Why do you cede or accept control outside the bedroom?

[JMohegan]

I guess my earlier point was this: if the pair are together BECAUSE he is superior to her and his goal is to teach her what he knows, it makes the relationship sound finite. At some point, it seems, she will outgrown him. Unless they get to a point where they learn together. It has been my experience with people in general that when they believe they are 'superior', whether they truly are or they aren't, they are not the kind of people who believe they have something to learn.

I'm sure that some people reading this may think that's a contradiction coming from someone who just stated that she was a 3 percenter. I don't believe it is for this specific reason: I know that I have a lot of knowledge about a lot of things, however, I also know that every person I meet has more knowledge than I about something. I know that I have something to learn from everyone I meet. For that reason alone, there is no one out there to whom I am superior. But the flip side of that is that there is no one out there who is superior to me. And now some people are saying, 'then you're not really a sub'. Well, whatever you want to believe is fine with me. In my opinion, there is a difference between a power exchange and superiority. Could just be my own definition of 'superior'.

Did I explain my thoughts better or did I just muddy the waters more?

I think I understood you well both times. I'm the one who needs to clarify.

Option 2: "I have a non-bedroom need to be guided/shaped/etc. by a person who possesses character traits or experiences that are superior to my own" is not the same thing as saying: "I seek a partner who is a superior human being."

As you and BiBunny have both pointed out, different people possess knowledge about different things. I'd like to add that there are different types of intelligence as well. The kind that gets you an impressive score on a Mensa test..... the kind that keeps you alive in the jungle (urban or wild)..... the kind that helps you get along well with other human beings..... etc.

I have learned more about life from guys who wouldn't last five minutes in the Admissions process at my college than I ever did from the renowned professors at the same.

The point of my comments here is not to convince you to embrace option 2, but rather to help you understand why it might create a wonderful opportunity for those who do.

Whether the dominant partner possesses superior intelligence, social skills, self-discipline, whatever, that's not the same thing as saying he/she is a superior human being. And given his/her greater aptitude, the opportunities to teach will only be limited by his/her imagination and the willingness of the submissive partner to learn.

 

[JMohegan]

Similar, but not exactly the same thing, I occasionally come down with a case of "Cliff Claven Disease".

Because of my many interests, and avid reading, I get bits and pieces of knowledge about nearly anything and everything. Then I open my mouth about what I know, and occasionally turn out to be egregiously full of shit. It's one of the reasons I have issues with humiliation play; I do just fine humiliating myself, thanks. Don't need any help.

LOL @ "Cliff Claven Disease".

 

[cati]

Option 2: "I have a non-bedroom need to be guided/shaped/etc. by a person who possesses character traits or experiences that are superior to my own" is not the same thing as saying: "I seek a partner who is a superior human being."

I understood exactly what you meant JM, let me give you a for instance.
My Dom is more intelligent than I am or so says the common IQ test found online.
He wins at Jeopardy and cards... but just by a fraction. He has a great memory for facts and doing math. While I have a University degree he does not, he still more knowledgeable when it comes to dealing with practical things esp. finances. I could go on but I think you all get the gist. I have never felt that he is a superior human being, but just maybe is better at some things than I am and yes I admire and respect him for that. If he wasn't "superior" in that respect I know I couldn't be in a relationship with him. If my partner was less intelligent than myself I would have a very real problem dealing with that person, espacially if he were trying to "prove" himself in some stupid way.
As far as people go...there is no-one who is more "superior" than the next person, just "different" in terms of life experiences, as you mentioned in your previous post and yes there is always something we could learn from that individual as well as admiring and having respect for them just because they are different.

 

[BeachGurl2]

As you and BiBunny have both pointed out, different people possess knowledge about different things. I'd like to add that there are different types of intelligence as well. The kind that gets you an impressive score on a Mensa test..... the kind that keeps you alive in the jungle (urban or wild)..... the kind that helps you get along well with other human beings..... etc.

I have learned more about life from guys who wouldn't last five minutes in the Admissions process at my college than I ever did from the renowned professors at the same.

Exactly the point I was making, only you said it a bit better than I did. My dad has a 10th grade education and has driven a truck since he was 16, but he's one of the 'smartest' people I know.

The point of my comments here is not to convince you to embrace option 2, but rather to help you understand why it might create a wonderful opportunity for those who do.

