Why do you cede or accept control outside the bedroom?

[shy slave]

You know, you're adorable when you're desperate.

If I were the Viking, I'd put you in this state as often as possible.

But not adorable enough to be able to get my own way

*sigh, grumble, sigh*

As for the gym, I went today and my legs are now on fire

God, I am getting good at whining

 

[cati]

Second, maintenance of health and physical form is an area over which I myself insist on maintaining control. Most often, this control is very much big picture. But if I thought a partner needed to get her ass to the gym - guess what? She'd be getting her ass to the gym.

This is *exactly* the type of issue on which I don't want to put up with whining, excuses, complaints, avoidance, procrastination, or any other backtalk, pushback, or bullshit.


I think I misunderstood your post JM, in that I missed the point of your telling her to go to the gym vs. her reluctance to go for her own reasons.... refusing a direct request would just not be a "happening thing" with you... I certainly see that. Umm I've joined a gym just two weeks ago and haven't gone yet. Procrastination? maybe, but somehow it's more of my needing a reason to go...a reason that goes beyond just looking good and wanting to be physically healthy for "me". It may sound stupid but I need to be looking good for someone else as well. No need to comment, I'm just going to sit back, relax and see where this thread leads.

 

[A Desert Rose]

As ADR said categorising BDSM is dangerous waters, there are so many shades of grey, but nevertheless I am the lone voice who likes loosely shaped labels....

And, as you and I have discussed before, no one has ever attacked you for doing so, shy.

... As for burning in effigy.... hmmm. It isn't really my style. But just to be technically correct, I'll point out that physical presence isn't necessary for such a thing. See effigy.

Oh believe me, if there ever was a Lit-together for bdsm folk, I would not be invited, so therefore, not physically present for an effigy burning.

I don't see this as an attempt to label, but rather a comparison of needs.

You may not view this as labeling or catagorizing different people (in this case submissives) but I can assure you, that there are many others here who would view it as such, especially coming from me.

I have no problem catagorizing who I am and have done so many times. I have no trouble catagorizing people who have already done so; catalina for instance, as she has said numerous times that she is a slave. But I won't do a general broad brush labeling thing. My skin is too thin for the responses I would get.

... I definitely do need a partner who respects and trusts me, but I don't necessarily need someone who views me as possessing character traits or experiences that are superior to her own.

I'm not interested in anyone who thinks they are superior to me. Men (or anyone else, for that matter) who possess character traits that I admire and respect are the people I seek out for relationships - friendship and romantic ones, alike.

 

[neonflux]

I am coming to reconsider my own initial response to this question. I suspect that, just as the gay/lesbian communities used to view bisexuals as either fence sitters or people who just couldn't admit to their true nature, some folks in the BDSM community view switches as people who either don't know their own minds yet or are "dabblers." (Apologize if this is not the case.) Just as I am smack dab in the middle of the Kinsey scale I am so much a switch that the idea of permanently ceding control to someone else just doesn't fit my nature. (Of course, there is always give and take in any relationship, whether of a familial, platonic or sexual nature.)

However, I recently met a queer couple in a 24/7 relationship in which both individuals are switch (they live in the same apartment building but not the same apartment). They "switch" roles on a monthly basis (when it comes to the role they take in public community events like the Folsom Street Fair, they flip a coin, LOL). The arrangement works very well for them in that they can meet their mutual desires for service and being served, for Dominance and submission, for Sadism and masochism all within the same relationship.

I am learning as I understand myself better that I deeply value and take pleasure in both D and s, and S and m. I also enjoy both serving and being served (have not always been so amenable as I am now to sometimes following orders but have never had trouble giving them, LOL). After meeting this couple, if I ever were to fall in love with a woman who was also switch, I think now that this is the type of relationship I'd hope to establish. The operative word phrase here is "fall in love." I don't think I'd want to establish a D/s relationship without it having this level of commitment.

*sigh* Neon

 

[Netzach]

Yesterday lying around in bed with my bull, we had a dialogue on the sheer hubris of the "I simply know her better than she knows herself and I'm just here to show her all she can do/be" crowd. He'd gone to the munch the night before and obviously was treated to a bit of this rhetoric.

"It's so..."

"Maddening? Offensive?"

