How to compliment a woman

[satindesire]

I don't believe satindesire is the equivalent of a misogynist in the slightest. I don't believe she is a party to "The kind of man hating..." I am not threatened in any way by "people like SD", I welcome their strength of commentary. I believe society as a whole benefits immensely by those who are willing to speak up loud for equality, respect and the right for anyone to go about their lives without hinder from intimidation and fear of assault.

I can not see, in any way, anything that satindesire has said that could possibly be seen as dangerous to society, quite the opposite. Where exactly is the threat? How has anything she said this time or previously that promotes denial of rights for men or attack on the male dignity. I have never witnessed a tarnishing of 'all males' from satindesire.

"Stand tall, walk strong, keep your head raised" has been offered as a way to lessen your chance of falling victim to a bully or be targeted by predatory behaviour. If, however, it still happens I respect immensely the person who has the courage for a stern rebuke of "Fuck off". They owe the perpetrator of the harassment no more energy and time than the delivery of those two words. Those two words along with "Stand tall, walk strong, keep your head raised" may well give cause for a potential attacker to back off. Those two words in that context are not
"The kind of man-hating that she has" being delivered to all men. If those two words help ward of a potential escalation or perhaps attack, then they are empowering.

It was very wrong to have warped this discussion into "people like SD" and "man hating" and indeed "hatred of race". Blanket coverage has only been promoted by one person in this thread as in the use of name calling.

Society is not going to fall over because a woman said "fuck off" while being harassed. She is saying this to one person who is a dick-head not all males. I am glad to live in a society where dick-heads get the two words they deserve, irrespective of gender, race or religion.

Where is the threat in anything satindesire has argued for or promoted? How has anyone's rights been diminished? Where are the personal attacks from her? Where are the blanket statements of "all males"? How is society endangered?

Careful, if you defend me you're running the risk of getting the same treatment.

I love you dearly and you don't deserve that.

I'm going to skip this discussion about trans vs cis because I have nothing valuable to add to that. I have no authority on it. I am grateful for the explainations because reading through it; I learned something.

There's been talk of people having not felt comfortable posting and I feel that way. My responses to this thread have been as fair as I could muster. It takes me a really long time to respond with so little. It's part of how I react and interact with people regularly. The responses I make are based on my experiences. I've had a chance to be on a lot of sides and have a lot of different perspectives. That doesn't make me an expert.

When I read satindesire's posts, I realize she has something I don't. She isn't afraid to say something. I'm happy she does that. There's been times in this thread when I would have LOVED to jump in and rip someone a new asshole because what was said made me so angry. But I don't. That's not to say that satin jumps in and does that, but sometimes my rage is understated.

I look like this: but inside I'm this:

I lose my train of thought easily so if this stops being coherent and I'm rambling I apologize.

I want to share a bit of something I held back. Something that prompted me to finally write down and show my husband what really happened to me. He knew about it, but he didn't have any of the details or how long it went on for. He just knew that sometimes I felt bad thinking about it.

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=59615141&postcount=99

^^^This post was vile in my mind. At the time I shut down and decided to wait for the wave of this one to pass. I knew most people would point out how shitty this post came off. Thanks to all those who pointed out why this post was so wrong.

So, why does this post strike a cord with me? I was raped by someone I knew. I'm part of that statistic he felt needed to be pointed out. What that said to me: Don't worry about strangers! You'll KNOW your rapist!

And the only thing I can think is, If I was raped by someone I knew and trusted, how do you think I should react to someone I don't know and don't trust?

Our experiences shape our responses. When a man I don't know asks me for directions, the hair on the back of my neck raises and I get nervous. I politely give him the directions, but my mind is screaming to run. When I give the directions, I try my best to stand away from him and not get too close.

I know for sure that every man I pass isn't looking to hurt me. I'm positive that I'm safe most of the time. But when someone randomly compliments me and I'm alone, I get nervous. I don't know what that person's intention is, I just know that if they've complimented my appearance they've just expressed that they like what they see and I automatically go into panic mode.

When I share my experience, I'm not "fear mongering." I'm sharing something with the hopes that someone will understand where my fear comes from. I'm hoping they will see the other side and be more sensitive to my POV.

With that said, I'm one woman out of millions. I have my personal experiences that shape my way of thinking. I've also been able to read and empathize with other women who have had similar experiences. When you say someone "always plays the victim" you make it harder for someone else to come forward and share what they've been through. For me, I struggled for years with it wondering why I couldn't feel better. I didn't share it because I knew there were other people out there who had been through worse stuff. It wasn't until a friend told me, "It's not about who went through worse stuff, it's about sharing your experience so others can learn from it."

There are a lot of strong personalities battling it out in this thread. It's intimidating to say the least.

People like yourself, Night and Sticky that appreciate what I do mean the world to me. Thank you.

 

[Aquagal]

I'm way late to this convo, because I was on vacay and off having way more fun. To the OP's question....what an eye opener to me that people don't actually like compliments. I guess I'm lucky enough to live in a world where all of this has never been even pondered, and I've only spent half my life tucked away in the woods. Don't consider me part of he 'majority' that can't receive a compliment as just that, and walk away.

