Do you honestly like women?

[Pookie]

I really don't think women appreciate the effect they can have on men. They'll put on some clothes they think look "cute", and to men they'll just look devastatingly sexy. Those howls and moans we used to see in cartoons when a woman walks by a bunch of men are not that far off the mark. A man can literally ache with desire. Women can cause men real physical pain as well as mental pain.

So how does a man react to this? How does he handle these overwhelming feelings a woman can elicit from him? I think a lot of time it comes out in violence, in hatred, in resentment.

Most guys just ask me to go out on dates. I would hope that is typical with most other chicks.

As for "driving men crazy", I won't argue with that.

Pookie

 

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Pookie_grrl
Most guys just ask me to go out on dates. I would hope that is typical with most other chicks.

No one's ever asked me out = ) but no hollars or howls, either.

Chicklet

 

[Svenskaflicka]

So many posts to comment on...

First of all, Bridge:

And with her behaviour, I think I would have smacked her.

Does that mean that you think that there ARE cases when a man has a right to smack a woman? Who should decide which these cases are? And who should decide just how hard he may smack her?

Doc:

A man can literally ache with desire. Women can cause men real physical pain as well as mental pain.

So how does a man react to this? How does he handle these overwhelming feelings a woman can elicit from him? I think a lot of time it comes out in violence, in hatred, in resentment. When a man calls a woman a "whore" he's not implying that she trades sex for money, he means that she's too sexy; she's a tease. What's the male fantasy? Power over women. Why does he want power over someone he's already stronger than? What's he trying to master? It's his own desire. He wants to control the object of his desire.

A boy has to learn how to control himself, so he won't wet his pants, but will go to the toilet to pee there. A man has to learn to control himself, so he will not attack a woman, but will go to the toilet to jerk off. We wouldn't accept a little boy calling girls horrible names just because he couldn't control himself but peed in his pants. There's no way in hell I'll ever accept a man calling a woman horrible names because he can't help feeling horny for her. That's his problem. Nothing he should take out on her.

No man will ever be able to control his desire by controlling the object of his desire.

And, finally, Chicklet:

Do I respect my slutty characters? No. If I did, I probably wouldn't be able to write them as well.

I haven't read all of your stories yet, but I do know that you're a good author, and it puzzles me why you would think that your female characters would have to be slutty in order for your stories to be good. Hopefully, I have misunderstood your post altogether.

Svenskaflicka

And I AM a Feminist.

 

[Chicklet]

And, finally, Chicklet:

I haven't read all of your stories yet, but I do know that you're a good author, and it puzzles me why you would think that your female characters would have to be slutty in order for your stories to be good. Hopefully, I have misunderstood your post altogether.

yeah...not all my female characters are sluts...in fact I can only think of one (amelia in twin's revenge) but those one's i don't respect = )

sorry for lack of clarity

 

[Chicklet]

Does that mean that you think that there ARE cases when a man has a right to smack a woman?

if you hit your boyfriend/husband, does he have the right to hit you back? where do you draw the line between feminism and sexism?

Chicklet

 

[DVS]

.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

if you hit your boyfriend/husband, does he have the right to hit you back? where do you draw the line between feminism and sexism?

Chicklet

My line between feminism and sexism?

Feminism is the belief that women are worth as much as men. That they should have the same rights and possibilities to study, to work, to make the same money as a man with the same job/experience/education, etc. That they should have the right to decide over their own bodies, to decide whether or not they want to have sex with this or that man or not, if they want to have children or not.

Sexism is the opposite of the above mentioned thing.

If I were to hit my hubby, would he have the right to hit me back? Will two wrongs make a right? He has as little right to hit me as I have to hit him. That's why neither one of us ever hits the other one.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

"Boys will be boys"

Originally posted by DVS

I remember feelings I used to have when I was younger, where I would see a pretty woman dressed in sexy clothes. It is actual physical pain, in many cases. Women should not take this pain lightly and pass it off as the boy's responsibility to control.
*snip*
There is some responsibility on the part of the woman to understand this and know it is always going to be possible she will be on the receiving end of cat calls, etc., if not actual confrontations from the boys of the male gender.

