Ambition

[Liar]

You attack some one's poem with an ill comment and I say something encouraging to them, some one's thread is hijacked and several poets converge to rally words against them. I try to help them by taking the heat off them and I am your bad guy <bigrin

Ambitious. But so is pushing an elephant up a hill.

Ambition without meta reflection on one's actions and perspective is not only stupid, it can be dangerous.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Ambitious. But so is pushing an elephant up a hill.

Ambition without meta reflection on one's actions and perspective is not only stupid, it can be dangerous.

I think there are easier ways to get an elephant up a hill other than pushing him. (~_*)

 

[Liar]

I think there are easier ways to get an elephant up a hill other than pushing him. (~_*)

Depends on how many martinis the elephant have had.

Or maybe you should ask yourself, why am I trying to get an elephant up a hill?

 

[Decayed Angel]

You attack some one's poem with an ill comment and I say something encouraging to them, some one's thread is hijacked and several poets converge to rally words against them. I try to help them by taking the heat off them and I am your bad guy <bigrin


What name did you submit your story under? What is its title?

Art, I was merely appreciating the irony here, as I am sure others here do.

Art, you know very well that I have never attacked anyone's poem with an ill comment. If I had you would have shown it to me the numerous other times you accused me of dumping on people's poems and I asked to you substanciate your accusation.

As you know Art, even at my most critical, I have been positive in my recommendations and offered advice and encouragement in my comments.

The story I speak of was posted here in the forum. You missed the point then just as you do now.

 

[Decayed Angel]

Or maybe you should ask yourself, why am I trying to get an elephant up a hill?

You know Liar. I have to wonder the same thing about myself here. You know, in the Haruki Murakami short story, the elephant simply vanished. Wow, that would be so much nicer. In his own way Murakami is truly poetic in his prose.

 

[Tzara]

...You attack some one's poem with an ill comment and I say something encouraging to them, some one's thread is hijacked and several poets converge to rally words against them. I try to help them by taking the heat off them and I am your bad guy...

Part of the problem with your argument, Art, is that "ill comment" are not always bad. In fact, in my experience, "ill comment" are generally, in fact, good. They are the only ones that are useful, as (however emotionally satisfying it might be) someone telling me that my poem is "great" doesn't tell me anything other than that they liked it. Or like me.

That's perfectly OK, of course. I certainly don't want to encourage my "vast horde of admirers" to temper their comments. But, the best comments I have ever received on my attempts at poetry have been from people whose opinions I respect telling me that something I wrote sucked. Or had problems. In my experience, they have always been quite specific as to where the problem area is and have always talked about why they felt the phrasing was poor. That I don't always believe them (they are usually right) is my own affair.

I think you are failing to distinguish between trolls (who enjoy trashing everything) and people who are trying to comment honestly.

And frankly, if some are so upset by someone telling them that their work isn't very good that they run away and hide, then perhaps they aren't ready to present their work in a public forum. "Public" means people can and will comment.

We don't--this should be obvious--all like the same thing.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Part of the problem with your argument, Art, is that "ill comment" are not always bad. In fact, in my experience, "ill comment" are generally, in fact, good. They are the only ones that are useful, as (however emotionally satisfying it might be) someone telling me that my poem is "great" doesn't tell me anything other than that they liked it. Or like me.

That's perfectly OK, of course. I certainly don't want to encourage my "vast horde of admirers" to temper their comments. But, the best comments I have ever received on my attempts at poetry have been from people whose opinions I respect telling me that something I wrote sucked. Or had problems. In my experience, they have always been quite specific as to where the problem area is and have always talked about why they felt the phrasing was poor. That I don't always believe them (they are usually right) is my own affair.

I think you are failing to distinguish between trolls (who enjoy trashing everything) and people who are trying to comment honestly.

And frankly, if some are so upset by someone telling them that their work isn't very good that they run away and hide, then perhaps they aren't ready to present their work in a public forum. "Public" means people can and will comment.

We don't--this should be obvious--all like the same thing.

Well, lets not confuse constructive comments with 'ill' comments, here is an example of what I would call 'ill' comments...

