who determines what poetry gets published at Lit?

[poetedge5455]

There is something distinctly poetic about this posting. It rumbles along the runway, leaps into the air, flies through a mosaic of clouds and then lands firmly on the head of a pinpoint that clarifies exactly what the writer seeks to convey.

Bravo!

This is the kind of writing I like. Therefore, it must be literate.

LMAO!. I knew there was a reason I liked you. :> if only you were my publisher, lol.

 

[butters]

Well speaking as one who is hundreds if not thousands of rungs below literary capability yet not really interested in the 'lower brow' dimensions either, I do very much appreciate the wide parameters within which to fuck around; sometimes something works and sometimes it doesn't. There's also the option of removing and replacing, or even clearing all works and starting over. So I am indeed grateful that Lit allows someone like me to present a few tinkerings that possess no real literary worth.

Though unfamiliar with your work, I don't buy into your opening sentence. And while understanding you like the options, aren't the forums the place for trying stuff out? For polishing before publication? The trouble is, as I see it, that once a piece is published most other places won't accept it as a submission since they want first publication rights. Of course, this might not be a concern for many who do submit to Lit but you can see how it might put off other writers from subbing material in the first place. I don't think this is elitist, just a different way around things. Horses for courses and all that jazz.

+
... 'an absurd and uninteresting fantasy which was rubbish and dull' -iA publisher rejecting Golding's Lord of the Flies.

*snip*

I agree there is a lot of stuff in print all over that I think is rubbish, but I squirm a bit at ' a good poem is a good poem' and saying that people have no idea about what a poem is. Besides speaking about a specific form (and even then there are 'masters' who break those rules wantonly, Shakespeare's sonnet 30 has a line with 11 syllables ( I sigh the lack of many a thing I sought), and the form is named after him ,lol), then please tell me what a poem is and is not.

Opinions are only that, and will vary, but (imo) a good poem stands out from the crowd and offers something above and beyond the rest. Unfortunately too many critters are more about making a name for themselves on the back of poets' creativity, and many editors/publishers only reject a piece because its not what their particular brand of readers will buy - economics have to come into it of you're running a business. And there are those who haven't much of a clue about what they're looking at in the first place. As for form, the old adage of "learn the rules first then throw them away" is frequently sound advice. A piece written in strict form, adhering to every rule that can apply to it without waver is not automatically a 'good poem'. To use the form as the frame for a poem, to get the best from what you have to say, is the way to make it work for you. To use it as a restriction can only serve to confine creativity. If an editor is too pedantic and rejects a piece that's clearly a brilliant poem simply because it has overstepped (deliberately) some rule of its form is a fool. imo As to what a poem is or is not, I think we need a whole new thread for that discussion. You might be surprised at how many people agree on the basics.

Gardner's Art of Fiction is a must read for aspiring writers because it contains wonderful advice on structure, but I found his opinions on 'who can write what' ridiculous. Only an educated person can wrote a truly great story? Really? I would cite examples disproving that elitist dribble but I am typing on a blackberry, lol.
I agree with you, and don't even have a blackberry

Or perhaps a soup can, or a cow skull isn't really art. And a song should never end on a dominant seventh chord. And using the diminished scale means you worship Satan. (Warhol, O'Keefe, Mozart, Beethoven, respective sinners there)
how do you stand about a pile of bricks?

Let's take it easy defining good and bad as if there is a universal concrete ideal we can turn to to back up our OPINIONS. We have every right to them, but let us remember the difference.

No universal ideal, but I still believe most of us here can tell a decent poem - or the makings of one if it's a work in progress - from a rubbish one, right off the bat. I'd be quite worried if it weren't the case. And of course opinions are subjective. They can't be anything BUT!


I once bought a small press mag that contained what I felt were just terrible poems and stories. Yet in it Yvonne Navarro was published. If you don't know her and like dark fiction, look her up.
I wrote her telling her how much I liked the story, and asked why she chose to be published in such a rag. She said that story was one of her personal faves, but was rejected by all her usual outlets (she has been in multiple anthologies). She said stories she felt were inferior to that one had won awards. Editing and editors are subjective everywhere.