"Yeah."

"Mhm."I told him. "I'd hardly accept it from my shrink, I'm certainly not going to accept it from a fuck." "Although," I said fluffing his ample chest hair "you know, you don't get all offended if I say things like that to you. Last week you were telling me about yelling at your staff and I told you to shut up and lie down because you needed my fingers in your ass, clearly."

"Yeah, but we've known each other seven years, not thirty seconds"

"True."

 

[Netzach]

However, I recently met a queer couple in a 24/7 relationship in which both individuals are switch (they live in the same apartment building but not the same apartment). They "switch" roles on a monthly basis (when it comes to the role they take in public community events like the Folsom Street Fair, they flip a coin, LOL). The arrangement works very well for them in that they can meet their mutual desires for service and being served, for Dominance and submission, for Sadism and masochism all within the same relationship.

This was the paragon and ne plus ultra for me at one point, of rels. I admire the commitment to *having your head there* that this takes. I mean seriously, no matter how flexy you are, it's a superhuman act to put that head on when your month is up and stay with the program.

My ID as a Dominant is an outcropping of a "taking turns" relationship that went a few weeks too long with me on top and never really recovered. If I wanted to bottom to him at this point, I believe the only way it could happen would be with a direct request - this isn't switching, I woke up and realized.

I'm not throwing this out as a "there are no real bisexuals" kind of point, some people stay happily wedged in the middle for all eternity. I don't know how, and I wish I could, but nope.

I never rule anything out, it's *possible* that I find the right woman (almost def. woman) to enslave me, it's *possible* that the bottom I would switch with actually develops Dom desires, it's *possible* that there is a small clay teapot orbiting the sun that we can't see -- but like Bertrand Russel, I'm not going to bank everything on that, so Dominant fits.

 

[neonflux]

Thank you for this story... Isn't life interesting? It really is about the journey, isn't it? (Sometimes cliches are apt...) Of course, all of this is hypothetical in my case. Even to be able to consider such an alternative, I need to find a grrl first. Wish me luck at the start of November

This was the paragon and ne plus ultra for me at one point, of rels. I admire the commitment to *having your head there* that this takes. I mean seriously, no matter how flexy you are, it's a superhuman act to put that head on when your month is up and stay with the program.

My ID as a Dominant is an outcropping of a "taking turns" relationship that went a few weeks too long with me on top and never really recovered. If I wanted to bottom to him at this point, I believe the only way it could happen would be with a direct request - this isn't switching, I woke up and realized.

I'm not throwing this out as a "there are no real bisexuals" kind of point, some people stay happily wedged in the middle for all eternity. I don't know how, and I wish I could, but nope.

I never rule anything out, it's *possible* that I find the right woman (almost def. woman) to enslave me, it's *possible* that the bottom I would switch with actually develops Dom desires, it's *possible* that there is a small clay teapot orbiting the sun that we can't see -- but like Bertrand Russel, I'm not going to bank everything on that, so Dominant fits.

 

[saw_man1]

but nevertheless I am the lone voice who likes loosely shaped lapels.

You're wrong Shy.

I also like loose lapels. They make for great handles to grab and allow me to easily manhandle my victim/partner.

You’re not alone Shy. There are people here just as kinky as you.

 

[shy slave]

You're wrong Shy.

I also like loose lapels. They make for great handles to grab and allow me to easily manhandle my victim/partner.

You’re not alone Shy. There are people here just as kinky as you.

ROFL!!!!

Bloody Doms.

I actually scrolled back to check I had spelt in 'LABELS!!!'

As for people being out there who are just as kinky as me, are you sure about that??

 

[BeachGurl2]

One thing that I notice about your response is the absence of a reason implying a need for a partner who is superior to you in some way. Contrast this with comments one often hears from submissives who say they seek the wisdom and maturity that a Dom's guidance provides, or submissives who express a need for something like character improvement to be achieved through a Dom's control.

I see a clear difference between saying:

1 - I have a non-bedroom need to cede control, but will only relinquish it to a person whom I respect, trust, etc.

vs.

2 - I have a non-bedroom need to be guided/shaped/etc. by a person who possesses character traits or experiences that are superior to my own.