IT.....
05/21/06 by Anonymous in Tel Aviv, Israel
SUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <My Anus>

the poem came out in march, and was selected as the 'Erotic Poem' for march by ratings, I recieved 10 comments and nine out of the ten enjoyed the poem, (I understand we can't please every one) but the comment was left recently, probably brought to some one's attention by the March readers choice thread. Reads a lot like other comments I get from the snail... <grin I suppose this is what your suggesting is a troll?

I think we all understand that new members are slightly timid or unsure of what to expect when submitting and many have toned down their need to tell others their gramatical errors. I think, and I may be wrong, but what your suggesting boils down to charactor traits. Some can not read a poem with out picking out the faults, others simply read for the pleasure of the literary voyage that the author embarked on and I am sure there are many other styles and charactors of reading, we all differ... I agree!

thanks Tazar (~_~)

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Art, I was merely appreciating the irony here, as I am sure others here do.

Art, you know very well that I have never attacked anyone's poem with an ill comment. If I had you would have shown it to me the numerous other times you accused me of dumping on people's poems and I asked to you substanciate your accusation.

As you know Art, even at my most critical, I have been positive in my recommendations and offered advice and encouragement in my comments.

The story I speak of was posted here in the forum. You missed the point then just as you do now.

I didn't miss your point Jim, I just missed your... <bigrin

 

[RhymeFairy]

Ambition requires patience.
Sometimes patience is just not enough ...

 

[Tzara]

Well, lets not confuse constructive comments with 'ill' comments, here is an example of what I would call 'ill' comments...

IT.....
05/21/06 by Anonymous in Tel Aviv, Israel
SUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <My Anus>

the poem came out in march, and was selected as the 'Erotic Poem' for march by ratings, I recieved 10 comments and nine out of the ten enjoyed the poem, (I understand we can't please every one) but the comment was left recently, probably brought to some one's attention by the March readers choice thread.

We almost completely agree about this, Art. This is a stupid comment. Certainly not helpful--though, I would admit, it is in line with the allowed comments. (Love it? Hate it? Have suggestions?) So it isn't like someone is evil if they make a comment like this--they're just unhelpful.

Whether someone was disposed to make a negative comment or a low vote because your poem had been scored well seems to me to be something not worth worrying about. It's gonna happen, regardless. Myself, I am more interested about what the people here whose opinion I respect think. Random commentators, if they like me, good, if they don't like me, well that's OK too.

Reads a lot like other comments I get from the snail... <grin I suppose this is what your suggesting is a troll?

No, not at all. MNS is usually quite specific when he comments on someone's poem. Now I would admit that may not be the case with you, as the two of you seem to have some kind of blood feud going. Get over it. It's boring to the rest of us. I was trained in psychology, specialization in animal behavior. My suggestion is, just ignore him (you also, MNS). The behavior will eventually cease. Its called "extinction".

Just ignore him. Please. It's really boring and irritating for the rest of us to read your arguments.

I think we all understand that new members are slightly timid or unsure of what to expect when submitting and many have toned down their need to tell others their gramatical errors. I think, and I may be wrong, but what your suggesting boils down to charactor traits. Some can not read a poem with out picking out the faults, others simply read for the pleasure of the literary voyage that the author embarked on and I am sure there are many other styles and charactors of reading, we all differ... I agree!

Someone who has placed a poem for public comment is asking for exactly that. It may be mild or harsh. I think most commentors are sensitive to how the commentee might react, but not all are. I'd quote the old homily "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" but that sounds more like you than me. My experience is that most commentors, MNS included, are making what should be interpreted as positive and suggestive comments. The comment you cited earlier was not. We agree that that was not helpful.

thanks Tazar (~_~)

Now here I am confused. Either you are so dyslexic (or dysgraphic) that you can't tell that you have misspelled my handle (though you have quoted it above) or you are being snotty in deliberately misspelling it here.

Do you really type so badly? Don't you proofread anything?

If you are truly so dyslexic as to confuse "Tzara" with "Tazar", my apologies to you. Even SOPT signs must be a problem for you, Tar.