What a great discovery. I love finding writers who stir my mind, my heart, even my subjective soul. Trawling the web seeking wonderful writers (and later musicians/artists/those practising other art-forms) was how I found the people I built my site. It meant anyone coming to the site was guaranteed an array of quality material they didn't have to wade knee-deep in muck to discover. That alone attracted other writers and made it a hive of creativity - lots of buzz. Of course each site does things differently. It'd be boring otherwise. And it wasn't elitist at all, since we had the non-published alongside award-winners, with no hierarchy and no snobbery. Personally, I cannot abide that other element of many other writing sites -the goddamned snobbery. The fact of the matter is that your example shows there are quality writers out there whose work gets 'lost' to many eyes because it gets published in the only outlets it can find.

I had a story that received one rejection lauding the first ten pages, but saying the end trailed off and was unsatisfying. I didn't change a word, sent it off again somewhere else, and was told the middle and end were superb, but the editor could barel get through the 'slow beginning'. So, with that advice, what do I do to 'fix' it, lol. Who do I believe, because someone is wrong, right?

Wrong.

Absolutely. Any changes must feel right to the author, first and foremost. Personally, I'd never expect a writer to change their work because of my suggestions. It has to come from inside them. SOMETIMES the edits will be sound, but it's a case of always always ALWAYS consider the source of those comments first and the reasoning behind them. When you're asking someone to invest time/money into you by editing and then publishing, then they will be considering what their readers will buy. If you want them to publish you, make the changes. If you don't, and feel it would be bastardising your work, then stick to your guns and hope to find a publisher who will like it as is. Trouble is, sometimes we're too close - emotionally or on a time-line - to see how suggested improvements might actually benefit our work. This is what I said before about wishing some of the pieces I had accepted had, in fact, been rejected with some good advice. Byron wrote something so very true about how we're so keen to get our work in print we rush to the publisher before the ink's barely dried on the paper.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I stayed here because of the community behind the curtain as much as anything that was pushed out naked onto the stage! I tried Edit Red but didn't find it to my taste, for the most part I found those that posted regularly were not the least bit interested in critique and carried on their merry way churning out the same thing over and over again and getting patted on the back for it. After all why try something new when you receive 'love' every time you post? Some of my stuff on here has bombed dreadfully and I got smacked for it, sure I got the huff at the time (it was my baby sob!) but critique made me pull my socks up and try for something better.
There is far better poetry written straight onto this messageboard than any dirty ditties that get submitted ad nauseum and for that reason I'm hanging on in here

 

[butters]

I stayed here because of the community behind the curtain as much as anything that was pushed out naked onto the stage! I tried Edit Red but didn't find it to my taste, for the most part I found those that posted regularly were not the least bit interested in critique and carried on their merry way churning out the same thing over and over again and getting patted on the back for it. After all why try something new when you receive 'love' every time you post? Some of my stuff on here has bombed dreadfully and I got smacked for it, sure I got the huff at the time (it was my baby sob!) but critique made me pull my socks up and try for something better.
There is far better poetry written straight onto this messageboard than any dirty ditties that get submitted ad nauseum and for that reason I'm hanging on in here

Community makes sites work, that's for sure. I also agree with you about the stuff here on the forums being better poetry for the most part than that actually gaining a publishing 'credential' by being accepted for Lit. Kinda sad, really.

I wish you'd have known Edit Red a two, three years back, UYS. It was amazing. Well, to be fair, I speak more of the forum and the poetry there than other parts of the site. Today seems to be about 'everything's lovely, to crit is negative, and all the children must be held in awe, no matter what they write. to suggest anything else is disruptive and nasty'.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Community makes sites work, that's for sure. I also agree with you about the stuff here on the forums being better poetry for the most part than that actually gaining a publishing 'credential' by being accepted for Lit. Kinda sad, really.

I wish you'd have known Edit Red a two, three years back, UYS. It was amazing. Well, to be fair, I speak more of the forum and the poetry there than other parts of the site. Today seems to be about 'everything's lovely, to crit is negative, and all the children must be held in awe, no matter what they write. to suggest anything else is disruptive and nasty'.