I wonder if you see these as different, and whether you perceive (as I do) that submissives generally tend to fall in one or the other of these groups? (That is a question addressed not just to you, Shy, but to anyone who would like to answer.)

I agree that there is a huge difference between numbers 1 and 2 above. For me, I don't categorize anyone as having something 'superior' to me, no matter the context. They may be different, but not necessarily superior. In fact, I often wonder, when I see people - Doms and subs alike - with the viewpoint listed under #2, what happens when the Dom teaches the sub all there is to learn about that level of experience or trait? Does the sub leave the Dom and move on to another who has even greater experience/traits? For me, it's about strength of character. It's about the trust and respect that develops and exists between me and my Dom. Sometimes, he's going to be more knowledgeable than I am. And sometimes, I'm just going to be more knowledgeable than he is. If his ego needs to be fed by his being superior to me, then I'm not the right sub for him.

Point taken about the difference between want and need.

When I say that I need control in a personal relationship, what I really mean is that I need control in order to be happy in the same.

I agree with that statement as well. In order to be truly happy, I need to cede control in pretty much all aspects of my life. Unfortunately, I haven't found someone strong enough to accept that level of control. But I have no doubt that I ultimately will.

 

[rbijon]

Are you flirting with me, sir?

a Flirt for a Flirt....I am flirt foder to any Sexy Woman

 

[SpectreT]

<snip>

However, I recently met a queer couple in a 24/7 relationship in which both individuals are switch (they live in the same apartment building but not the same apartment). They "switch" roles on a monthly basis (when it comes to the role they take in public community events like the Folsom Street Fair, they flip a coin, LOL). The arrangement works very well for them in that they can meet their mutual desires for service and being served, for Dominance and submission, for Sadism and masochism all within the same relationship.

<snip>

That is just amazing. The kind of discipline to just "flip" like that, on a schedule. I don't know if I could pull that off. I'd need to feel the change, I think, rather than simply decide to make it. But this definintely is pretty cool.

Also, I wanted to revisit this little nugget of mine from earlier in the thread:

<snip>

When I mentioned “springing a surprise on me”, I’m discussing a purely hypothetical situation, where, for example, “in the bedroom”, I’m perfectly fine with getting dressed up in a silly french maid costume, tied up and buttfucked silly. Then they expect me to do their windows as long as I'm dressed like that, even though nobody discussed domestic duties beforehand. That’s when they’d be informed they could get bent. (and a clear example of why I don’t believe in “implied consent” - heck, I’m in a maid costume, doesn’t that imply maid duties?)

<snip>

I've had plenty of time to think about this off-the-cuff remark of mine, and some time to examine myself. "It ain't necessarily so," to quote an old song. Depends on the person and my mood, but this specific example, I now believe it's more likely I'd just grin and say "fuck it." to myself, and start cleaning windows. The change in thought came when I realized the people whose controlling style pisses me off like that wouldn't have a hope in hell of being in a relationship with me anyway.

Mind you, I wouldn't be doing those windows solely because they told me to, either. I'd be doing it because it amuses me, as well. I'll try to find an example of something I'd only do because someone told me to. I think the only example I'll find is the office cleaning, though. I'm pretty sure I'd come up with my own reasons to follow any other orders I might get, beyond just following orders.

I don't think there's a poll sample for, "Because it amuses me to do so." So, while I mostly stand by my "Bedroom only" example, I'm flexible, and consider this my write-in ballot.

 

[JMohegan]

Yesterday lying around in bed with my bull, we had a dialogue on the sheer hubris of the "I simply know her better than she knows herself and I'm just here to show her all she can do/be" crowd. He'd gone to the munch the night before and obviously was treated to a bit of this rhetoric.

"It's so..."

"Maddening? Offensive?"

"Yeah."

"Mhm."I told him. "I'd hardly accept it from my shrink, I'm certainly not going to accept it from a fuck." "Although," I said fluffing his ample chest hair "you know, you don't get all offended if I say things like that to you. Last week you were telling me about yelling at your staff and I told you to shut up and lie down because you needed my fingers in your ass, clearly."

"Yeah, but we've known each other seven years, not thirty seconds"

"True."

Ha! This is a great post.

There's a whole hell of a lot of lifestyle stuff that seems absurd if practiced in the short term, but understandable & valid over the long haul.