 

[Decayed Angel]

I didn't miss your point Jim, I just missed your... <bigrin

Art, had you gotten the point you would not have had to ask which story I was talking about.

And you have not shown me any "Ill comments" that you accuse me of making about people's poetry, you haven't shown where I have attacked anyone in a comment.

There are a lot of gifted poets here who invest their time in helping other poets, with honest feedback and constructive suggestion. These are the people who are consistantly attacked. Consistantly attacked by a so called "peaceful warrior."

Your attacks are not the up front violence professed by the ignorant karate teacher, they are small accusations that are quickly dropped when you are asked to substantiate what you accuse someone of. You wait until the heat fades and then you slip in again, with accusations and innuendo, only to slip away without responding when you are asked to substantiate your claims.

Besides the violent approach, the ignorant, 'Gung-o' karate teacher teaches with a basic lack of understanding of the principles of karate, featuring the glitz of combat but completely missing the subtle differences between the defensive and offensive posture. The true injustice here is that the ignorant teacher passes along his slanted and incorrect viewpoint and information.

As you have professed time and time again, you do not consider yourself a gifted poet, you are just a poetry lover. And yet you ridicule and denounce many of the excellent poets here, because they offer honest commentary on poetry.

You are obviously a novice at zen and yet act like an expert spreading the word in your zen threads. Sure conversation and exploration through the forum is a way to learn, but why not let the grasshopper remain the grasshopper. Invite Tathagata or Liar to touch on the topic, approach zen as if you were searching, not as if you were defining it.

You have a haiku thread that has run for months with the same problems being repeated again and again. Wildsweetone was the only poet consistently writing haiku and it appeared the thread was undermining her understanding of the form. Sure the rollicking in the short poetry is often fun, but just as soon as Blue or Rhymefairy wrote a strong haiku, it was followed by someone else with some abstraction and they responded in kind. How many poets unfamiliar with haiku step in and think, wow, MET has created this thread, this must be haiku. Surely you understand that very little in that thread approaches the beautiful art of haiku.

Art, I have no doubt you are the skilled and masterful, "peaceful warrior" in karate. It is based upon your basic depth of knowledge and experience in the marshal arts. You teach based upon this depth of knowledge and experience.

But, when you come here and approach poetry, where you have admitted you don't have a great depth of knowledge and experience, acting as the skilled and masterful you misrepresent yourself. The people who know poetry here understand that, unfortunately it is the beginning poets who are drawn by gratitutious and often undeserved praise from you. You take them into your fold, convince them the honest comments from some of the gifted poets here are rude and jealous rants, insulating them from the knowledgable advice, recommendation and suggestion that will help them become stronger.

You see Art, while in karate, you are the "peaceful warrior", here you have been the 'Gung-o' instructor, not instructing violence, but propagating your own misunderstanding and lack of experience in poetry. Unfortunately, as the 'Gung-o' poet here you don't accept other's approaches to supporting poetry you attack it.

That is the point you missed, you continue to miss, or at least I assume you miss. Perhaps you got it all along and just enjoy undermining the poetry here, or perhaps it is a way of striking at what you may consider as intellectual elitism, becoming one of those people who can't support their position or point through discussion and debate and simply becomes such an incredible nusiance that people simply give up.

I'm sure you'll respond as you have again and again to me and many others and we will finally give up arguing with a nusiance. As you read the above, you will see I have not been rude to you, as I have never been rude to you in the past. I will ask that to cease accusing me of making "ill comments", attacking people in comments or in the forums, of low voting or any of the other things you have accused me of. Either that or substantiate your claims.

Ambition is one thing, ambition untempered by proper judgement, experience and knowledge is merely blind ambition...

The 'Gung-o' karate instructor was ambitious about karate, but you did not see it as good. He lacked the proper judgement, experience and knowledge.

Perhaps the 'Gung-o' poet can change his path, perhaps not. Whether he argues this point to the point of being a nusiance or whether he considers the karate instructor metaphor and takes it to heart will probably be a good indicator.