I don't even know what a ciswoman, nor have heard of it before this thread. *shrug

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I wouldn't call it a phobia, and I'm not sure if this was directed at me. I agree that being prepared can help with anxiety, but I have no idea how to help with a phobia.

I feel I should point out that during these interactions, I lose the nerves when it becomes apparent this person really does just need directions. I have a kneejerk reaction to a lot of situations. As I'm sure a lot of people do.

When I feel comfortable or I have a friend with me, it's not the same reaction. I am more at ease. I was just sharing this as an example.

During my training I learned how to desensitize people to the anxiety and panic we're speaking of, and its effective if dissociation from feelings is your goal. You don't feel it but its still there. And let me say that its wonderful for physical pain relief. I had my wisdom teeth removed with no novacaine, and never felt any discomfort. But skills do the same thing when youre clueless about how to manage a serious problem. If you cant stop arterial bleeding feeling calm about it isn't helpful. If you know what to do youre effective and calmer.

 

[bailadora]

And this is the kind of post from which I can learn.

Before I read your story about what happened to you, I read the post you linked. In my mind, I truly saw nothing that stuck out. But then reading your story, it makes sense.

Thanks for your post and your comments.

Not to be argumentative, but what about her post clicked with you? The fact that she was actually attacked? (For which, I offer you my sincerest sympathies, MeekMe ).

Because I'm pretty sure the type of fear she describes feeling was expressed by other women in this thread, myself included. The reasoning behind that fear was shared as well: that even if we, ourselves, haven't been attacked, we probably know someone who has, and deep down, we fear becoming the next one to add to that statistic.

Speaking for myself, that's the main source of frustration I sometimes feel when discussing this issue. I certainly don't blame all men for the actions of some. I would just like for more men to be aware of and more sensitive to where that wariness comes from.

 

[KrazyWhiteBoy]

I do believe SD is the same as a misogynist, in the mostest. And, based on the number of PMs that I get from people when she and I got into this argument, I'm not alone. People think she's delusional and she's full of shit. You have no idea how many people PM me saying that they are glad someone stood up to her bullshit. And it's not her beliefs necessarily. It's how she goes about them. She's like a bull in a china shop.

First off, I think her claims of constantly getting accosted are complete and utter horse shit. Why? Well, she accused me of flirting with her one time. Hell. The. Fuck. No. I said I would rather jump face first into a volcano than have a conversation with her. Well, I'd rather jump dick first into an ant pile than flirt with her. I can't imagine the self delusion one has to have to believe that. So, I can only imagine that when a guy smiles at her on the street, how she must take that as a sign of aggression. I've seen her go nuclear or just completely bitch on posters here who make lighthearted comments towards her, on a sex site. Add that to a highly inflated sense of self worth and a massive ego and I think you get delusion.

I'm glad you're not threatened by people like her. I'm not either. But I think she's delusional. It's not because she's a woman. It's because she demands that everyone have a voice. As long as it's the same as hers. Imagine the shit she would give women if someone came out and said they enjoy the compliments and the catcalls.

You ask what she does that is harmful to men? Well, she's constantly on the defensive with them. I mentioned earlier where I've seen guys be flirtatious with her and she responds to a mosquito bite with a gun. And when someone calls her out on it, they are considered a misogynistic pig who is promoting the em"burka"ment of all women here and abroad.

There are times when a fuck off is needed. I don't disagree. If I saw someone else give that comment to someone on the forum who was being overly aggressive, then it wouldn't mean much. But, as stated earlier, it comes with a price when it comes from her, because she's constantly looking to be the victim. That's how I say she is harmful to the cause.

Thank you, Night, for so eloquently showing me where I was wrong. The fact that you don't see the correlation in the race example and that you see it as "hatred of race"... I don't even know how to finish that sentence. Again, I tried to draw on a very similar parallel (one that was sharpened after Bramble's comments) to show that the kind of thinking that was being discussed can be a dangerous form of prejudice, in other contexts. I think MeekMe seemed to really capture it well with her post in response to it.

All I'm saying is that the thoughts need to be there on that kind of conditioning. I was pointing out the dangerous side to the being conditioned to react a certain way in certain situations coin.

@stickygirl- in response to your comments. I'll assume it was largely directed at me, as you mentioned the race thing and I was the one who brought that up. I still feel that it have either been unclear or something about this... I do not think the compliments are appropriate or that they should have to be endured. I don't think that's okay and I don't think, in any of my posts, I have even hinted at that. I am not someone who compliments women, nor have I ever been. For me, it would be really awkward.

I'll reiterate on why I pointed out the racism rabbit. I was showing a parallel that fit into the same scenario. People are uncomfortable saying that they would be okay with someone being conditioned to behave a certain way because of the normally benign action of someone based on race, but we are saying it's okay in other instances. I never took a stance one way or the other. I simply posed the scenario, in a couple of different ways, finally getting to one I think anyone would agree is quite similar. And still, few people chose to actually take a stance on it, because it makes people feel weird to say that they can understand someone being a certain way towards a certain group of people based on race. That was the purpose of that exercise. It wasn't to say women are wrong for their feelings of fear about certain things. It was to pose the danger of a conditioned way of thinking.

SD's outspoken points don't do more good than harm. It's like having Justin Bieber as the spokesperson for the rights of gay marriage. Yes, the cause may be fair and just. But you have a spokesperson that a lot of people think is a ticking time bomb.

