season 2 because I couldn’t take anymore. Also event horizons don’t have cracks, goddamnit. Fucking writers.

 

[njlauren]

They can't comprehend WHY successful women don't help other weaker women like themselves "climb the ladder" of success.

Success requires a focused attitude of doing what needs to be done to get ahead. It takes personal sacrifice and single-minded focus on achieving your goal.

When running in a race, the winner must remain focused on crossing the finish line first. They can't be bothered by reaching out to drag the weak along with them.

My wife's attitudes were shaped by her childhood and all around her to look out for herself, and it's not an act or illusion. It's her fundamental personality! She readily tells me or anyone around her "I'm selfish! It's all about ME!" And that is what causes conflict in the minds of other nurturing women; They LIKE what my wife has and has achieved and her ability to enjoy life. But they cringe at the ruthless selfishness it took for her to get there.

They envy what she has and where she is in life, but not willing to take the personal risks it takes to get there. They don't like being judged as selfish.

EDIT: At the end of my story "The Maneater", she says:
"You may think I'm a scheming, selfish bitch, ... and you're damn right I am! I used to think I wanted to be like 'Barbie', that bitch has it all. But that was a little girl's fantasy. I see the world through my own shade of tinted glasses, and that real world made me who I am. ..."

Funny you mention competition. In a running race it is a solo sport so that kind of ruthlessness is required, but that attitude in a team sport is not a winning way.

My son is a classical musician and if you want to talk about a difficult field, it in many ways is as hard or harder than becoming a professional athlete ( with nowhere near the rewards). The students have to have a drive there is no doubt and a thick skin, but someone who is ruthless like that may become technically a great musician but will fail miserably because most music, even soloists, is team based and no one wants to work with ppl like that.

And even in the corporate world it is recognized that selfish people are not necessarily the best employees, in the companies I worked at ( fortune 100 companies ,) they put a lot of emphasis on someone who would help others in the company, even if it wasn't their direct area, even if it meant sacrificing time for their own stuff.

Competition is fine,it has its place, but when it becomes the kind of competition where it also is about trying to sabotage rivals to win, that is not a good thing or where everything becomes a competition. You get a lot more done in life when you recognize the talents of others and realize they are an asset not a threat.

 

[njlauren]

I have an article in progress named "Real Men Don't Squat". It basically champions men who do share the household duties by offering a new paradigm: 'let him own the kitchen'. IOW, men who 'help around the house' are subject to their wives giving their efforts the 'white glove test'. She's The Boss Of The Kitchen. But if he does half the cooking, or cleaning, or laundry it's his kitchen, vacuum cleaner, detergent, too. He gets to have the pot lids where he doesn't have to stoop to get them. Maybe he likes the dishes arranged for convenience and not to show off the pretty stuff when company arrives. Dual jobs, housework and child raising means dual respect on everything and an absolute minimum of 'pulling rank'. Statistically, women are better drivers than men. Does she get to help choose the power tools? Brave new world.

Choosing the power tools would raise questions about her sexual identity *lol*. Seriously that is the way it should be. That doesn't mean everything should fall equally where everything is 50 50, I get cars serviced because I know a lot about cars and also the crap service stations pull,my wife likes to garden, I am more the person who does things like builds the drip water system, builds the raised beds and handles heavy stuff. I also pitch in with everything else , and my wife helps with things I am doing.

 

[njlauren]

Another: I love Kate Mulgrew, I couldn’t stand the writing on Star Trek Voyager. And in particular Janeway. She expressed her brilliant mind by undermining all of her officers telling them how to do their jobs. Kirk was a terrible human but a decent leader. Picard was good at both. Janeway just reminded me of my shittiest jobs and made me tense. I stopped in season 2 because I couldn’t take anymore. Also event horizons don’t have cracks, goddamnit. Fucking writers.

Picard failed as a man more than a few times. He censured Worf when he killed Duras who had killed Worf's mate. Captain woodenhead cited all these regulations, Kirk would have given worf a fist bump because he understood and they would get drunk on klingon ale.

 

[Stanfield2025]

They can't comprehend WHY successful women don't help other weaker women like themselves "climb the ladder" of success.

Success requires a focused attitude of doing what needs to be done to get ahead. It takes personal sacrifice and single-minded focus on achieving your goal.

When running in a race, the winner must remain focused on crossing the finish line first. They can't be bothered by reaching out to drag the weak along with them.

My wife's attitudes were shaped by her childhood and all around her to look out for herself, and it's not an act or illusion. It's her fundamental personality! She readily tells me or anyone around her "I'm selfish! It's all about ME!" And that is what causes conflict in the minds of other nurturing women; They LIKE what my wife has and has achieved and her ability to enjoy life. But they cringe at the ruthless selfishness it took for her to get there.

They envy what she has and where she is in life, but not willing to take the personal risks it takes to get there. They don't like being judged as selfish.