Whether the dominant partner possesses superior intelligence, social skills, self-discipline, whatever, that's not the same thing as saying he/she is a superior human being. And given his/her greater aptitude, the opportunities to teach will only be limited by his/her imagination and the willingness of the submissive partner to learn.

I think that your last sentence probably best describes the way I would approach things, and maybe even makes me lean toward choice # 2 more than I thought I might before - but would depend on the person and situation, I think. My hesitation came from the use 'superior', and was probably a bit of a baggage issue for me. (Read: extremely narcissistic ex-husband.) But taken in the context as you have described, very different from my original thoughts on that choice.

 

[shy slave]

Bump...

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Thanks for the bump shy

I picked the first choice because for me being controlled by Master in daily life is probably my main motivation. I do have a strong need to serve also so if I could have I would have chosen both options, just to be awkward.

Being controlled and serving Master are very closely linked for me and I don't think I could really separate my feelings for the two.

It's an interesting poll though

1 - I have a non-bedroom need to cede control, but will only relinquish it to a person whom I respect, trust, etc.

vs.

2 - I have a non-bedroom need to be guided/shaped/etc. by a person who possesses character traits or experiences that are superior to my own.

I wonder if you see these as different, and whether you perceive (as I do) that submissives generally tend to fall in one or the other of these groups? (That is a question addressed not just to you, Shy, but to anyone who would like to answer.)

Like other posters I don't really see Master as 'my superior.' It's a partnership of equals with a mutually beneficial power exchange. He always wins at chess, I kick his ass at scrabble. Neither one of us has a problem with going to the other for help and advice. I wouldn't want somebody who thought I was inferior to him as a person, that would be deeply insulting to me. Just as I accept his leading role in my life I accept the fact that even with a 'superior' sub like me to discuss things with, Master will make a few bad choices that I'll have to live with (without ever doing a 'told you so' dance.)

 

[HB1965]

There is only one person that I would do this for. Otherwise I am my own master outside the bedroom

 

[Netzach]

Since Bertrand is wrong and there IS apparently a small clay teapot orbiting the sun, and apparently the bottom I am with is multifaceted and I'm restless and more multifaceted than I'd thought, I can also say that assuredly for *my* relinquishment of control it is a reinforcement of the sexiness of doing what he likes and an enhancement to the fundamentally sexual nature of the liaison. Mostly.

That and the knowledge transfer thing.

As arrogant as this is going to sound, I do think he is one of the few people I've ever met who is smarter than I am about most things. Not some things or particular things, but most. He really has the facile brilliance of an Ayn Rand character to the point where I kind of want to kick him in the shins sometimes.

I have no problem with recognizing superiority when I encounter it. I can't think of a time I have so clearly since college, with a couple of my profs. Not all, but a few.

He's always been the "adult" I go to for advice about navigating the parts of the world that perplex me and my family is useless with (which is just about anything regarding practical matters and money and running a biz - these are paycheck people with the exception of my grandfather, who's gone, and had a store he hated having mostly anyway)

So even when I'm on top with him in bed, there's always been this aspect of the rel. I use H for advice too, but the dynamic is different. "Let me use your brain" in one case and more of a mentorship in the other. I eschew Daddy dynamics in favor of these, personally.

 

[omniavincet]

I picked Option One right away, being the kind of guy who likes to have his wife on regular occasions tell him to do this or that. I also feel far more comfy making sure she has the first and last word on most family decisions. It's not that I'm not a leader or perfectly happy making decisions on my own, it's just that I really love her being the top dog.

But then, after reading the whole thread, I realized that what I initially recognized in myself as a need to serve beyond the bedroom may in fact partly be a desire not to have much of a line between bedroom and real world. I'm still thinking here, but I'm not sure there isn't a sexual component to my general preference for her to be in charge. I hate anyone else to tell me what to do even a little bit and usually find ways to be in charge in my work life. So I ask myself - what makes it special with her? I think the answer is that a deep part of my head is *never* really out of the bedroom. Does that make sense?

 

[JMohegan]

Bump...

I just re-read our exchanges on this thread from a year ago, and chuckled once again.