Sticky- what do you mean don't call someone gurl? Is that a term used for transgender people that is offensive? Just the term gurl? Or is it attached to something else? I've never seen that term before.

WOW!!! You are way off!!! Not once did I feel that Satindesire was inflammatory in her posts. You on the other hand are still trying to throw gas on the fire. Other than you, there was only one other person that came across as someone with a huge chip on their shoulder. It was a female, but it wasn't SD.

I do thank you, though. Because of your dickishness I understand where Satindesire, Meekme, Bailadora, and others are coming from.

NightL gave the correct advice from the start of this thread. In fact, NightL has been "right on the mark" in all the posts I have read. So I don't believe it is to much of a stretch to say, that NightL is 100% correct in defense of Satindesire and dismissive of you.

 

[Bramblethorn]

No, I'm not saying that someone should be placed in a prison based on size. However, there has to be a certain criteria for determining how to place people in a prison, rather than if she lives as a woman.

You're suggesting that I'm saying women who are large should be placed into a men's facility. No. Not at all. I'm saying a person born as a man may have to be sent to a male prison.

Nobody is "born as a man". We're all born as tiny defenseless babies, naked and covered in blood. If status at birth is your criterion, send 'em all to a maternity hospital.

I think a person born as a man, tall or not, should be sent to a men's prison, if that's what her chromosome's say she is.

Okay, just so we're absolutely clear on this: even if we were talking an eighteen-year-old trans woman on HRT who was five foot nothing, willowy-thin and gorgeous, you're saying you'd still send her to a men's prison.

But if it was somebody like Buck Angel, presumably by the same standard you'd send them to a women's prison?

(BTW, if we're segregating prisoners by chromosomes, are we going to build separate prisons for all the XXYs and XYYs and XOs and mosaic/chimeras etc out there? Based on population incidences, there are likely to be at least ten thousand people in the US prison population who aren't pure XX or XY, and possibly a lot more; it's still not at all clear how common chimerism is.)

I've never dismissed trans women at all.

You are saying that no matter what a trans woman's identity is, or even her body, she ought to be treated as a man based on the circumstances of birth. That certainly seems like "dismissal" in my book.

But I'm saying, there are safety precautions when you go to prisons. You've committed a crime and you are sent there for punishment.

That's arguable; depending on which penologists you talk to, the purpose of prison might be rehabilitation, or to prevent them from committing future crimes. Or if you're being cynical, to provide cheap labour for companies that run prisons for profit.

But even if you're with those who think the primary punishment of prison is punishment, there's a prohibition in the US Constitution against "cruel and unusual" punishment; sending women to men's prison qualifies.

Anyway, you've already said this is not about size; as far as I can see the main "safety" angles here are the obvious implications of sending female-bodied people who identify as female to a male prison (and heavily-muscled trans guys to female prisons). You may well have met one big strong trans woman; she's not typical.

Here's Avery Edison, who was detained in a male prison after a visa snafu.

Here's Jane Doe, a sixteen-year-old trans girl who'd been sexually abused since age five, who the CT prison system wanted to send to a male prison. (She's now been held for months in solitary, in an adult prison, without charge.)

These are the consequences of the system you're advocating.

I don't know if that one person had a change or just had breasts. I really have no clue. I just know she would've had MASSIVE advantage over at a female prison.

Some prisoners are bigger and stronger than others. I think it's shitty that the prison system can't adequately protect the safety of inmates, and I'd love it if they did a better job at that. But "sex at birth" is an extremely unreliable way to do it.

And that does have to do with the fact that she was born a man. That's not dismissive, that's the reason.

I've already cited a bunch of doctors who study this stuff for a living, who've stated that trans women on HRT do not have a physical advantage over women. As far as I know you're not a doctor, and by your own account you don't know the details of this particular woman's medical situation, so no, you don't know what the reason is. You're dismissing a bucketload of medical evidence in favour of your own uninformed certainty.

And you've already acknowledged that you'd apply the exact same policy to any trans woman regardless of her physical prowess, so I'm not sure why you keep invoking this one woman as an example, instead of talking about people like the terrified sixteen-year-old who's been repeatedly raped in her short life and is now being told the state wants to house her with male prisoners.

It seems like you're wedded to the idea that trans people should be treated according to how they were identified at birth, no matter what their individual circumstances are, no matter how much harm that might cause to them or anybody else, no matter how irrelevant the physical arguments actually are. My loved ones have already been hurt far too much by attitudes like that, and it exceeds my thresholds for what I can discuss politely, so at this point I'm putting you on ignore for good rather than elaborate on what sort of person it makes you in my eyes.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I understand where Satindesire, Meekme, Bailadora, and others are coming from.

As much as this thread has turned into a flamewar, I wanted to note a positive here. KWB came in asking for advice on how to interact with women. I don't think the answers he got were the ones he was hoping to hear. But he listened, took it on board, and worked to understand where people were coming from.

IMHO that attitude is better than a lifetime's worth of "you have lovely eyes".

 

[Lord Pmann]

WOW!!! You are way off!!! Not once did I feel that Satindesire was inflammatory in her posts. You on the other hand are still trying to throw gas on the fire. Other than you, there was only one other person that came across as someone with a huge chip on their shoulder. It was a female, but it wasn't SD.

