2009 Survivor Poetry Challenge: Workshop

[LadynStFreknBed]

Anyone got feedback for my Tanka for "Zero-Gravity Tea Ceremony"?
I just had to pick a Japanese form for that.. I mean, that trigger is begging for it.

Zero-Gravity Tea Ceremony

Supernova bows
as Jupiter sits seiza.
Starry chabana
For one brief moment we share
the everlasting chaji.


One thing I wasn't sure about is that seiza may rhyme with chabana.. I'd have to ask my daughter. Her Japanese is better than mine. And if it does, are rhymes in Tanka forbidden or just that it should not have a rhyme pattern?

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

Thank you for the feedback, Anna. Iambic pentameter is not my friend, though it seems we may be by the end of the year.

Perhaps, someone has some suggestions for smoothing some rough iambs..

I am not a sonnet poet, but this is a good opportunity to learn.... by going through the rules with someone elses poem

I took the RULES post and broke it down into parts to make sure all requirements were followed.

1. 14 lines
2. traditionally written in iambic pentameter confused:Not so sure about this, although the Cinquain above I thought was off meter but then again not?)
3. two quatrains and two tercets
4. following a rhyme scheme of abba abba cde cde, abba abba cdc cdc, or abba abba cde dcd.
5. The two quatrains, typically, describe a problem, which is resolved in the two tercets.
6. The 9th line creates a turn (volta) that signals the move from proposition to resolution. I think so...
7. The final line of the final tercet is called golden key, closing and giving meaning to the entire poem. Again, I think so yes!

First attempt, damn good. Thank you for the lesson!

 

[NorthernPA4U]

Anyone got feedback for my Tanka for "Zero-Gravity Tea Ceremony"?
I just had to pick a Japanese form for that.. I mean, that trigger is begging for it.

Zero-Gravity Tea Ceremony

Supernova bows
as Jupiter sits seiza.
Starry chabana
For one brief moment we share
the everlasting chaji.


One thing I wasn't sure about is that seiza may rhyme with chabana.. I'd have to ask my daughter. Her Japanese is better than mine. And if it does, are rhymes in Tanka forbidden or just that it should not have a rhyme pattern?

I could ask my daughter as well, but I've been looking for information on the Tanka myself, and I don't see why one rhyme would necessarily be a problem. OK, now having read "Tanka, as with all Japanese poetry, does not, and moreover should not, rhyme. Rhyme is considered a defect in Japanese poetry, in part because there is nearly a 1 in 5 chance that any two lines will rhyme purely by accident. Thus, rhyme is to be avoided" at http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=617052. I will change my mind, and say it should NOT rhyme. But I don't know if it does.

Personally, I like what you have done here. And, not being exceptionally familiar with the form before, I'd say good ... but I also have to say in all honesty that I am less likely to question someone's efforts than my own, and I would wonder if the final line fit the described pattern in my own effort. It would drive me nuts, even though I have read that real Tanka experts don't pay attention to the length requirements in English.

My take on it, with the message you have given? I really like it as it is.


As for the Italian sonnet, only two of the lines are true iambic pentameter as far as the stress pattern goes, but the form description says "traditionally" which, hmm, does that mean it's required? I don't know, I don't know if I even what I think about that. Certainly there are 10 syllables per line. It would be hard to turn it into all or mostly iambic pentameter with just a handful of minor suggestions.

If the iambic pentameter "tradition" is not considered a requirement, I like it very much.

I guess I would defer on this to the "rules committee" myself

 

[NorthernPA4U]

My first double dactyl
scared to submit it, but I don't think I forgot anything???

Hi-diddley Ho-diddley
Itchy and Scratchy with
Violence and comedy
bring the house down.

Anthropomorphically
Show up ‘most weekly with
Pillow-gut, cynical
Krusty the Clown.

I love this! And it certainly fits the form.

Though one question: I'm not sure the third line is a double dactyl ... you could replace "violence and" with "violent" to be more technically correct, I think, but it may not achieve what you want. Plus, Violence can be read quickly as a two-syllable word, and ... hell, I beat myself up on these things all the time for my OWN stuff ... I like the rhythm better the way you phrased it, but I'm not sure if the third line technically meets the challenge.