 

[JMohegan]

Like other posters I don't really see Master as 'my superior.' It's a partnership of equals with a mutually beneficial power exchange. He always wins at chess, I kick his ass at scrabble. Neither one of us has a problem with going to the other for help and advice. I wouldn't want somebody who thought I was inferior to him as a person, that would be deeply insulting to me. Just as I accept his leading role in my life I accept the fact that even with a 'superior' sub like me to discuss things with, Master will make a few bad choices that I'll have to live with (without ever doing a 'told you so' dance.)

Thank you for responding, Velvet.

It was interesting to me, a year ago, to read so many negative responses to the idea that a submissive with a need to be guided/shaped/nurtured/led might consider his/her Dominant to be superior in some way.

I was very careful with my wording. I do not believe that "a person who possesses character traits or experiences that are superior to my own" is the same thing as "somebody who thought I was inferior to him as a person."

To be honest, the fact that you (and others) read it as such continues to puzzle me.

 

[JMohegan]

Since Bertrand is wrong and there IS apparently a small clay teapot orbiting the sun, and apparently the bottom I am with is multifaceted and I'm restless and more multifaceted than I'd thought, I can also say that assuredly for *my* relinquishment of control it is a reinforcement of the sexiness of doing what he likes and an enhancement to the fundamentally sexual nature of the liaison. Mostly.

That and the knowledge transfer thing.

As arrogant as this is going to sound, I do think he is one of the few people I've ever met who is smarter than I am about most things. Not some things or particular things, but most. He really has the facile brilliance of an Ayn Rand character to the point where I kind of want to kick him in the shins sometimes.

I have no problem with recognizing superiority when I encounter it. I can't think of a time I have so clearly since college, with a couple of my profs. Not all, but a few.

He's always been the "adult" I go to for advice about navigating the parts of the world that perplex me and my family is useless with (which is just about anything regarding practical matters and money and running a biz - these are paycheck people with the exception of my grandfather, who's gone, and had a store he hated having mostly anyway)

So even when I'm on top with him in bed, there's always been this aspect of the rel. I use H for advice too, but the dynamic is different. "Let me use your brain" in one case and more of a mentorship in the other. I eschew Daddy dynamics in favor of these, personally.

And this is what I expected at least a few people to say in response to my query. Something on the order of: "Of course I recognize superiority in my Dom! Why the heck else would I be so eager for him to guide me in this way?"

I don't have experience with this in the context of a personal relationship, but in a non-sexual context I have deferred to the authority of a few individuals in far more than a "because I have to" kind of a way. Let them mold me, shape me, train me to be the man I have become.

Did I consider them to be superior in some way? Yes, absolutely.

I did, and I still do.

 

[JMohegan]

I picked Option One right away, being the kind of guy who likes to have his wife on regular occasions tell him to do this or that. I also feel far more comfy making sure she has the first and last word on most family decisions. It's not that I'm not a leader or perfectly happy making decisions on my own, it's just that I really love her being the top dog.

But then, after reading the whole thread, I realized that what I initially recognized in myself as a need to serve beyond the bedroom may in fact partly be a desire not to have much of a line between bedroom and real world. I'm still thinking here, but I'm not sure there isn't a sexual component to my general preference for her to be in charge. I hate anyone else to tell me what to do even a little bit and usually find ways to be in charge in my work life. So I ask myself - what makes it special with her? I think the answer is that a deep part of my head is *never* really out of the bedroom. Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense.

Thanks for the response, omniavincet.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Thank you for responding, Velvet.

It was interesting to me, a year ago, to read so many negative responses to the idea that a submissive with a need to be guided/shaped/nurtured/led might consider his/her Dominant to be superior in some way.

I was very careful with my wording. I do not believe that "a person who possesses character traits or experiences that are superior to my own" is the same thing as "somebody who thought I was inferior to him as a person."

To be honest, the fact that you (and others) read it as such continues to puzzle me.

I do see your point but I think that it kind of triggered a knee-jerk disclaimer from me because (like others who have posted) I'm very sensitive about the notion that I want someone to run my life because I think they're more capable than I am. Master does have traits that are superior to mine but that works both ways and in my head they cancel each other out to become a non-issue. It is true that I would find it impossible to submit to someone that I considered intellectually inferior to me but at the same time I have no interest in seeking out somebody who I feel significantly intellectually inferior to.

I suppose I've missed the point of your careful wording but it's not something I've really consciously considered before. I did think it was an odd choice as a category but I guess that's just me.