It's not only poetry sites that have their own cosy little cliques unfortunately, I joined one for my breed of dog and the hogwash they were posting made my blood boil and fear for the safety of the breed. Ermmm they deleted my posts when I pointed out the error of their ways (I was told oh so politely to stop being disruptive)! It's kind of sad really when a website will bear no interference (especially of the truth!!) so as to not rock the boat and upset it's regulars. Where are you Senna you haven't yelled at me for over a year and I (yes I admit it!) miss you!

 

[lorencino]

From all of the above

Can I safely assume, then, that my presence here at literotica is a sign of good judgment and good fortune? At this point within unfolding eternity, that is?

 

[bflagsst]

Community makes sites work, that's for sure. I also agree with you about the stuff here on the forums being better poetry for the most part than that actually gaining a publishing 'credential' by being accepted for Lit. Kinda sad, really.

I wish you'd have known Edit Red a two, three years back, UYS. It was amazing. Well, to be fair, I speak more of the forum and the poetry there than other parts of the site. Today seems to be about 'everything's lovely, to crit is negative, and all the children must be held in awe, no matter what they write. to suggest anything else is disruptive and nasty'.

You can 'submit' poems here and delete them, usually takes a day or two and the ghosts in the machine take your poem down. People take them down and publish them to first publish magazines all the time. There's really no difference between posting a poem on the message board and submitting one, it just takes longer to get the submitted one deleted. Both are considered 'published' in the silly sense of the word.

I don't consider the stuff I have posted on my profile published material. It's usually just leftover poems that I don't want to try and publish but still want to share. I don't know that poetry publishing credentials means anything at the moment. The universe of people reading is too small. A credible publisher won't even read your MS unless you've already won numerous awards for the text. To win awards for a MS you have to pay money to get jokers to read your work. I can't see paying money to share or be recognized for something I've created, seems backwards.

 

[lorencino]

snip

I don't know that poetry publishing credentials means anything at the moment. The universe of people reading is too small. A credible publisher won't even read your MS unless you've already won numerous awards for the text. To win awards for a MS you have to pay money to get jokers to read your work. I can't see paying money to share or be recognized for something I've created, seems backwards.

It's sad, but true.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Have just submitted a dirty ditty but it's a Limerick for Survivor so please forgive me

 

[butters]

Can I safely assume, then, that my presence here at literotica is a sign of good judgment and good fortune? At this point within unfolding eternity, that is?

why not?

You can 'submit' poems here and delete them, usually takes a day or two and the ghosts in the machine take your poem down. People take them down and publish them to first publish magazines all the time. There's really no difference between posting a poem on the message board and submitting one, it just takes longer to get the submitted one deleted. Both are considered 'published' in the silly sense of the word.

I don't consider the stuff I have posted on my profile published material. It's usually just leftover poems that I don't want to try and publish but still want to share. I don't know that poetry publishing credentials means anything at the moment. The universe of people reading is too small. A credible publisher won't even read your MS unless you've already won numerous awards for the text. To win awards for a MS you have to pay money to get jokers to read your work. I can't see paying money to share or be recognized for something I've created, seems backwards.

Publishers I've spoken with tend not to count poetry on a forum as published but more a work-shopped piece in progress - depends on the publisher and the nature of the site. Having said that, to be quite sure some sites offer facilities to post work for feedback that's not open to the general public. Some of us will sub work that's appeared elsewhere first having taken that piece down but be aware the length of time cached pages are available for scrutiny. If a publisher''s going to be fussy, then the fact a work's appeared on Lit first, under their 'published poetry' section, could prove problematic. I really do not know how frequently this proves to be the case. Maybe another editor or publisher out there reading this could fill us in on the facts.

I don't know that poetry publishing credentials means anything at the moment

ummm - depends upon which groups of poets your hanging with at the time, I'm guessing. It means an awful lot to some, and to some smaller publishers looking at submissions: a string of work accepted by other places - zines or for books - would often appear to have some sort of kudos. Lots of magazines, especially, seem to like being able to quote the track record of those they are showcasing. I think they think it makes them appear artier, or more erudite or something. lol. It's all about promoting their own product, isnt it?