I do thank you, though. Because of your dickishness I understand where Satindesire, Meekme, Bailadora, and others are coming from.

NightL gave the correct advice from the start of this thread. In fact, NightL has been "right on the mark" in all the posts I have read. So I don't believe it is to much of a stretch to say, that NightL is 100% correct in defense of Satindesire and dismissive of you.

The funniest thing about this post is that you are complimenting the eloquence of Night and the kindness of SD.

It's okay that you don't like me. You have a different view than me. And that's okay. I will not call you a misogynist or anything for it.

If you will notice, the only person that I actually flamed is SD. You're new here, so you haven't seen years of hypocrisy or the lack of credibility she carries with her comments. You don't see the way she blows up at people for the smallest things. You've never seen her wish cancer on someone because they were unfaithful to their spouse. You've never seen her defend that behaviour as, if you're offended, then fuck off. I have. I've heard her tell people these things. And her general attitude is, if you don't like it, then you're scared of a strong woman. I can't expect you to know these things. You have made your observations based on this thread and that's fine. But before you make your judgments on why I think she is a hellbeast, maybe you could have asked me why I call her a hellbeast. Maybe the hypocrisy if hearing her tell someone to die of cancer hits home with me. Maybe THAT kind of rhetoric is offensive to me. I bet you she's anti death penalty. But she would wish cancer on someone who does something unethical? I would take the death penalty 50 times over having cancer or having my worst enemy struggle with it. So, excuse me if I think it's a little hypocritical when she gets on her soapbox about guys making passes at her when I've heard her spew things far more hurtful from her lipstick stained mouth than anything a guy has probably ever said to her.

And Night and I, as tense as it may seem with us here in our disagreements, have always been friendly. We disagree here. He thinks I'm a dick on this thread I'm sure. But I don't think that will last forever. Maybe he feels differently. I'll let him speak to that.

But all in all, it seems like I've been helpful to you. So I'll take that compliment. Thank you, sir. You are too kind.

 

[MeekMe]

Not to be argumentative, but what about her post clicked with you? The fact that she was actually attacked? (For which, I offer you my sincerest sympathies, MeekMe ).

Because I'm pretty sure the type of fear she describes feeling was expressed by other women in this thread, myself included. The reasoning behind that fear was shared as well: that even if we, ourselves, haven't been attacked, we probably know someone who has, and deep down, we fear becoming the next one to add to that statistic.

Speaking for myself, that's the main source of frustration I sometimes feel when discussing this issue. I certainly don't blame all men for the actions of some. I would just like for more men to be aware of and more sensitive to where that wariness comes from.

I have never figured out the right words. I appreciate when someone can translate.

During my training I learned how to desensitize people to the anxiety and panic we're speaking of, and its effective if dissociation from feelings is your goal. You don't feel it but its still there. And let me say that its wonderful for physical pain relief. I had my wisdom teeth removed with no novacaine, and never felt any discomfort. But skills do the same thing when youre clueless about how to manage a serious problem. If you cant stop arterial bleeding feeling calm about it isn't helpful. If you know what to do youre effective and calmer.

I understand, my anxiety manefested long before my stated experience. I look at it as self preservation. And with years of working out my issues, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be.

It's true that when I'm aware of what needs to be done, I go about it with a more level head. Even going as far as to say with confidence.

 

[satindesire]

Don't you find it offensive that he thinks you need defending though? That maybe you're just a poor woman who needs a KnightL in shining armour? What makes that less offensive than a compliment?

Serious question because to me that idea is much more offensive than a random compliment.

The very fact that you and Pmann are obsessively convinced that I'm a man-hating Feminazi means that every word I say will be twisted to fit your convictions of me. You both have no room in your hearts for anything other than this demonized portrait of me, so I absolutely decline explaining ANYTHING to either of you ever again.

Neither one of you ever see any of the kind and supporting messages that are 80% of my time here on Lit, or the advice and love I pour out into my own lives. To you both, I'm an angry, defensive, hostile and arrogant beast of a woman, a caricature of a Feminist. Nothing I say or do will ever change your minds about that.

There's no point in talking to someone when they're absolutely unmovable in their hatred of you.

WOW!!! You are way off!!! Not once did I feel that Satindesire was inflammatory in her posts. You on the other hand are still trying to throw gas on the fire. Other than you, there was only one other person that came across as someone with a huge chip on their shoulder. It was a female, but it wasn't SD.

I do thank you, though. Because of your dickishness I understand where Satindesire, Meekme, Bailadora, and others are coming from.

NightL gave the correct advice from the start of this thread. In fact, NightL has been "right on the mark" in all the posts I have read. So I don't believe it is to much of a stretch to say, that NightL is 100% correct in defense of Satindesire and dismissive of you.

Thank you so much. I deeply appreciate your words.

*respectful snip*
It seems like you're wedded to the idea that trans people should be treated according to how they were identified at birth, no matter what their individual circumstances are, no matter how much harm that might cause to them or anybody else, no matter how irrelevant the physical arguments actually are. My loved ones have already been hurt far too much by attitudes like that, and it exceeds my thresholds for what I can discuss politely, so at this point I'm putting you on ignore for good rather than elaborate on what sort of person it makes you in my eyes.

