Why do you cede or accept control outside the bedroom?

[shy slave]

Just for future reference, any time I ask a question followed by the goofy tongue guy, it means I don't actually expect a serious response.

However, I understood and appreciated what you wrote. That's the second time on this thread that I've been reminded of someone else.

I like that goofy tongue guy!

Or is it I like tongues It is one of those two answers I am sure, perhaps I should check my decision with a Dom before replying lol

AND I am shy, Dammit!!!

 

[JMohegan]

As ADR said categorising BDSM is dangerous waters, there are so many shades of grey, but nevertheless I am the lone voice who likes loosely shaped labels.

I don't see this as an attempt to label, but rather a comparison of needs.

For example, MW wrote in post 4:

I replied that "I have a need to guide/nurture/lead..." I want my pyl to reach her full potential in all areas and I can feel a need to help her to do that.

This need to nurture is not one that I share.

I need to be in control in some areas simply because I hate frequent negotiating, arguing, dealing with objections or resistance when I'm not in the mood, putting up with backtalk, pushback, etc., and without overt control in certain aspects of my personal life, I become irritable, unhappy, and a general pain in the ass.

Those are very different needs, but one no better or worse than the other. And identifying/comparing/discussing needs is the topic of this thread, *not* an attempt to label or rank.

Before giving up control you need to know what the other person deems as 'control.'

Yes, exactly!

And I believe that an important element of this knowledge is understanding *why* the other person wants or needs that control.

For example, I may at times be willing or even eager to nurture a partner in helping her achieve a specific goal, but the fact that guiding/nurturing or teaching outside the bedroom is not a need for me has important implications for the way I express my dominance.

After all that rambling I guess I would say your first option fits into my thinking.
Respect is the key to how I interact with anyone.
Respect for him above all others is what makes the difference as to why I cede control out of the bedroom to him.

Thank you for yet another thoughtful and thorough reply to my question, Shy.

My own response to the question, from the flip side of the coin, would be option 1 as well. That is to say, I definitely do need a partner who respects and trusts me, but I don't necessarily need someone who views me as possessing character traits or experiences that are superior to her own.

 

[JMohegan]

I like that goofy tongue guy!

Or is it I like tongues It is one of those two answers I am sure, perhaps I should check my decision with a Dom before replying lol

AND I am shy, Dammit!!!

Let me know what the Viking says.... And thanks for making me laugh.

 

[shy slave]

Your post (127) has given me something to think about.

Do you think that the reason behind the need to control outside the bedroom reflects in the way that control is administered?

I am not talking about specific rules that relate to how a pyl dresses because you have a particular liking for a a part of the anatomy (for example your neck rule), but in other ways that indicate you don't want discussion or to compromise or because you want to show you have a level of control (in other words 'because they can')?

Those who micro-manage throughout a pyl life, do they have different reasons to those PYL's who oversee, make comments, direct and guide (but with little or no compromise) their pyl?

 

[JMohegan]

Do you think that the reason behind the need to control outside the bedroom reflects in the way that control is administered?

Yes, absolutely. Because control takes effort: planning, explaining what's expected, monitoring compliance, following through with correction or punishment if necessary, etc.

And the extent to which I am willing to expend this effort is directly related to my own wants and needs.

Let's take the example of nurturing/guiding a partner to achieve a specific goal.

If a partner developed a medical need to alter her diet, I would be more than willing to take the time to research the issue and construct & enforce a system by which I controlled her effort to do so.

However, in some other area of self-improvement, I might not be willing to accept control over the process. I might be willing to help, but only in the more traditional ways of offering advice, encouragement, etc.

In contrast, someone with a need to nurture might be delighted to accept responsibility for this type of control across a much broader range of subjects.

Those who micro-manage throughout a pyl life, do they have different reasons to those PYL's who oversee, make comments, direct and guide (but with little or no compromise) their pyl?

I see this as a separate issue.

Within the need to nurture, for example, it seems to me that you might have some Doms who do so with a big picture approach to control, and others who micromanage the process.

The type of control I exert is mostly related to making my life run smoothly. I am a big picture guy, so I might say something like: Here's a general idea of what I like to eat; have dinner on the table every night at 7pm unless the house burns down, your car gets a flat, etc. Another guy with a need for control to make his life run smoothly might provide detailed menus, cooking instructions, protocol for serving, etc. Same general reason behind the need for control, but a different approach to expressing it.

 

[shy slave]

That makes sense as to the differing need to control comes across as using that control in different ways, thank you.

On a lighter note this comment

Let's take the example of nurturing/guiding a partner to achieve a specific goal.