Whose responsibility is it then, to make sure he doesn't attack a woman and rapes her? Her own? By not wearing sexy clothes? Like in Iran, where women must wrap themselves up in order not to tempt the poor men, who will be victims of incontrollable lusts?

The mind of a boy will allow his body to take control and he sometimes ends up doing stupid things because of it. The blood flows into the lower body and the upper body is no longer in charge. Keep in mind, this can sometimes be physical pain he is feeling, and he wants the pain to stop. One way to stop this pain is to release the feelings.
*snip*
Unfortunatly, there is a learning curve involved, and some boys learn slower than others. And, some never really grow up. The boy continues to live in the man's body.

By using a phrase like "boys will be boys", we pat rapists on the head and say "He couldn't help it, she looked so sexy, he got horny, poor thing". I actually don't give a cat poop about how much pain he's in when he sees a sexy woman and gets blue balls, he has no right to rape the woman or be rude to her verbally, and if he does, he deserves to be punished for the pain he has made her suffer!

The pain he feels when he gets a hard-on is nothing like the pain she feels after being raped! His pain passes within half an hour, hers stay with her for the rest of her life - unless she ends it.

 

[TheEarl]

I did wonder at the title of this thread. Wondering whether you were going to suggest some of us blokes come out of the closet. Speaking of which, are there any gay men on Lit? That prob deserves it own thread actually.

I have very female mind and often write in Female 1st person. Although I may write about loose women at times, I never disrespect them. Where would we be without loose women?

On someone else's point: I don't believe it is ever right to hit a woman. I may be old fashioned and it may be sexist, but I think there is no provocation which would make me hit a woman.

Mind you I was actually outed as a closet mysogynist and a sexist pig for allowing a lady to go through a doorway in front of me. Apparently in today's PC world, I should have pushed in front of her.

The Earl

 

[Guest]

poor word choice

First of all, Bridge:

Does that mean that you think that there ARE cases when a man has a right to smack a woman? Who should decide which these cases are? And who should decide just how hard he may smack her?

Svenska,

Poor word choice for me there. I don't ever believe physical violence is justified. I meant more that I would have wanted to smack her, but would have just invited her to leave my home.

DVS-

I definitely meant "showed her ass" to refer to her lousy attitude.

And I think that while we do need to be aware of how our conduct impacts other people, the buck always stops with the owner of the actual actions.

Many actions in this world cause unsuspecting people pain. My asthmatic daughter cannot breathe around women wearing strong scents or smoking. While the temptation is to be angry at the inconsiderate jerks who are putting my daughter's life at risk, we just expect it to occur and have a plan for dealing with it.

 

[DVS]

Re: "Boys will be boys"

.

 

[hiddenself]

Doesn't fantasy imitate reality?

Since I haven't published anything on Lit yet, I don't even know if I'm supposed to be at this forum. So, shout me off, if this is inappropriate.

I agree that many stories contain scenes and verbal expressions that are "demeaning" ("demean" = to lower in character, status, or reputation) to women by the usual societal norms. What does that indicate?

I think that quite a few (most? some?) men have aggression as some part of their sexuality (smaller? bigger?). Cultural? Genetic? I'll leave it to future science. The point is that your average man gets turned on by rougher sex (fantasies and reality) than your average woman. I agree with dr.M's 'control' theory, although it may not hold for everyone. BigTexan, I see nothing offensive to his statements. They may simply be wrong. Or, you may be in the minority. Or, you may have those 'urges' well under control. So says dr. Freud.

As for the original question, I interprete it as

"there are all these ugly things that the female characters are made to do or subjected to... so, does the writer really dislike, detest, disrespect them (and in extension, hate women in general)?"

(Apologies if I did not capture the original meaning Bridget.)