And you know... an apology for the false accusations might be refreshing too.

Jim : )

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Whether someone was disposed to make a negative comment or a low vote because your poem had been scored well seems to me to be something not worth worrying about. It's gonna happen, regardless. Myself, I am more interested about what the people here whose opinion I respect think. Random commentators, if they like me, good, if they don't like me, well that's OK too.

MNS is usually quite specific when he comments on someone's poem.

I think I see where your coming from.
“Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having to get the facts.”

Just ignore him. Please. It's really boring and irritating for the rest of us to read your arguments.

okay, Tar...

Most of the snail's and 1201's comments to me are on one or more of my threads and I did not know that you read my threads. I can apologize for him but that does not change the fact that he'll be back and you'll have to read the comments he leaves or the reply that I post. (~_~)

We almost completely agree about this, Art. This is a stupid comment. Certainly not helpful--though, I would admit, it is in line with the allowed comments. (Love it? Hate it? Have suggestions?) So it isn't like someone is evil if they make a comment like this--they're just unhelpful.

This comment was used as an example of 'ill' comment to help distinguish between criticism, and a bad/ ill comment.

Part of the problem with your argument, Art, is that "ill comment" are not always bad. In fact, in my experience, "ill comment" are generally, in fact, good. They are the only ones that are useful, as (however emotionally satisfying it might be) someone telling me that my poem is "great" doesn't tell me anything other than that they liked it. Or like me.

I had a hard time figuring this comment (Tel Aviv ) to be useful <grin I know what you mean or what your saying, anyway. I always enjoyed wicked's comments, they were never overly nice nor overly critical. But a great blend of short and sweet rather she liked it or not and always offered at least one suggestion. In a small way our comments are an extension of one's self in words. So they will all be different.

thank you Tzara

 

[My Erotic Trail]

...

And you have not shown me any "Ill comments" that you accuse me of making about people's poetry, you haven't shown where I have attacked anyone in a comment.

gEE Jim, let me see if I can remember the title of the poem or its author and go find it. The point was... why your here digging up bones.

There are a lot of gifted poets here who invest their time in helping other poets, with honest feedback and constructive suggestion. These are the people who are consistantly attacked. Consistantly attacked by a so called "peaceful warrior."

Your attacks are not the up front violence professed by the ignorant karate teacher, they are small accusations that are quickly dropped when you are asked to substantiate what you accuse someone of. You wait until the heat fades and then you slip in again, with accusations and innuendo, only to slip away without responding when you are asked to substantiate your claims.

what claims are you speaking of? Jim, I have never feared replying to any one... and almost always do so... I am a busy man but I believe I responded to all your posts, now if your refering to the snail or 1201, I quit argueing with him, you can tell a dog to stop barking over a loud speaker all you want but it won't help.

and when you speak of gifted poets... I'll never forget the comment made, "He is a really good poet so we accept his rudeness" (don't quote me on that but its pretty darn close... look on the pathetic thread if you want the full monty)

As you have professed time and time again, you do not consider yourself a gifted poet, you are just a poetry lover. And yet you ridicule and denounce many of the excellent poets here, because they offer honest commentary on poetry.

Jim, the only ones I have ridiculed or denounced are those who verbally attacked, harassed or downed another... I think we have been over this before... I recall eve asking why do I feel the need to defend other poets, remember...! I do not bury my head in the sand if I think some one is doing another wrong.

You are obviously a novice at zen and yet act like an expert spreading the word in your zen threads. Sure conversation and exploration through the forum is a way to learn, but why not let the grasshopper remain the grasshopper. Invite Tathagata or Liar to touch on the topic, approach zen as if you were searching, not as if you were defining it.