Take note of this, everyone. Trans dismissal hurts human beings who only want their identities respected. Sex and Gender are two ENTIRELY SEPARATE THINGS that dozens if not hundreds of cultures around the world have no problem accepting without bigotry or judgement or dismissal.

As much as this thread has turned into a flamewar, I wanted to note a positive here. KWB came in asking for advice on how to interact with women. I don't think the answers he got were the ones he was hoping to hear. But he listened, took it on board, and worked to understand where people were coming from.

IMHO that attitude is better than a lifetime's worth of "you have lovely eyes".

ABSOLUTELY. I agree 100% KWB has proved himself an empathic and trustworthy ally for women everywhere.

If you will notice, the only person that I actually flamed is SD. You're new here, so you haven't seen years of hypocrisy or the lack of credibility she carries with her comments. You don't see the way she blows up at people for the smallest things. You've never seen her wish cancer on someone because they were unfaithful to their spouse. You've never seen her defend that behaviour as, if you're offended, then fuck off. I have. I've heard her tell people these things. And her general attitude is, if you don't like it, then you're scared of a strong woman. I can't expect you to know these things. You have made your observations based on this thread and that's fine. But before you make your judgments on why I think she is a hellbeast, maybe you could have asked me why I call her a hellbeast. Maybe the hypocrisy if hearing her tell someone to die of cancer hits home with me. Maybe THAT kind of rhetoric is offensive to me. I bet you she's anti death penalty. But she would wish cancer on someone who does something unethical? I would take the death penalty 50 times over having cancer or having my worst enemy struggle with it. So, excuse me if I think it's a little hypocritical when she gets on her soapbox about guys making passes at her when I've heard her spew things far more hurtful from her lipstick stained mouth than anything a guy has probably ever said to her.

And of course, in his extreme hatred of me, he completely missed the fact that I sincerely apologized for saying that and acknowledged that it was EXTREMELY WRONG of me to say. I acknowledged that I was taking stress out from my personal life on someone else and I vowed to be far more empathic and compassionate in my responses since, AND I HAVE. This is the third or fourth time pmann has brought this up as a weapon against me, and every single time I sincerely apologize and remind them that I've apologized multiple times. I believe this situation happened nearly 2 years ago, but he obsessively still brings this up regardless of the changes I've made to my behavior on Lit. I fully own the fact that it was outrageously inappropriate and cruel to say that. And I never said anything like that again.

This won't be acknowledged by the people that hate me, though. They dismiss everything good I do and say as fake/lies, or are willfully blind to it in order to continue their campaign of outrageously offensive insults and needlessly rude behavior.

Not only did I NEVER give any women any "shit" who came here to say they liked being complimented and catcalled, I said several times that some women would be okay with it. But did he notice that? No. Again, anything I say or even DON'T SAY is twisted by him to demonize me to other people.

Everyone reading this should note that not once have I called any of these people names, insulted them or flamed them. I have tried my utmost to remain completely respectful even in my anger in this thread.

But Yeah, I'M the bad, mean, insulting person.

 

[Mr_Jon_Thon]

The very fact that you and Pmann are obsessively convinced that I'm a man-hating Feminazi means that every word I say will be twisted to fit your convictions of me. You both have no room in your hearts for anything other than this demonized portrait of me, so I absolutely decline explaining ANYTHING to either of you ever again.

-snip-

It may simply be the way you put words together that gives you the man-hater vibe. Disagreement isn't necessarily an attack on your very existence, but you seem to take it that way. The problem with righteous indignation is it's rarely ever righteous.

 

[satindesire]

It may simply be the way you put words together that gives you the man-hater vibe. Disagreement isn't necessarily an attack on your very existence, but you seem to take it that way. The problem with righteous indignation is it's rarely ever righteous.

Tone Argument again.

"It’s cruel and ridiculous to expect a person to be calm and polite in response to an act of oppression. Marginalized people often do not have the luxury of emotionally distancing themselves from discussions on their rights and experiences.

Tone policing is the ultimate derailing tactic. When you tone police, you automatically shift the focus of the conversation away from what you or someone else did that was wrong, and onto the other person and their reaction. Tone policing is a way of not taking responsibility for fucking up, and it dismisses the other person’s position by framing it as being emotional and therefore irrational.

But being emotional does not make one’s points any less valid. It’s also important to note that, by tone policing, you not only refuse to examine your own oppressive behavior, but you also can blame that on the other person, because they were not “nice enough” to be listened to or taken seriously."

http://groupthink.jezebel.com/on-tone-policing-why-its-bullshit-and-why-you-need-to-1148310719

If you won't listen to someone who is passionate about a cause that affects not only herself, her two daughters, and all of her female friend and family members, you're not going to listen period.

Being nice and sweet never got us anywhere.

Plenty of people here can "hear and understand" me even when I'm at my angriest, and recognize that I haven't said ANYTHING to demonize "all men" -ever-.

 

[KrazyWhiteBoy]

The funniest thing about this post is that you are complimenting the eloquence of Night and the kindness of SD.

It's okay that you don't like me. You have a different view than me. And that's okay. I will not call you a misogynist or anything for it.