The point is that those ugly things may not be ugly or disrespectful or demeaning at all for some people (men and women), particularly in a heated sexual moment. Or, they may be but they are desirable because... well, I'm not a psychoanalyst, maybe someone can take a stab at this.

I've slapped and been slapped during sex. I've used plenty of four-letter words, I've been asked to use such, and have been called names in turn. I've inflicted some mild pain and I've received in turn -- I vividly remember my own nipples being on fire for two days after a memorable session. I admit it's easier to do things not socially acceptable if you're somewhat detached from a partner, but it can work in any situation. My key point is CONSENT and PLEASURE. If both (or all?) parties agree and enjoy, what is it to anyone else?

I once had a brief fling with someone who was a strong feminist. She did enjoy the wilder sex and it was a real problem for her philosophically. Do you trust your body that says you're enjoying it or do you doubt that it's just a culturally imposed desire (essentially having been brainwashed to be suserviant to men)? I have no answer.

I remember back then I asked "Does it matter if you're having fun?" But I realize that it's not so simple.

 

[Chicklet]

Re: Re: "Boys will be boys"

Also, rape is a control offense, not a sexual offense. Situation plays a lot in who is raped and who isn't. But, by what you wear, you can become a target in the warped mind of a rapist.

agreed.

 

[Guest]

Re: Doesn't fantasy imitate reality?

Since I haven't published anything on Lit yet, I don't even know if I'm supposed to be at this forum. So, shout me off, if this is inappropriate.

I agree that many stories contain scenes and verbal expressions that are "demeaning" ("demean" = to lower in character, status, or reputation) to women by the usual societal norms. What does that indicate?

As for the original question, I interprete it as

"there are all these ugly things that the female characters are made to do or subjected to... so, does the writer really dislike, detest, disrespect them (and in extension, hate women in general)?"

(Apologies if I did not capture the original meaning Bridget.)

The point is that those ugly things may not be ugly or disrespectful or demeaning at all for some people (men and women), particularly in a heated sexual moment. Or, they may be but they are desirable because... well, I'm not a psychoanalyst, maybe someone can take a stab at this.

Glad to have you here, Hiddenself,

It is the attitude underlying any of the actions that is what unsettles me...

There can be a story of pure consensual sex where the woman has 17 orgasms and is completely satisfied, yet the tone of the story is that she is naively used or a bimbo, or any number of attitudes...

 

[BigTexan]

Okay, this thread is making my blood boil in many ways.

First off DVS and Dr. M. do not speak for most men.

A MAN knows how to control himself.
A MAN doesn't have uncontrollable urges.
A MAN doesn't rape women or even fantasize about raping women.

This shit about "Men have urges they can't control" is just that. It's shit!

Yes when I see a pretty woman, I admire her beauty. That doesn't lessen her value and it doesn't hurt her. I don't have "uncontrollable urges" to fuck her. I don't get "blue balls" if I don't fuck her. I'm in no physical pain and I'm not even uncomfortable around her. And of all the men I know, I only personally know one who claims any of that shit. And he is a complete fucking idiot and an asshole!

On to other topics. Is it right for a man to hit a woman? If he is protecting himself or his property from real threat and there is no other way for him to achieve that protection then YES.

Violence should always be a last resort, but any person has the right to protect him/her self against real harm. Why should a woman be treated differently? Why should a man be expected to allow a woman to stab him to death and not protect himself? He shouldn't.

On to rape. There is no excuse for rape. MEN do not rape women. Monsters rape women. Human animals of the male gender rape women. These pieces of shit are not MEN and they should NOT be given the same rights as men. They are monsters and should be treated accordingly. My perscription is public physical castration without benefit of medical aid and then public crusifiction until such time as their skeletons fall from the crosses. If we did that I suspect that even DVS and Dr. M. would suddenly find their urges to be much more controllable.

BigTexan

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Welcome to the discussion, hiddenself!