EDIT: At the end of my story "The Maneater", she says:
"You may think I'm a scheming, selfish bitch, ... and you're damn right I am! I used to think I wanted to be like 'Barbie', that bitch has it all. But that was a little girl's fantasy. I see the world through my own shade of tinted glasses, and that real world made me who I am. ..."

I'm sure plenty of ruthless gangsters and crimelords would agree with this way of thinking.

 

[liliput1]

Picard failed as a man more than a few times. He censured Worf when he killed Duras who had killed Worf's mate. Captain woodenhead cited all these regulations, Kirk would have given worf a fist bump because he understood and they would get drunk on klingon ale.

Fair. But I've long learned to get mad at the real writers not the fictional characters. That "guy" didn't kill the only character you liked, because neither the guy nor the character exist. The writers did that for ratings and now the show sucks for you. They actually exist and walk around sucking every day.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Funny you mention competition. In a running race it is a solo sport so that kind of ruthlessness is required, but that attitude in a team sport is not a winning way.

My son is a classical musician and if you want to talk about a difficult field, it in many ways is as hard or harder than becoming a professional athlete ( with nowhere near the rewards). The students have to have a drive there is no doubt and a thick skin, but someone who is ruthless like that may become technically a great musician but will fail miserably because most music, even soloists, is team based and no one wants to work with ppl like that.

And even in the corporate world it is recognized that selfish people are not necessarily the best employees, in the companies I worked at ( fortune 100 companies ,) they put a lot of emphasis on someone who would help others in the company, even if it wasn't their direct area, even if it meant sacrificing time for their own stuff.

Competition is fine,it has its place, but when it becomes the kind of competition where it also is about trying to sabotage rivals to win, that is not a good thing or where everything becomes a competition. You get a lot more done in life when you recognize the talents of others and realize they are an asset not a threat.

Who ever injected that "sabatoge" shit into the equation?

You are creating a strawman argument with that. I said strive to WIN, not cheat! But you're spinning around trying to justify your arguments.

Success comes from the ruthless drive to BE THE BEST and WIN. And you don't get there by dragging crap along behind you! That crap only slows you down.

My wife's attitude does NOT include destroying others because they're weak. Her attitude is that she's the best at what she does and she's got her eyes set on her goal. If you can't keep up (man or woman), then she'll just leave you behind. The weak will eventually fall to the side, but that's not her problem. She's out to win.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I'm sure plenty of ruthless gangsters and crimelords would agree with this way of thinking.

Exactly! That is WHY they are the LORDS of their world! It happens even in the socialist and communist worlds, where the ruthless get ahead by climbing over the bodies of those beneath them!

 

[Stanfield2025]

Success comes from the ruthless drive to BE THE BEST and WIN. And you don't get there by dragging crap along behind you! That crap only slows you down.

The most successful people I know have also helped those who weren't as talented as them... Apparently the "crap" didn't slow them down.

 

[Stanfield2025]

Exactly! That is WHY they are the LORDS of their world! It happens even in the socialist and communist worlds, where the ruthless get ahead by climbing over the bodies of those beneath them!

It's also why they're menaces to society. Their nihilistic way of thinking makes them dead inside. And with almost no exceptions, they don't remain the lords of their world for long. And when they fall, the world chews them up and spits them out.

 

[Lifestyle66]

It's also why they're menaces to society. Their nihilistic way of thinking makes them dead inside. And with almost no exceptions, they don't remain the lords of their world for long. And when they fall, the world chews them up and spits them out.

The world chews up and spits out everyone who falls!

That's the trick to staying at the top: Don't fail!

 

[Stanfield2025]

The world chews up and spits out everyone who falls!

That's the trick to staying at the top: Don't fail!

Or, just don't play that bullshit game in the first place and cooperate with others like tons of successful people do. Plenty of ex-gangsters and ex-cons have said the same. You can't lose if you don't play. Tons of people are successful without having to be ruthless or cutthroat.

In nursing for example, anyone who comes in with that "everybody for themselves" attitude would quickly find themselves alone while the others who don't share that view would get the benefit of collaboration, partnership, etc. They'd find themselves making money hand over fist with people in their corner.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Or, just don't play that bullshit game in the first place and cooperate with others like tons of successful people do. Plenty of ex-gangsters and ex-cons have said the same. Tons of people are successful without having to be ruthless or cutthroat.

Again, you conflate things like sabotage or bullshit games as a strawman argument to spin into the self-deception of justifying your own weakness.

Successful people strive to win!

Those who lack that will to win, to achieve the goal, are not worth promoting! I would NEVER assign a person as a project manager to lead a team if that person had NO ambition to achieve the goal of the project! No successful leader picks losers to lead!

If I'm forming a team, I want players who are there to WIN with me! They don't need to cheat to win. They just can't feel sorry that someone else is going to lose!

And again, you throw in the "everybody for themselves" spin to twist your ignorant argument.

WINNERS don't have to be loners. TEAMS require groups of WINNERS, working together to be the best! When you have a weak player on the team, get rid of them and find a better team player, if you want your team to win! And if you don't care if your team wins, then I don't want to be on your team!