 

[Netzach]

And this is what I expected at least a few people to say in response to my query. Something on the order of: "Of course I recognize superiority in my Dom! Why the heck else would I be so eager for him to guide me in this way?"

I don't have experience with this in the context of a personal relationship, but in a non-sexual context I have deferred to the authority of a few individuals in far more than a "because I have to" kind of a way. Let them mold me, shape me, train me to be the man I have become.

Did I consider them to be superior in some way? Yes, absolutely.

I did, and I still do.

Yeah. Exactly.

But if a couple of bad asses such as us have mileage with this, maybe the problem is in trying to frame it as a submissive trait per se. Beyond regular social dynamics in which case, I've yet to meet someone who truly answers to no one - most of the alpha men I know still have their own male role models and heroes.

I'm just thinking this might be part of why people are rejecting it strongly.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Inspire me to defer to you in all things and I'm yours.

 

[JMohegan]

I never posted to this thread a year ago; probably because I couldn't quite pin down where I felt I "belonged" given the choices...

If you'd asked me a year ago, and really made me choose... sitting here with all sorts of BDSM theory stubmling about my brain and no actual face to face experience, I'd have said the need to serve was most urgent in me.

But it's been a year, and I've had some face to face adventures added to all that thinkthinkthinking I tend to do, along with talking with multiple gentleman [potential lovers] trying to sort out how I see myself/what I bring to the table... and today I can honestly say I must have/need both option 1 and option 2; one without the other leaves me feeling a bit lost and incomplete.

I am quite capable of "running my own world"; I am quite capable of setting my own course/improving myself. I am more likely to excell at both, with the right man encouraging me, occasionally making suggestions, and sometimes flat out informing me that I will be doing X (even if I don't want to). It is a partnership in that I always expect my intelligence, talents, etc to be considered when he's making a decision regarding me, but I become the most "whole" me that I am capable of [reaching my greatest potential], when my need to relenquish control, is complimented by the nurturing/mentoring dynamic of being "shaped/guided" by my Lover.

Some days I think I must have the oddest little mind on the planet...

That doesn't sound odd at all to me.

Thanks for the thoughtful response, CM.

 

[JMohegan]

I do see your point but I think that it kind of triggered a knee-jerk disclaimer from me because (like others who have posted) I'm very sensitive about the notion that I want someone to run my life because I think they're more capable than I am. Master does have traits that are superior to mine but that works both ways and in my head they cancel each other out to become a non-issue. It is true that I would find it impossible to submit to someone that I considered intellectually inferior to me but at the same time I have no interest in seeking out somebody who I feel significantly intellectually inferior to.

I suppose I've missed the point of your careful wording but it's not something I've really consciously considered before. I did think it was an odd choice as a category but I guess that's just me.

No, it's not just you! Lots of submissives feel the very same way.

 

[JMohegan]

Yeah. Exactly.

But if a couple of bad asses such as us have mileage with this, maybe the problem is in trying to frame it as a submissive trait per se. Beyond regular social dynamics in which case, I've yet to meet someone who truly answers to no one - most of the alpha men I know still have their own male role models and heroes.

I'm just thinking this might be part of why people are rejecting it strongly.

I'm running out of time and heading out the door to catch a plane in a moment.

But I just want to say that I consider the specific type of deference we're discussing here to be one type of submissive behavior, but NOT behavior that is unique to those who ID as submissive overall.

If that's what you're trying to say, then I agree with you. If not, then I'll have to give this more thought when I return in a couple of days.

 

[omniavincet]

I do see your point but I think that it kind of triggered a knee-jerk disclaimer from me because (like others who have posted) I'm very sensitive about the notion that I want someone to run my life because I think they're more capable than I am.

I second this knee-jerk reaction. This is an interesting gray area to me. My sub self seeks a dominant for sexual reasons, but my whole self isn't submissive, or beta, or whatever other label you pick. This distinction is utterly lost on less sensitive doms out there and explains why many subs feel the need to qualify these sorts of discussions.

At the same time, however, I can understand how people would make the assumption because many subs do seem to also have a more general desire/need for guidance. I think of the movie Hannah and Her Sisters when I think of this - a woman who finds the guidance of an older and wiser man extremely comforting, possibly helping her through a transition in life. To me that doesn't seem to necessarily have anything to do with sexual submissiveness, though I'm open to the possibilty that it's correlated. Or maybe since that's just not me I'm out to lunch on that point and they're totally connected for other people.