I'd go for your wording, myself ... I'm just offering an alternative, and a possible point of view.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Oh blow it unless Lauren comes in and says no no it's no good Annie I'm going for it but does this work punctuation wise oh and does 'yesterdays' have an apostrophe?
eeekkkkkk bugga i just realised the double acrostic went to pot when I changed memory to memories aghhhhhhhh back to the drawing board
Refine
Hold and then stem
Yesterdays Memories,
Murmur as if to speak will catch
Each ear.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

I could ask my daughter as well, but I've been looking for information on the Tanka myself, and I don't see why one rhyme would necessarily be a problem. OK, now having read "Tanka, as with all Japanese poetry, does not, and moreover should not, rhyme. Rhyme is considered a defect in Japanese poetry, in part because there is nearly a 1 in 5 chance that any two lines will rhyme purely by accident. Thus, rhyme is to be avoided" at http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=617052. I will change my mind, and say it should NOT rhyme. But I don't know if it does.

Personally, I like what you have done here. And, not being exceptionally familiar with the form before, I'd say good ... but I also have to say in all honesty that I am less likely to question someone's efforts than my own, and I would wonder if the final line fit the described pattern in my own effort. It would drive me nuts, even though I have read that real Tanka experts don't pay attention to the length requirements in English.

My take on it, with the message you have given? I really like it as it is.

Thank you. I was thinking about it more last night and I think I'm going to change "starry chabana" to "chabana of lights." I like that better. And even if "seiza" and "chabana" don't rhyme in Japanese, it rhymes for English pronunciation. I don't like that.

 

[annaswirls]

I love this! And it certainly fits the form.

Though one question: I'm not sure the third line is a double dactyl ... you could replace "violence and" with "violent" to be more technically correct, I think, but it may not achieve what you want. Plus, Violence can be read quickly as a two-syllable word, and ... hell, I beat myself up on these things all the time for my OWN stuff ... I like the rhythm better the way you phrased it, but I'm not sure if the third line technically meets the challenge.

I'd go for your wording, myself ... I'm just offering an alternative, and a possible point of view.

Thanks for the compliment and encouragement. I had a lot of fun writing this one!

I thought the stresses on the "violence and comedy" were like this:
violence and | comedy

with the "and" being the second non-stressed syllable? Doesn't that work?

 

[NorthernPA4U]

Thanks for the compliment and encouragement. I had a lot of fun writing this one!

I thought the stresses on the "violence and comedy" were like this:
violence and | comedy

with the "and" being the second non-stressed syllable? Doesn't that work?

If you read violence as having one unstressed syllable (vi'-lence), it would ... "vi'-o-lence and com'-e-dy" it wouldn't.

I'm not sure I would worry about it that much. I like the way yours sounds in my head.

 

[annaswirls]

If you read violence as having one unstressed syllable (vi'-lence), it would ... "vi'-o-lence and com'-e-dy" it wouldn't.

I'm not sure I would worry about it that much. I like the way yours sounds in my head.

I use two syllables for violence. Not worried-- thank you for taking the time with my silly crusty poem

 

[NorthernPA4U]

OK, I am not a haiku expert by any means.

I know that much of it is about capturing a snapshot in Nature, without providing commentary. I don't see a lot of possibilities of that in these triggers.

I am looking for feedback on this one, with trigger 41 (my backyard actually is a 12 acre pasture, with deer who live along the hedgerow all year long):


white tails on alert
silent meadow, snowdrift plumes
babies' ears alert

What is the good and the bad of this? I am trying to capture the scene of several deer just when they hear a noise on the neighboring hillside. I've seen it enough; I have the picture in my head ... it's just the haiku part giving me problems

The things a person might notice ... the moonlight; the snow drifts; nostrils flaring; completely rigid, except for the ears; and then the white tails pointed high ...

Eh ... I need to think about this a lot more, and reduce ...

I thought of "twenty nostrils flare" ... I suppose a good haikuist would leave out the "twenty," yes? How do you depict the herd without an indication of quantity somewhere? White tails are a herd behavior. argghhhh!!!

Being minimal is hard.

Forgive my rambling, please... but any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[loganforester]

Need Haiku help

Does this qualify?


Nile crocodile
A frog hops away-
the chase begins.


This is my first ever Haiku, so some help would be appreciated.

 

[NorthernPA4U]

Does this qualify?


Nile crocodile
A frog hops away-
the chase begins.


This is my first ever Haiku, so some help would be appreciated.

I am NOT an expert, and have been struggling with this myself, reading a lot of the haiku attempts on this site, and critiques of those attempts by those who know more.