If you will notice, the only person that I actually flamed is SD. You're new here, so you haven't seen years of hypocrisy or the lack of credibility she carries with her comments. You don't see the way she blows up at people for the smallest things. You've never seen her wish cancer on someone because they were unfaithful to their spouse. You've never seen her defend that behaviour as, if you're offended, then fuck off. I have. I've heard her tell people these things. And her general attitude is, if you don't like it, then you're scared of a strong woman. I can't expect you to know these things. You have made your observations based on this thread and that's fine. But before you make your judgments on why I think she is a hellbeast, maybe you could have asked me why I call her a hellbeast. Maybe the hypocrisy if hearing her tell someone to die of cancer hits home with me. Maybe THAT kind of rhetoric is offensive to me. I bet you she's anti death penalty. But she would wish cancer on someone who does something unethical? I would take the death penalty 50 times over having cancer or having my worst enemy struggle with it. So, excuse me if I think it's a little hypocritical when she gets on her soapbox about guys making passes at her when I've heard her spew things far more hurtful from her lipstick stained mouth than anything a guy has probably ever said to her.

And Night and I, as tense as it may seem with us here in our disagreements, have always been friendly. We disagree here. He thinks I'm a dick on this thread I'm sure. But I don't think that will last forever. Maybe he feels differently. I'll let him speak to that.

But all in all, it seems like I've been helpful to you. So I'll take that compliment. Thank you, sir. You are too kind.

I will NOT judge you in any way and I won't judge anyone else based on anything I read here. I have enjoyed this site for years and now I have found another side of it. I will continue to enjoy it, because it helps me escape from real life, like any other literature I read. If I learn something along the way, mores the better.

I call things the way I see them. I can be described as brutally honest. If you want to know how I feel about something, just ask. But be for warned, I may hurt your feelings. To me, posting on a public forum is just like asking me directly.

My wife is a beast cancer survivor, so I agree, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but again I'm not going to judge. I'm here to read and be enlightened, or just get myself off.

 

[KrazyWhiteBoy]

The one thing about reading something instead of hearing it, is the assumption of the tone the person intended. I had a boss that I didn't like, and every time he emailed or texted me, I thought it was a personal attack. When I showed the emails to others, they laughed and said my perception was distorted. The next few emails I received from him, I made a concerted effort to read them with a neutral attitude. I started laughing at myself. Try it! Read something and try to really think about your own attitude as you read it. Did you read it, hearing an angry writer or a writer just trying to converse?

 

[KrazyWhiteBoy]

It may simply be the way you put words together that gives you the man-hater vibe. Disagreement isn't necessarily an attack on your very existence, but you seem to take it that way. The problem with righteous indignation is it's rarely ever righteous.

I've read SD's posts, and she didn't come across as man hating to me. There was a person that posted something and I called that person man-hating. Perception. It's amazing how we all perceive things differently.

 

[Lord Pmann]

Not to be argumentative, but what about her post clicked with you? The fact that she was actually attacked? (For which, I offer you my sincerest sympathies, MeekMe ).

Yes, of course I will tell you.

I didn't mean to say that it was only hers I have taken to heart. You and I have talked here and in PM about it and your points are understandable. I've heard everyone's comments and taken them all. Even those with which I disagree.

I've thought Bramble's opinions have been way off. But I've read them and listened. I just completely disagree.

What I like about her post and even the conversations that I've had with you is the fact that it gives an actual reason for a negative reaction. Not just, "I shouldn't have to put up with his shit." That's what I like about the post and your pouts. While I may not understand or agree with it all, it's your experiences and they come from real places and feelings. It's not because you have a chip in your shoulder. It's because you have real reservations and feelings and it's not about flexing your vagina.

 

[Lord Pmann]

I will NOT judge you in any way and I won't judge anyone else based on anything I read here. I have enjoyed this site for years and now I have found another side of it. I will continue to enjoy it, because it helps me escape from real life, like any other literature I read. If I learn something along the way, mores the better.

I call things the way I see them. I can be described as brutally honest. If you want to know how I feel about something, just ask. But be for warned, I may hurt your feelings. To me, posting on a public forum is just like asking me directly.

My wife is a beast cancer survivor, so I agree, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but again I'm not going to judge. I'm here to read and be enlightened, or just get myself off.

I'm incredibly honest. And, again, if you look through the thread you'll see my only beef is with her. She's just a horrible person. Maybe she's a good mother or wife or daughter. I don't know. But how she portrays herself here... It is pretty fucking awful.

I realize you were calling it as you see it. And if this was the only interaction you'd ever seen with me, you might think I'm just a douche. I'm actually delightful.

I don't even give a shit that she said that about cancer. We all say things we shouldn't. I have had to apologize on here before. To Night, in fact. But when SD was confronted with her offensive comments, it was like we were ridiculous for saying that could be offensive. And then for her to call other people out because things they say like "nice ass"? That's hypocrisy of the worst kind. The two are not even comparable.

 

[Mr_Jon_Thon]

I've read SD's posts, and she didn't come across as man hating to me. There was a person that posted something and I called that person man-hating. Perception. It's amazing how we all perceive things differently.

This thread's gone full circle. From compliments in the real world taken the wrong way, to tone deaf posters not aware how they're perceived. I'll give it four stars.