I know it is a long thread but I am certain at least two post were about my exploring the poetry of zen masters... that was the reason the thread was made and it has been a great teacher in itself from the words collected and the inspiration it has grown. It is not a closed thread. I believe you may have a post in there. but a beer drinking monkey and a liar... I don't see your point <grin

(no offense liar, I was just borrowing your name) (~_~)

You have a haiku thread that has run for months with the same problems being repeated again and again. Wildsweetone was the only poet consistently writing haiku and it appeared the thread was undermining her understanding of the form. Sure the rollicking in the short poetry is often fun, but just as soon as Blue or Rhymefairy wrote a strong haiku, it was followed by someone else with some abstraction and they responded in kind. How many poets unfamiliar with haiku step in and think, wow, MET has created this thread, this must be haiku. Surely you understand that very little in that thread approaches the beautiful art of haiku.

I don't recall the poets but I have recieved PMs from poets asking what Haiku was or its true form and I almost always suggest your "How tos"

but once again... read the beginning of the thread it speaks of the true Haiku and then speaks of the poems that will not follow original Haiku but are based on a three line poem without the syllable count or being restrained to just nature but emotions and thoughts as well. The River is my inspiration for these small poems.

Art, I have no doubt you are the skilled and masterful, "peaceful warrior" in karate. It is based upon your basic depth of knowledge and experience in the marshal arts. You teach based upon this depth of knowledge and experience.

But, when you come here and approach poetry, where you have admitted you don't have a great depth of knowledge and experience, acting as the skilled and masterful you misrepresent yourself. The people who know poetry here understand that, unfortunately it is the beginning poets who are drawn by gratuitous and often undeserved praise from you. You take them into your fold, convince them the honest comments from some of the gifted poets here are rude and jealous rants, insulating them from the knowledgeable advice, recommendation and suggestion that will help them become stronger.

Jim, I do not discourage poets to learn from other poets here. I do not know why you would think that... ask RF or Cherries on snow, she is new... or kittyspank, and I have never misrepresented myself as a master of poetry... but always express my limited knowledge in literature as you have stated in your comment. However, that does not detour me and many others from writing poetry and or learning. You know yourself I spend more time on stories but I think your wrong here in your view of how I convince perhaps the correct word should have been 'persuade' others.

You see Art, while in karate, you are the "peaceful warrior", here you have been the 'Gung-o' instructor, not instructing violence, but propagating your own misunderstanding and lack of experience in poetry. Unfortunately, as the 'Gung-o' poet here you don't accept other's approaches to supporting poetry you attack it.

That is the point you missed, you continue to miss, or at least I assume you miss. Perhaps you got it all along and just enjoy undermining the poetry here, or perhaps it is a way of striking at what you may consider as intellectual elitism, becoming one of those people who can't support their position or point through discussion and debate and simply becomes such an incredible nusiance that people simply give up.

the first paragraph shows me that you do not know me, perhaps that is part of the problem.

in the second
debate is the key word here Jim, I see several of these intellectual elitism (as you call them) argue and or simply differ over the structure of a poem or even its best line, that is what they enjoy doing... I don't stop them, I just choose not to disagree with them. But when one comments harshly on a poem am I not allowed to choose and say that I felt their comment was harsh? Perhaps pick up the pieces left of the poor poet and help them to understand why there are people like that in this forum? (critical critics)

I'm sure you'll respond as you have again and again to me and many others and we will finally give up arguing with a nusiance. As you read the above, you will see I have not been rude to you, as I have never been rude to you in the past. I will ask that to cease accusing me of making "ill comments", attacking people in comments or in the forums, of low voting or any of the other things you have accused me of. Either that or substantiate your claims.

I have Jim, you have stated openly your venue of voting you don't see a 2-3 as a low vote, I did and that is our difference. You want me to pull up all your comments on poems to find a 'Harsh' comment by you... for what? So that we can then again argue over what is considered harsh vs criticism. I will admit your not near as bad as some if that'll make you feel better. Although you did have your temper up with Elizabetht <bigrin, I don't think we need to pull up past arguments or apologize for our actions if we feel we are right but perhaps accept that we are on different paths.


Your ambitious grasp may pull you ahead of others but their thoughts of you will never be the same.

Ambition is one thing, ambition untempered by proper judgement, experience and knowledge is merely blind ambition...


And you know... an apology for the false accusations might be refreshing too.