To win awards for a MS you have to pay money to get jokers to read your work. I can't see paying money to share or be recognized for something I've created, seems backwards

And this is where e-zines really come into their own, imo. Some are extremely good quality and offer outlets for the unknown, often previously unpublished writer to show work to the general public. There are more ways to skin a cat and some of these e-zines have made quite a stir in poetry circles, often having developed enough to have gone into print. But their online presence is really where it's at since they can reach a far wider audience than a print version would and without the crippling overheads.

 

[hmmnmm]

Though unfamiliar with your work, I don't buy into your opening sentence. And while understanding you like the options, aren't the forums the place for trying stuff out? For polishing before publication? The trouble is, as I see it, that once a piece is published most other places won't accept it as a submission since they want first publication rights. Of course, this might not be a concern for many who do submit to Lit but you can see how it might put off other writers from subbing material in the first place. I don't think this is elitist, just a different way around things. Horses for courses and all that jazz.

You make good points here.
I'm sure if more stringent standards and terms were in place (for example, once the piece be posted it could not be deleted) I would think a lot longer and harder before dropping a ditty in the submission box and would probably be more likely to get involved in the forum exercises, which I often tell myself I ought to do more of, but follow-through has always been a problem.

And if real world publication is one's intent then your concerns make even more perfect sense.

But I long ago accepted the realistic likelihood that I'll never be published, and I found the resignation created a freedom to just mess around which is what I really like to do most. Follow-through. Finishing. Can't do it. Will never do it.

So the person who will never be published yet who enjoys sketching and scribbling will find a joint like Lit quite appealing, because it allows a sort of skirting around the intimidating publication edifice; like an open air flea market or something and I get a little table on the quiet outskirts. Once in a while somebody might stop by and find something on the table strikes their fancy; usually one of several versions of one general idea, so if they really want a piece of it, they can have it... maybe trade for something they made, or a bottle of wine.

 

[butters]

You make good points here.
I'm sure if more stringent standards and terms were in place (for example, once the piece be posted it could not be deleted) I would think a lot longer and harder before dropping a ditty in the submission box and would probably be more likely to get involved in the forum exercises, which I often tell myself I ought to do more of, but follow-through has always been a problem.

And if real world publication is one's intent then your concerns make even more perfect sense.

But I long ago accepted the realistic likelihood that I'll never be published, and I found the resignation created a freedom to just mess around which is what I really like to do most. Follow-through. Finishing. Can't do it. Will never do it.

So the person who will never be published yet who enjoys sketching and scribbling will find a joint like Lit quite appealing, because it allows a sort of skirting around the intimidating publication edifice; like an open air flea market or something and I get a little table on the quiet outskirts. Once in a while somebody might stop by and find something on the table strikes their fancy; usually one of several versions of one general idea, so if they really want a piece of it, they can have it... maybe trade for something they made, or a bottle of wine.

I'm all for barter

 

[CharleyH]

I've not subbed any, and don't know if I shall, but does anyone know who determines what gets published?

Poetry comes in all shapes and sizes, and this site promotes the non-erotic alongside its racier cousin BUT what about quality? There are some gems that shine out but so much pretty lousy - no, let's be straight here - so much absolutely terrible terrible material calling itself poetry being published it's embarrassing to read.

Now, each site runs things its own way. I accept that. But I wonder how many poets are put off from subbing (in the non- D/s sense) their work to a site that will publish almost anything with apparently no regard to quality.

When it comes to 'quality', I'm afraid poetry suffers from the same thing that prose does on Lit. Quality matters insofar as it is readable and adheres to the rules of Lit. It's a public forum, where you can have a huge readership - well, not that huge for poetry, but... It's up to each author to make use of it in the best way possible. It may not be a great end-product venue, but can be a precious tool.