I think it is good for a first attempt. I am struggling myself with my first attempt. I do know that haiku should be an attempt to capture a single moment in time, in a minimal way. As I understand it, movement is captured in the moment, not described, so I am not sure the idea of a chase fits in a haiku, but I will leave a better analysis to those more knowledgeable than me.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=124093 is a good place to start. From that location, comes this:

"Moment -- The haiku is by definition a short poem. As I mention above, your job as haikuist is to record an image or event. Another word for image or event is moment. The haiku artist searches out the haiku moment, which is merely something he/she sees that is interesting, surprising or beautiful. But it is not the evening sunset where the sky fades from bright red, to a shadowy magenta. The haiku moment is the instant a bird makes a silhouette against the sky, or the instant a specific ray of sunlight touches a cloud and it explodes in color, or the moment the sun disappears."

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

white tails on alert
silent meadow, snowdrift plumes
babies' ears alert

What is the good and the bad of this? I am trying to capture the scene of several deer just when they hear a noise on the neighboring hillside. I've seen it enough; I have the picture in my head ... it's just the haiku part giving me problems

The things a person might notice ... the moonlight; the snow drifts; nostrils flaring; completely rigid, except for the ears; and then the white tails pointed high ...

Eh ... I need to think about this a lot more, and reduce ...

First of all, I'm hatin' you for having 12 acres in northern PA. My parents live nearby and I watch the deer there sometimes. Such an improvement over my small, fenced yard in town.

I really like the first two lines. The thing that sticks out to me right away is the two lines ending in "alert." I like the rest of it, but using the word twice like that gives the impression that you ran out of things to say. Just in my opinion...
and, you obviously have a lot of varied things to say about such a scene.

Does this qualify?


Nile crocodile
A frog hops away-
the chase begins.


This is my first ever Haiku, so some help would be appreciated.

I would echo NorthernPA4U's concern over the word "chase."

When writing haiku, it helps me to imagine myself holding a camera and taking one photo-- just one. Obviously, one picture can capture an action. But without watching for extended period, would you know there is a chase? The frog may not escape the crocodile's glare... or something that may potentially lead to a chase, but leaves that open and unmentioned because your only concern is what happens in that moment. You know what I mean?

But, I feel the need to repeat this disclaimer-
*I am not a haiku expert.*

The example that Lauren gave for haiku, a commonly quoted haiku indeed, includes a frog jumping and the sound of the water. So, it's not like it has to be as strictly instantaneous as one photo. (I don't think.) That's just a tool that I use to help me.

 

[loganforester]

I am NOT an expert, and have been struggling with this myself, reading a lot of the haiku attempts on this site, and critiques of those attempts by those who know more.

I think it is good for a first attempt. I am struggling myself with my first attempt. I do know that haiku should be an attempt to capture a single moment in time, in a minimal way. As I understand it, movement is captured in the moment, not described, so I am not sure the idea of a chase fits in a haiku, but I will leave a better analysis to those more knowledgeable than me.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=124093 is a good place to start. From that location, comes this:

"Moment -- The haiku is by definition a short poem. As I mention above, your job as haikuist is to record an image or event. Another word for image or event is moment. The haiku artist searches out the haiku moment, which is merely something he/she sees that is interesting, surprising or beautiful. But it is not the evening sunset where the sky fades from bright red, to a shadowy magenta. The haiku moment is the instant a bird makes a silhouette against the sky, or the instant a specific ray of sunlight touches a cloud and it explodes in color, or the moment the sun disappears."

Thanks for the quick response. I was concerned about that myself and plan to fix it. It's a very unique form with specific rules that hinge on every word. I enjoy the challenge.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Do you think that this poems meets the criteria for "shopping for cereal"? I mention the shelves of the crap but I don't specifically mention "shopping for it". Close enough? (and yeah, I guess I have just a tiny little bias against cereal!)

Snap, crack, pop.
sound of fat crisping on a fire
of glucose enhanced logs
made from our children

colored bowls of tasty toxins
fruity poison Pebble Puffs
served up by harried moms to
future hyperglycemics

multi-colored rows of sugary greed
Merrily perched at child eye level
Like smiling Captains and Toucans
patiently awaiting their prey

sweet death courtesy of
Kellogg’s of Battlecreek


Trigger 37 (poem about shopping for breakfast cereals.) / Poet's Choice

 

[loganforester]

I think we're all going to learn alot about different forms through this challenge, that's why I entered. Thaks for your feedback and tried to make some changes. How does this work?

Nile crocodile
eyes above water-
A frog hops away.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Refine,
Hold and then stem
Yesterday's Memory,
Murmur as if to speak will catch
Each ear.