If a partner developed a medical need to alter her diet, I would be more than willing to take the time to research the issue and construct & enforce a system by which I controlled her effort to do so.

However, in some other area of self-improvement, I might not be willing to accept control over the process. I might be willing to help, but only in the more traditional ways of offering advice, encouragement, etc.

Encourages me to beg a favour *bats eyelashes (copyright of KC)*

Could you explain this view to the Viking please? If he follows your thought pattern and brings it into our relationship it would mean he would no longer see the need to make me go to the gym.

Please, please, please???

Does blowing kisses and throwing roses at your feet help?

If so...

Please *begging noises* please?

 

[JMohegan]

Could you explain this view to the Viking please? If he follows your thought pattern and brings it into our relationship it would mean he would no longer see the need to make me go to the gym.

Please, please, please???

Does blowing kisses and throwing roses at your feet help?

If so...

Please *begging noises* please?

Hell no! Are you daft?

First off, I am not in habit of interfering with another Dom's modus operandi.

Second, maintenance of health and physical form is an area over which I myself insist on maintaining control. Most often, this control is very much big picture. But if I thought a partner needed to get her ass to the gym - guess what? She'd be getting her ass to the gym.

This is *exactly* the type of issue on which I don't want to put up with whining, excuses, complaints, avoidance, procrastination, or any other backtalk, pushback, or bullshit.

So stop throwing roses and get your ass to the gym, woman! I hope you see that nice sadistic trainer again, 'cause he sounded like a really big help.

 

[cati]

But if I thought a partner needed to get her ass to the gym - guess what? She'd be getting her ass to the gym.

Mind if I ask JM how exactly would you go about getting her ass in the gym. If your girl decided that gym time was not in the cards that night...whatever her reasons for not wanting to go, what would your reaction be. I know you wouldn't punish her, at least I don't think so. What then? I'm just a wee bit curious.

 

[JMohegan]

Mind if I ask JM how exactly would you go about getting her ass in the gym. If your girl decided that gym time was not in the cards that night...whatever her reasons for not wanting to go, what would your reaction be. I know you wouldn't punish her, at least I don't think so. What then? I'm just a wee bit curious.

I don't establish many rules, and I don't give a lot of orders or commands outside of the bedroom.

But when I do establish rules or give orders, I expect them to be obeyed.

I consider refusal to obey to be a sign of glaring disrespect for both me and my dominance, which would therefore place the entire D/s dynamic (and relationship) in jeopardy.

To me, D/s means control and control means obedience which is *not* optional.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

D/s means control and control means obedience which is *not* optional.

So what happens when your sub disobeys?

 

[JMohegan]

So what happens when your sub disobeys?

That's what the front door is for, Isabella.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

That's what the front door is for, Isabella.

No room for error, then?

 

[JMohegan]

No room for error, then?

Error, yes.

Willful disobedience, no.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Error, yes.

Willful disobedience, no.

So (in the bedroom, at least, I assume) she has to do everything you want her to do, no questions asked?

 

[JMohegan]

So (in the bedroom, at least, I assume) she has to do everything you want her to do, no questions asked?

The subject of this thread is what goes on *outside* the bedroom.

There is a difference between me wanting a partner to do something, and me commanding her to do it.

My previous three posts explain my position on commands.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

The subject of this thread is what goes on *outside* the bedroom.

There is a difference between me wanting a partner to do something, and me commanding her to do it.

My previous three posts explain my position on commands.

Since when does the subject of the thread stop *you* from following another line of thought?

My questions were more rhetorical, than anything else.

You said you don't give many commands out of the bedroom. And when you give commands there is no other option than to obey. And if your sub doesn't, she's shown the door. The logical deduction there would be if you tell her she has to do something in the bedroom, she does it, or shes gone.

 

[JMohegan]

Since when does the subject of the thread stop *you* from following another line of thought?

When I am in the mood to discuss the complex issues involved in bedroom control, I'll visit one of the many threads on the subject, Isabella.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

When I am in the mood to discuss the complex issues involved in bedroom control, I'll visit one of the many threads on the subject, Isabella.

Sounds like a party.

 

[rbijon]

Sounds like a party.

I would love to party with you. I love a good Temptress!

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I would love to party with you. I love a good Temptress!

Are you flirting with me, sir?

 

[shy slave]

Hell no! Are you daft?

Not daft, desperate!

First off, I am not in habit of interfering with another Dom's modus operandi.