 

[Angeline]

When it comes to 'quality', I'm afraid poetry suffers from the same thing that prose does on Lit. Quality matters insofar as it is readable and adheres to the rules of Lit. It's a public forum, where you can have a huge readership - well, not that huge for poetry, but... It's up to each author to make use of it in the best way possible. It may not be a great end-product venue, but can be a precious tool.

Imho there are a few good reasons to submit here. First it's a great online repository for your writing, which can be added to, reduced or edited easily. Just make sure you have a back up copy of each poem you submit. Second, your poem goes into the digital ether to be praised or pilloried...or ignored, but no matter what you'll learn something from having exposed it to the world. And very likely you'll meet some kindred souls, like us here, who happily natter on about poems and writing and even sex.

It's not a good idea to think of Lit like, you know, New Yorker or Atlantic Monthly or even some way lesser internet poetry journal. Because it's not. The "quality" is judged very differently here and generally has more to do with the tits and ass quotient, anyway. Oh, and that makes me think of a third reason. There's something about the porny atmosphere here that makes all writing somehow freer. People seem more willing to experiment here than other places, maybe because they know they can publish just about anything. That freedom can result in a lot of growth.

Tell Hyndey I made her an apple upside down ginger cake, and all she needs to do is fly to Maine to get it.

 

[hmmnmm]

Imho there are a few good reasons to submit here. First it's a great online repository for your writing, which can be added to, reduced or edited easily. Just make sure you have a back up copy of each poem you submit. Second, your poem goes into the digital ether to be praised or pilloried...or ignored, but no matter what you'll learn something from having exposed it to the world. And very likely you'll meet some kindred souls, like us here, who happily natter on about poems and writing and even sex.

It's not a good idea to think of Lit like, you know, New Yorker or Atlantic Monthly or even some way lesser internet poetry journal. Because it's not. The "quality" is judged very differently here and generally has more to do with the tits and ass quotient, anyway. Oh, and that makes me think of a third reason. There's something about the porny atmosphere here that makes all writing somehow freer. People seem more willing to experiment here than other places, maybe because they know they can publish just about anything. That freedom can result in a lot of growth.

Tell Hyndey I made her an apple upside down ginger cake, and all she needs to do is fly to Maine to get it.

bolded porny part

 

[Epmd607]

why not?



Publishers I've spoken with tend not to count poetry on a forum as published but more a work-shopped piece in progress - depends on the publisher and the nature of the site. Having said that, to be quite sure some sites offer facilities to post work for feedback that's not open to the general public. Some of us will sub work that's appeared elsewhere first having taken that piece down but be aware the length of time cached pages are available for scrutiny. If a publisher''s going to be fussy, then the fact a work's appeared on Lit first, under their 'published poetry' section, could prove problematic. I really do not know how frequently this proves to be the case. Maybe another editor or publisher out there reading this could fill us in on the facts.



ummm - depends upon which groups of poets your hanging with at the time, I'm guessing. It means an awful lot to some, and to some smaller publishers looking at submissions: a string of work accepted by other places - zines or for books - would often appear to have some sort of kudos. Lots of magazines, especially, seem to like being able to quote the track record of those they are showcasing. I think they think it makes them appear artier, or more erudite or something. lol. It's all about promoting their own product, isnt it?



And this is where e-zines really come into their own, imo. Some are extremely good quality and offer outlets for the unknown, often previously unpublished writer to show work to the general public. There are more ways to skin a cat and some of these e-zines have made quite a stir in poetry circles, often having developed enough to have gone into print. But their online presence is really where it's at since they can reach a far wider audience than a print version would and without the crippling overheads.

I think we've talked about poetry magazines before. I ran one and edited a few others. Maybe it's different in Englalaland, but I don't see publishers of any size accepting manuscripts, even by winners of poetry prizes. The National Poetry Series is notorious for their operation. If you weren't a student or don't sit on a selection board at another publishing award or magazine, you won't get published. The professors of poetry and the scams of the print-on-demand folks pretty much buried poetry over the last couple decades, changing cultural attitudes are important too. I don't really read e-zines or print magazines anymore. The work that's accepted each month or quarter isn't interesting to me. Self-aware prose poetry needs to go to hell.