With regard to helping a partner be all he/she can be, for me this actually becomes a mutual thing in a long term relationship.

Not that anybody's gonna be telling me to "shut up and lie down", but there are ways to communicate the same general idea appropriately from the submissive side of the partnership.

 

[JMohegan]

I am coming to reconsider my own initial response to this question. I suspect that, just as the gay/lesbian communities used to view bisexuals as either fence sitters or people who just couldn't admit to their true nature, some folks in the BDSM community view switches as people who either don't know their own minds yet or are "dabblers." (Apologize if this is not the case.) Just as I am smack dab in the middle of the Kinsey scale I am so much a switch that the idea of permanently ceding control to someone else just doesn't fit my nature. (Of course, there is always give and take in any relationship, whether of a familial, platonic or sexual nature.)

However, I recently met a queer couple in a 24/7 relationship in which both individuals are switch (they live in the same apartment building but not the same apartment). They "switch" roles on a monthly basis (when it comes to the role they take in public community events like the Folsom Street Fair, they flip a coin, LOL). The arrangement works very well for them in that they can meet their mutual desires for service and being served, for Dominance and submission, for Sadism and masochism all within the same relationship.

I am learning as I understand myself better that I deeply value and take pleasure in both D and s, and S and m. I also enjoy both serving and being served (have not always been so amenable as I am now to sometimes following orders but have never had trouble giving them, LOL). After meeting this couple, if I ever were to fall in love with a woman who was also switch, I think now that this is the type of relationship I'd hope to establish. The operative word phrase here is "fall in love." I don't think I'd want to establish a D/s relationship without it having this level of commitment.

*sigh* Neon

Thanks for this post, Neon. I'll join Netzach and SpectreT in saying - that couple sounds amazing.

As for the "operative word phrase" being "fall in love" - for me, I agree. Though I have known many people participating in happy & satisfying D/s relationships without love/romance, I have never been one of them.

 

[JMohegan]

I agree that there is a huge difference between numbers 1 and 2 above. For me, I don't categorize anyone as having something 'superior' to me, no matter the context. They may be different, but not necessarily superior. In fact, I often wonder, when I see people - Doms and subs alike - with the viewpoint listed under #2, what happens when the Dom teaches the sub all there is to learn about that level of experience or trait? Does the sub leave the Dom and move on to another who has even greater experience/traits? For me, it's about strength of character. It's about the trust and respect that develops and exists between me and my Dom. Sometimes, he's going to be more knowledgeable than I am. And sometimes, I'm just going to be more knowledgeable than he is. If his ego needs to be fed by his being superior to me, then I'm not the right sub for him.

Since the 1 & 2 under discussion were presented a few pages back, I'll repost them here:

1 - I have a non-bedroom need to cede control, but will only relinquish it to a person whom I respect, trust, etc.

vs.

2 - I have a non-bedroom need to be guided/shaped/etc. by a person who possesses character traits or experiences that are superior to my own.

I can certainly understand your perspective on this, BeachGurl.

However, I can also see how or why people on both sides of the coin might identify with # 2. I have met couples in which the submissive expresses a need for greater wisdom and maturity in her partner. Often Daddy Doms and their girls say things like this, for example, and I have seen some very successful relationships built on this dynamic.

Beyond that, I can relate to the "greater experience" aspect of # 2 because of my own needs and desires in the bedroom. While I pick # 1 as it relates to control outside the bedroom, when it comes to physical activity I have a very strong preference for # 2.

I like to teach and initiate, and I have never had the problem you describe above - running out of things to teach. Sure, in the beginning, the things to be taught might seem more obvious. But creativity and imagination go a long way in expanding the learning process, and I would assume that the same thing would hold true in the non-bedroom sphere as well.

 

[neonflux]

That is just amazing. The kind of discipline to just "flip" like that, on a schedule. I don't know if I could pull that off. I'd need to feel the change, I think, rather than simply decide to make it. But this definintely is pretty cool.

This was the paragon and ne plus ultra for me at one point, of rels. I admire the commitment to *having your head there* that this takes. I mean seriously, no matter how flexy you are, it's a superhuman act to put that head on when your month is up and stay with the program.