 

[Lord Pmann]

Nobody is "born as a man". We're all born as tiny defenseless babies, naked and covered in blood. If status at birth is your criterion, send 'em all to a maternity hospital.



Okay, just so we're absolutely clear on this: even if we were talking an eighteen-year-old trans woman on HRT who was five foot nothing, willowy-thin and gorgeous, you're saying you'd still send her to a men's prison.

But if it was somebody like Buck Angel, presumably by the same standard you'd send them to a women's prison?

(BTW, if we're segregating prisoners by chromosomes, are we going to build separate prisons for all the XXYs and XYYs and XOs and mosaic/chimeras etc out there? Based on population incidences, there are likely to be at least ten thousand people in the US prison population who aren't pure XX or XY, and possibly a lot more; it's still not at all clear how common chimerism is.)



You are saying that no matter what a trans woman's identity is, or even her body, she ought to be treated as a man based on the circumstances of birth. That certainly seems like "dismissal" in my book.



That's arguable; depending on which penologists you talk to, the purpose of prison might be rehabilitation, or to prevent them from committing future crimes. Or if you're being cynical, to provide cheap labour for companies that run prisons for profit.

But even if you're with those who think the primary punishment of prison is punishment, there's a prohibition in the US Constitution against "cruel and unusual" punishment; sending women to men's prison qualifies.

Anyway, you've already said this is not about size; as far as I can see the main "safety" angles here are the obvious implications of sending female-bodied people who identify as female to a male prison (and heavily-muscled trans guys to female prisons). You may well have met one big strong trans woman; she's not typical.

Here's Avery Edison, who was detained in a male prison after a visa snafu.

Here's Jane Doe, a sixteen-year-old trans girl who'd been sexually abused since age five, who the CT prison system wanted to send to a male prison. (She's now been held for months in solitary, in an adult prison, without charge.)

These are the consequences of the system you're advocating.



Some prisoners are bigger and stronger than others. I think it's shitty that the prison system can't adequately protect the safety of inmates, and I'd love it if they did a better job at that. But "sex at birth" is an extremely unreliable way to do it.



I've already cited a bunch of doctors who study this stuff for a living, who've stated that trans women on HRT do not have a physical advantage over women. As far as I know you're not a doctor, and by your own account you don't know the details of this particular woman's medical situation, so no, you don't know what the reason is. You're dismissing a bucketload of medical evidence in favour of your own uninformed certainty.

And you've already acknowledged that you'd apply the exact same policy to any trans woman regardless of her physical prowess, so I'm not sure why you keep invoking this one woman as an example, instead of talking about people like the terrified sixteen-year-old who's been repeatedly raped in her short life and is now being told the state wants to house her with male prisoners.

It seems like you're wedded to the idea that trans people should be treated according to how they were identified at birth, no matter what their individual circumstances are, no matter how much harm that might cause to them or anybody else, no matter how irrelevant the physical arguments actually are. My loved ones have already been hurt far too much by attitudes like that, and it exceeds my thresholds for what I can discuss politely, so at this point I'm putting you on ignore for good rather than elaborate on what sort of person it makes you in my eyes.

So did you want me to answer your questions or not?

 

[Que]

Don't you find it offensive that he thinks you need defending though? That maybe you're just a poor woman who needs a KnightL in shining armour? What makes that less offensive than a compliment?

Serious question because to me that idea is much more offensive than a random compliment.

That is not the impression you gave me whilst complementing my sleek lance....

 

[NightL]

Yes, of course I will tell you.

I didn't mean to say that it was only hers I have taken to heart. You and I have talked here and in PM about it and your points are understandable. I've heard everyone's comments and taken them all. Even those with which I disagree.

I've thought Bramble's opinions have been way off. But I've read them and listened. I just completely disagree.

What I like about her post and even the conversations that I've had with you is the fact that it gives an actual reason for a negative reaction. Not just, "I shouldn't have to put up with his shit." That's what I like about the post and your pouts. While I may not understand or agree with it all, it's your experiences and they come from real places and feelings. It's not because you have a chip in your shoulder. It's because you have real reservations and feelings and it's not about flexing your vagina.

People disagree, as I have done very much with how I see you have handled yourself in this thread. Of course we are likely to communicate positively and with mirth in the future, however I will hold strong to my values concerning the subject matters of this thread and indeed how people have been treated.

Again I have to hold to my values and raise issue with points within this last post. For the following there are two things I wish to point out:

"is the fact that it gives an actual reason for a negative reaction. Not just, "I shouldn't have to put up with his shit."​

If someone reacts to harassment it can not have a blanket "negative reaction" statement thrown at it. How this thread started, for my behalf I viewed the reactions previously discussed, and highlighted by the video I linked, as positive reactions for the situation indicated. For people who are being victimised and harassed to be further criticised by the broader community for daring to react is a very sad indictment of the society we do live in. I will take this to an extreme example, the above is the very narrow edge of what leads to honour deaths in other cultures.

The second point I wish to make of the above quote is that not one person on this thread who you view as "Not just, "I shouldn't have to put up with his shit."" has presented their views without very clear attempts to justify their reasoning, either through personal experience or the offering of resource material and quoting opinions of others.