Is this punctuated correctly please? quite frankly I've had enough of it .... the time has come for it to leave home and make it's own way in the world

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I think of the triggers as inspiration. They are in some way an irritant—one cannot write to just the themes one wants—but, I think (and hope) there is considerable flexibility in what a particular poet is triggered to write about.

They're simply some kind of inspiration, in other words.

That's what they're supposed to be. Don't fret too much about them, people. I can definitely see the trigger being the jump-start for Safe_Bet's Kellogg's poem, and NorthernPA's baby pictures' poem too.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Do you think that this poems meets the criteria for "shopping for cereal"? I mention the shelves of the crap but I don't specifically mention "shopping for it". Close enough? (and yeah, I guess I have just a tiny little bias against cereal!)

Snap, crack, pop.
sound of fat crisping on a fire
of glucose enhanced logs
made from our children

colored bowls of tasty toxins
fruity poison Pebble Puffs
served up by harried moms to
future hyperglycemics

multi-colored rows of sugary greed
Merrily perched at child eye level
Like smiling Captains and Toucans
patiently await their prey

sweet death courtesy of
Kellogg’s of Battlecreek


Trigger 37 (poem about shopping for breakfast cereals.) / Poet's Choice

What are Toucans is that some sort of cereal over there? I only ask because in the normal way toucans don't prey on anything except maybe grapes

 

[Lauren Hynde]

My first double dactyl
scared to submit it, but I don't think I forgot anything???

Hi-diddley | Ho-diddley
Itchy and | Scratchy with
Violence and | comedy
bring the house down.

Anthropo|morphically
Show up 'most | weekly with
Pillow-gut, | cynical
Krusty the Clown.

That's a perfect one, if you read violence as vi'-le-nce and anthropomorphically as an-thro-po-mor-phi-c'lly - which you could.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I think we're all going to learn alot about different forms through this challenge, that's why I entered. Thaks for your feedback and tried to make some changes. How does this work?

Nile crocodile
eyes above water-
A frog hops away.

I think that's a huge improvement over the first attempt.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Refine,
Hold and then stem
Yesterday's Memory,
Murmur as if to speak will catch
Each ear.

Is this punctuated correctly please? quite frankly I've had enough of it .... the time has come for it to leave home and make it's own way in the world

I would be tempted to punctuate it like this:

Refine,
hold, and then stem
Yesterday's Memory.
Murmur as if to speak will catch
each ear.

 

[NorthernPA4U]

First of all, I'm hatin' you for having 12 acres in northern PA. My parents live nearby and I watch the deer there sometimes. Such an improvement over my small, fenced yard in town.

I really like the first two lines. The thing that sticks out to me right away is the two lines ending in "alert." I like the rest of it, but using the word twice like that gives the impression that you ran out of things to say. Just in my opinion...
and, you obviously have a lot of varied things to say about such a scene.

Well D'OH!!!

You got to see a post in between two edits, and I didn't even realize that I had left it like that. I've tried a number of combinations, and guess I didn't even re-read that one.

I agree, I would never want to do the "alert" thing twice.

I can't get the wording quite right to portray this snapshot of a herd of deer just poised to spring at a moment's notice, or right at that very first leap, one white tail, or a second later, 10-12 white tails ...

It's not even hard to visualize the moment at the start. They are statues for a few seconds. They come right up to my driveway, 20 feet from the window from which I look over them. In the summer, if I keep my basement office window closed, they will come to eat the grass within 15 feet of where I am working (they like the freshly cut stuff much better than the grass in the field). I was mowing in the field once this past year, and got within five feet of a baby before it got up to move elsewhere. And in the winter, they come looking in the lived in areas looking for small shoots to nibble on, because the snow isn't as deep around the house.

The acreage is nice, but the deer, while fun to watch, are not always a blessing -- they strip my trees any time I try to plant new ones. Plus, it was so funny to see the horses and the deer in the same pasture together... both are naturally skittish animals, and sometimes I worried about the horses taking off quite like they did (at least until they adjusted to each other). Then, during hunting season, you get an occasional moron who comes around shooting in the direction of house. Idiots!

 

[NorthernPA4U]

Do you think that this poems meets the criteria for "shopping for cereal"? I mention the shelves of the crap but I don't specifically mention "shopping for it". Close enough? (and yeah, I guess I have just a tiny little bias against cereal!)

If you want that bias to come across, you my try expressing it a little more explicitly in your poem.

 

[NorthernPA4U]

So, how about:

moonlit nostrils flare
silent meadows, snowdrift plumes
cervine tails erect

or would

cervine tails in white

be a better line?