 

[Angeline]

bolded porny part

Thank you?

 

[Epmd607]

...

It's not a good idea to think of Lit like, you know, New Yorker or Atlantic Monthly or even some way lesser internet poetry journal. Because it's not. The "quality" is judged very differently here and generally has more to do with the tits and ass quotient, anyway. Oh, and that makes me think of a third reason. There's something about the porny atmosphere here that makes all writing somehow freer. People seem more willing to experiment here than other places, maybe because they know they can publish just about anything. That freedom can result in a lot of growth.

Tell Hyndey I made her an apple upside down ginger cake, and all she needs to do is fly to Maine to get it.

There is something deep in the gut funny about posting a serious love poem that you spent hours and days on, alongside someone who's posted "She's just a woman, a hole to be filled, if you don't like my rhymes, you might get killed" not quoting anyone exactly, just paraphrasing. The fact that this is a porno site and people are posting artistic achievements makes me smile.

 

[hmmnmm]

Thank you?

Yes

(it was a thank you)

Thank you.

 

[butters]

When it comes to 'quality', I'm afraid poetry suffers from the same thing that prose does on Lit. Quality matters insofar as it is readable and adheres to the rules of Lit. It's a public forum, where you can have a huge readership - well, not that huge for poetry, but... It's up to each author to make use of it in the best way possible. It may not be a great end-product venue, but can be a precious tool.

that's good advice to bear in mind. thanks for your reply

Imho there are a few good reasons to submit here. First it's a great online repository for your writing, which can be added to, reduced or edited easily. Just make sure you have a back up copy of each poem you submit. Second, your poem goes into the digital ether to be praised or pilloried...or ignored, but no matter what you'll learn something from having exposed it to the world. And very likely you'll meet some kindred souls, like us here, who happily natter on about poems and writing and even sex.

all good points and I'm glad you brought them up here, Angeline, especially for newer members to the forums. The most important aspects are in bold

It's not a good idea to think of Lit like, you know, New Yorker or Atlantic Monthly or even some way lesser internet poetry journal. Because it's not. The "quality" is judged very differently here and generally has more to do with the tits and ass quotient, anyway. Oh, and that makes me think of a third reason. There's something about the porny atmosphere here that makes all writing somehow freer. People seem more willing to experiment here than other places, maybe because they know they can publish just about anything. That freedom can result in a lot of growth. ...

Freedom to experiment is definitely a positive thing for writing!

 

[butters]

I think we've talked about poetry magazines before. I ran one and edited a few others. Maybe it's different in Englalaland, but I don't see publishers of any size accepting manuscripts, even by winners of poetry prizes. The National Poetry Series is notorious for their operation. If you weren't a student or don't sit on a selection board at another publishing award or magazine, you won't get published. The professors of poetry and the scams of the print-on-demand folks pretty much buried poetry over the last couple decades, changing cultural attitudes are important too. I don't really read e-zines or print magazines anymore. The work that's accepted each month or quarter isn't interesting to me. Self-aware prose poetry needs to go to hell.

That's a shame. I want to say 'you don't know what you're missing' but its a fact that I've not looked at any zines for two and a half years, most of which I was offline, but if they've gone that far downhill in such a short space of time I'll be absolutely gutted. And once again, some were far superior than others for both content and styling.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Tell Hyndey I made her an apple upside down ginger cake, and all she needs to do is fly to Maine to get it.

You have a natural knack for making something as wholesome as cake sound porny and free. That's the mark of a great poet.

(Earlier today I was reading Miles Davis's autobiography. I feel another Blue-Green poem coming)

 

[butters]

Congratulations and hello

Pleased to make your aquaintance, Lauren.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Thank you and likewise.

 

[Angeline]

You have a natural knack for making something as wholesome as cake sound porny and free. That's the mark of a great poet.

(Earlier today I was reading Miles Davis's autobiography. I feel another Blue-Green poem coming)

Well I do in your mind lol, but we've always understood each other.

Here is something for you and T to listen to.