Thanks for this post, Neon. I'll join Netzach and SpectreT in saying - that couple sounds amazing.

After reading your posts, this does seem like an amazing couple. I know they've been doing this for over a year. And they both seem to thrive on the arrangement. In your case Netzach???, was the change due in part that you both found you leaned in "different" but compatable directions and that this is why the relationship eventually settled the way that it did?

I have to say that I certainly don't know what the future might bring, but I would be happy if it brought me what this couple has... it is certainly something that I would work towards maintaining and nurturing.

I've had plenty of time to think about this off-the-cuff remark of mine, and some time to examine myself. "It ain't necessarily so," to quote an old song. Depends on the person and my mood, but this specific example, I now believe it's more likely I'd just grin and say "fuck it." to myself, and start cleaning windows. The change in thought came when I realized the people whose controlling style pisses me off like that wouldn't have a hope in hell of being in a relationship with me anyway.

Mind you, I wouldn't be doing those windows solely because they told me to, either. I'd be doing it because it amuses me, as well. I'll try to find an example of something I'd only do because someone told me to. I think the only example I'll find is the office cleaning, though. I'm pretty sure I'd come up with my own reasons to follow any other orders I might get, beyond just following orders.

I don't think there's a poll sample for, "Because it amuses me to do so." So, while I mostly stand by my "Bedroom only" example, I'm flexible, and consider this my write-in ballot.

This truly had me LOL because I identify with it in many ways...

As for the "operative word phrase" being "fall in love" - for me, I agree. Though I have known many people participating in happy & satisfying D/s relationships without love/romance, I have never been one of them.

I know that many people can play with someone that they're not close to. While I don't have to be in love with someone to play, I certainly need to like and respect them and have a relationship with them outside of that - the intimacy that results for me is too great to be able to share it otherwise. When I was younger and wild (before any formal involvement in BDSM), I could definitely have sex without loving the person (respect was still important). As I've gotten older, sex without commitment no longer has any appeal for me. When it comes to a D/s relationship and the extreme investment it entails, I also cannot imagine establishing this with anyone I wasn't in love with...

 

[JMohegan]

I'm not interested in anyone who thinks they are superior to me. Men (or anyone else, for that matter) who possess character traits that I admire and respect are the people I seek out for relationships - friendship and romantic ones, alike.

This provides a perfect segue to something that I always find interesting to discuss.

The old Lord Acton quote is: "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

In the beginning, I found it very hard as a Dominant to keep things in perspective. There's something about having a partner who drops to her knees at your command, seems to spend every free moment thinking up ways to please you, basically asks "how high?" every time you say "Jump", and looks up at you with that adoring expression bordering on hero worship, that can make you lose perspective very quickly.

And even if you don't start out thinking of yourself as superior, it's hard to sustain your original attitude when the dynamic *seems* to suggest otherwise.

My buddies and I decided a long time ago to meet regularly for a reality check of sorts. The point is essentially to slap each other upside the head if we are getting too full of ourselves, laugh at the times we've goofed up, and generally remind each other that we are men, not gods.

I wonder if anyone here has experienced this problem (in themselves or a partner), and what you do to counteract it?

 

[JMohegan]

I don't think there's a poll sample for, "Because it amuses me to do so." So, while I mostly stand by my "Bedroom only" example, I'm flexible, and consider this my write-in ballot.

I would add this option, if the software let me. As it is, please consider it successfully "written in".

 

[BeachGurl2]

I can certainly understand your perspective on this, BeachGurl.

However, I can also see how or why people on both sides of the coin might identify with # 2. I have met couples in which the submissive expresses a need for greater wisdom and maturity in her partner. Often Daddy Doms and their girls say things like this, for example, and I have seen some very successful relationships built on this dynamic.

Beyond that, I can relate to the "greater experience" aspect of # 2 because of my own needs and desires in the bedroom. While I pick # 1 as it relates to control outside the bedroom, when it comes to physical activity I have a very strong preference for # 2.

I like to teach and initiate, and I have never had the problem you describe above - running out of things to teach. Sure, in the beginning, the things to be taught might seem more obvious. But creativity and imagination go a long way in expanding the learning process, and I would assume that the same thing would hold true in the non-bedroom sphere as well.