Jim : )

actually Jim, I enjoy our conversations, I know it is not quite a Dr.'s couch but when you feel the need to vent, you know where to find me.


Jim, I have seen you, snail, rainman, anna and others, come to this thread nipping at my heels about various things. I am so curious what I am doing that disturbs y'all! I come here and frequent the same threads and stroll lit, read poetry and post some remarks and poetic ideas for future works or perhaps a spark that inspires another. I didn't get the Most Influencial Poet award for being the best poet lit has to offer. But many sent PMs saying they didn't know any of the poets but that I had comment on their poetry when they submitted it. I was one of the ones that was encouraging and inspirational while others claimed, "if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen' or... 'don't come here if your thin skinned'... I have met alot of friendly people here as well as met some that are not as friendly. I am not afraid to voice my opinion as you probably already know. In my opinion, I have done nothing but help others as others have helped me. I don't think we all have to be hard nosed to be a poet. I think poetry is an expression of one's thoughts and feelings... don't you. It takes another breed or need to be a critic. I do not feel a need to revise others poetry unless they ask me then I will give my honest opinion of the poem, from my point of view if I were to have written it.

I get the gest of where your coming from and what your trying to say. But I think your opinion of me is wrong. Lets take for example the poles of George W. Bush. 60 percent believe he is not doing a good job and 40 percent believe that he is. Do you believe the 60 percent or the 40 percent or derive an opinion of your own? I believe in the individuals right to their opinion till they force it on another. And I certainly haven't forced any one not to aquire the knowledge needed to write good poetry.

bows (~_~) humble

 

[Decayed Angel]

gEE Jim, let me see if I can remember the title of the poem or its author and go find it. The point was... why your here digging up bones.

Art, you brought it up once again accusing me, and have fun looking... I am open to any and all apologies you offer for all the different things you have accused me of.

Remember this post made on Monday...

Originally Posted by My Erotic Trail
You attack some one's poem with an ill comment and I say something encouraging to them, some one's thread is hijacked and several poets converge to rally words against them. I try to help them by taking the heat off them and I am your bad guy <bigrin

As I said, you brought it up once again.

 

[Decayed Angel]

and when you speak of gifted poets... I'll never forget the comment made, "He is a really good poet so we accept his rudeness" (don't quote me on that but its pretty darn close... look on the pathetic thread if you want the full monty)

Why do we accept your rudeness? You are not that good a poet, so why dow we accept it? Perhaps you give us no choice, it is something we simply expect from you.

 

[Decayed Angel]

what claims are you speaking of? Jim, I have never feared replying to any one... and almost always do so... I am a busy man but I believe I responded to all your posts, now if your refering to the snail or 1201, I quit argueing with him, you can tell a dog to stop barking over a loud speaker all you want but it won't help.

The claims I speak of are the ones you constantly make of me, that I shit on peoples poems, that I attack other poets, that I am rude, that I low vote. Last time I asked you to substantiate the claims you pm'd saying people asked you to drop it. The time before that, you simply did not either substantiate the claims or apologize.

Remember our conversation about innuendo?

 

[Decayed Angel]

Jim, the only ones I have ridiculed or denounced are those who verbally attacked, harassed or downed another... I think we have been over this before... I recall eve asking why do I feel the need to defend other poets, remember...! I do not bury my head in the sand if I think some one is doing another wrong.

Art, you have ridiculed me. Have I verbally attacked anyone, harassed anyone or downed another? Even in our most heated discussions I have been not attacked you, harassed you (unless you feel my responses to you are harassment) or downed you. I have never stooped to rudeness... I know you cannot make that same claim.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Why do we accept your rudeness? You are not that good a poet, so why dow we accept it? Perhaps you give us no choice, it is something we simply expect from you.

I am confused... am I talking to one man or are there several decayed angels <grin you use we... alot here. Who is 'WE' ... because I don't think the people I associate with here on this forum would say that I was rude! And when I have made a rude comment it was generally towards some one that was being rude to another or myself... there-fore ... is that why your being rude to me now, painting your mind's images of me? Continually coming to this thread to...? Your purpose? or should I say Y'alls (the WE's)

 

[Decayed Angel]

Although you did have your temper up with Elizabetht <bigrin, I don't think we need to pull up past arguments or apologize for our actions if we feel we are right but perhaps accept that we are on different paths.