Second, maintenance of health and physical form is an area over which I myself insist on maintaining control. Most often, this control is very much big picture. But if I thought a partner needed to get her ass to the gym - guess what? She'd be getting her ass to the gym.

This is *exactly* the type of issue on which I don't want to put up with whining, excuses, complaints, avoidance, procrastination, or any other backtalk, pushback, or bullshit.

So stop throwing roses and get your ass to the gym, woman! I hope you see that nice sadistic trainer again, 'cause he sounded like a really big help.

I hate it when Doms are right

*sulk, whine*

I do a good line in sulk, less good in whine; but I will learn quick lol

Once the Viking sees this no doubt he will just be more clear about my going.

Damn, Damn, Damn.

Sadly you are both right, whilst not hugely overweight I am very unfit and that does need to change.
Once I am actually in the gym it is not so bad, but the the looming thought of going is like waiting for a bad report from school.

Isabella ~ I was teasing JM, not goading him. As for his view about wilful disobedience is exactly the same as the Vikings views. He doesn't have many rules and dictates; which means he really does expect them followed.

I follow them because they are not stupid rules, or rules made to prove he is control of me; but rules to make my overall life better. Even if I hate what is being asked.

For example: he does not deny me orgasms, not when we are together or when I am alone. Lack of orgasms or a build up of frustration does not improve my life one way or the other; being fit enough to walk a reasonable distance and doing weight bearing exercise improves my fitness and helps control a medical issue I have. That means if I fall over anytime it is less likely that bones will break.

Back to ceding control ~ I may not like or enjoy what he demands but I do it, because I do not have my own motivation to do what is best for my body.

 

[cati]

Nods to JM. Somehow I got that feeling even before asking the question.
I suppose you have more than one door? asked respectfully........

 

[JMohegan]

Isabella ~ I was teasing JM, not goading him.

I'm glad you pointed this out, Shy, because it is a useful reminder to me that newcomers or those who have not seen our interaction in the Cafe or other threads might be confused by the tone of that exchange.

To anyone who was confused ~ I knew Shy was teasing, and my response was part playful banter as a result. However, I did take the opportunity to make a point that is relevant to the topic of the thread.

Nods to JM. Somehow I got that feeling even before asking the question.
I suppose you have more than one door? asked respectfully........

I assume you are asking if I would really terminate a relationship just because a partner refused to go to the gym when I told her to. (If I misunderstood the purpose of the question, please let me know.)

The short & honest answer to the question, as I have interpreted it, is: yes, I probably would terminate the relationship. In theory, there could be circumstances or explanations that would prevent me from doing so, but I wouldn't put money on it.

To put this response in perspective, it is important to keep a few things in mind here.

First off, I realize that there are Dominants who seek out and appreciate rebellious or SAMMY partners, but I am not one of them. The type of woman who would be in a relationship with me would have a strong predilection for obedience at the level of big picture control.

Second, by the time I got to the point of offering a D/s relationship to a partner, we would have spent a considerable amount of time getting to know each other's personalities and capabilities, comparing needs, etc. I am not going to accept overt control over a partner in any area of our relationship unless I believe she has *both* the capacity and willingness to obey my commands in that sphere.

Third, there is always a means to discuss objections or problems, and perhaps even adjust expectations in a relationship with me: through respectfully addressed questions and comments, delivered at an appropriate time.

Earlier on the thread, I quoted RJ:

So I think it often happens that a fake type of submission is offered under the guise to be pleasing, when the only type of pleasing the submissive is willing to do is with their own interests in mind. Nothing exposes this type of fake submission faster than to reject such an offer and relpace it with something else like mow my lawn.

As I said before, I think he hit a bullseye with that one.

Perhaps, at the time, I should also have pointed out that I do not give capricious commands. But I do occasionally give an order to do something that a submissive really, really doesn't like.

And the response I expect is exactly this:

I may not like or enjoy what he demands but I do it

Notice in Shy's response that the reason she gives for obeying such a command is her trust in, and respect for, Andante.

That is the entire point, as I see it.

To me, outright refusal to obey a command within the previously agreed upon boundaries of my control conveys profound disrespect and lack of trust. I may not go so far as to declare the person a "fake submissive". But in all likelihood, I would conclude that she was not the right submissive for me.

 

[JMohegan]

Not daft, desperate!

You know, you're adorable when you're desperate.

If I were the Viking, I'd put you in this state as often as possible.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Isabella ~ I was teasing JM, not goading him.

Sorry, didn't catch this earlier!

To be honest, I hadn't read your other post before I asked him what I did. I asked purely because his statement made me curious. So I never thought you were goading him or anything else..