I think, J, that there is a bit of a difference between a desire to teach and initiate, and the need to be superior in experience/intellect/whatever - I'm talking non-bedroom here, the bedroom part of things is much more black and white to me. Part of my biggest problem in finding the 'right' relationship is that I have an above-average intelligence level (I've been called a '3 percenter'), and I am constantly seeking knowledge. It is difficult for me to respect someone who 'fakes' intellect/experience. It doesn't take long before the respect I might have for someone drops a bit as they fake it through something they believe they are teaching me - I would much rather see someone admit they lack the knowledge than to fake their way through it. So it has been difficult for me to find someone with whom I'm compatible, which is frustrating.

As a submissive, there is a very large part of me that wants to find someone much more intelligent than I am. But I'm also realistic enough to know that just because I find someone more intelligent than I am doesn't mean we'll be compatible. Men tend to either be intimidated by me, they want to 'break' me, or they want to exploit me. I actually had a Dom who, even after I told him that I didn't like gambling, bought a book about counting cards in multiple deck black jack because I have a photographic memory. Guess how long that relationship lasted.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this. For me, while I may want to find someone who can teach me, I also hope that he won't be intimidated by those times when I may know more than he does about a subject. In another relationship, my Dom had such a need to be more knowledgeable that he would actually search out topics he thought I couldn't possibly know about to test me. He would strike up a 'conversation' about some topic to demonstrate his knowledge. In the normal give and take of conversation, I would respond with some tidbit of information about the topic. He would react by accusing me of trying to one-up him, which wasn't at all what I was trying to do - I thought we were having a dialogue rather than a monologue. I quickly learned that it was better to just nod my head and let him lecture me on the topic and pretend that I had no knowledge. When I realized that I was allowing him to browbeat me into becoming his doormat, I walked.

What I am interested in is someone who may have more knowledge than I do in some things, or even all things, but who respects my intelligence enough to have real give and take discussions rather than one-sided lectures. I haven't found that yet, but I haven't given up hope. In the meantime, I've stopped trying to create relationships that I know have no chance of success. In fact, for the moment, I've even stopped looking.

As far as bedroom activities go, I would much rather have a Dom who had significantly more experience than I do. As far as I'm concerned, in the bedroom, I have much to learn and always will, and I want someone who is willing to teach me.

I guess my earlier point was this: if the pair are together BECAUSE he is superior to her and his goal is to teach her what he knows, it makes the relationship sound finite. At some point, it seems, she will outgrown him. Unless they get to a point where they learn together. It has been my experience with people in general that when they believe they are 'superior', whether they truly are or they aren't, they are not the kind of people who believe they have something to learn.

I'm sure that some people reading this may think that's a contradiction coming from someone who just stated that she was a 3 percenter. I don't believe it is for this specific reason: I know that I have a lot of knowledge about a lot of things, however, I also know that every person I meet has more knowledge than I about something. I know that I have something to learn from everyone I meet. For that reason alone, there is no one out there to whom I am superior. But the flip side of that is that there is no one out there who is superior to me. And now some people are saying, 'then you're not really a sub'. Well, whatever you want to believe is fine with me. In my opinion, there is a difference between a power exchange and superiority. Could just be my own definition of 'superior'.

Did I explain my thoughts better or did I just muddy the waters more?

 

[BiBunny]

I think, J, that there is a bit of a difference between a desire to teach and initiate, and the need to be superior in experience/intellect/whatever - I'm talking non-bedroom here, the bedroom part of things is much more black and white to me. Part of my biggest problem in finding the 'right' relationship is that I have an above-average intelligence level (I've been called a '3 percenter'), and I am constantly seeking knowledge. It is difficult for me to respect someone who 'fakes' intellect/experience. It doesn't take long before the respect I might have for someone drops a bit as they fake it through something they believe they are teaching me - I would much rather see someone admit they lack the knowledge than to fake their way through it. So it has been difficult for me to find someone with whom I'm compatible, which is frustrating.