You make a very good point. I'll say that a game is a game, and RL is RL. But the fantasies at Lit are not merely reflecting people's ideas, they are also inspiring and influencing. After reading 200 stories where women are alled sluts, and where they scream "make me you cum-whore" and stuff, a person will be influenced by it. Not that he will turn off the computer and go out and jump the first woman he sees in the street, but he will loose a part of his... upset-ness, with the whole thing about women being called dirty names. He will slowly come to think that it's OK to call a woman a slut, because he hears young women call each other sluts.

I'm not saying that we should forbid everyone to use these words at all, because if there's a couple who like to use them while playing a game in bed, then who am I to tell them that they must be PC in bed?

What I'm saying is that I think it's too much of it, that it's not just a bunch of people who are using these words as a game, but it's becoming almost like a terminology, as if an author can't write a sex story without throwing in atleast 5 "bitch", 2 "slut" and 1 "whore".

If women would be as insulting to men as some men are to women, our entire gender would probably be diagnosed as mentally bananas.

 

[DVS]

.

 

[BigTexan]

If women would be as insulting to men as some men are to women, our entire gender would probably be diagnosed as mentally bananas.

Some women are.

But your point is a good one. Desensitization is a common problem today and I think it leads to an increase in problems in our society.

If children grow up hearing strong, powerful, or charming men disrespecting women then they are much less likely to have respect for women themselves. In America we see this in a couple of the sub-cultures that exist here.

I do think that most attitudes and morals are set by the time people reach adulthood and it is very difficult to change those attitudes and morals after that. I doubt that TV significantly desensitizes a grown man, but if he makes several new friends that talk that way then he may change his views.


BigTexan

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I have snipped quite a lot of this quote, mind you!

You missunderstand what I am trying to say. It is the boy's responsibility to not rape the girl. But, because a boy will not always accept that responsibility and blame the way the girl was dressed, the girl should at least be aware of this fact and possibly be more in control of her fate by watching what she wears in some cases.

This should not be necessary, but it is a fact, just the same. I brought up the phrase "boys will be boys" to help explain a point. This situation has been ongoing for many years. That is how the phrase got started in the first place. It does not condone the actions of the boys, it only voices what has and will continue to happen.

Sure, you can continue to go out in provocative dress and not be concerned about the result. But, you are also more likely to be the victim, if you do not use a little common sense and know when to do this and when not to. Don't you think it is better to be in control of your own situation?

Also, rape is a control offense, not a sexual offense. Situation plays a lot in who is raped and who isn't. But, by what you wear, you can become a target in the warped mind of a rapist.

Since boys don't always take the responsibility they should, girls should be areful not to arouse them? This IS the same argument I've heard for the Iranian veils!

"what has and will continue to happen"... By saying that, you're indicating that this is natural, that it is NATURAL for boys not to tak responsibility for their own actions! And why should they? They can always shrug their shoulders and blaim their "incontrollable lusts", and society will just shake its head at these naughty, naughty boys, like we'd been talking about Bart Simpson stealing apples!

By saying that women should try to be in control of their situation, you are actually shifting the responsibility for not being raped onto the women, you are saying that a woman has to make sure not to get raped, and if she does anyway, well... did she wear a long skirt? A turtle neck? Ah, well, what did she expect..?

The only thing I do agreee with you, DVS, is that rape is about control, not sex.

But therefor, it also doesn't matter if the woman is young and sexy and dressed in a short skirt, or an old, grey woman in a long robe. When a rapists wants to show that he can do whatever he wants because it's his will that is important, not hers, he WILL rape any one of them!

I know a woman who got raped when she was 8. What could she have done, how could she have dressed, to control her fate?????????

 

[gauchecritic]

Being Gauche I think I'll have to step in here and say what everyone who has posted on this thread has studiously avoided saying.

Are girls who 'dress up' (for whatever reason) asking for it if they are the subject of diminution, from cat-calls to rape.

Well let's ask this question. Why do girls (and indeed men) 'dress up'?

In the majority of cases, however much you may disagree, it is to appear attractive in order to procreate. This is basic.

You may argue that it makes you feel good. It makes you feel good to be attractive. It raises your self-esteem. Because it makes you attractive. You are a lesbian and want to attract women. It still makes you attractive.