 

[Netzach]

I'm running out of time and heading out the door to catch a plane in a moment.

But I just want to say that I consider the specific type of deference we're discussing here to be one type of submissive behavior, but NOT behavior that is unique to those who ID as submissive overall.

If that's what you're trying to say, then I agree with you. If not, then I'll have to give this more thought when I return in a couple of days.

I think we're on the same page. Safe travels.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I second this knee-jerk reaction. This is an interesting gray area to me. My sub self seeks a dominant for sexual reasons, but my whole self isn't submissive, or beta, or whatever other label you pick. This distinction is utterly lost on less sensitive doms out there and explains why many subs feel the need to qualify these sorts of discussions.

I know that here on the forum I'm in mostly understanding company but the number of people generally who have challenged my kink as weird and unhealthy behaviour over the past year or so is quite significant. I've had snotty pms when I've dared to post outside the BDSM forums with 'sub' stamped all over my av and sig.

People have said things like;

you're being abused by your partner, you poor dumb thing
you've been brainwashed
you must have been abused as a child, admit it
you're satanic
you're creating chauvinist, wife beaters
if you ever have kids you sick bitch I hope they get taken away
you just want someone to be in control because you're weak, dumb and lazy
you're pissing off god and therefore going straight to hell

It makes one a little defensive over time, admittedly not always in the right direction. There are so many lurkers on the boards I always feel like I have to make my point so that no dumbass is going to get the wrong end of the stick and start making a voodoo doll of me. One derranged woman even spammed my pm box with bible verses so that nobody else could pm me. It was 5 days before she gave up. All the raging fire and brimstone only served to alienate me further from organised religon so what kind of favour she thought she was doing god on my behalf I'll never know.

I don't treat Master as my superior in everything because we both know that he isn't. Obviously we chose each other carefully and are compatible both romantically and sexually. I have the greatest devotion and respect for him and stand by my decision to defer to his dominance without complaint (ahem... so far anyway.) So I guess that's why JMohegan's reference to choosing someone with superior character traits didn't really compute with me. That's not to say it doesn't ring true with others of course.

Oh dammit I'm rambling now. I'm gonna stop before my foot gets any closer to my mouth.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Safe travels.

Seconded FWIW hope you're going somewhere nice JM

 

[Netzach]

I know that here on the forum I'm in mostly understanding company but the number of people generally who have challenged my kink as weird and unhealthy behaviour over the past year or so is quite significant. I've had snotty pms when I've dared to post outside the BDSM forums with 'sub' stamped all over my av and sig.

People have said things like;

you're being abused by your partner, you poor dumb thing
you've been brainwashed
you must have been abused as a child, admit it
you're satanic
you're creating chauvinist, wife beaters
if you ever have kids you sick bitch I hope they get taken away
you just want someone to be in control because you're weak, dumb and lazy
you're pissing off god and therefore going straight to hell

It makes one a little defensive over time, admittedly not always in the right direction. There are so many lurkers on the boards I always feel like I have to make my point so that no dumbass is going to get the wrong end of the stick and start making a voodoo doll of me. One derranged woman even spammed my pm box with bible verses so that nobody else could pm me. It was 5 days before she gave up. All the raging fire and brimstone only served to alienate me further from organised religon so what kind of favour she thought she was doing god on my behalf I'll never know.

I don't treat Master as my superior in everything because we both know that he isn't. Obviously we chose each other carefully and are compatible both romantically and sexually. I have the greatest devotion and respect for him and stand by my decision to defer to his dominance without complaint (ahem... so far anyway.) So I guess that's why JMohegan's reference to choosing someone with superior character traits didn't really compute with me. That's not to say it doesn't ring true with others of course.

Oh dammit I'm rambling now. I'm gonna stop before my foot gets any closer to my mouth.

I can't say I share this experience. I don't think it's because I'm a top, I think it's because I choose to discuss SM with people who have a clue and avoid the topic with unknown quantities and people with whom the battle is pointless, and I don't put it out there.

People are going to believe the worst about me if they want, and there's nothing I say in defense of my own mental health or good intentions that's going to change those minds, and frankly it's their right to be pissed off and freaked out and small minded with nothing better to live for than to spam inboxes if that's their choice in life.

I just feel sorry for them.