As a submissive, there is a very large part of me that wants to find someone much more intelligent than I am. But I'm also realistic enough to know that just because I find someone more intelligent than I am doesn't mean we'll be compatible. Men tend to either be intimidated by me, they want to 'break' me, or they want to exploit me. I actually had a Dom who, even after I told him that I didn't like gambling, bought a book about counting cards in multiple deck black jack because I have a photographic memory. Guess how long that relationship lasted.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this. For me, while I may want to find someone who can teach me, I also hope that he won't be intimidated by those times when I may know more than he does about a subject. In another relationship, my Dom had such a need to be more knowledgeable that he would actually search out topics he thought I couldn't possibly know about to test me. He would strike up a 'conversation' about some topic to demonstrate his knowledge. In the normal give and take of conversation, I would respond with some tidbit of information about the topic. He would react by accusing me of trying to one-up him, which wasn't at all what I was trying to do - I thought we were having a dialogue rather than a monologue. I quickly learned that it was better to just nod my head and let him lecture me on the topic and pretend that I had no knowledge. When I realized that I was allowing him to browbeat me into becoming his doormat, I walked.

What I am interested in is someone who may have more knowledge than I do in some things, or even all things, but who respects my intelligence enough to have real give and take discussions rather than one-sided lectures. I haven't found that yet, but I haven't given up hope. In the meantime, I've stopped trying to create relationships that I know have no chance of success. In fact, for the moment, I've even stopped looking.

As far as bedroom activities go, I would much rather have a Dom who had significantly more experience than I do. As far as I'm concerned, in the bedroom, I have much to learn and always will, and I want someone who is willing to teach me.

I guess my earlier point was this: if the pair are together BECAUSE he is superior to her and his goal is to teach her what he knows, it makes the relationship sound finite. At some point, it seems, she will outgrown him. Unless they get to a point where they learn together. It has been my experience with people in general that when they believe they are 'superior', whether they truly are or they aren't, they are not the kind of people who believe they have something to learn.

I'm sure that some people reading this may think that's a contradiction coming from someone who just stated that she was a 3 percenter. I don't believe it is for this specific reason: I know that I have a lot of knowledge about a lot of things, however, I also know that every person I meet has more knowledge than I about something. I know that I have something to learn from everyone I meet. For that reason alone, there is no one out there to whom I am superior. But the flip side of that is that there is no one out there who is superior to me. And now some people are saying, 'then you're not really a sub'. Well, whatever you want to believe is fine with me. In my opinion, there is a difference between a power exchange and superiority. Could just be my own definition of 'superior'.

Did I explain my thoughts better or did I just muddy the waters more?

I know this wasn't actually directed at me, but you could've taken the words right out of my mouth, the bolded parts in particular. God, I hope this doesn't sound conceited to the extreme. It is the rare man who is not intimidated by me. Even those that pretend they aren't are almost always in some kind of game to "prove" that they know more about something than I do. This happens even when the man in question I believe is smarter than me. To me, it suggests a level of immaturity. I mean, how childish can you possibly be that you have to always engage in a game of one-up-manship with your partner (which I never encouraged, by the way) to make yourself feel better?

Now for the "my Dom is perfect" part of this post. I believe that Master is smarter than me. He tells me that he thinks I am smarter than him. In truth, we probably share a very similar level of intelligence, albeit in different ways. He, for example, freely admits that he knows nothing about horses--my passion. He will sit and listen to me talk about horses in general, my horses in particular, and the politics of the Tennessee Walking Horse world with no complaints. He even asks questions to gain a greater understanding about something I enjoy. His eyes may be glazed over by the time I'm finished, but he respects that I know more about horses than he does. (I think I've even got him talked into taking a few riding lessons from me, LOL. We'll see how that goes!) I do the same thing when he talks about things that I know very little about.

When I finally voted in the poll, I picked the "need to serve" option after a lot of thinking. I'd venture to say that Master, too, would pick the same option, only in the "need to be served" form. I think that helping him extend his knowledge is one way I serve him. When he helps me extend my knowledge, he is helping me to better serve him. Both of us appreciate a partner with a sharp mind and a good sense of humor, so I think anything that exerts our brains is a service to the other, IMO.

Did that even come close to making sense?