Attractive is the operative word.

This is basic, however modern society isn't basic. For the most part it is cultured, educated and aware.

This is where the dichotomy begins.

It is the right of every Woman (and man) to feel and appear attractive yet at the same time to NOT be in fear of the very same thing.

As for the power struggle, women have, and will always have the greater power over men, because it is they who are biologically capable of procreating. Everything else is just muscle.

Gauche

 

[Svenskaflicka]

You can never protect yourself from rape. If you think that you'll be safe by wearing nice but not attractive clothes, and never walk alone at night, and never flirt with a stranger, you're fooling yorself. There is no safety. There never has been.

Rapists aren't masked bandits hiding in the dark night waiting for a prey in short skirt.
The father of 3 kids, who has been your neighbour for 13 years, who comes by at noon, and asks if he can borrow a cup of sugar - he can be a rapist.
The priest, who hasn't touched a woman in 55 years, because he has devote dhis life to God - he can be a rapist.
The principle at your children's school, who asks you to come and discuss little Timmy's slipping grades - he can be a rapist.

You can never know, never protect yourself. By thinking you can, by following certain rules and rituals, you're only making yourself vunerable for the clever ones.

 

[Guest]

where angels fear to tread

DVS-

I think my earlier thread regarding taking responsibility for one's actions is a toned down version of BT's comments, so, yes, I agree with them.

I absolutely and totally reject your premise that the way a woman dresses will set her up to be raped. Rape is an act of violence. Period. Allowing a woman's dress to be even considered is obscene. We don't admonish young attractive men to be careful how they dress lest they be raped...

And in this light, I can understand how BT could take it that you acknowledge that the occurrence of rape is "understandable". Because that is how it comes across to me.

This is one area where I don't think there are any grays... no is no and there should be no discussion of "understanding" how rape could have occurred.

Fantasizing about rape, to me, ranks with fantasizing about murder. They are both fantasies of violence.

b

 

[BigTexan]

First off DVS, If I have misunderstood you then I apologize. I re-read your posts and I must still misunderstand you, because it seems to me that you ARE saying that men (or you call them boys) have uncontrollable urges that should be forgiven.

If that isn't true then please do accept my apology.

Are girls who 'dress up' (for whatever reason) asking for it if they are the subject of diminution, from cat-calls to rape.

I can't believe that anyone would "ask" to really be raped. Women who dress up are doing so to be more attractive, but I'm quite confident that if they are looking for sex, they are looking for consensual sex.

Well let's ask this question. Why do girls (and indeed men) 'dress up'?

In the majority of cases, however much you may disagree, it is to appear attractive in order to procreate. This is basic.

I can't ever remember thinking to myself. "Hmm, I'm going to wear these pants so that I can father a child tonight." I doubt very many women have had a thought like that either.

They do it to be attractive, yes. To procreate? Probably not.

As for the power struggle, women have, and will always have the greater power over men, because it is they who are biologically capable of procreating. Everything else is just muscle.

Gauche

This kind of animalistic, instinct rules everything, thinking is, in my opinion, bunk! Humans have risen above instinct. At least some of us have. We now can think. For the most part rationally. I do not feel that a woman has power over me. Even my wife doesn't have power over me. Influence with me, yes. Her opinions are important to me, but I can disregard them when I don't agree with her. She has the same autonomy and freedom to think and choose. I do not run her life. I wouldn't if I could.

BigTexan

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Big Texan:

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Big Texan:
I strongly resent your association of my name or my ideas with the promulgation or justification of rape under any circumstances. You seriously and grievously misunderstand what I've said.

I put forth my theory in an atempt to understand what to me is an irrefutable fact: that many men are threatened by woman, and that many male fantasies fantasies contain strong elements of control and retribution.

Seeing this as supporting violence against women is the same as finding Freud guilty of advocating parricide and incest. I would have thought that the difference between a maladaptive internal dynamic and public behavior would have been obvious.


---dr.M.