Elizabetht did something that you have consistantly done... she accused me of shitting on people's poems and when I asked her substantiate her claim she did not respond. Funny thing was the comment she attacked me about was one where I told the poet that the poem was probably one of the best haiku posted at Lit. Of course Joseki Ko and you jumped in for some reason for a bit of tag team fun, all unsubstantiated of course.

The point I continue to try to make with you is that during the time I was writing reviews, I made it a point to take the time to comment on every poem I read, not just the ones I liked or disliked, not just the ones I recommended in my reviews. My reviews often took me upwards of five to six hours to write, because I took the time to try and provide constructive criticism an everything I read (on sometimes as many as sixty poems in an evening). On some of the very weak poems I would try my damndest to find something positive, something to build on. I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out how to comment honestly without injuring feelings.

I have consistently maintained that standard and to have some one consistently accuse me of shitting on poems, making ill comments, and attacking other poets. The sad thing is that you know I have been consistent and fair in my reviews and comments and yet you still accuse me. I don't understand why, maybe it's just you. The you I supposedly don't know.

I've not been doing much in poetry or in the forum, I have been concentrating on stories. But I am driven to speak out as you accuse me. I am sure others feel this frustration, but I have not have seen all their comments I cannot speak to them, but I can speak to what I have done.

 

[Decayed Angel]

I am confused... am I talking to one man or are there several decayed angels <grin you use we... alot here. Who is 'WE' ... because I don't think the people I associate with here on this forum would say that I was rude! And when I have made a rude comment it was generally towards some one that was being rude to another or myself... there-fore ... is that why your being rude to me now, painting your mind's images of me? Continually coming to this thread to...? Your purpose? or should I say Y'alls (the WE's)

Art, look at all the deleted comments and edited comments under your name in any number of our conversations. Times when you blew up, said something rude to me and then later modified your statement. You know I have not been rude to you.

 

[Decayed Angel]

. You want me to pull up all your comments on poems to find a 'Harsh' comment by you... for what? So that we can then again argue over what is considered harsh vs criticism. I will admit your not near as bad as some if that'll make you feel better.

Art I am talking "Ill comments", that was your most recent accusation. I am not as bad as some Art? You know better than that. I not only offered encouragement, I highlighted positives and made recommendations on weaker parts of poems. And I worked my ass off to consider feelings in the comments. I didn't offer pander to the poets saying that weak or mediocre work was stunning, I spent the time to actually read the poems, understand them, and find a way to be constructive. I invested the time in the poem, I didn't just say wow fun poem and go on...

I always enjoyed spending time on other's poetry, digging deep into the words to glean whatever I could, perhaps see what spark ignited the poem, how the poet wrote it... This unfolding of the words helped me to improve my own poetry as I watched others make the very decisions I often pondered writing a poem. I witnessed some of the same mistakes I made as I was beginning in poetry, I witnessed some of the mistakes I continue to make. I took the time to look deep into each of these poems and for you to accuse me of shitting on this work is reprehensible.

You can search and search. You know you will have a very difficult time finding the "Ill comments" you accuse me of. Harsh criticism... I was harsh on one of Senna Jawa's haiku, but think I offered some good suggestions and I don't think I hurt his feelings much. Amid all of Joseki Ko's haiku attempts, there may be one harsh criticism, but that is among five or six very positive criticisms, and again, he was not hurt I assure you.

So Art, even those comments are based upon the poem and in no way can be considered "Ill comments". Why do you continually claim that I am making these "Ill comments"?

False accusation Art, simple as that.

As I said, an apology would be nice. If you continue searching all my comments, try to read a few, you will see what I mean.

 

[Decayed Angel]

... there-fore ... is that why your being rude to me now,

Art, as I said before, I am not being rude to you now, nor have I ever been. I am simply responding to false accusations.