 

[nymphee]

Now for the "my Dom is perfect" part of this post. I believe that Master is smarter than me. He tells me that he thinks I am smarter than him. In truth, we probably share a very similar level of intelligence, albeit in different ways. He, for example, freely admits that he knows nothing about horses--my passion. He will sit and listen to me talk about horses in general, my horses in particular, and the politics of the Tennessee Walking Horse world with no complaints. He even asks questions to gain a greater understanding about something I enjoy. His eyes may be glazed over by the time I'm finished, but he respects that I know more about horses than he does. (I think I've even got him talked into taking a few riding lessons from me, LOL. We'll see how that goes!) I do the same thing when he talks about things that I know very little about.

I think this is one of the most selfless and important compromises in any relationship, and is not simply an issue in BDSM circles. It is not just a compromise, but it is also, for a Dominant, cedeing a little in a way which would not harm a sexual game and for a submissive, protects one from feeling like your submission is purely sexual. For me, compromising reinforces for me that I am submissive in nature and that it is not just some odd sexual perversion- thus I find it reassuring. (Admittedly in my case, my compromise consists of standing in a field at seven aye emma with a bunch of hearty aristos slaping my bottom and telling Sir what a fine "filly" I am,while holding three dogs in one hand and a brace of pheasants in the other and my Lord takes pot shots at impossibly high birds, but everyone has their compromises.)
He, for his part, tries his hardest to learn to dance (the ballroom is the one domain where he can't control me!)
I think that these times when a dominant partener allows a submissive to be the more knowledgable, or to indulge in their own wishes make it easier to both parties to take or surrender control in the bedroom. At least, that is how it works in my relationship. I don't know if that makes any sense.
Of course, I expect for people who live a 24/7 BDSM lifestyle what I have just said is pure codswallop.

 

[Netzach]

This provides a perfect segue to something that I always find interesting to discuss.

The old Lord Acton quote is: "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

In the beginning, I found it very hard as a Dominant to keep things in perspective. There's something about having a partner who drops to her knees at your command, seems to spend every free moment thinking up ways to please you, basically asks "how high?" every time you say "Jump", and looks up at you with that adoring expression bordering on hero worship, that can make you lose perspective very quickly.

And even if you don't start out thinking of yourself as superior, it's hard to sustain your original attitude when the dynamic *seems* to suggest otherwise.

My buddies and I decided a long time ago to meet regularly for a reality check of sorts. The point is essentially to slap each other upside the head if we are getting too full of ourselves, laugh at the times we've goofed up, and generally remind each other that we are men, not gods.

I wonder if anyone here has experienced this problem (in themselves or a partner), and what you do to counteract it?

Oh, Dom disease.

Well being a pro sure exposes you to it no matter how un-pre-disposed you are to this kind of thinking.

I found the Tao helped, and some amateur astronomy and physics curiosity. Like, keeping it in perspective. Getting sick also re-introduced me to the part of my personality that cries for its mom and feels bad for itself. Yeah, everyone has that, pushed to the limit.

 

[Netzach]

In your case Netzach???, was the change due in part that you both found you leaned in "different" but compatable directions and that this is why the relationship eventually settled the way that it did?

You pretty much got it to a T. We kind of settled into realizations about ourselves and the other and things heated up even more when I wasn't whining "dominate me harder" and just made the control overt and not passive aggressive. He was happier not having one more person to tell what to do.

 

[JMohegan]

Oh, Dom disease.

Well being a pro sure exposes you to it no matter how un-pre-disposed you are to this kind of thinking.

I found the Tao helped, and some amateur astronomy and physics curiosity. Like, keeping it in perspective. Getting sick also re-introduced me to the part of my personality that cries for its mom and feels bad for itself. Yeah, everyone has that, pushed to the limit.

"Pushed to the limit" - yup. Life has a way of humbling everybody. It's just a matter of time.

Never heard it called Dom disease before. I've got a buddy with a thing for acronyms who calls it "AP Syndrome". (AP = arrogant prick)

Substitute Lombardi for astronomy, and you've got the gist of what we talk about.

 

[SpectreT]

Similar, but not exactly the same thing, I occasionally come down with a case of "Cliff Claven Disease".

Because of my many interests, and avid reading, I get bits and pieces of knowledge about nearly anything and everything. Then I open my mouth about what I know, and occasionally turn out to be egregiously full of shit. It's one of the reasons I have issues with humiliation play; I do just fine humiliating myself, thanks. Don't need any help.