"it's your experiences and they come from real places and feelings" implies that you are being very selective in who you believe have experiences from real places and feelings. You are being a very biased judge and jury here.

"It's not because you have a chip in your shoulder. It's because you have real reservations and feelings and it's not about flexing your vagina." First you are once again resorting to insults and appearing to dismiss any one who disagrees with you as having no "real reservations and feelings". Then "and it's not about flexing your vagina" that is exceedingly insulting to the utmost and is the very premise of where this thread started out from. It is a line I would expect a perpetrator of harassment would use when told to "Fuck off" after their first salvo was responded to in an appropriate manner.

I am not in any way suggesting that you engage in street harassment but please take a step back and take a moment to view how your intent may be interpreted before you hit the Submit button. I thoroughly recommend the Preview Post button, I use that one myself when I feel I am becoming emotive over a subject - often actually.

 

[KrazyWhiteBoy]

I realize you were calling it as you see it. And if this was the only interaction you'd ever seen with me, you might think I'm just a douche. I'm actually delightful.

And a very MODEST douche you are!!!!!!

 

[fire_breeze]

Perhaps one of the issues that seems to exacerbate the problem in the English-speaking world is the fact that we seem to equate the feminine, whether it is the anatomy or perceived feminine qualities, as being weak and less-than-a-strong human. Such association is hugely damaging to the fight of human equality. It diminishes the value of women by being descriptor of 'weakness', and it damages men as they are taught that feelings are not 'manly', and therefore in order to be more of a man, they must conquer what is 'feminine' (within themselves or in the actual society).

I wonder if this itself contributes, if not the actual source, of much of the 'gender argument' and the frighteningly high number of harassment towards women.

I am reading this thread closely and with great interest, and I have noticed several posters using such language indiscriminately and I am positive that it was done unconsciously. However, the terminology we use is a reflection of the society we live in, which neatly ties into the debate that is raging on.

Just an observation, really. Nothing more.

 

[Lord Pmann]

People disagree, as I have done very much with how I see you have handled yourself in this thread. Of course we are likely to communicate positively and with mirth in the future, however I will hold strong to my values concerning the subject matters of this thread and indeed how people have been treated.

Again I have to hold to my values and raise issue with points within this last post. For the following there are two things I wish to point out:

"is the fact that it gives an actual reason for a negative reaction. Not just, "I shouldn't have to put up with his shit."​

If someone reacts to harassment it can not have a blanket "negative reaction" statement thrown at it. How this thread started, for my behalf I viewed the reactions previously discussed, and highlighted by the video I linked, as positive reactions for the situation indicated. For people who are being victimised and harassed to be further criticised by the broader community for daring to react is a very sad indictment of the society we do live in. I will take this to an extreme example, the above is the very narrow edge of what leads to honour deaths in other cultures.

The second point I wish to make of the above quote is that not one person on this thread who you view as "Not just, "I shouldn't have to put up with his shit."" has presented their views without very clear attempts to justify their reasoning, either through personal experience or the offering of resource material and quoting opinions of others.

"it's your experiences and they come from real places and feelings" implies that you are being very selective in who you believe have experiences from real places and feelings. You are being a very biased judge and jury here.

"It's not because you have a chip in your shoulder. It's because you have real reservations and feelings and it's not about flexing your vagina." First you are once again resorting to insults and appearing to dismiss any one who disagrees with you as having no "real reservations and feelings". Then "and it's not about flexing your vagina" that is exceedingly insulting to the utmost and is the very premise of where this thread started out from. It is a line I would expect a perpetrator of harassment would use when told to "Fuck off" after their first salvo was responded to in an appropriate manner.

I am not in any way suggesting that you engage in street harassment but please take a step back and take a moment to view how your intent may be interpreted before you hit the Submit button. I thoroughly recommend the Preview Post button, I use that one myself when I feel I am becoming emotive over a subject - often actually.

I will offer apologies to anyone to whom may have been offended, other than SD. I've given my reasons for why I DO dismiss her posts. It's hard to take to heart anything a self-righteous hypocrite does.

There is a quote I've heard attributed to Oscar Wilde before. I don't know if it is even his. And I don't remember it exactly. But it is basically this...

"The hypocrisy of the self righteous is far worse than the sin it condemns."

So yes, for the reasons listed above I have been dismissive to SD. If anyone can't understand why, then read what I wrote ten more times or PM me and I'll explain it further.

 

[Lord Pmann]

"it's your experiences and they come from real places and feelings" implies that you are being very selective in who you believe have experiences from real places and feelings. You are being a very biased judge and jury here.

I am being very selective indeed. I'm saying that, regardless of whether I understand them or not, the feelings of the people here are valid, with the exception I listed above. I am being a very biased judge and jury.

Bailadora asked me why this post was a learning lesson. I told her.

The reason I'm selective is because the person whose feelings I've dismissed is someone who makes shit up. She exaggerates the hell out of things. She perceives people as flirting with her when they are not. She thinks everyone loves her and is just longing to get a piece of her.

Part of my conditioning is that she's said that shit to me, when it couldn't be farther from the truth. I've seen her take the smallest thing someone says and turn it into harassment. So yes, I DO dismiss her experiences because the ones I've seen and actually been a part of are horse shit. And I'm being kind when I say that.