 

[Decayed Angel]

Continually coming to this thread to...? Your purpose? or should I say Y'alls (the WE's)

I don't continually come to this thread. I have watched it as you pondered ambition and when I learned you were thinking of including all your thoughts on a paper you were going to write to present or submit to a group of college students. That caught my interest.

Your Karate story, like the fictional one I posted here in the forum, seemed ironic to me and I commented on that fact. I was then, once again, of attacking poets and posting "Ill comments." As for the Y'alls (the WE's), I act on my own. The "We" I refered to was referencing the other people here who put up with you. I spoke for them without consulting any of them, if any of you out there who have put up with Art all this time takes offense to me including you in "We" I apologize.

I used a number of posts in responding to you because I find it is easier than all the cutting and pasting of the quotes to write a long single post. Also, it is rare that I talk much in the forums anymore and I wanted to get my post count up to 100 so I could show you the origin of the Decayed Angel.

I'm gonna go write a story now, perhaps a karate horror story... all those Karate Kids and all.

I you choose to apologize I will accept it, if you choose not to I will have no choice not to accept it, that is until you make a false accusation about me again and then I will, once again, ask you to grow a little.

You should read some Haruki Murakami... some odd and interesting stuff.

jim : )

 

[Decayed Angel]

I'm gonna go write a story now, perhaps a karate horror story...

Damn I have to do the dishes... of all the injustices!

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Elizabetht did something that you have consistantly done... she accused me of shitting on people's poems and when I asked her substantiate her claim she did not respond. Funny thing was the comment she attacked me about was one where I told the poet that the poem was probably one of the best haiku posted at Lit. Of course Joseki Ko and you jumped in for some reason for a bit of tag team fun, all unsubstantiated of course..

I see a pattern here... you have three people tell you that you have left 'ill' comments. Jim I would love to provide 'that' comment... I searched <grin you haven't posted a comment under jthserra in while, I looked back two years just to find one with that name, now I know you have probably commented since then but it will take awhile to find one. Here's what I am thinking because I had to re read this thread in order to figure out why your upset...


this was clipped from my original reply...

You attack some one's poem with an ill comment and I say something encouraging to them, some one's thread is hijacked and several poets converge to rally words against them. I try to help them by taking the heat off them and I am your bad guy <bigrin

I just had this conversation with Tzara... what is considered an ill comment and what is criticism, so you look at it as constructive criticism while some take it as 'HARSH' or ill... the point is we are not seeing eye to eye on styles of comments. Others felt you were harsh as well...


and your claiming this...

The point I continue to try to make with you is that during the time I was writing reviews, I made it a point to take the time to comment on every poem I read, not just the ones I liked or disliked, not just the ones I recommended in my reviews. My reviews often took me upwards of five to six hours to write, because I took the time to try and provide constructive criticism an everything I read (on sometimes as many as sixty poems in an evening). On some of the very weak poems I would try my damndest to find something positive, something to build on. I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out how to comment honestly without injuring feelings.

I have consistently maintained that standard and to have some one consistently accuse me of shitting on poems, making ill comments, and attacking other poets. The sad thing is that you know I have been consistent and fair in my reviews and comments and yet you still accuse me. I don't understand why, maybe it's just you. The you I supposedly don't know.

obviously others see your comments in a different light, what is seen as an ill comment or an 'attack' (probably a tad harsh but...) your calling an extinsive effort to say something positive and not hurt some one's feelings, well jim... it didn't work! Not if three people are saying the same thing. I know you don't like the word pompus, but for lack of a better word and NO I am not at this time calling you pompus but does a pompus person know that their pompus? Perhaps you don't know that your comments were harsh! Just as I may not feel I owe you an apology. Especially if I can produce the comment.

I vaguely remember the vague thread, I will see if I can find that comment (I did look) now...
<don't laugh> I will be back but I am going hunting tomorrow and won't be back till late and then again this weekend but you'll hear back from me friday, I am not slipping off just to slip back in <smile> so, you want to do saturday poem reviews this weekend? <bigrin (~_*)

I will be most honored to continue our conversation (~_~)